Let me start with how it started. I landed this big commission. For a church. A mormon church, no less. Do I myself hold any particular religious beliefs? No. But that's fine. I'll design the damn church if they so want and get paid a heap of greenback for it.
So I start designing the thing for these mormon clients. It's these two mormon guys (why do those buggers always travel in pairs?) and they're bishops or some high up thing in that church. Big deal. Now, I've seen these mormon churches before. A lot of them are these big rocket looking buildings that seem meant to launch the whole damn congregation up into heaven or some damn imaginary place. Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is this: I got fired by those mormon clients! Because I drew the line!
Why did I draw the line? Simple. Those bastards wanted me to design a freakin' DUNGEON under their church! What the hell?! That's right. These mormon clients first try pitching it to me like it's just this big storage pit. A storage pit which is cylindrical in shape and 80 f'ing feet deep? With this very tiny sort of retractable ladder down the side? C'mon! I said to them, “No way! I'm not designing any damn dungeon for any type of crazy imprisonment scenario you might have in mind for people like me who might not agree with your particular world view and frankly very strange and without any evidence type of belief system! No way!” They fired me on the spot! Now what? Awww.
I think you may have jumped to conclusions too quickly and you may have lost out on a job, which of course is your prerogative. Now I don't know much about this religion, but my Mormon friend has a shelter built under his house – I believe this religion believes in being prepared for any kind of future disaster and/or attack, so an underground fallout shelter is the norm and it should include the necessary items to survive long periods of time underground, including food and supplies. I've heard of Mormons keeping anywhere from a one to a twenty-year food supply in their shelter area!
Bomb shelter? Are ya crazy? Listen. This was an F’ing DUNGEON. Let me just add a little something I forgot to mention the last time around. These mormon buggers wanted CHAINS on the walls. Why do you think they would want that? To keep nice and secured during the big earthquake like rumblings of some crazy apocalypse? To keep “buckled up?†No chance, buster! They wanted those in order to SHACKLE HUMANS. Period. Also, one of those bishop bastards wanted to install an audio system which would pipe in the gentle, smooth sounds of, “a great beast growling.†He said it would scare away rats and things which might threaten the storage supply. Listen. Any rat in its right mind would get the F out of that “storage pit†because it’s obviously a damn dungeon! No Swiss chalet!
i commend you. you didn't miss out on @#$! buildings last a long time - dungeons even longer - and that would be nagging tug at the conscience- rattling chain nightmare dreams.
Yes, as a non-Mormon, I want to thank you for designing one less space with which Christians can oppress non-believers. Grammatically i think that sentence was wrong but hopefully you get my point. If you are serious, then really, we appreciate it.
Oh my gosh, there's a bunch of little Garwondlers in that poster!
Yes, all that stuff about huge amounts of food storage is true, but I 'm failry certain that isn't what that pit is for. I'm no expert on Mormonism, but I have read quite a few books about it. Apparently, the Mormons have various 'initiation' ceremonies where the initiate is made to go down into a place to be alone for a brief period of time. There's a whole bunch of oddball spiritual meaning behind it, but that's the long and short of it. It's the same reason that the layout of the upper floors of Mormon Temple echoes the floor layout of a Masonic Temple. They use the rooms to bring the members from room to room on a 'Celestial Journey'. There's more to it than that, but I can be pretty certain that pit wouldn't be used as a 'dungeon' in the scary, more conventional meaning of the word. I'm very, very suprised that they brought a non Mormon onto the project at all, because the plans for all the new temples usually come directly from Salt Lake City, and the sites are usually run by LDS architects in my experience. Sorry you had to lose the commission.
The chains on the walls sound like an interior decorator kind of thing anyway – so I wouldn't worry about that :) Seriously though, I really don't think their intention is to torture non-believers. I assume the chains would be used to support shelving or something along those lines…anyway I'll ask my Mormon friend about this and see what he has to say about the situation. If you don't here back from me, call for help.
I’ll preface this by saying I am not Mormon nor am I religious in the standard sense of the term.
To be honest, I’d say you did yourself and your client a favor by getting fired. Reading the way you describe these people it is clear that you had a fair amount of negative preconceptions about them from the onset. Furthermore you explain the program (a church) as a drag that would make you money but not offer much in terms of personal fulfillment. Your clients and their patrons on the other hand intend to do something very important to them in this building. Your judgmental attitude and general indifference would have given them a substandard place to worship. You really seem to be one of the more close minded people I have come across on this page and I applaud these Mormons for firing you. I would say THEY drew the line.
By the way, a crypt is a pretty standard programmatic element for a church. What you did is like objecting to lab rooms in a science building.
