I'm a phd applicant ... I think I may have mentioned my research in the school blog section ...

Just to clarify..."Ph.D. Candidate" is a phrase with a specific meaning--if you tell people you're a Ph.D. candidate, it means you've completed your preliminary work/exams, and have been admitted to "candidacy," otherwise know as being ABD (All But Dissertation).

I think my two bits of advice would be thus: 1) get everything--and I mean everything--in your life in order, because you won't have time to pay any attention to the world outside of academia any time in the near future; 2) take a speed reading class. Well, not really...although it couldn't hurt. It's just that I've heard several of my colleagues admit that they were surprised that they were required to read all the time. I think students on the technologies track probably read less than those of us on the theory track, but I wouldn't count on it.

It's a lot different than a design program, but it's a whole lot of fun if you like to read and write.

I'm a little different than Smokes--he likes to look (see his school blog), I like to move through space with my gaze averted... Anyway, I'm just finishing my coursework on the history and theory track, and will start taking exams in the fall. I work on postcolonial theory and (South Asian) architecture--the built environment/cultural landscape underpinning my disseration is the jantar mantar observatories in northern India (Delhi, Jaipur, Ujjain, Varanasi, Mathura)

I'm doing a phd also... and I don't really think you have to sacrifice all life outside of academia as snjr says. You also have to accept the fact that you can't read everything that you would like to or that some professor recommends you do.

those of you that are currently pursuing your phd... did you go into the beginning of the program knowing exactly what you are going to do your dissertation on? or just a general idea of the topic that you're going to investigate?

agree with you on that javier.

i am doing phd (in tokyo), and try to also have family and job. is not easy, but so far ok.

knowing what NOT to read (and include in dissertation) is as important as finding all the good stuff...i am lucky, in my school the professors expect us to create our own data sets based on field work, so can justify not reading absolutely everything possibly related to topic...still, it is hard to shake the feeling that there are books or articles out there that would make my dissertation better...on other hand, like design, there comes a time when you have to stop designing/rethinking the project and you go with what you have...not doing this leads to over-dense text and weak arguments...problem as usual is to know when you hae enough...

architphil,

i began believing i knew exactly what i would do...we had to do a presentation on the topic etc...but it has changed considerably over the last few years...for the better. i think as research progresses it is inevitable that the direction will change as you learn new things...

thanks for all the info/advice... where do most of you go? are your programs pretty small? what do you plan on doing once you get your phd?

also- are any of you published? if so, where were you published? and is this a requirement of your program?

I'm earning a Ph.D. in one state while living in another, so I suspect my "no life" might be caused by travel/time zone issues that you probably won't have to deal with (I hope). Still, it is definitely true that even if I wasn't commuting, I'd feel as if I could be reading and writing more. I think it also depends on what kind of research you're doing. Jump mentions data sets and fieldwork, which is something people on the cultural/behavioral factors track at my school would be working with, but those of us on the history and theory track would not be dealing with data sets.

I didn't have any publications going in, unless you count book reviews in 2nd/3rd tier journals. We're expected to have published before finishing the degree, and I have two articles under review at the moment (but don't really anticipate publishing either). I only had conference presentations in my field before applying.

I had a general idea of what I was doing when I applied (ie., something with postcolonial studies, India and science), but only came to my dissertation proposal after working through a few other ideas. 2 of the 3 other members of my cohort have changed focus quite drastically since finishing their first year of coursework.

do any of you receive funding/stipend/assistantships? i know in other fields nearly everyone is getting funding... but how does it work in architecture?

I'm currently working on my Player Haters Degree as well.

not sure how it works in states, +i, but my studies are on full scholarship plus monthly living stipend...not quite enough to live on with family, but more than enough if single...which is why i work. my prof also helped by getting me an additional scholarship, and a RA job in his undergrad studio. so get by, but just barely.

extra duties/schedule makes the studies more difficult, but what can ya do, eh...

writing is indeed a bitch. i am very envious of people who can sit down and just write like it is a pleasure...but for me i much prefer the fieldwork, the interviews, the analysis of map, the questionnaires...and the theory that hangs it all together...putting it together on paper for others to read is an enormous pain...especially as my field is not one that planners like to hear about, so i have to be extra rigorous (i am studying suburbia...they hate it here too).

