i just received this as a message from ACSA on behalf of Virginia Tech from the Arch Dept Dean
*(ACSA= assoc of collegiate schools of architecture)
Dear Friends,
On behalf of the College of Architecture and Urban Studies at Virginia Tech, I want to thank you for your heartfelt thoughts and prayers following the horrific tragedy on our campus. Your messages of hope and solidarity are of critical importance to our faculty and students.
The environment here is most surreal, particularly with the ever present media and significant sadness felt by our colleagues and students in an otherwise pristine environment. The quiet embracing nature of Blacksburg may forever be changed, but with the support of our friends we know that as Elie Wiesel says, "human goodness carries its own reward." As educators, we can not lose the faith in the value of our professional bodies of knowledge as contributing to the betterment of the human condition.
Forgive us if we don't respond immediately to your well wishes. We have many tasks we have never had before. I want to extend a warm welcome should your travels bring you to Blacksburg and show how we, in time, will prevail.
I hope you will choose to join us in a moment of silence for the remembrance of the victims today. At that moment, you will be one with all of us.
Best Regards,
Jack Davis, FAIA
Reynolds Metals Professor and
Dean
Letter to the Students and Administration of the University of Virginia
Date: April 17, 2007
On behalf of 30,000 students, administrators, and our Virginia Tech community, I cannot begin to express our gratitude for the outpouring of sympathy, support, and compassion UVA has shown us in the past two days.
It is an understatement to say the aftermath of our losses has been emotionally trying for us. The realization of losing 32 valuable lives in our Virginia Tech family is something that we are trying desperately to recover from...but even in the most difficult day of Virginia Tech history, we have found strength-it is your university in particular that has sustained us, far beyond what you will ever know.
We thank you for your students and faculty that gathered to memorialize our victims and to share in our sorrow.
We thank you for the initiative and commitment your student government made towards finding 30,000 candles for our grieving campus, so that our student leaders could focus on healing and comforting instead.
We thank you for the hundreds of Hokies who saw your painted bridge, and were moved to tears.
We thank you for the way your students instantly put aside our infamous rivalry to the point where the greatest measures of compassion from another institution have been from you.
Your aid has had such a profound impact upon our students. Please know what UVA is doing is being noticed, is making a difference, and is nothing short of extraordinary.
Thank you for being a testament to the best of collegiate student leadership-and to humanity in general. In what we have been calling the darkest night Virginia Tech has ever seen, you are one of our brightest lights. The strong alliance that has been formed between our school and yours is part of our foundation in moving forward.
From our hearts to yours, thank you for your noble efforts. May you also find solace and restoration as we grieve together as students and as a nation.
In or out of times of need, Virginia Tech will stand beside you as fellow students, Virginians, and most importantly, as friends.
With gratitude,
Elizabeth Hart on behalf of Virginia Tech students
Virginia Tech Student Government Association
Director of Public Relations [email protected]
+i by your many comments on many of the other threads I don't doubt you are a smart, independent individual.
We all need a little help everyonce in while but your last point is the slippery slope that I think leads to problems. "no one wants to help "which can quickly turn into it's not my fault or worse, its everyone elses fault for not helping.
In California at least, "A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption."
However, one must have a hunting license to shoot game over the age of 16, and one can obtain 'big game' tags (which allow one to shoot deer, elk, etc.) as young as the age of 12. Therefor there is a large gap between when one may operate a firearm and when one may purchase a firearm. I am unsure of the ramifications of situations such as a gun purchased by a parent for their child (for the purpose of hunting, presumably).
oh, and the age of sixteen thing is wierd, because there is no minimum age listed at all for a hunting license, leaving the possibility for children under the age of 16 to hunt without a license.
I agree that it is neither shameful or immature to accept help or even ask for help. The point I'm trying to make is on the expectation of help and the resulting mind set when it is not given. The idea that the goverment, community or "adult" family structure is responsible for everyone else is something I don't agree with because often enought it leads to individuals developing the idea that they are not responsible for their own actions. Cho I believe is a clear example of that blaming everyone else for his problems.
