Oh man....really. I dont know. While it may be a good idea, has any consideration been taken to the fact that most of these day laborers that are used, can't/might not be able to read proper spanish??
Haven't seen many labOrers looking at drawings anyway. Besides, unskilled people who dont speak English should be under the supervision/direction of someone who does. Also, putting together a set of drawings is hard enough, and any owner's savings from hiring non-english speaking workers will be offset by an extra fee for having to do something so ridiculous to my drawings.
Indeed Poczatek.
I guess mdler was asking if this would be something useful, but I can only see it as more cumbersome to us to have to provide drawings with translations (mind you, this would be ALOT of work, not to mention trying to get the appropriate verbage as things don't translate directly). Futhermore, why do we need to do this?
nope. It's hard enough to fit the ones in english on there!
Besides, my view is that if someone doesn't want to learn the language of their country of residence, let them shift as they will. I am against promoting the english illiteracy of people who claim that they desperately want to be here.
Rationalist, I have the same opinion, and said as much, and then was basically called insensitive and a little intolerant for it.
Seems like a good idea in order to expediate the construction process considering the number of non-english speaking to english speaking laborers in construction is more than a little skewed. At least in my neck of the woods.
I didnt want to be the first to say it rationalist....but thanks for saying it. I am with ya, for you see...I am one of those that came here not knowing a word. I saw my mother struggle with the language, but it was struggle and survive, or perish!
I simply can't stand those that want things handed to them just because (as it may seem) they are not the majority. We all struggled, and learned to adapt, and so should they.
call me insensitive, but recognize that I was on the other end, so I know both sides!
mis contractors, que hablan ingles, ya no miran a mis dibujos...y mis notas son en ingles.
it's a great idea. maybe if i wrote my notes in spanish, someone would actually read them. because the natural-born american dumbasses in the job trailer sure as hell don't.
unless you've emigrated to another country AS AN ADULT and gone through the experience of having to learn another language, callense.
porque tu no sabes como dificil es para aprender un otra idioma.
Just in case you're wondering that's not spanish. I'm amazed here, not at the response to this proposal, but at the underlying attitude that is so strongly resistive to change. The question here is not about race or insensitivity, but immediately becomes so through blatant remarks to the contrary.
I bet you guys all draft on a parallel rule with lead holders and call your practice Atelier Tartan Grid.
I've met plenty of native spanish speakers on the job site that were not only professional and excellent in every manner of their trade, but could also read, write and speak in Spanish and English. How many of you can do that?
Anyway, it was my experience working as a laborer one summer in Texas that the latino crew on the site weren't there to learn English. These guys are here to work, not to assimilate. It's all economics.
while it could be a potential liability to put two languages on drawings, it's not like it's not done. at my first job out of school, one of my tasks was to do notes (in both korean and english) on drawings for a condo tower in seoul. (i was in chicago at the time) of course, i speak absolutely no korean -- i was just copying someone's handwritten notes. but we did it. how hard is it? i kinda learned written korean in the process (admittedly i forgot it immediately thereafter though).
this is a free country, and you can come here for whatever reason you like. yeah, so your co-laborers were here to make money. so what?
i too am amazed at what emerged from the question. why should it matter what language the workers are speaking? the way many architects act, it's like the laborers don't matter anyway.
Se que dificil esta. Mi espanol esta muy mal. Puedo mirar, pero no pienso en espanol, y los mexicanos hablan mas rapido para me!
And I'm not a liberal showing my dark side- I'm conservative to the core, in the real (libertarian, not republican) way. I just wouldn't presume to go to another country and try to work in another language, and would not help another to do so.
well, all those people talking that furrin talk on yer sites are just fulfilling a demand for cheap labor that isn't being met by our current supply. pure economics. true libertarianism doesn't concern itself with what language is being spoken on jobsites.
unlike other labor-pressed places like japan and scandinavia, where labor is at a premium and thus automation and efficiency are of the utmost concern to builders...the US construction industry is stuck on stupid, relying on cheap illegal labor to replace innovation in the construction process. my experience is that the guys in the trench are just like the guys in the trailer, only they work longer hours for less pay. i'm not making saints of the workers -- too many beer cans and dirty pictures drawn on stud walls for that. i'm saying they're just like el guero en la oficina, except that el guero has the paychecks.
Mdler, I have polish masons and stucco subcontractors, hispanic drywall sub contractors and Brazilian Framer subcontractors. The job site forman is an second generation Italian. He seems to keep everything moving along. Everyone seems to have a good grasp of what is expected.
i agree with ochona. i think translating into spanish, if needed, should
have to be done by the contractor since they're the ones hiring (most
likely) illegal workers to avoid paying union dues and legitimate
wages. it's difficult enough checking all the notes in one language
having to do it in another is going to add even more time. just given that
most architects in the u.s. aren't naturally spanish speaking.
it's not a question of old-fashioned..it's a question of time and money.
if the client wants you to write it in both languages you do it. otherwise
you're doin your client a disservice by wasting time translating.
bottom line..not your responsibility.
also if i were to move to another country at this point i wouldn't expect
everyone to speak english to me..i would want to learn the language..
as far as i'm concerned there's no excuse for even adults to not learn the
native language.
Jan 14, 07 3:00 pm ·
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Spanish on DWG sets
Do any of you guys and gals put Spanish on your drawings (for projects in the US) for non-English speaking labourers???
No, but a good idea.
Oh man....really. I dont know. While it may be a good idea, has any consideration been taken to the fact that most of these day laborers that are used, can't/might not be able to read proper spanish??
