After completing undergrad and spending 3 years working I started grad school in 2007 & found a new job that gave me a nice bump in salary. Since then, I've graduated & gotten LEED certified, yet no significant pay increase. Not that I am complaining because I have a great job with a level of security, which many people are not fortunate enough to have.
However, considering the student loan crisis, current state of the economy; and weighing it against the future of our profession - how valuable is a grad school education? And is it wise for states to require the professional degree for licensure? Some states allow a 4-year degree plus 8 years experience. It's taken me 6 years to get all of my IDP hours in all the categories. Management hours are hard to come by when management level people aren't retiring and vacating positions for younger staff to move into. 2 year masters plus 6 years IDP equals 8 years plus another 40k for education that I wouldn't have spent otherwise.
I did become a better designer through grad school. I would have become a better technical guy if I kept working. Right now, I'd still do it again. But maybe it's time for NCARB to reconsider their educational requirements, because while I became a better designer, I don't know that I learned a damn thing that helped me protect human welfare that I wouldn't have learned by staying at work. Thoughts?
Only from my point of perspective, which is NO job since obtainingh my Masters in 2008, I'd have to say that The M.ARCH is worthless. You should be grateful. Almost nobody should get one these days.
I want to say it's worthless because I'm a little bitter about the loans I owe and the fact I'm not being compensated any more for having my Master's. However I don't think I could have gotten the job I do have if I didn't have an M.ARCH. How is someone without an M.ARCH supposed to compete for entry level jobs with M.ARCH candidates?
Well I have a 4yr degree and no arch job and people tell me to go get my masters so??? People always think grass is greener. You seem fournate as you founda good and steady employment.
I don't see much value in grad school for architecture. If you want to teach then it's a necessity, but IMHO 4 years is more than enough. I don't know why anyone would think spending an extra 40k plus on top of UG would be a good idea to help them get a 25k job.
Take that 40k and become a producer instead of someone who thinks that because they spent this money someone else needs to give them a job. Learn how to create jobs and you will be unstoppable. Degree doesn't mean shit.
Not to harp on anybody's situation, but I think the theory is true that the internet is 99% discontent, which is why I have stayed away from this website for a while.
I will offer a different opinion which I posted on the student loan thread. Someone gave me this advice before I started grad school, and having stuck to this rule of thumb (it definitely wasn't easy), but it made my degree worthwhile economically as well as personally. I won't disclose how much I make, but my grad degree led to better earnings for me:
Short of transforming the system, there are steps individuals can take to avoid financial disillusionment. The happy medium is called RESPONSIBLE DEBT, and this is usually defined as not taking on any school debt beyond what you anticipate making your first year out of said school (it's relative for different professions, but the rule of thumb applies to all professions). Realistically for architects, 35-40k is a responsible amount of debt for an undergraduate degree in architecture. 60-80k (total school debt including undergrad) is a responsible amount of debt for someone with a grad degree, but it's also your responsibility to go out and find a job that pays you that much out of school, not just do underpaid work somewhere and scowl at the system (you are at least 50% responsible for being underpaid) .
Unfortunately this involves compromise. Sometimes it's not responsible for you to go to the ivy league school that you got accepted to, but weren't able to secure a scholarship for or maybe your undergrad debt is so high you need to work a few more years to pay it off before going back to grad school or sometimes you take the corporate job because you were overzealous with our loan money. No financial aid officer is going to tell you to be realistic about your finances. It's not their job to. They are just there to process your loan, so take a cold hard look at your personal financial situation.
The fact of the matter is post K-12 education is not an entitlement in this country, and students should not view it as such.
It's pointless to complain about negativity on the internet. The internet world is well beyond that tipping point. I was just stating that the theory is true.
"Responsible amount of debt" sounds like a phrase that came straight out of a high school guidance counselor or even a college level professor pretending to give good advice.Same people who told you that student loan debt is "good debt". Bullshit. People generally give advice based on their experience and their experience seems much more rewarding and validated when they can find others who have the same experience. Alcoholics Anonymous would not have a gajillion members if this group belonging mentality didn't have a powerful effect. If you're going to take on debt,I would recommend not taking anymore than you can pay back in one year and if you're going to take a lot, make sure someone else is paying for it. Second what quentin said.
Truth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Aug 3, 12 10:31 pm ·
·
Grad school does have some worth but the challenge is weighing that against an evolving economy. America, for example, has been a generally growing economy since WWII and that has shaped many peoples' expectations. In a growing economic environment it can be useful to advance oneself through schooling (even worthwhile to take on debt) because opportunities are expanding.
Unfortunately, today's economy might very well be in the midst of a nasty paradigm shift where growth is no longer the norm. In a stagnant economy, mere survival becomes most important. And debt can be downright debilitating. And the thing that is really begining to set in and scare the shit out of people is that the economy might remain stagnant for decades, possibly the rest of their lives.
i went to grad school so i could get licensed, so... as soon as a job comes around and IDP starts accumulating i guess it would be worth it. still, i feel like i'm just as unskilled in the potential workplace as my bs-arch buddies i graduated with.