In your final statement my only issue I have is with the word "reliance". I don't think being relient on anything or anyone is a healthy approach to any life.
yet somehow it seems that people (particularly young adults) in other countries have a higher degree of responsibility and self-control than we do here... perhaps this is because in addition to being reliant on the family, they are responsible for unholding the honorable reputation of the family, responsible for helping other family members, responsible financially for things within the family? I think it's easier for people to act responsible when they feel that they are responsible for something greater than themselves.
asian countries are what I had in mind, particularly when thinking of the reputation of the family, but I know firsthand that it's also common in Latino families to be responsible financially and socially to the family.
The self reliance question is an interesting one and I’d love to chat about it, but as far as Cho goes; this guy was clearly very mentally ill. It’s not a matter of “he should stand up for himself and stop blaming the world”. He was nuts. He clearly wasn’t taking responsibility for his actions and there are a lot of people out there like this. So the question remains – how should we as a community (be it a country, state, school or family) address these situations?
Again I’d love to chat about the meaning/value of self reliance but wanted to put that out there.
Its interesting what you guys think, but in this case i think the parents were clearly responsible.
This kid had a mental condition since childhood (even before he came to the US.) The least the parents could do was to to nofify the school about his illnesses and tendencies.
The parents, however look like they want to be in 'seclusion' forever.
they went straight to the south korean embassy here in dc when they found out what their kid did because they are "afraid of a backlash and fearful for their lives". apparently us secret service is guarding them
sameolddr- despite the parents reluctance to divulge, the school was clearly in the loop about his mental condition anyways as a result of his previous actions. They either could not or would not do anything about it.
I was listening to NPR this morning and they brought up the fact that several schools have been sued for discrimination as a result of their actions regarding those will mental/emotional conditions. How does a school know when a kid is just dealing with some tough stuff, or when he is really the sort to go over the line?
you are wrong meta. peoples conditions get worse over time...and many times they randomness of their treatment does nothing but exacerbate it. How do you think that homeless guy got there? Delivered by aliens one day, or by a slow decline over a lifetime? I have had 2 very smart and talented friends commit suicide, but you would have just said they were weak and not actually ill...they were not living in the streets in their own filth or anything like that.
Yearly more than 30,000 people commit suicide...most of them are not these extreme acute situations that you speak of. 90% have a mental illness. I posted all the stats earlier but doubt you looked back and check out the facts.
Your attitude about mental illness is a large part of the problem. Soldiers coming back from Iraq I being treated with the same disdain when they report mental illness. Fear of being labeled weak limits people reporting in the first place. Your attitude confirms their fears. Compassion is what you give people who are in need of help. You open doors for them, not close them. Our funding for mental health is a joke.
But I think also that the classification of it as an illness has made people think that it's something they don't have any control over. Society needs to realize that the two are not mutually exclusive- that if you have a mental illness, you need to work every day of your life to manage your condition, and yeah it's hard, but what isn't? Somehow the classification of depression as an illness and in some contexts a disability has encouraged a sense of helplessness which does nothing more than exacerbate the condition.
Well, for a group that is in need - our funding shows how we actually feel. What do you tell your friends that are depressed (I had two friends commit suicide in the past 4 years)? Toughen up? Get over it? Your American damnit.
Guess what? A lot more people have a very hard time with mental illness than the numbers of those that use it as a crutch. Heck, people abuse welfare, should we give it up for all and say if your poor just toughen up?
Stupid argument. Those who need help should get it and be supported in doing so. I would argue Cho wasn't just acting and using it as a crutch.
I'm also not saying that they all "use it as a crutch."
What I AM saying is that the attitude of this country currently does not promote self-control in many ways, and this is one of them. The feeling of helplessness is encouraged in those who already feel helpless. People in general are allowed and subtley encouraged to wallow in their problems, in self-pity, in blaming others, and it's not productive for anyone.
I guess I feel like meta and I are kind of the backlash against the current climate. Like we're the postmodernism to modernism- modernism was the stronger movement, but postmodernism was a natural reaction to it.
It just seems like I'm always hearing blame, blame, blame, and I get sick of it. Things are blamed on parents, on schools, on everything until eventually there's no blame left to apportion to the person whose actions are actually under consideration.
