actually i'm the one who said a work of art doesnt have to be beautiful.

It don't have to , if two pieces together make it work , then the single item don't nessery have to be nice. Beside beauty display by it's own rule ,if you first need to grasp that all sorts of issues are the subject for arts, then the average piece just need to act a messeage even just it's own.

This thread is ridiculously fun. I think sevensixfive hit it right on:

...stuff costs less if you make a lot of it. But if each shape's unique then it's gonna cost more...

Let's hear Kant dispute that.

".stuff costs less if you make a lot of it. But if each shape's unique then it's gonna cost more..."

Not nessery, maybe yestoday not today.

liberty that is only true if your system of mechanics are based out of the concept of duplicity. If however it weren't then it would be possible. Consider the potential for CAM made products, every item has a value to is a perfectly dimensioned piece, and thus the manufacture can be accurately determined (without duplicity). If all those things are rational why would the cost be any higher. Think the economy of Gehry's work - his spin has always to produce it make it affordable (granted the titanium skins are kinda pricy)

Only if it is nice. "The sound of one hand clapping"

rationalism is a philosophy from the enlightenment and everybody knows that kant was a romantic.

Hmmm... I am lost guys.

I should be working on my Thesis but this discussion is quite intriguing...

Nietzsche saw reality as an endless Becoming - in his view the plastic arts deny the actuality of becoming with the illusion of timeless beauty.

to add to that, it would seem that those who aspire or hope to attain a higher state of life after Death havent really seen anything beautiful in their lives.

architcehno - My understanding of CAM production is that someone still needs to input the parameters for each object - so you're either paying a draftsman to draw one shape, or 400 different shapes. If the machine is defining the parameters itself, that minimizes the draftsman's time, but someone has to write the program - for either one shape, or 400 shapes.

I may be wrong, I haven't actually seen a production rig like a CAM since some very early generation resin ones about 15 years go.

Or -- if you just for one tiny moment realised beauty exist , then knowing what beauty is ,why shuld this be the end of wonders.

Then not knowing the unique ,if everything is just average , why shuld heaven exist ,except maybe we already live in that other place....

"but someone has to write the program - for either one shape, or 400 shapes."

Sorry L.B. but I just have to say that with 3D-H you just press a key and then the program generate the exact information to cut 400 compleatly different shaped building frames.

Well of course per, no machine I've ever seen as been similar to 3D-H. That's understood.

yeah, but, liberty with all of the force moving towards "generative architecture" or whatever it is now, can you not forsee a time - and it may be now - that an algorithm is inputed once into a computer and that computer generates all of the forms|shapes you need?

Beta -- sorry to interupt -- but exactly that option is what from my point of view, is one of today's and future challance ; why do we see this as a soulless automated process, why not see it as new oppotunities with new tools , a creative process that we could dream of just few years ago without realy knowing what this will mean, how it maybe rather expand the creativity than become a limitation.

May I put my two cents in by saying that something that many seem to forget or disregard is the fact the people inhabit these spaces we create. I think it is here that the danger lies. In forgetting the human scale factor, human perception, sociological, emotional, and psychological implications of these spaces we so artfully create.

I am in no way diminishing the power of the computer and a generative tool for innovative form, but we must never fail to acknowledge, accept and appreciate the need to design with the thought of the user experience and the use of fundamental architectural principles. Line, space, form, volume, scale, repitition, light, and the list goes on... It is within these fundamentals that mastering the craft of new design processes should be based.

vindpust, If I may...
architecture is not about finding new tools and exploring new processes .

Architecture is about creating better buildings/structures/shelter in all due respects of the same. ( with whatever tools /process one may employ at that moment )

Sure no argue about that. --- but most of the old already been tested and the best way to progress then must be just there.

Architecture is all about finding new tools and exploring new processes. As long as its nice.

beta, when the cell-sized building bots can assemble the CNC-fabricated shape-blocks that are the output of the algorithm that one draftsman has input, then yes.

But really I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Is it realy so difficult?
The cell is the cell multiply by the cell.

Say when.

Per-

You have a certain gift of concise, simple statements containing big ideas we are seeing new in this thread. I think you should use this form of arguement in defense of your work - it is much more effective for making your ideas come accross. Like a journalist writes, the idea is present as simple as possible.

I thunk I got that....right the algore-rythum seems to have grown since being Vice President.....thinking maybe he was really a super man want to be....then hell he had the Presidential Race stripped from him from a guy who might pass himself off as a bad employee,cause he likes to wear cowboy boots and italian loafers. I just don't kow if really it is just that one draftsman which is the problem I waould tend to thunk it was the al gore rythum which has come in to efffect.

Ya I do thunk so.

cume to think of ut wasn't he the guy who did that deconstructive dance the call the maggie ronine. , which was based upon Hawiian mondernistic principals.

Tom Mayne started as a post modernist, then a decon, now what? Supertexturalist?

Did the pioneers of International Style, Modernism, Post Modernism and the like, not take a critical look of the "ancient" architecture of their time and redefine the definition of Architectural form space and order? How much changed in those days with the advent of industrialization? Has industrial design advanced or changed? Of course it has.