re: social life... My philosophy on this is that the phd process should be kind of a mirror of the rest of your career... You'll always have a lot of work to do, interesting things to attend, stuff to read & write and it shouldn't prevent you from living out other facets of your life. In fact, our dept. chair is always pretty adamant that we should lead a balanced life...of course it's up to you what you consider to be "balanced."

re: dissertation topic... I'm still pretty far off from my dissertation but I came to my program (link) with a certain sense of what I wanted to do... They (i.e. the department's cheiftains) say we're supposed to be more focused if we already have a master's which I did, though sometimes it feels like I'm pretty lost ;) (!)

re: funds... As far as money goes...yeah...tough issue... I'm getting funding from Berkeley and from some internal sources... Will probably apply next year for some research funds and later for a dissertation fellowship.... If I am on time with my exams and everything Berkeley gives phd students a chunk of money to supposedly write for at least 9 or 10 months... And part of my "contract" is to teach sections for a semester each year. Might have to seek a few more teaching jobs to make a little bit extra dough. I also do freelance writing from time to time though that's more for the challenge than the money cus the pay is nothing spectacular... And if anyone has any summer positions available...let me know!

re: publishing... I had also published an article before my application which I think helps though it's not a hard and fast rule...

finally, i would say that the most important thing before applying is to meet in person or at least via email with faculty that you think are interesting and you should have some idea on why you are looking into their program in particular... It took me a while to look and figure out what I wanted. I finally decided to apply somewhere outside of an architecture department which I think has worked out ok thus far... Many departments are interested in architectural/urbanism/urban cultures issues and some architecture departments can be somewhat onerous with their rules or they can have a certain eurocentric bent to theory which is troubling... and here I am referring to programs in the U.S....can't speak of what's going on in Japan or Mexico or India or elsewhere...

I'm on fellowship, which provides a tuition/fee waiver plus a monthly stiped. Summer tuition is also waived, but I've been off doing other things, on other funding, during the summer, not taking courses. If the timing is right, I intend to apply for a junior fellowship from AIIS to support extended research in India. I may need one year of dissertation-writing funding, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

One reason (okay, the only reason) I didn't go to Berkeley is that the funding offered by the Architecture program wasn't that great. Even the named fellowship I was awarded wouldn't have covered all of the tuition/fees.

thank you for your info/advice/experiences... even what little is posted here is a huge help

Javier,

Could you fill us in a little bit about your program in the Geography Department? Is it part of the Center for Global Metropolitan Studies? I'm interested in eventually looking into some urban geography programs, but with just a little bit of googling I haven't really been able to find a whole lot of information. The websites of most geography departments (at least the few that I've looked at so far) seem to be very poor and lacking in info.

Thanks.

+i--are you applying to Ph.D. programs? Maybe if you told us a little about what you're looking forward to, we could give better/more relevant advice?

architphil,

Yeah..certainly... I'm not a part of the Center for Global Metropolitan Studies... Maybe I am more provincial! That program is just in its infnacy and they're starting to find new faculty. It looks promising. Let's see...so, the program in geography is a mixture of students... Some people (about 40%) do physical geography (climate change, glaciology, etc) and the larger portion of students are in the so-called human geography part. There are people that veer more towards the social sciences and others that are perhaps more oriented towards visual and spatial stuff. There are some faculty that work on cities and regions, while others are teach courses in fields like development studies, Marx, etc. It's a nice mix. Some faculty are part of other centers, like Latin American studies or African Studies or have co-appointments in other departments. I personally study military landscapes and their re-incorporation into the city. I guess that I would fall into the urban geography camp. If you're interested in questions about urban form, landscape, why cities rise and fall, urban cultures, etc geography is a great field. It can be hard to track down the good programs. I guess a lot of people that share my interests also look into programs in urban planning/urban studies... There is great variety out there. I think it's just a matter of finding the right faculty for you... I could name a few but I think I wouldn't know where to stop.

I often wonder if I should have applied to a History of Art PhD program in lieu of an Architecture PhD program ....

Just thinking out loud.

Smokes--could you do an outside minor (or exam field, or whatever they call it at your future institution) in Art History?