Yo, next time you deny a Jeff Dahlmer wannabe/dude form silence of the lambs your architectural services, send him my way. I'll be happy to design a torture chamber/dungeon for 'em.
IT RUBS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN!
Couldn't it have a small wine cellar? A time-out space for rowdy Sunday school brats? An archival space like a time-capsule for their family tree/geneology stuff? A place to keep religious artifacts/relicts? A cool place for secret meetings and rituals (dunno if they do those)? An office for an agoraphobic rector or priest? A secret kick boxing venue?
Couldn't it have been a small wine cellar? A time-out space for rowdy Sunday school brats? An archival space like a time-capsule for their family tree/geneology stuff? A place to keep religious artifacts/relicts? A cool place for secret meetings and rituals (dunno if they do those)? An office for an agoraphobic rector or priest? A secret kick boxing venue?
Couldn't it have been a small wine cellar? A time-out space for rowdy Sunday school brats? An archival space like a time-capsule for their family tree/geneology stuff? A place to keep religious artifacts/relicts? A cool place for secret meetings and rituals (dunno if they do those)? An office for an agoraphobic rector or priest? A secret kick boxing venue?
brings up a broader point - one i think that has been touched on before - what are spaces/buildings you'd never design? would you design a facility for sex offenders? a slaughterhouse? a research facility - if you knew that said facility would perform vivisections? a gas chamber/theatre? abortion clinic? a GOP headquarters? office for the KKK? a space for transgendered people?
As a lapsed Mormon, I feel it is my duty to bring some sanity to this thread. While the dungeon part is totally true, having spent some time there myself, the part of this thread that reeks of a lie is the insinuation that this was a lucrative design project. In recent years, all churches and temples are designed by a central church architectural office. While there are a few plans to choose from, there is as much glamor in "designing" a Mormon church as in designing a Burger King. Local architects basically adapt the standard set of plans to local codes and site conditions, and serve more as an architect of record than as a design architect. While the temples (different than the churches--this is where all the weird shit happens) were once original in design, the designs have become so standardized that even practicing Mormons often refer to the new generation of temples as McTemples.
Hmmm...what would YOU use a dungeon for? Let your imagination run wild...Here's some ideas for a start
Storing Geneolgical records
Washings and Annointings
Baptisms for the Dead
Stashing away incriminating documents about White Salamanders
Place for the House Elves to Live
Umm...as another lapsed mormon, one that has been in a mormon temple, I believe you would be referring to the baptismal font used to perform baptisms for the dead.
Regardless of your personal beliefs or religious convictions, I don't necessarily think it is wise to assume the motives of any individual without actually asking. Just saying.
And, really, come one. Everyone has ludicrous beliefs...it is their own way to deal with the random events of life in some rationalized way. Who's to say one is better than another? I won't...even if I left that church as fast as my legs could take me
I think most people's beef with Mormonism isn't about their theology -- as wacky as it is -- but rather to do with issues of coercion and freedom of concience. Every faith system -- even my own brand of stiff-upper-lip Anglicanism -- has beliefs and practices that would be bizzaire to outsiders, but not all of them are as aggresive towards winning converts or exercising control over people's personal lives as Mormonism. To me, that's where the problem is. (And don't get me wrong: LDS is hardly unique in that regard.)
But aside from all that, my biggest beef with Mormonism is their hideous taste in architecture. That temple in Salt Lake City looks like a bad freshman studio project. At least the Christian Scientists had the good sense to hire I.M. Pei to design their headquarters in Boston.
hmm when i have my practice, ill design anything for anyone.
i plan on being an architect.
not a philosopher who deals with what is wrong and what is right.
right now, i am first a scientist and not yet an architect. science is not the art of right and wrong. i could go into a deeper science/philosophy discussion regarding this, but ill save you the pain.
if you aren't gonna do it.
someone like me is gonna take up the job.
why?
cause the way i plan on imposing my (good) will upon the world comes from my selective use of that money which you threw away.
silverlake, i was just gonna say! maybe these guys weren't mormons, maybe they're scientologists... or from some other cult and want to blame the oddity on the mormons...
addictionbomb, i'm not yet an architect either, but i've been advised by a few practicing architects that, if money is what you want, architecture is not the place to find it... go i-banking! they like scientists...
Katze, Einstein never signed the papers to build the a-bomb.
he wrote a letter too Roosevelt, recommending to build the a-bomb,
fearing the nazis would build it first.
"I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them."