"now you are talking suicidal people, thats a differnt case all together...men typically suceed as opposed to women, due partially to methods."
I'm going to go back and see whether those stats address this, but it had been my understanding that more women than men attempted suicide, just that more men than women succeeded...
Fear is the climate, not how to cope with emotions, stress, anxiety, debt, hate, media, love, fear, etc. etc. We should do more to help each other be able to cope - this would mean we would have easier access to help, etc...all things we do not. Much of the reasons why are the same reasons why we have poverty issues etc...it is not because we as americans could not spend more on treatment than jail cells (or even a remotely proportionate amount) but we don't challenge the status quo as to why that is the case. Maybe all us 'sane' Americans should have some balls and stand up for those who are enduring whatever they are enduring as opposed to pointing fingers at them and scolding them.
I agree that I'd rather pay for hospitals and healthcare and good productive things than for jail cells, which I see as destructive and punative. I think the question is how an economy transitions from a jail cell economy to a hospital economy without completely overburdoning the taxpayer and releasing criminals. Because treatment can take many years, what to we do in the transition period when we have both a large number of people requiring treatment and a large number of people requiring isolation? I can see how we'd get on well once we reduced the number of people requiring isolation from society, because we'd have the resources to address a large number of people requiring treatment. I just can't see how to get there...
"So, you are saying a person termed "mentally ill" is responsible...but you has a human being don't have the compassion to lend a hand. I feel for you."
How do you suggest that I as a human being lend a hand? I encourage people towards counseling when I feel they need it, I vote for prevention rather than punishment when the choices come up. I simply insist also that people remember that they have more control than they've been lead to believe.
employment + healthcare + cut the pharmas off from the teat that feeds (vote for people who agree with this) = a big change.
I don't think it takes a lot to see a large effect...our effort currently is akin to me walking to Walmart for twinkies everyday as training for a marathon. You make it sound like it would be too hard to do something that would be so good...that seems anti-rational.
If we just did 5 times what we currently do in funding we would see huge changes...That is from friends who are doctors whose biggest passion in life is to get these changes though. They see the need every day. I tend to believe them.
someone who runs out and plans to kill that many people has more going wrong with him than I want to bet against, ok. Are you a doctor? No? Then I don't care what your post incident assumptions are...his actions speak much louder.
jasoncross- but other than voting for the good bills when they come up, how does one effect change on a budgetary scale of billions?
I'm not argueing here (I know it's hard to tell over the net sometimes), I'm genuinely asking. I guess it's like me walking in training for a marathon, if I was somehow unaware that running existed.
wait, so meta, are you saying that someone is by your definition not mentally ill as soon as the moment comes at which they are aware of their mental illness?
Get involved, come up with your own ideas and answers...volunteer...even architectural resources for say public clinics to get build and help nonprofits put together proposals for grant fundings...it doesn't take much thinking to see it could be quite easy -yes with effort - to get things changing. What else are we going to do while we are on the rock?
Heck, sounds like a great opportunity for a thesis.
Clairito, those are who my wife and he coworkers friends are. They are largely very underfunded, and they are great people - but could use a ton of help in having an actual effect beyond just stringing along a system that is already overburdened.
But I do agree, in the public community clinics are some very smart and wonderful people who would do anything to get someone help.
Jason - I totally agree. I only said "not too helpful" because it felt like rationalist was already aware of government as a response. I think that at the local level we can really understand the effect we have.
meta - So you offer tools to people who look for help, right? Or are you saying that therapy/phychiatry aren't good ways out of the spiral and they shouldn't use those tools at all?
nor can you but I will stick with the docs...thanks buddy...and the numbers...and as much as you don't want to believe it...it is true....more people are dealing with mental illness every year - not less...and we as a country are in no way preparing for that, we are doing the opposite. those are facts. make up what you want.
Damn you guys keep posting things too quickly so everything I’m posting is outdated.
It's very hard to have a mental illness and it takes a lot of work to live a fulfilling life but it's possible. We can agree on this, yes?
We all have different obstacles but we seem to be having trouble talking about mental illness in particular in a reasonable way. I'm not sure why.