.. one question guys..

i am planing to apply for a phd in arhcitecutre or urban design, i checked the european schools and there are many who pay you to have the phd ex. TU Delft where they pay you around 2200euos gross (around 1600euro net)... so i am wondering if the same applies in the united states..???

snjr, i just recently applied to phd programs in architecture: i specifically hope to study post-disaster reconstruction (i have had my research published on rebuilding sri lanka). i took out a lot of loans for undergrad work, and i really want to try to take out as few as possible for further academic study, thats why i asked about funding. i am hoping to continue this research, not as a purely theoretical endeavor, but with serious consequences and implementation: ie., id like to get funding to actually work in these areas... i approached my applications with a semi-directed focus= i know what i want to study and what type of direction i would like to go in... however, i know there are many things encountered in the phd process that could change/persuade me into other directions...

+i--I'm not sure what your advisors have told you, but mine told me the following: if you are accepted into a Ph.D. program, great. If you are accepted into a Ph.D. program w/out funding, don't go. I'd be curious to hear from others about this. I expected any program that REALLY wanted me to fund me, either with a fellowship or T.A. position, but maybe that's not common practice in architecture, I don't know.

i do not recommend paying out of pocket or taking out loans. i personally would not do it. in a way, a phd is academia reproducing itself. lately i think more departments have been making offers without funding, and i find that obscene. society needs education and needs academic institutions. it's hard work and it's a considerable investment if you even start to think about how your labor could be commodified in other ways and you'd be already saving for retirement, if you want to look at it in economic terms. and if the dept doesn't offer funding in some combination of work and fellowship...consider repharsing your inquiry and applying to another department. +i... do you have a masters? i don't know very much about your approach or your interest but i wonder in how many different ways you could go about doing this disaster relief stuff. would a phd get you anything? as you mention, you might also end up going in a totally different direction or questioning "relief" itself. so do you want to open that can of worms? if so, do the phd...my hunch is you might also want to consider a masters if you haven't done one yet... although for that u might have to take out loans actually...

FYI ... I was accepted to Michigan's PhD program today.

Big Congrats!! That's where David Scobey teaches...? Who are you going to work with?

I will probably be working with Claire Zimmerman (History of Art/Arch), Andrew Herscher (History of Art/Arch), Akiko Takenaka (History of Art), and Geoff Eley (Hist).

Nice work! I don't know if you roll post-colonialist, but Will Glover is great as is Ed Dimendberg for German Studies/Film (if he's still there). Beware of the research methods class - are you Art History or Architecture?

Excellent, Smokes, congratulations! Are you waiting on other schools, or is this exactly where you want to be?

Janosh ... I'm kinda 50/50. Although I am officially affiliated with TCAUP, my proposed topic certainly straddles both realms. I think Ed Dimendberg is now at UC-Irvine ... I think.

snjr ... waiting on three other schools. Very excited about the possibility of attending UM, though.

i would agree with javier - i am paying my way this year but if i dont get funding for the remaining bit[about 3 years] - i am switching institutions - i know i can get funding in the states or even other schools in the uk - i see lots of phds that when i ask myself - 'so what' and are fully funded but i lack the insight to really believe what that research is pursueing has any relavance to anything. in someways thats the nature of a phd.

in the uk generally there are two tracks for funding: reseach council for UKhome students and overseas funding [but anyone looking to come to uk should look at marshall scholarships]. if you are eu and presently not living in the uk, you can only get funded for tuition. i am a ukhome student-and the funding would be for full tuition + stipend of £14,000 which is enough to survieve in uk with little supplemental income. there are a growing number of phd with a private funding arrangement that you works / study / fund. to really get funding here, you have to have full support of the faculty first before it goes up to the next level. its a system that benifits those who do a masters at the instition they are applying to first then pursue a phd.

for me there was no question to be out of the US for my phd work. government/public policy drives funding across all academic discliplines and as much as one looks for new paradigms within their work you build/contecturalize it upon the body of past research. we all understand how $$$ effects politicians with lobbying groups. i think the same can be said with research. anyone in the US looking to pursue material/new technology research - only go to the dept of def web site and see whats on offer - then go look for those sites or funding opportunities anywhere else - lets say energy as the eyes of the rest of the world are focused on that? you see patterns that if the energy research has a use as a machine of war - it gets funded.

you could do a phd part time here also which many do - i would suggest at least 1 year full time and sort out in detail your project - i was just offered a full time teaching gig outside my school so if i dont get funded i can teach and do my phd at the same time [as i am superman i would continue my phd on a full time basis]

just a couple quick questions. i am intrigued by this all of the phd's and the talk on the site, and i am curious as to what made you decide to go this route? how did you know that a phd is for you? how can i evaluate whether or not i am made of the right stuff? now, i don't even have a masters yet, want to get the license finished, then masters, but i am always left wondering do i have anything else to say after the masters? i would prefer to teach, but i am just not sure if i am "good enough" to pursue a phd. perhaps a healthy sense of doubt is good to maintain a level a critical introspection?