Similarly our industry/craft, must find creative ways to use the technologies we have to continue to be the pioneers of what we do. I think we are on the right track. We just have to continue to think, create and build.

All within the parameters of practicality, constructability, delight/serendipity, and the overall impact on the built environment.

For the firts time today I lived the experience of police tear gas.
Anarchist from a BZ cell and police invated my home streets. Fires all over Copenhagen witness a corrupt town hall and a generation of youth, robbed the money that the town set aside for youth work, Since police this morning stormed the anarkists youth house the intire town been a war zone with fires and tead gas, outside my windows tear gas make it impossible to be, I live at street level right across one of the huge fires. police right outside my windows carry gas masks

And all they need is a new house.

Be careful Per.

Is the galleri silver screen in harms way?

Hmmm, I never realized before: cobblestone streets = instant riot ammunition.

Be careful, per.

LOL..architecture must blaze ! !

sounds quite scary, Per.

Not realy scary, the riods could extend over the weekend, sadly I was nearly out of pover on my camera and lost the video I thoutht to have cached --- no the Silver Screen Galleri is out of harms way , for some reson they emty the gargeage containers and garden furniture out in the streets to make fires , place a few heavy fire crakers mixed in so to explode when the fires reach a few meters, but even the grafitti fence are a wooden one , they picked on a few cars they turned over end egnited and didn't touch the wooden fence --- ofcaurse had they done so, there would been no fence around christiania freestate.
Waiting for the next night ,but there are a cirtain pattern to it and after the police arrest a few hundred things seem to calm down.

Guess it is difficult to understand but this whole scene join together --- my support is not by the stone throwing crowd ofcaurse ,and they are mainly just lowlifes raving in a mixed drunk and dope lose groupe , But fact is that the youth groups and the citicen of copenhagen all been lured by a corrupt town hall and political interests and yes -- there are an overflow of office buildings everywhere and plenty of fonds to go around investing the town's money in new spetacular projects and at the same time they give away a building worth ten millions , the same building they once gave to the young people , that building now belong to an obscure cristian church while these probelms seem to be handled by instantly currupted politics and while all this, there are a growing demand for new flats , on christiania and on any spot where it ispossible to build --- but building , delivering the needs seem to be the least issue.
Only one thing is for sure, who to blame a corrupted town administration and their personal interests in all these cases that is making this whole town a war zone.

Do this relate in any way to architecture --- I think so.

A group calling themself " the fraction of disilusioned copenhagen citicen" just occupied the party headquater of the social-democrats and from their protest you can read the core problems. It is not just the autonome , the BZ. or the Anarkists that suffer by the curropted politics the personal interests one silli plitician had, giving the money set aside for youth work to a grumpy cristian church counting at most 50 belivers of the dark forces -- we all suffer and no cheap new buildings are the result. Guess it is much like the 1920-30 where hate grow while millitary profit, now what profit are pictured by spetacular enourmous glass monsters, new museums, new Opera, new useless but core academic brigdes , and while all that, I chace rats, my naibours chace rats the old slums are re apearing and rats occupy kitchens and houses , they do where I live. So do this have to do with architecture or politics --- I say it have to do with architecture.

There certainly has been some emotions brewing in European cities in recent years. I hope its not indicitive of something larger forming.
Look at the grafiti in the background - when i recently was in Paris I was shocked by the grafiti. Its like bombed NYC in the early 80's. Whats going on over there?

As I said ; tonns of office, museum Opera spaces not cheap cosy ,safe ,strong new flats or houses. Old hippies act the dead end, and shuld be offered new ,better cheaper flats , so they could be moved and the 700 square meters they occupy, could be torn down -- so new healty houses and jobs for the young , atleast a flat they can pay.
That's what is wrong, how it happened is no concern and was due to advarage stupidity and pover misuse --- these reactions are natural knowing, that all the money the city did not spend, in the end was given to an evil cristian kult .
Today I realised that a lot of the participant, or people just being there in the crowd where one or two suddenly throw a stone is spectators by atleast a third, the rest seem to be foto hobbyists taking pictures with mobil phones.
So one or two lame doped or drunk psykopats can acturly terror an intire city , for some reson even some of them can't walk from Dope or drunk, they maneage and is realy few , of the crowds I participated But as long as so obvious lies and wrong doing are allowed or entered by a corrupt town hall , when it is allowed that the money for youth's work are spended at expensive exotics timbers in offices at the town hall, when halve of one year's spendings of schools maintainments are used for a luxory office , then.

And during all this, even less are started or rendered, not even the solutions for the other youth's problems ; jobs, education a cheap place to live build in rugid 3D-H. None of these challances was ever met, by the way the city hall handled this and saved money by redirecting them to hell for the good intrests.

Now I don't say 3D-H will solve all the problems But fact is that in copenhagen , solving majority of these issues, christiania the free state, shuld provide the core solutions.
All these money need to be used, and the best way is to make others do it, so offering the newthinking and creative eco thinking resolution. By offering to build even more and with a better economy and a bundh of new jobs making the Mayors look glossy.
This is no tale.