If people seek out tools to help them, great. We should make them avaliable. If they're in a possition where they're a danger to the community at large then we need to help them if they want it or not. We all agree on this, yes?
When you can tell that something is wrong with someone, and they aren't asking for help, then what?
Alfrejas, you said - "In your final statement my only issue I have is with the word "reliance". I don't think being relient on anything or anyone is a healthy approach to any life."
I don't see how it is possible to get through life without relying on others. I accept responsibility for the things for which I can accept responsibility, indeed! But, well... as a human creature, as a grown adult, I do require social/emotional support from friends and loved ones. Furthermore, I very frequently put my lives in the hands of others. When I had surgery, I relied upon my surgeon and his team at the hospital and relied upon them to save rather than kill me. I rely upon the employees of the MTA to make sure my public transit's working so that I can responsibly arrive at commitments on time. I put my life into the hands of various bus and taxi drivers on a regular basis. I rely upon the staff at restaurants where I eat to wash after they use the restroom. I rely upon my fellow humans' common decency when I assume that the bottled water or prepackaged brownie I buy at the deli hasn't been poisoned. I rely on my building's superintendent to make sure the gas tanks don't blow up. Etc.
Every day, all of our lives are in the hands of others and we don't have control over everything. I don't think it's healthy to operate within the mentality that one can control their entire universe. I don't think that recognizing this interdependence constitutes neediness or an inability to take care of oneself. To a certain extent, each of us can influence our own spheres. But it's important to remember how much of it is out of your control.
Then you encourage them to seek help, gently, and offer them the contact information for local resoruces, or even to drive them to an appointment if you can. You stay tuned in to their behaviour so that you can try and tell whether they're getting worse or better. You do not let them isolate themselves.
The unfortunate thing about this is that sometimes you'll see the person become happier and more confident, and think they're getting better.... and the real reason is because they've decided how and when to kill themselves. : (
And it seems the people at VT wanted to, but were in legal fear of over stepping boundaries and that they had limits to what they could do.
Lots of fine lines. But I believe if we put some real effort into more infrastructure it could take care of alot of Chos. Maybe in his elementary school there could have been 4 full time counselors as opposed to probably none or one.
On top of additional counselors it would also be nice to actually have licensed doctors/ as counselors and not someone with little or no background in the field such as the current state in many places.
er, I'm behind, that was in response to Clairito's ending question...
"a depressed person makes good art, silvia plath wrote great stuff on her highs, you want to treat genius and call it a condition? " This is hard stuff, and something people struggle with, not just bipolar people but chronically depressed people. It can feel like you're giving up on your 'true' self, or like you're too weak to handle what you really are, to seek treatment. That's the most intensely personal decision ever... and until a person becomes a danger, then yes I think they have the right to refuse treatment. The hard part is to judge when a person has crossed that line.
Daniel is an old friend of mine that I lived next door to in central Austin. at 4111 Avenue A. He is a wonderfully gifted songwriter who has been covered by Sonic You, Yo La Tengo and many more.
He was jailed many times as he would loose it and disappear usually found on congress trying to show a cop how strong he was because he was superman (he thought I was Paul McCartney at times)
Daniel, after many many many years of effort from family and friends finally got to a good point.
Meds and the support group and help did wonders, but it took a lot of time, lock up, luck...I visited him twice in lockup at the state hospital in Austin...such a sad place. But, it got him back home and he is writing music to this day and the songs are as incredibly imaginative as they ever were...different, but again the same.
Without help, he would be here.
No one will ever take Daniels personality...it belongs to King Kong, Captain America, and the imagination of humanity.
Shooting + Murder at VIRGINIA TECH
i just received this as a message from ACSA on behalf of Virginia Tech from the Arch Dept Dean
*(ACSA= assoc of collegiate schools of architecture)
Dear Friends,
On behalf of the College of Architecture and Urban Studies at Virginia Tech, I want to thank you for your heartfelt thoughts and prayers following the horrific tragedy on our campus. Your messages of hope and solidarity are of critical importance to our faculty and students.