3 times now, i've "had" a job with my former employer. "we might be starting a new project next week"... and every time they tell me its like they jinx it and the project's a no-go.
Wurdan is right on the money. There is no "good" or "bad" debt. There is just debt and in today's climate I wouldn't want to owe anything to anyone. Any kind of debt locks people into situations they may not be comfortable with for many years.
good debt is debt you make money on. an education used to be good debt because the return was greater than the cost of the loan plus various fees and interest and such. A college education got you a better job with higher earnings than a job you could get without.. of course that may not be the case anymore.
another example is a bank taking out a 0% interest loan and using that money to invest in treasury bonds at 3%. that's good debt because the bank makes more than they're spending on that debt.
bad debt is financing a car our a couch. you will never get the cost of financing/interest back.
A postgraduate education with debt has a net worth of $326,814.13.
A postgraduate education with no debt has a net worth of $368,197.74.
A postgraduate education, where the money spent on loan payments was invested, has a net worth of $1,198,941.07.
A high-school education with no debt has a net worth of $188,084.52.
Realistically, we can assume that the net value of a postgraduate education is between $138,729.61 to $180,113.22.
However, a high-school graduate can work roughly 7 years longer than someone pursuing a postgraduate education— if one were to adjust for this discrepancy, the real value is a net worth of $25,666.84 to $67,050.46.
This makes the follow assumptions:
A starting salary of $50,000 with a pay raise of $5,000 for gaining licensure for postgraduate education
A 30-year consolidated loan with 6% interest for $100,000
Annual pay raises of 1%
Investing 5% of your monthly income into a moderate-risk portfolio with 6% return
No other assets are counted, all other income is treated as disposable
Diploma holder starts out at roughly $30,000 a year
All income values are gross not net
No promotions or bonuses are calculated, this assumes no upwards mobility
I finally got my MS Arch degree in the mail. It's just sitting in my closet inside of the envelope it came in, right next to my B. Arch envelope.
If I hadn't gotten that MS Arch, I probably would have had to leave the profession altogether. I'm still undecided as to whether or not that would have been a bad thing.
"A postgraduate education, where the money spent on loan payments was invested, has a net worth of $1,198,941.07."
Invested in what? a house? stocks? Either case, this would not be true in today's economy and you would probably be at a net loss, so I will say these numbers are pretty much bogus.
Curtkram is right. Education is an investment (for me a worthwhile one). There are costs and benefits, and there are risks (not finding a job in a recession is one of them).
Don't let the risks deter you, but at the same time invest wisely and within reason...and if don't know what within reason is, then debt to annual earnings is a good place to start.
Aug 7, 12 9:22 pm ·
·
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How much value is a grad school really worth in today's economy?
After completing undergrad and spending 3 years working I started grad school in 2007 & found a new job that gave me a nice bump in salary. Since then, I've graduated & gotten LEED certified, yet no significant pay increase. Not that I am complaining because I have a great job with a level of security, which many people are not fortunate enough to have. However, considering the student loan crisis, current state of the economy; and weighing it against the future of our profession - how valuable is a grad school education? And is it wise for states to require the professional degree for licensure? Some states allow a 4-year degree plus 8 years experience. It's taken me 6 years to get all of my IDP hours in all the categories. Management hours are hard to come by when management level people aren't retiring and vacating positions for younger staff to move into. 2 year masters plus 6 years IDP equals 8 years plus another 40k for education that I wouldn't have spent otherwise. I did become a better designer through grad school. I would have become a better technical guy if I kept working. Right now, I'd still do it again. But maybe it's time for NCARB to reconsider their educational requirements, because while I became a better designer, I don't know that I learned a damn thing that helped me protect human welfare that I wouldn't have learned by staying at work. Thoughts?
Only from my point of perspective, which is NO job since obtainingh my Masters in 2008, I'd have to say that The M.ARCH is worthless. You should be grateful. Almost nobody should get one these days.
I want to say it's worthless because I'm a little bitter about the loans I owe and the fact I'm not being compensated any more for having my Master's. However I don't think I could have gotten the job I do have if I didn't have an M.ARCH. How is someone without an M.ARCH supposed to compete for entry level jobs with M.ARCH candidates?
Well I have a 4yr degree and no arch job and people tell me to go get my masters so??? People always think grass is greener. You seem fournate as you founda good and steady employment.
I don't see much value in grad school for architecture. If you want to teach then it's a necessity, but IMHO 4 years is more than enough. I don't know why anyone would think spending an extra 40k plus on top of UG would be a good idea to help them get a 25k job.
Take that 40k and become a producer instead of someone who thinks that because they spent this money someone else needs to give them a job. Learn how to create jobs and you will be unstoppable. Degree doesn't mean shit.
...and I have my Masters.
Not to harp on anybody's situation, but I think the theory is true that the internet is 99% discontent, which is why I have stayed away from this website for a while.
