yet you admit we do nothing about it (don't find it and are actually cutting funding during the current administration)...so how is that a culture of it?
Meta, you have no idea what youre talking about. How do we propose we measure who is conscious and who is not? Youre saying medicalizing mental health discourages self-determination, do you have any evidence for that? How does that even apply to this situation?
In any case I dont think it makes a difference. The kid was clearly mentally ill. I dont fully understand what assigning individual blame accomplishes. Obviously for something like this to happen there are serious social breakdowns in practically every arena, and solutions have to be holistic. So whats your point?
The guy who climed the clock tower in Austin and killed 15 people with a sniper rifle was a former Marine. A lot of good Parris Island did for him (except teach him how to shoot accurately).
Secondly, I lived on Parris Island for three years while growing up. A large proportion of my friends' dads were wife-beating borderline sociopaths. I wouldn't hold up Marine Corps discipline as any sort of example for the rest of the country.
Thirdly, you don't know jack shit about mental illness. I suggest sticking to making pretty little blobs at Penn and laying off pontificating about a subject you know nothing about.
If I were to agree with him on one point, it would be that within treatment, there should be a greater emphasis on teaching methods for willful self-control, rather than a total reliance on medication and endless re-diagnosis, but I think things have been moving that way in recent years anyway.
I think the real challenge here is to figure out when and how treatment should be forced upon someone who needs it but is too far gone to see it. Its a terrible question, perhaps there just is no way to treat someone who doesnt want to be treated, but it seems like 24 hours (is it the same in all states?) is not enough time to evaluate and demonstrate to someone that their life can be better. A month maybe in extreme circumstances like this?
I dont think there will be any magic bullet though. Ive been suicidal before, I dont think people can comprehend how isolating that can be. I was lucky to make it through, in the end it was only the love and compassion and persistence of friends and family that really helped.
Both of them felt there could have been much more done earlier that could have more than likely prevented this.
Probation officer means oversight, not discipline. And if you listened closely they added the caveat that it would be particularly helpful if those types of officers for the mentally ill were also trained therapists, as opposed to cops with maybe an associates degree.
more can be done - period. calling people names and stereotyping them literally does nothing to solve anything.
I would love to see the data 10 years after after we implement everything those doctors called for. I think you would see a world of difference...yet, there would still be incidents...but I think there would be less, and that if we as a society chose solutions based on ideas of proactive compassion as opposed to reactive discipline, we would be ni a better place.
".won't just pawn them off on meds and doctors, maybe they'll make an attempt to get to know them a bit more, after all they are biologically related."
Where are the referance, do you raly want to know ???
I spoke with this guy physics student I recall, and he admid that the intire school thing was a hell ; stupid in terms of his expertations , and the social issue the whole thing. From his words I wonder why you hate the individual so much why group and social harasment -- as if you couldn't be without the satisfaction, have driven so many more tallented young people to kill themself , that this in number is making the social inviroment the worse enemy for a guy who is othervise clever enough , to argue a more sense univers than Einstein ?
How many is each year harrased to kill themselv by group harasment ; what do that mean to the level of compution and thiee issues , now do you realy want to know -- as if you claim that , you also say you want to change it, and that is sadly how things are, --- you will not change.
But this guy is not the only one I spoken about these things with, acturly there are a number in each class and to often their life is a hell --- othervise normal students who are harrased by the intire group but who get their life made a hell, becaurse a few, allway's not to bright ones, that master the social issues and need someone to harras ; now this can't be a new thing, and when this obviously are a part of the issue, tell me, how many are driven by bad social games into taking their own life each year ???
Listen I run a support group where so often, it is the same issues , the same old evil , that ruined this or that guy or girls youth. Belive me people with these hurt crowd, and relive just talking to others, in a safe place. And the number of othervise top IQ within the same group somehow frighten me. And it is the same social issues over and over .
Now that mean you can count survivers, people who somehow mentaly survived , being to good focusing on the issue instead of praising the local smartass , not all of them are made hosteage of social isolation and just want to be left alone , --- Many feel this way and doing something about that, an issue we know a lot about, it would be possible to take care of others with maybe mental sickness problems.