The environment here is most surreal, particularly with the ever present media and significant sadness felt by our colleagues and students in an otherwise pristine environment. The quiet embracing nature of Blacksburg may forever be changed, but with the support of our friends we know that as Elie Wiesel says, "human goodness carries its own reward." As educators, we can not lose the faith in the value of our professional bodies of knowledge as contributing to the betterment of the human condition.
Forgive us if we don't respond immediately to your well wishes. We have many tasks we have never had before. I want to extend a warm welcome should your travels bring you to Blacksburg and show how we, in time, will prevail.
I hope you will choose to join us in a moment of silence for the remembrance of the victims today. At that moment, you will be one with all of us.
Best Regards,
Jack Davis, FAIA
Reynolds Metals Professor and
Dean
and the letter passing between VT and UVA.
Letter to the Students and Administration of the University of Virginia
Date: April 17, 2007
On behalf of 30,000 students, administrators, and our Virginia Tech community, I cannot begin to express our gratitude for the outpouring of sympathy, support, and compassion UVA has shown us in the past two days.
It is an understatement to say the aftermath of our losses has been emotionally trying for us. The realization of losing 32 valuable lives in our Virginia Tech family is something that we are trying desperately to recover from...but even in the most difficult day of Virginia Tech history, we have found strength-it is your university in particular that has sustained us, far beyond what you will ever know.
We thank you for your students and faculty that gathered to memorialize our victims and to share in our sorrow.
We thank you for the initiative and commitment your student government made towards finding 30,000 candles for our grieving campus, so that our student leaders could focus on healing and comforting instead.
We thank you for the hundreds of Hokies who saw your painted bridge, and were moved to tears.
We thank you for the way your students instantly put aside our infamous rivalry to the point where the greatest measures of compassion from another institution have been from you.
Your aid has had such a profound impact upon our students. Please know what UVA is doing is being noticed, is making a difference, and is nothing short of extraordinary.
Thank you for being a testament to the best of collegiate student leadership-and to humanity in general. In what we have been calling the darkest night Virginia Tech has ever seen, you are one of our brightest lights. The strong alliance that has been formed between our school and yours is part of our foundation in moving forward.
From our hearts to yours, thank you for your noble efforts. May you also find solace and restoration as we grieve together as students and as a nation.
In or out of times of need, Virginia Tech will stand beside you as fellow students, Virginians, and most importantly, as friends.
With gratitude,
Elizabeth Hart on behalf of Virginia Tech students
Virginia Tech Student Government Association
Director of Public Relations
[email protected]
+i by your many comments on many of the other threads I don't doubt you are a smart, independent individual.
We all need a little help everyonce in while but your last point is the slippery slope that I think leads to problems. "no one wants to help "which can quickly turn into it's not my fault or worse, its everyone elses fault for not helping.
In California at least, "A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption."
However, one must have a hunting license to shoot game over the age of 16, and one can obtain 'big game' tags (which allow one to shoot deer, elk, etc.) as young as the age of 12. Therefor there is a large gap between when one may operate a firearm and when one may purchase a firearm. I am unsure of the ramifications of situations such as a gun purchased by a parent for their child (for the purpose of hunting, presumably).
oh, and the age of sixteen thing is wierd, because there is no minimum age listed at all for a hunting license, leaving the possibility for children under the age of 16 to hunt without a license.
namby
I agree that it is neither shameful or immature to accept help or even ask for help. The point I'm trying to make is on the expectation of help and the resulting mind set when it is not given. The idea that the goverment, community or "adult" family structure is responsible for everyone else is something I don't agree with because often enought it leads to individuals developing the idea that they are not responsible for their own actions. Cho I believe is a clear example of that blaming everyone else for his problems.
In your final statement my only issue I have is with the word "reliance". I don't think being relient on anything or anyone is a healthy approach to any life.
self-reliance?
dont get my statement twisted on your way up (or down) that slippery slope.
yet somehow it seems that people (particularly young adults) in other countries have a higher degree of responsibility and self-control than we do here... perhaps this is because in addition to being reliant on the family, they are responsible for unholding the honorable reputation of the family, responsible for helping other family members, responsible financially for things within the family? I think it's easier for people to act responsible when they feel that they are responsible for something greater than themselves.