I applied to PhD programs because, quite simply, I want to teach and do research at the university level. I am not an architect by training -- I have degrees in law and urban planning -- but I knew that I wanted to go in a more academic direction with my architecture interests.

If you look at all the web materials for PhD programs, you'll notice that they require a professional degree in architecture or its equivalent. I do see the value in the required architecture background -- yet the requirement is not exactly iron-clad. Two years ago, I did visit PhD programs and was told that I did not have the requisite academic experience (this, after having completed one graduate degree and near-completing another). Fortunately, I did apply to some research-oriented master's programs, and that's how I ended up where I am now.

So, unlike jump, Javier, or snjr, I had to play a bit of "catch-up." I had never taken a studio, looked at archival material, or really engaged in any type of serious architectural research. It's really interesting ... as I am putting the finishing touches on my thesis, I am a little taken aback by exactly how much "catch up" work I really did complete. I still have a lot more of catching up, though. I don't think this process will end for me. And I'm okay with that.

I think that you'll get differing opinions on the necessity of a PhD for teaching, say, studio. I have encountered plenty of professors here on the East Coast that have both an M.Arch and a PhD. On the other hand, I have also encountered people with only M.Arch's who engage in some serious academic research (i.e. Dolores Hayden, Caroline Constant, and others). I'm not sure where I personally fall in that issue because I see myself more as a writer than a designer. Also, all of the doctoral programs I applied to have strong links to History of Art programs -- and perhaps that, if anything, is a true indicator of my decision to pursue a PhD: I would like to teach in both Architecture and History of Art programs.

dolores hayden is only an m.arch? wow. i enjoyed her book on building suburbia (though not so much the recent photo-book of witty classifications) ...some nice insights.

i am doing phd because i wanted to research a topic i am interested in..and because it is a challenge. the teaching thing may or may not be important, but for me has never been an explicit goal. odd maybe. but the idea of turning down education just seems so alien to me so when the opportunity arose i took it. no regrets.

catch up is a big issue for me too smokety. i took courses on research methods in undergrad like everyone else, and those have been helpful, but learning to see and think and produce as an academic has been a real challenge. the process has thankfully removed most of the archi-babble from my system, but it has not been easy. i think archi-school, from that perspective, is a kind of hindrance to doing real academic work. based on the education we get it is more easy to become a polemicist than a real researcher. so maybe you are lucky to have taken the path you did...

jump: You are doing the phd in Tokyo, right ?! I´m into searching for universities in the Asian Area with specialization in Urban Studies / Landscape Urbanism / Asian Research (Own background is Landscape Planning /urban Design/urban Sociology)...so far i´ve found and thought about:

Hong KOng University CUPEM
National University of Singapore Asian Research Institute....

How good are universities in Tokyo in that field, can you recommend me any ?

thks :-)

(Re: Smokety: So, unlike jump, Javier, or snjr, I had to play a bit of "catch-up." I had never taken a studio, looked at archival material, or really engaged in any type of serious architectural research.) catching up!? I bypassed the whole architecture HTC route (I'm in geography now) and threw myself into a whole other research field. So...bottom line is that we're all always playing catch up... Doing a PhD seems to be all about carving a certain niche that few have researched and perhaps none have really dissected in the particular way you want to do so... That's what's kind of scary about it.
(Re: beta: i am intrigued by this all of the phd's and the talk on the site, and i am curious as to what made you decide to go this route?) My route was somewhat accidental. I guess that I was doing my research masters which was somewhat of a fluke decision... cus I had also been admitted to design programs (MArch, MAUD) but got a better offer from MIT. And I just figured that I needed more time to read and to get a solid foundation... I don't know... I guess I wanted to tie together certain things that go beyond design...politics, economics, social ideas and be able to teach that later... As far as the architect/theoretician route... I have got to say that I admire someone like Reinhold Martin who sustains a research/writing/academic career and also has a practice. It's kind of masochistic.