Meta...I don't necessarily mind people making fun of the decisions of others...hell, I love a good South Park episode on mormon culture...but the key to that humor is knowing exactly what you are making fun of...taking what is treated as truth and showing it in a context that underlies how, perhaps, ridiculous it can be....thus, the scientology episode of south park...it was successful for taking, letter by letter, the tenents of scientology, presenting them in a new forum, and highlighting how strange it all sounds.
For me, that's what makes humor of sensitive subjects so tenuous. You need to know what you are making fun of before you do it. What I found a bit, let's say, offensive about the mormonism comments so far are that, in trying to make fun, they only highlight how little people know.
Yes, Mormonism can be accused of racism in its past. What religion can't be? And yes, it can seem cultish, because it is so much apart of the lives of the people that practice it. But, can't you say that about hassidic jews? Whatever you level at one religion, you can equally level at another.
I'm not saying that you can't have fun. I'm just saying that it should come from a place of understanding, not of ignorance.
Zahand, I could have been a little more careful with word selection (e.g. letter vs. paper) but I hope you understand my point. It certainly was Einstein's actions that put the A-bomb plan into motion, so I don't care if it was an official stamped document or just a Dear Mr. President letter. Nevertheless, Einstein took full responsibility for its consequences, calling it "the greatest mistake" of his life. My comments generated towards addictionbomb was that you can't abide by a philosophy "I'll design anything for anyone", because we all have moral obligations to consider and a code of conduct to follow while fulfilling said obligations.
I think you can start with anything, as long as you find out about it...I always got a kick over church "callings".
You see, to help keep you an active member of the church, they "call" you to positions, which range from greeting people at sacrament to teaching sunday school, and everything in between.
When I was a freshman in college, with no real seminary experience behind me, I was called to teach a sunday school class for adults. I mean, really, how was I supposed to be qualified to hold classes on the religious teachings of the church, when I had no real knowledge of what I was suppose to be doing? But, when I told others of my hesitations, they said that they had faith, that they had prayed, and they felt strongly that I was the choice for the position.
So, as a freaked out 18 year old, I was standing in front of people much older than me, many return missionaries, trying to hold these sunday school classes. Let me tell you that some people were NOT nice about my naivety. A part of me couldn't blame them. A part of me got really pissed. And thus starts the down hill relationship between me and the church...but that is another story.
Anyways, the funny part would be the belief in these callings. That could start your episode. Like Cartman being called to teach sunday school kids the importantance of the sacrifice of jesus...which he would undoubtedly turn into a tirade against all jews, being Cartman and all. And then, everyone would be quietly nodding, because he had been "called" to the position, so why would you question his suitability?
How's that? :)
And I have now entered really dangerous territory. So let me be clear. I'm not really an active church member, and I am only speaking from my own experience. I in no way wish to represent the church in any capacity, no do I wish to open a huge can of worms, either....
I drew the line! And got FIRED for it!
Let me start with how it started. I landed this big commission. For a church. A mormon church, no less. Do I myself hold any particular religious beliefs? No. But that's fine. I'll design the damn church if they so want and get paid a heap of greenback for it.
So I start designing the thing for these mormon clients. It's these two mormon guys (why do those buggers always travel in pairs?) and they're bishops or some high up thing in that church. Big deal. Now, I've seen these mormon churches before. A lot of them are these big rocket looking buildings that seem meant to launch the whole damn congregation up into heaven or some damn imaginary place. Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is this: I got fired by those mormon clients! Because I drew the line!
Why did I draw the line? Simple. Those bastards wanted me to design a freakin' DUNGEON under their church! What the hell?! That's right. These mormon clients first try pitching it to me like it's just this big storage pit. A storage pit which is cylindrical in shape and 80 f'ing feet deep? With this very tiny sort of retractable ladder down the side? C'mon! I said to them, “No way! I'm not designing any damn dungeon for any type of crazy imprisonment scenario you might have in mind for people like me who might not agree with your particular world view and frankly very strange and without any evidence type of belief system! No way!” They fired me on the spot! Now what? Awww.
go buy the t-shirt and post a picture
wow... is it even possible to have a dungeon, and pass inspections???
I think you may have jumped to conclusions too quickly and you may have lost out on a job, which of course is your prerogative. Now I don't know much about this religion, but my Mormon friend has a shelter built under his house – I believe this religion believes in being prepared for any kind of future disaster and/or attack, so an underground fallout shelter is the norm and it should include the necessary items to survive long periods of time underground, including food and supplies. I've heard of Mormons keeping anywhere from a one to a twenty-year food supply in their shelter area!
swiss law mandates a bomb shelter in each home.
damn, even the mormons want to be swiss...
first lost the office, now lost project. two times looser.
go buy the t-shirt and post a picture (garwondler) kind.
frankly, i'm suprised that a non-mormon was allowed to design such a place.
i believe it is for a garwondLer breeding area. which are often located under churches and such...