I will offer a different opinion which I posted on the student loan thread. Someone gave me this advice before I started grad school, and having stuck to this rule of thumb (it definitely wasn't easy), but it made my degree worthwhile economically as well as personally. I won't disclose how much I make, but my grad degree led to better earnings for me:
Short of transforming the system, there are steps individuals can take to avoid financial disillusionment. The happy medium is called RESPONSIBLE DEBT, and this is usually defined as not taking on any school debt beyond what you anticipate making your first year out of said school (it's relative for different professions, but the rule of thumb applies to all professions). Realistically for architects, 35-40k is a responsible amount of debt for an undergraduate degree in architecture. 60-80k (total school debt including undergrad) is a responsible amount of debt for someone with a grad degree, but it's also your responsibility to go out and find a job that pays you that much out of school, not just do underpaid work somewhere and scowl at the system (you are at least 50% responsible for being underpaid) .
Unfortunately this involves compromise. Sometimes it's not responsible for you to go to the ivy league school that you got accepted to, but weren't able to secure a scholarship for or maybe your undergrad debt is so high you need to work a few more years to pay it off before going back to grad school or sometimes you take the corporate job because you were overzealous with our loan money. No financial aid officer is going to tell you to be realistic about your finances. It's not their job to. They are just there to process your loan, so take a cold hard look at your personal financial situation.
The fact of the matter is post K-12 education is not an entitlement in this country, and students should not view it as such.
"internet is 99% discontent, which is why I have stayed away from this website for a while."
Complaining about negativity is kind of negative of you, Tim Don't.
rusty puttin some wd-40 on it.
but Tim's points are valid.
It's pointless to complain about negativity on the internet. The internet world is well beyond that tipping point. I was just stating that the theory is true.
Tim your point is null if you can't find a job.
"Responsible amount of debt" sounds like a phrase that came straight out of a high school guidance counselor or even a college level professor pretending to give good advice.Same people who told you that student loan debt is "good debt". Bullshit. People generally give advice based on their experience and their experience seems much more rewarding and validated when they can find others who have the same experience. Alcoholics Anonymous would not have a gajillion members if this group belonging mentality didn't have a powerful effect. If you're going to take on debt,I would recommend not taking anymore than you can pay back in one year and if you're going to take a lot, make sure someone else is paying for it. Second what quentin said.
Truth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Grad school does have some worth but the challenge is weighing that against an evolving economy. America, for example, has been a generally growing economy since WWII and that has shaped many peoples' expectations. In a growing economic environment it can be useful to advance oneself through schooling (even worthwhile to take on debt) because opportunities are expanding.
Unfortunately, today's economy might very well be in the midst of a nasty paradigm shift where growth is no longer the norm. In a stagnant economy, mere survival becomes most important. And debt can be downright debilitating. And the thing that is really begining to set in and scare the shit out of people is that the economy might remain stagnant for decades, possibly the rest of their lives.
Plan accordingly & good luck, yo!
depends on your sales pitch
quentin & wuden, I think you guys missed my point entirely. good luck out there. i mean it.
i went to grad school so i could get licensed, so... as soon as a job comes around and IDP starts accumulating i guess it would be worth it. still, i feel like i'm just as unskilled in the potential workplace as my bs-arch buddies i graduated with.
3 times now, i've "had" a job with my former employer. "we might be starting a new project next week"... and every time they tell me its like they jinx it and the project's a no-go.
Wurdan is right on the money. There is no "good" or "bad" debt. There is just debt and in today's climate I wouldn't want to owe anything to anyone. Any kind of debt locks people into situations they may not be comfortable with for many years.
Worth about a nickel.
good debt is debt you make money on. an education used to be good debt because the return was greater than the cost of the loan plus various fees and interest and such. A college education got you a better job with higher earnings than a job you could get without.. of course that may not be the case anymore.
another example is a bank taking out a 0% interest loan and using that money to invest in treasury bonds at 3%. that's good debt because the bank makes more than they're spending on that debt.
bad debt is financing a car our a couch. you will never get the cost of financing/interest back.
A postgraduate education with debt has a net worth of $326,814.13.
A postgraduate education with no debt has a net worth of $368,197.74.
A postgraduate education, where the money spent on loan payments was invested, has a net worth of $1,198,941.07.
A high-school education with no debt has a net worth of $188,084.52.
Realistically, we can assume that the net value of a postgraduate education is between $138,729.61 to $180,113.22.
However, a high-school graduate can work roughly 7 years longer than someone pursuing a postgraduate education— if one were to adjust for this discrepancy, the real value is a net worth of $25,666.84 to $67,050.46.
This makes the follow assumptions:
I finally got my MS Arch degree in the mail. It's just sitting in my closet inside of the envelope it came in, right next to my B. Arch envelope.
If I hadn't gotten that MS Arch, I probably would have had to leave the profession altogether. I'm still undecided as to whether or not that would have been a bad thing.
"A postgraduate education, where the money spent on loan payments was invested, has a net worth of $1,198,941.07."
Invested in what? a house? stocks? Either case, this would not be true in today's economy and you would probably be at a net loss, so I will say these numbers are pretty much bogus.
Curtkram is right. Education is an investment (for me a worthwhile one). There are costs and benefits, and there are risks (not finding a job in a recession is one of them).
Don't let the risks deter you, but at the same time invest wisely and within reason...and if don't know what within reason is, then debt to annual earnings is a good place to start.
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