"guarentee more people are harrased by social groups and don't kill themselves than vice a versa."
But -- sadly social harasment also mean exactly those responses ; you won't even think about changing it, nomatter the cost are that a growing number acturly take their own life ,rather than take it out on the others, who seriously are to blame.
It's like saying "we know what is wrong , and what to do about it, but we don't like the color of it. My experience is that exactly where some want the group harasment to be justified rather than realising that next time, it will be your sons child who suffer what so easy could be reverted. Fact is that this also undermine the crafts in the whole thing ; academics become dull words and the emporors clotches , while the smart guy handle better, than the one with actural wisdom. Allowing this to continue mean in efficient construction as well as academic as conmans world ; no surprise for me btw.
The first guy I mentioned seriously would love to be able to ponish those who made his life a hell , and classes shuld still be the terratorie of the class bulli ; now only the class bully would have that !
Hooo boy, pulling out the "PC" card as an insult? Is it so important to cling to hate speech in your apparently limited vocabulary of insults. Admitting to having said something offensive, and possibly even apologizing for it (or not, if you are not apologetic) would be an actual example of taking responsibility for your actions and facing the consequences. If you're committed to employing sexist or otherwise bigoted language in your everyday speech, then you've got to accept the fact that people are going to confront you about it from time to time, particularly in a forum targeting an academic/professional audience.
I don't believe jasoncross is not using the word "support" to imply coddling, cuddly, lovey lovey huggy flowers and unconditional forgiveness for all people living with mental problems of varying severity. Sometimes the most "supportive" thing that one can do for a person is to do what you seem to be describing - tell them that they're behaving stupidly, that you're worried, that they need to get help (or offer some advice on how to improve the situation, perhaps.) Tough love. This should NOT be motivated by a desire to "Break" anyone (which sounds pretty sociopathic in itself.)
Kind of agrea , as long as you are comited to go that far that you somewhere understand the basic situation and can keep your own emagination out of it.
But today's schools simply can't support a growing number of valuable individuals already. In the old school and where group works was as important as the individual , there was room for that funny guy with the ticks, today the group willingly sacrify the guy who in the old day's would grow to become the master of things.
Here right Here, it feed your privilige to down any bright guy with something on his mind , look back and see what interest are the greatest, building the actural wonders or becoming feared enough to throw your way to pover ,using this fora as just a playground, look what need there are in mechanic construction towerds advanced mud throwing.
Many years ago a bright guy who could acturly use the computer for other things than mails, develob a brilliant building method , what happen when he announce it --- NO NO don't answer I tell you as HERE I know better than you.
Expleditly the most rotten minds strive out to kill this guy with poison, or mud throwing--- Him is not allowed to think he is someone --- and not one word about what a brilliant new method can bring.
The guy who is best at harassing the guy who happily display his invention are faced an army of all sorts of sick minds --- none of whome have a better suggestion and only a fraction acturly understood the vision but just followed . In my time in this role for you dear students, I learned to reconise the new guy , who just want to credit the fuhrer and therefore harass a little on the clas's bulli's victim ; an honest guy bright and living in copenhagen ,but not allowed his name here, where the robbery of his dredit are also comisioned.
Then credit their efford and belive in a better world, realise that there are need for jobs for caring aswell as jobs in the new industries that today is not wanted as they mean change and thereby change of pover. But if you will not respect others or realise the magnifold how groups harasment can newer be a good thing and there are way's that is not even tried, as the class bully fear good results, then stay with your war against yourself. I been fighting for the credits for the bright guy , openness and sharing for decades , so do not blame me.
"vindust let me break this down for you, i'm going to give you a new perspective...
if one is so brilliant in one area then it is quite possible to become brilliant in another."
Yes
"i've met a couple geniuses in my day who were to proud to become like the rest, to proud to play the social game, which in turn led to them blaming everyone but themselves for their failure."
Sorry to say I see only two situations, either hot air or it was simply to late ; this happen you know, they can only be reached before the hate take over , and only then we can talk about mental illness with all that mean.