+i I was referring to namby reference to reliance.
rationalist I'd be curious to know what other countries you are speaking of.
asian countries are what I had in mind, particularly when thinking of the reputation of the family, but I know firsthand that it's also common in Latino families to be responsible financially and socially to the family.
Wait… what?
The self reliance question is an interesting one and I’d love to chat about it, but as far as Cho goes; this guy was clearly very mentally ill. It’s not a matter of “he should stand up for himself and stop blaming the world”. He was nuts. He clearly wasn’t taking responsibility for his actions and there are a lot of people out there like this. So the question remains – how should we as a community (be it a country, state, school or family) address these situations?
Again I’d love to chat about the meaning/value of self reliance but wanted to put that out there.
why dont you begin the self-reliance chat... go ahead... give it two shakes and a pull
Its interesting what you guys think, but in this case i think the parents were clearly responsible.
This kid had a mental condition since childhood (even before he came to the US.) The least the parents could do was to to nofify the school about his illnesses and tendencies.
The parents, however look like they want to be in 'seclusion' forever.
they went straight to the south korean embassy here in dc when they found out what their kid did because they are "afraid of a backlash and fearful for their lives". apparently us secret service is guarding them
sameolddr- despite the parents reluctance to divulge, the school was clearly in the loop about his mental condition anyways as a result of his previous actions. They either could not or would not do anything about it.
I was listening to NPR this morning and they brought up the fact that several schools have been sued for discrimination as a result of their actions regarding those will mental/emotional conditions. How does a school know when a kid is just dealing with some tough stuff, or when he is really the sort to go over the line?
Also addressed on Slate
you are wrong meta. peoples conditions get worse over time...and many times they randomness of their treatment does nothing but exacerbate it. How do you think that homeless guy got there? Delivered by aliens one day, or by a slow decline over a lifetime? I have had 2 very smart and talented friends commit suicide, but you would have just said they were weak and not actually ill...they were not living in the streets in their own filth or anything like that.
Yearly more than 30,000 people commit suicide...most of them are not these extreme acute situations that you speak of. 90% have a mental illness. I posted all the stats earlier but doubt you looked back and check out the facts.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9650301
Your attitude about mental illness is a large part of the problem. Soldiers coming back from Iraq I being treated with the same disdain when they report mental illness. Fear of being labeled weak limits people reporting in the first place. Your attitude confirms their fears. Compassion is what you give people who are in need of help. You open doors for them, not close them. Our funding for mental health is a joke.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm#Intro
500 billion a year for military and 1 billion for mental health.
But I think also that the classification of it as an illness has made people think that it's something they don't have any control over. Society needs to realize that the two are not mutually exclusive- that if you have a mental illness, you need to work every day of your life to manage your condition, and yeah it's hard, but what isn't? Somehow the classification of depression as an illness and in some contexts a disability has encouraged a sense of helplessness which does nothing more than exacerbate the condition.
Well, for a group that is in need - our funding shows how we actually feel. What do you tell your friends that are depressed (I had two friends commit suicide in the past 4 years)? Toughen up? Get over it? Your American damnit.
Guess what? A lot more people have a very hard time with mental illness than the numbers of those that use it as a crutch. Heck, people abuse welfare, should we give it up for all and say if your poor just toughen up?
Stupid argument. Those who need help should get it and be supported in doing so. I would argue Cho wasn't just acting and using it as a crutch.
I'm not saying they don't need or deserve help.
I'm also not saying that they all "use it as a crutch."
What I AM saying is that the attitude of this country currently does not promote self-control in many ways, and this is one of them. The feeling of helplessness is encouraged in those who already feel helpless. People in general are allowed and subtley encouraged to wallow in their problems, in self-pity, in blaming others, and it's not productive for anyone.
I completely disagree with you that, that is the current climate. From your comments and metas I would argue it is quite the opposite.
I guess I feel like meta and I are kind of the backlash against the current climate. Like we're the postmodernism to modernism- modernism was the stronger movement, but postmodernism was a natural reaction to it.
It just seems like I'm always hearing blame, blame, blame, and I get sick of it. Things are blamed on parents, on schools, on everything until eventually there's no blame left to apportion to the person whose actions are actually under consideration.