Just a thought!
Haven't seen many labOrers looking at drawings anyway. Besides, unskilled people who dont speak English should be under the supervision/direction of someone who does. Also, putting together a set of drawings is hard enough, and any owner's savings from hiring non-english speaking workers will be offset by an extra fee for having to do something so ridiculous to my drawings.
Indeed Poczatek.
I guess mdler was asking if this would be something useful, but I can only see it as more cumbersome to us to have to provide drawings with translations (mind you, this would be ALOT of work, not to mention trying to get the appropriate verbage as things don't translate directly). Futhermore, why do we need to do this?
I'm just curious, that's all!
nope. It's hard enough to fit the ones in english on there!
Besides, my view is that if someone doesn't want to learn the language of their country of residence, let them shift as they will. I am against promoting the english illiteracy of people who claim that they desperately want to be here.
Rationalist, I have the same opinion, and said as much, and then was basically called insensitive and a little intolerant for it.
Seems like a good idea in order to expediate the construction process considering the number of non-english speaking to english speaking laborers in construction is more than a little skewed. At least in my neck of the woods.
I didnt want to be the first to say it rationalist....but thanks for saying it. I am with ya, for you see...I am one of those that came here not knowing a word. I saw my mother struggle with the language, but it was struggle and survive, or perish!
I simply can't stand those that want things handed to them just because (as it may seem) they are not the majority. We all struggled, and learned to adapt, and so should they.
call me insensitive, but recognize that I was on the other end, so I know both sides!
mis contractors, que hablan ingles, ya no miran a mis dibujos...y mis notas son en ingles.
it's a great idea. maybe if i wrote my notes in spanish, someone would actually read them. because the natural-born american dumbasses in the job trailer sure as hell don't.
unless you've emigrated to another country AS AN ADULT and gone through the experience of having to learn another language, callense.
porque tu no sabes como dificil es para aprender un otra idioma.
Vai se foder seu idiotas.
Just in case you're wondering that's not spanish. I'm amazed here, not at the response to this proposal, but at the underlying attitude that is so strongly resistive to change. The question here is not about race or insensitivity, but immediately becomes so through blatant remarks to the contrary.
I bet you guys all draft on a parallel rule with lead holders and call your practice Atelier Tartan Grid.
I've met plenty of native spanish speakers on the job site that were not only professional and excellent in every manner of their trade, but could also read, write and speak in Spanish and English. How many of you can do that?
Sounds like a potential liability.
Anyway, it was my experience working as a laborer one summer in Texas that the latino crew on the site weren't there to learn English. These guys are here to work, not to assimilate. It's all economics.
that's portuguese, btw.
while it could be a potential liability to put two languages on drawings, it's not like it's not done. at my first job out of school, one of my tasks was to do notes (in both korean and english) on drawings for a condo tower in seoul. (i was in chicago at the time) of course, i speak absolutely no korean -- i was just copying someone's handwritten notes. but we did it. how hard is it? i kinda learned written korean in the process (admittedly i forgot it immediately thereafter though).
this is a free country, and you can come here for whatever reason you like. yeah, so your co-laborers were here to make money. so what?
i too am amazed at what emerged from the question. why should it matter what language the workers are speaking? the way many architects act, it's like the laborers don't matter anyway.
i love it when liberals show their dark sides.
make sure when you add the notes in spanish that you refer to everything, from nails to lumber, as "chingalera"...
Se que dificil esta. Mi espanol esta muy mal. Puedo mirar, pero no pienso en espanol, y los mexicanos hablan mas rapido para me!
And I'm not a liberal showing my dark side- I'm conservative to the core, in the real (libertarian, not republican) way. I just wouldn't presume to go to another country and try to work in another language, and would not help another to do so.
dammson, that's pretty funny!
que chistoso, dammson.
well, all those people talking that furrin talk on yer sites are just fulfilling a demand for cheap labor that isn't being met by our current supply. pure economics. true libertarianism doesn't concern itself with what language is being spoken on jobsites.
unlike other labor-pressed places like japan and scandinavia, where labor is at a premium and thus automation and efficiency are of the utmost concern to builders...the US construction industry is stuck on stupid, relying on cheap illegal labor to replace innovation in the construction process. my experience is that the guys in the trench are just like the guys in the trailer, only they work longer hours for less pay. i'm not making saints of the workers -- too many beer cans and dirty pictures drawn on stud walls for that. i'm saying they're just like el guero en la oficina, except that el guero has the paychecks.
Your assuming that they will be looking at drawings in the first place......
Mdler, I have polish masons and stucco subcontractors, hispanic drywall sub contractors and Brazilian Framer subcontractors. The job site forman is an second generation Italian. He seems to keep everything moving along. Everyone seems to have a good grasp of what is expected.
i agree with ochona. i think translating into spanish, if needed, should
have to be done by the contractor since they're the ones hiring (most
likely) illegal workers to avoid paying union dues and legitimate
wages. it's difficult enough checking all the notes in one language
having to do it in another is going to add even more time. just given that
most architects in the u.s. aren't naturally spanish speaking.
it's not a question of old-fashioned..it's a question of time and money.
if the client wants you to write it in both languages you do it. otherwise
you're doin your client a disservice by wasting time translating.
bottom line..not your responsibility.
also if i were to move to another country at this point i wouldn't expect
everyone to speak english to me..i would want to learn the language..
as far as i'm concerned there's no excuse for even adults to not learn the
native language.
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