"now if you know what they are doing then you know how to do it. the other thing, based on your writing, you actually know more of what they are doing then they do, which will make you better at their game."
Yes again --- but I don't want any part of that game --- I want to give new jobs, a progressive architecture, new tools for better skilled artists than I , to make wonders and a mountain of money, cheap houses everyone can either afford or build themself , houses so strong that they will last. And I only pity old men who try rob the new tallents their daily bread and the develobments only those who know can bring.
"first, admit you lack social skills."
Done --- done already many times.
"second, study social skills like you would study art."
I can't but I make many other crafts, and they would suffer.
"thirdly, study the power and its connection to social skills."
I already know them they are enomous even greater than art.
"fourth, live a little lie, be who you are not, just so that your brilliant work can be properly accredited"
--- I think you failed the whole point "we" can't lie.
"if you understand what i read logically, then begin the battle of mind versus spirit, there is no excuses, unless one is trully metnally ill."
No but that is an exchouse then, and we shuld all do ours to become just a bit better.
Sorry --- but from the start I did tell myself, not to participate ; see the things I facts ,was in the spirit that if something will be done , then some directions are better than others and instead of doing things that wouldn't make any difference or make things worse, ehy not do things that made several other things better just by side effects. The shooter is faced either a real or an emagined social demand so are the funny guy who's only problems are infact just the ticks. Any efford to entlighten and educate will help.
Listen exchouse me, but I leave the discussion here ; I know that it only take this or that much time before someone cruising the web ,want us all to profit from his expert oppinion about anything. This is the right time to go.
Shooting + Murder at VIRGINIA TECH
yet you admit we do nothing about it (don't find it and are actually cutting funding during the current administration)...so how is that a culture of it?
Meta, you have no idea what youre talking about. How do we propose we measure who is conscious and who is not? Youre saying medicalizing mental health discourages self-determination, do you have any evidence for that? How does that even apply to this situation?
In any case I dont think it makes a difference. The kid was clearly mentally ill. I dont fully understand what assigning individual blame accomplishes. Obviously for something like this to happen there are serious social breakdowns in practically every arena, and solutions have to be holistic. So whats your point?
The guy who climed the clock tower in Austin and killed 15 people with a sniper rifle was a former Marine. A lot of good Parris Island did for him (except teach him how to shoot accurately).
First, Full Metal Jacket was a fictional movie.
Secondly, I lived on Parris Island for three years while growing up. A large proportion of my friends' dads were wife-beating borderline sociopaths. I wouldn't hold up Marine Corps discipline as any sort of example for the rest of the country.
Thirdly, you don't know jack shit about mental illness. I suggest sticking to making pretty little blobs at Penn and laying off pontificating about a subject you know nothing about.
If I were to agree with him on one point, it would be that within treatment, there should be a greater emphasis on teaching methods for willful self-control, rather than a total reliance on medication and endless re-diagnosis, but I think things have been moving that way in recent years anyway.
I think the real challenge here is to figure out when and how treatment should be forced upon someone who needs it but is too far gone to see it. Its a terrible question, perhaps there just is no way to treat someone who doesnt want to be treated, but it seems like 24 hours (is it the same in all states?) is not enough time to evaluate and demonstrate to someone that their life can be better. A month maybe in extreme circumstances like this?
I dont think there will be any magic bullet though. Ive been suicidal before, I dont think people can comprehend how isolating that can be. I was lucky to make it through, in the end it was only the love and compassion and persistence of friends and family that really helped.
is metamechanic a girl? I said him but I probably shouldnt presume?
[url=http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9716365]
listen
[/url]
is metamechanic a girl? I said him but I probably shouldnt presume?
I think it's fair to assume that most women don't employ mildly derogatory nicknames for our own genitalia as a synonym for weakness.
Both of them felt there could have been much more done earlier that could have more than likely prevented this.
Probation officer means oversight, not discipline. And if you listened closely they added the caveat that it would be particularly helpful if those types of officers for the mentally ill were also trained therapists, as opposed to cops with maybe an associates degree.
more can be done - period. calling people names and stereotyping them literally does nothing to solve anything.