I'm going to go back and see whether those stats address this, but it had been my understanding that more women than men attempted suicide, just that more men than women succeeded...
Fear is the climate, not how to cope with emotions, stress, anxiety, debt, hate, media, love, fear, etc. etc. We should do more to help each other be able to cope - this would mean we would have easier access to help, etc...all things we do not. Much of the reasons why are the same reasons why we have poverty issues etc...it is not because we as americans could not spend more on treatment than jail cells (or even a remotely proportionate amount) but we don't challenge the status quo as to why that is the case. Maybe all us 'sane' Americans should have some balls and stand up for those who are enduring whatever they are enduring as opposed to pointing fingers at them and scolding them.
sweet, well disregard the stats (facts by government numbers) and I will go ahead and just ignore your posts.
fair enough.
yawn.
So, you are saying a person termed "mentally ill" is responsible...but you has a human being don't have the compassion to lend a hand. I feel for you.
I agree that I'd rather pay for hospitals and healthcare and good productive things than for jail cells, which I see as destructive and punative. I think the question is how an economy transitions from a jail cell economy to a hospital economy without completely overburdoning the taxpayer and releasing criminals. Because treatment can take many years, what to we do in the transition period when we have both a large number of people requiring treatment and a large number of people requiring isolation? I can see how we'd get on well once we reduced the number of people requiring isolation from society, because we'd have the resources to address a large number of people requiring treatment. I just can't see how to get there...
"So, you are saying a person termed "mentally ill" is responsible...but you has a human being don't have the compassion to lend a hand. I feel for you."
How do you suggest that I as a human being lend a hand? I encourage people towards counseling when I feel they need it, I vote for prevention rather than punishment when the choices come up. I simply insist also that people remember that they have more control than they've been lead to believe.
Maybe we need to define our terms better... meta you lost me.
employment + healthcare + cut the pharmas off from the teat that feeds (vote for people who agree with this) = a big change.
I don't think it takes a lot to see a large effect...our effort currently is akin to me walking to Walmart for twinkies everyday as training for a marathon. You make it sound like it would be too hard to do something that would be so good...that seems anti-rational.
If we just did 5 times what we currently do in funding we would see huge changes...That is from friends who are doctors whose biggest passion in life is to get these changes though. They see the need every day. I tend to believe them.
yeah, where is the boundary between a 'mental condition' and a 'mental illness' to you?
someone who runs out and plans to kill that many people has more going wrong with him than I want to bet against, ok. Are you a doctor? No? Then I don't care what your post incident assumptions are...his actions speak much louder.
jasoncross- but other than voting for the good bills when they come up, how does one effect change on a budgetary scale of billions?
I'm not argueing here (I know it's hard to tell over the net sometimes), I'm genuinely asking. I guess it's like me walking in training for a marathon, if I was somehow unaware that running existed.
wait, so meta, are you saying that someone is by your definition not mentally ill as soon as the moment comes at which they are aware of their mental illness?
Not too helpful - but to some degree there is local government. Check out your city/county/state mental health facilities.
Get involved, come up with your own ideas and answers...volunteer...even architectural resources for say public clinics to get build and help nonprofits put together proposals for grant fundings...it doesn't take much thinking to see it could be quite easy -yes with effort - to get things changing. What else are we going to do while we are on the rock?
Heck, sounds like a great opportunity for a thesis.
not really.... would you classify depression as a condition, or an illness?
Clairito, those are who my wife and he coworkers friends are. They are largely very underfunded, and they are great people - but could use a ton of help in having an actual effect beyond just stringing along a system that is already overburdened.
But I do agree, in the public community clinics are some very smart and wonderful people who would do anything to get someone help.
her
so it's an illness in some people, and a condition in others??? Please just give a straight answer.
Jason - I totally agree. I only said "not too helpful" because it felt like rationalist was already aware of government as a response. I think that at the local level we can really understand the effect we have.
meta - So you offer tools to people who look for help, right? Or are you saying that therapy/phychiatry aren't good ways out of the spiral and they shouldn't use those tools at all?
nor can you but I will stick with the docs...thanks buddy...and the numbers...and as much as you don't want to believe it...it is true....more people are dealing with mental illness every year - not less...and we as a country are in no way preparing for that, we are doing the opposite. those are facts. make up what you want.