Smokes, do you think we all feel like we need to catch up? Yeah, I had a good research background, but my design background still feels inadequate. I don't have a professional design degree, just a two-year degree. It got me into a firm as a CAD monkey, and I ended up getting valuable experience there. But I've never had the true studio experience, and I'll never be able to teach design (not that I want to, but I think it would make me more employable in the end).

I deliberately avoided applying to Art History programs, even though I have an M.A. in Art History, because I felt like the never-ending emphasis on visual culture was really stifling me (ask me some time about the argument I got into with Svetlana Alpers about the tyranny of vision, it wasn't pretty!). But I think that background in Art History really helped me make the transition to a research-intensive environment.

betadine: I've always intended to teach at a university, so the Ph.D. was the logical goal. On the other hand, I'm pretty aware of the instability of the academic job market, so my outside minor is Cultural Heritage Management. That opens up a lot more possibilities for consulting/international heritage work if academia doesn't want me in a few years.

tempo01,

i don't know an awful lot about schools here. a large part of choosing a school was for me based on reputation. the university of tokyo is ranked number one in japan, and the professors are all of high pedigree, and that made getting my scholarship much much easier than if i had chosen another school. i did speak to other professors at other unis, but i was advised to go to my current school for professional reasons, if i could swing it...which is what i did.

as it happens my professor is one of the few architects at my school who is interested in urban planning in a real way, and his approach to the topic was/is quite similar to my own. so was an easy choice. getting my professor to agree to take me on was much harder.

apart from my own school, the university of chiba seems to have some interesting research going on, and maybe nagoya university.

getting into uni here is quite a chore though (they have entrance exams!) and students are expected to take on a lot of responsibility when it comes to developing their research. that is, the professor will tell you if something is good, bad, etc, but leaves it up to the students to decide how to resolve issues. Definitely a self-starting kind of place. This is a big shock for foreigners who are accustomed to being told more explicitly about how to proceed. I like it, but some do not. apart from that the education is quite good and comparable to any other good uni in the world, as far as i can judge. no complaints anyway. and no desire to study anywhere else.

If anyone is Knowledgeable about funding at Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, MIT or U Mich I'd be quite interested to hear how difficult it is for PhD students.

also, if anyone knows anything about Yale starting a PhD program, that'd be great. thanks.

One last thing, as pathetic as it sounds, how crucial is the brand name? If you want to end up teaching theory at an Ivy, do you pretty much need a degree from one?

Ivan ... I am not sure how to answer your first question. All those places fund their students, thus the answer would be in terms of "how much?" and "for how long?" Also, I believe that some schools provide summer funding, while others don't.

I think there have been previous threads about your last question ... and I guess it's related to the more general issue of whether one attends a school's PhD program because of the name/provenance, or because of a specific faculty member. As others can attest, it is about finding an institution that can support your research. And oftentimes, this means that the brand name school may not be the best place.

I also find it interesting that you bring up the issue of teaching theory, as opposed to history. The PhD programs you mentioned in your post all feature intensive, historical/art-historical methodologies. The programs are also interdisciplinary in nature. I would think that the rationales and reasons behind enrolling in a PhD program transcend issues of teaching mere theory.

I do not think it is an absolute necessity to get a degree from an East Coast school to teach theory. If you look at the websites for these particular programs, you will find that faculty members completed their doctoral work in a variety of institutions.

About a PhD at Yale ... I have heard rumors that this is the case ... but all of these have been unsubstantiated. It's just that ... a rumor.

I agree, the best thing to do is figure out who you would want to study with. It's the best thing for you and it's the way you are most likely to be accepted. My personal experience was that I got in to the programs where I "made a connection" with someone on the basis of what I wanted to study with them. And I didn't get in where I didn't do that. This is partly because they are accepting people that they want to have around the proverbial water cooler for 5+ years and partly because it is hard for them to help you if you are not similar enough. So, I think visiting is a must for both you and them.

And I agree that you should probably not go somewhere that isn't funded. But that's kind of unfortunate.