I would love to see the data 10 years after after we implement everything those doctors called for. I think you would see a world of difference...yet, there would still be incidents...but I think there would be less, and that if we as a society chose solutions based on ideas of proactive compassion as opposed to reactive discipline, we would be ni a better place.
Climate has too much empathy - are you deranged?
The family went to the Police for protection out of fear of reprisal...You have no clue what you are talking about at all.
Do you realy want to know ????
Oh, it is a party now. Here is some rope - ya'll have some fun.
What ??
Sorry I lost the tread at this ;
".won't just pawn them off on meds and doctors, maybe they'll make an attempt to get to know them a bit more, after all they are biologically related."
Where are the referance, do you raly want to know ???
I spoke with this guy physics student I recall, and he admid that the intire school thing was a hell ; stupid in terms of his expertations , and the social issue the whole thing. From his words I wonder why you hate the individual so much why group and social harasment -- as if you couldn't be without the satisfaction, have driven so many more tallented young people to kill themself , that this in number is making the social inviroment the worse enemy for a guy who is othervise clever enough , to argue a more sense univers than Einstein ?
How many is each year harrased to kill themselv by group harasment ; what do that mean to the level of compution and thiee issues , now do you realy want to know -- as if you claim that , you also say you want to change it, and that is sadly how things are, --- you will not change.
But this guy is not the only one I spoken about these things with, acturly there are a number in each class and to often their life is a hell --- othervise normal students who are harrased by the intire group but who get their life made a hell, becaurse a few, allway's not to bright ones, that master the social issues and need someone to harras ; now this can't be a new thing, and when this obviously are a part of the issue, tell me, how many are driven by bad social games into taking their own life each year ???
You still don't want to know ???
Listen I run a support group where so often, it is the same issues , the same old evil , that ruined this or that guy or girls youth. Belive me people with these hurt crowd, and relive just talking to others, in a safe place. And the number of othervise top IQ within the same group somehow frighten me. And it is the same social issues over and over .
Now that mean you can count survivers, people who somehow mentaly survived , being to good focusing on the issue instead of praising the local smartass , not all of them are made hosteage of social isolation and just want to be left alone , --- Many feel this way and doing something about that, an issue we know a lot about, it would be possible to take care of others with maybe mental sickness problems.
"guarentee more people are harrased by social groups and don't kill themselves than vice a versa."
But -- sadly social harasment also mean exactly those responses ; you won't even think about changing it, nomatter the cost are that a growing number acturly take their own life ,rather than take it out on the others, who seriously are to blame.
It's like saying "we know what is wrong , and what to do about it, but we don't like the color of it. My experience is that exactly where some want the group harasment to be justified rather than realising that next time, it will be your sons child who suffer what so easy could be reverted. Fact is that this also undermine the crafts in the whole thing ; academics become dull words and the emporors clotches , while the smart guy handle better, than the one with actural wisdom. Allowing this to continue mean in efficient construction as well as academic as conmans world ; no surprise for me btw.
The first guy I mentioned seriously would love to be able to ponish those who made his life a hell , and classes shuld still be the terratorie of the class bulli ; now only the class bully would have that !
metamechanic -
Hooo boy, pulling out the "PC" card as an insult? Is it so important to cling to hate speech in your apparently limited vocabulary of insults. Admitting to having said something offensive, and possibly even apologizing for it (or not, if you are not apologetic) would be an actual example of taking responsibility for your actions and facing the consequences. If you're committed to employing sexist or otherwise bigoted language in your everyday speech, then you've got to accept the fact that people are going to confront you about it from time to time, particularly in a forum targeting an academic/professional audience.
I don't believe jasoncross is not using the word "support" to imply coddling, cuddly, lovey lovey huggy flowers and unconditional forgiveness for all people living with mental problems of varying severity. Sometimes the most "supportive" thing that one can do for a person is to do what you seem to be describing - tell them that they're behaving stupidly, that you're worried, that they need to get help (or offer some advice on how to improve the situation, perhaps.) Tough love. This should NOT be motivated by a desire to "Break" anyone (which sounds pretty sociopathic in itself.)