Damn you guys keep posting things too quickly so everything I’m posting is outdated.
It's very hard to have a mental illness and it takes a lot of work to live a fulfilling life but it's possible. We can agree on this, yes?
We all have different obstacles but we seem to be having trouble talking about mental illness in particular in a reasonable way. I'm not sure why.
If people seek out tools to help them, great. We should make them avaliable. If they're in a possition where they're a danger to the community at large then we need to help them if they want it or not. We all agree on this, yes?
When you can tell that something is wrong with someone, and they aren't asking for help, then what?
Alfrejas, you said - "In your final statement my only issue I have is with the word "reliance". I don't think being relient on anything or anyone is a healthy approach to any life."
I don't see how it is possible to get through life without relying on others. I accept responsibility for the things for which I can accept responsibility, indeed! But, well... as a human creature, as a grown adult, I do require social/emotional support from friends and loved ones. Furthermore, I very frequently put my lives in the hands of others. When I had surgery, I relied upon my surgeon and his team at the hospital and relied upon them to save rather than kill me. I rely upon the employees of the MTA to make sure my public transit's working so that I can responsibly arrive at commitments on time. I put my life into the hands of various bus and taxi drivers on a regular basis. I rely upon the staff at restaurants where I eat to wash after they use the restroom. I rely upon my fellow humans' common decency when I assume that the bottled water or prepackaged brownie I buy at the deli hasn't been poisoned. I rely on my building's superintendent to make sure the gas tanks don't blow up. Etc.
Every day, all of our lives are in the hands of others and we don't have control over everything. I don't think it's healthy to operate within the mentality that one can control their entire universe. I don't think that recognizing this interdependence constitutes neediness or an inability to take care of oneself. To a certain extent, each of us can influence our own spheres. But it's important to remember how much of it is out of your control.
Then you encourage them to seek help, gently, and offer them the contact information for local resoruces, or even to drive them to an appointment if you can. You stay tuned in to their behaviour so that you can try and tell whether they're getting worse or better. You do not let them isolate themselves.
The unfortunate thing about this is that sometimes you'll see the person become happier and more confident, and think they're getting better.... and the real reason is because they've decided how and when to kill themselves. : (
Well, to my friends I ask them if they are.
And it seems the people at VT wanted to, but were in legal fear of over stepping boundaries and that they had limits to what they could do.
Lots of fine lines. But I believe if we put some real effort into more infrastructure it could take care of alot of Chos. Maybe in his elementary school there could have been 4 full time counselors as opposed to probably none or one.
On top of additional counselors it would also be nice to actually have licensed doctors/ as counselors and not someone with little or no background in the field such as the current state in many places.
er, I'm behind, that was in response to Clairito's ending question...
"a depressed person makes good art, silvia plath wrote great stuff on her highs, you want to treat genius and call it a condition? " This is hard stuff, and something people struggle with, not just bipolar people but chronically depressed people. It can feel like you're giving up on your 'true' self, or like you're too weak to handle what you really are, to seek treatment. That's the most intensely personal decision ever... and until a person becomes a danger, then yes I think they have the right to refuse treatment. The hard part is to judge when a person has crossed that line.
"personality is being washed away into mental conditions"
No, personality is being washed away by mass consumer culture.
Daniel is an old friend of mine that I lived next door to in central Austin. at 4111 Avenue A. He is a wonderfully gifted songwriter who has been covered by Sonic You, Yo La Tengo and many more.
He was jailed many times as he would loose it and disappear usually found on congress trying to show a cop how strong he was because he was superman (he thought I was Paul McCartney at times)
Daniel, after many many many years of effort from family and friends finally got to a good point.
Meds and the support group and help did wonders, but it took a lot of time, lock up, luck...I visited him twice in lockup at the state hospital in Austin...such a sad place. But, it got him back home and he is writing music to this day and the songs are as incredibly imaginative as they ever were...different, but again the same.
Without help, he would be here.
No one will ever take Daniels personality...it belongs to King Kong, Captain America, and the imagination of humanity.
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