I don't know that PhD programs in architecture are all that competitive to get into, just as a ratio of those who apply to those who are accepted. It's nothing compared to MArchs or BArchs. But... I think that is because you have to do a lot more before you even apply. For example, you have to make a case for why you should be accepted at that school, you have to have a sketchy idea of an original research project, etc. And, I think that can be harder to do when you haven't been around "the scene" enough to know what is going on, what is new, what's been done, what sorts of sources to cite, whose work your work will smell like, etc. So the pool of potential applicants is quite small. I think they discourage people from applying if they don't think they have much chance or are clearly not a good fit. But that's just gossip. I also think special language skills really help, because then you instantly have this rare treasure trove of resources that you can hardly go wrong with. Just an impression I get. But I still think that the odds are pretty good, especially compared to PhDs in other disciplines.

So yea, sharing some info about what you might work on would help archinecters give you advice on where to apply.

I heard the same rumours about Yale, but know absolutely nothing about it. One thing I will say, if I could choose all over again, I would think even more intensely about joining a newly established Ph.D. program. There are so many hoops to jump through in grad school, but in a new program, those hoops may be invisible, you just have to hope you hit them. I'm otherwise quite happy, but I'm finding that having no set precedent to follow can add one more level of anxiety to the exam process, etc.

I'm in the same program as Smokety and waiting to hear on PhD programs. I figure I'll hear sometime this week (last year, the student from our program who got into MIT and Princeton found out Monday and Thursday respectively).

I've heard from one -- I got into Michigan as well and am interested in working with Claire Zimmerman and Malcolm McCullough. My research interests cross over a number of areas, so we'll see where things end up. My current research is on Cedric Price's Generator project. I also have conducted ethnographic research on mobile phone sharing and its spatial impact in urban India, and I used to be an interaction design professor. I also have researched Weimar Germany's housing developments.

It's hard to wait. Finding out about Michigan calmed my nerves and now I'm all nervous again.

bringing it back to the top to see if we can elaborate more on the financial structure of schools/programs in europe. there was one post that mentioned that Delft paid 2200 euros a month... what about the AA or the Bartlett? Both have semi-intriguing programs with some interesting faculty, so I wanted to see if you guys had any more info in those specifically, but definately not limited to them.

I emailed someone at the AA and got back a 70-something page pdf with faculty CV''s and etc, but I havent seen if they fund their people. and from how the email was stated I took that they did not other than obviously allowing the student to seek outside scholarships/fellowships.
thanks

i am just curious if schools provide fundings for international students?!

yes, however you may have to apply from your own country rather than from the place you will study.

in my case the japanese govt is funding my research, and providing monthly living stipend, as is the case with almost 100% of foreign students in japan. I beleive there is similar deal in UK available; for this kind of funding you have to apply through the embassy closest to your home town, not go through the school.

actually, nice thing about japan is that there is a sort of meritocracy in place with education, so the better schools cost less than the not so good schools. not that i am paying anywyay, but the tuition in my uni is a small fraction of what my brother is paying at his. this is an enormous incentive for the less priveleged to study hard and get an excellent and affordable education...lazy rich people go to the "bird" schools.

could you imagine? harvard and yale cheaper than all the rest? mind boggles. "no child let behind" indeed.

ok, so thought id post this-
accepted to VT PhD program

to the top... any new phd developments going on with you guys? also with specific relation to the AA funding post... I would like it if we could elaborate on that some. I also sent an email, and got the same 70 page pdf with all the professors info. but if I understand correctly funding for an american in a foreign country would have to be done through either the end countries govt or a fellowship here in the states? I have recently started to research the fellowship/grant side of things and I havent found too many that I think will work for going abroad. does anybody have resources/links for this type of funding?
also I did notice that a lot of those fellowships/grants have a requirement that ou have applied to a school and are pending admission. short of applying to ten schools what is the best way to havea better chance at getting funding for a specific school? I'm just not too sure about this aspect yet. and as others have sai dI will not do a phd without being funded. just doesnt make sense to me, but I do want to go all out and get more information to better my chances.

New developments, you ask?

Why, yes... I finally, finally finished! And, oh, what a feeling it is.

On funding: I don't have enough experience with this to comment intelligently (my student loan balance is proof of this), but I'd suggest going to sites like phinished.org and look at links/forums/threads on the subject. It's an informative site.

Good luck!

Citizen, PhD

Why, I just started my Ph.D yesterday .... hats off to you, citizen, and I'll let you know when I finish :)