Kind of agrea , as long as you are comited to go that far that you somewhere understand the basic situation and can keep your own emagination out of it.
But today's schools simply can't support a growing number of valuable individuals already. In the old school and where group works was as important as the individual , there was room for that funny guy with the ticks, today the group willingly sacrify the guy who in the old day's would grow to become the master of things.
Here right Here, it feed your privilige to down any bright guy with something on his mind , look back and see what interest are the greatest, building the actural wonders or becoming feared enough to throw your way to pover ,using this fora as just a playground, look what need there are in mechanic construction towerds advanced mud throwing.
Listen you take my example as school example ;
Many years ago a bright guy who could acturly use the computer for other things than mails, develob a brilliant building method , what happen when he announce it --- NO NO don't answer I tell you as HERE I know better than you.
Expleditly the most rotten minds strive out to kill this guy with poison, or mud throwing--- Him is not allowed to think he is someone --- and not one word about what a brilliant new method can bring.
The guy who is best at harassing the guy who happily display his invention are faced an army of all sorts of sick minds --- none of whome have a better suggestion and only a fraction acturly understood the vision but just followed . In my time in this role for you dear students, I learned to reconise the new guy , who just want to credit the fuhrer and therefore harass a little on the clas's bulli's victim ; an honest guy bright and living in copenhagen ,but not allowed his name here, where the robbery of his dredit are also comisioned.
Give me my name back --- or tell me the justification to rob an artist his name !
Then credit their efford and belive in a better world, realise that there are need for jobs for caring aswell as jobs in the new industries that today is not wanted as they mean change and thereby change of pover. But if you will not respect others or realise the magnifold how groups harasment can newer be a good thing and there are way's that is not even tried, as the class bully fear good results, then stay with your war against yourself. I been fighting for the credits for the bright guy , openness and sharing for decades , so do not blame me.
"vindust let me break this down for you, i'm going to give you a new perspective...
if one is so brilliant in one area then it is quite possible to become brilliant in another."
Yes
"i've met a couple geniuses in my day who were to proud to become like the rest, to proud to play the social game, which in turn led to them blaming everyone but themselves for their failure."
Sorry to say I see only two situations, either hot air or it was simply to late ; this happen you know, they can only be reached before the hate take over , and only then we can talk about mental illness with all that mean.
"now if you know what they are doing then you know how to do it. the other thing, based on your writing, you actually know more of what they are doing then they do, which will make you better at their game."
Yes again --- but I don't want any part of that game --- I want to give new jobs, a progressive architecture, new tools for better skilled artists than I , to make wonders and a mountain of money, cheap houses everyone can either afford or build themself , houses so strong that they will last. And I only pity old men who try rob the new tallents their daily bread and the develobments only those who know can bring.
"first, admit you lack social skills."
Done --- done already many times.
"second, study social skills like you would study art."
I can't but I make many other crafts, and they would suffer.
"thirdly, study the power and its connection to social skills."
I already know them they are enomous even greater than art.
"fourth, live a little lie, be who you are not, just so that your brilliant work can be properly accredited"
--- I think you failed the whole point "we" can't lie.
"if you understand what i read logically, then begin the battle of mind versus spirit, there is no excuses, unless one is trully metnally ill."
No but that is an exchouse then, and we shuld all do ours to become just a bit better.
Sorry --- but from the start I did tell myself, not to participate ; see the things I facts ,was in the spirit that if something will be done , then some directions are better than others and instead of doing things that wouldn't make any difference or make things worse, ehy not do things that made several other things better just by side effects. The shooter is faced either a real or an emagined social demand so are the funny guy who's only problems are infact just the ticks. Any efford to entlighten and educate will help.
OMG, it's like an orgy of bullshit in here!
"OMG, it's like an orgy of bullshit in here!"
Now that was clever words, just what we need right ?
And exactly the stuff any 12 year old could participate.
Listen exchouse me, but I leave the discussion here ; I know that it only take this or that much time before someone cruising the web ,want us all to profit from his expert oppinion about anything. This is the right time to go.
vin, you've got a great sense of humor.
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