Bomb shelter? Are ya crazy? Listen. This was an F’ing DUNGEON. Let me just add a little something I forgot to mention the last time around. These mormon buggers wanted CHAINS on the walls. Why do you think they would want that? To keep nice and secured during the big earthquake like rumblings of some crazy apocalypse? To keep “buckled up?†No chance, buster! They wanted those in order to SHACKLE HUMANS. Period. Also, one of those bishop bastards wanted to install an audio system which would pipe in the gentle, smooth sounds of, “a great beast growling.†He said it would scare away rats and things which might threaten the storage supply. Listen. Any rat in its right mind would get the F out of that “storage pit†because it’s obviously a damn dungeon! No Swiss chalet!
its feeding time
i commend you. you didn't miss out on @#$! buildings last a long time - dungeons even longer - and that would be nagging tug at the conscience- rattling chain nightmare dreams.
Yes, as a non-Mormon, I want to thank you for designing one less space with which Christians can oppress non-believers. Grammatically i think that sentence was wrong but hopefully you get my point. If you are serious, then really, we appreciate it.
Oh my gosh, there's a bunch of little Garwondlers in that poster!
i want to design dungeons . i would have been SOO excited. awesome awesome awesome awesome
i mean. dungeons are cool right?
dungeons and dragons - so cool...
Yes, all that stuff about huge amounts of food storage is true, but I 'm failry certain that isn't what that pit is for. I'm no expert on Mormonism, but I have read quite a few books about it. Apparently, the Mormons have various 'initiation' ceremonies where the initiate is made to go down into a place to be alone for a brief period of time. There's a whole bunch of oddball spiritual meaning behind it, but that's the long and short of it. It's the same reason that the layout of the upper floors of Mormon Temple echoes the floor layout of a Masonic Temple. They use the rooms to bring the members from room to room on a 'Celestial Journey'. There's more to it than that, but I can be pretty certain that pit wouldn't be used as a 'dungeon' in the scary, more conventional meaning of the word. I'm very, very suprised that they brought a non Mormon onto the project at all, because the plans for all the new temples usually come directly from Salt Lake City, and the sites are usually run by LDS architects in my experience. Sorry you had to lose the commission.
The chains on the walls sound like an interior decorator kind of thing anyway – so I wouldn't worry about that :) Seriously though, I really don't think their intention is to torture non-believers. I assume the chains would be used to support shelving or something along those lines…anyway I'll ask my Mormon friend about this and see what he has to say about the situation. If you don't here back from me, call for help.
I would fucking love to design a dungeon.
I’ll preface this by saying I am not Mormon nor am I religious in the standard sense of the term.
To be honest, I’d say you did yourself and your client a favor by getting fired. Reading the way you describe these people it is clear that you had a fair amount of negative preconceptions about them from the onset. Furthermore you explain the program (a church) as a drag that would make you money but not offer much in terms of personal fulfillment. Your clients and their patrons on the other hand intend to do something very important to them in this building. Your judgmental attitude and general indifference would have given them a substandard place to worship. You really seem to be one of the more close minded people I have come across on this page and I applaud these Mormons for firing you. I would say THEY drew the line.
By the way, a crypt is a pretty standard programmatic element for a church. What you did is like objecting to lab rooms in a science building.
this is the BEST thread i've ever seen. im in stitches!
Yo, next time you deny a Jeff Dahlmer wannabe/dude form silence of the lambs your architectural services, send him my way. I'll be happy to design a torture chamber/dungeon for 'em.
IT RUBS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN!
oh. and i suggest Foucault's Discipline and Punish
a bizarre response to a bizarre request
Couldn't it have a small wine cellar? A time-out space for rowdy Sunday school brats? An archival space like a time-capsule for their family tree/geneology stuff? A place to keep religious artifacts/relicts? A cool place for secret meetings and rituals (dunno if they do those)? An office for an agoraphobic rector or priest? A secret kick boxing venue?
Couldn't it have been a small wine cellar? A time-out space for rowdy Sunday school brats? An archival space like a time-capsule for their family tree/geneology stuff? A place to keep religious artifacts/relicts? A cool place for secret meetings and rituals (dunno if they do those)? An office for an agoraphobic rector or priest? A secret kick boxing venue?
Couldn't it have been a small wine cellar? A time-out space for rowdy Sunday school brats? An archival space like a time-capsule for their family tree/geneology stuff? A place to keep religious artifacts/relicts? A cool place for secret meetings and rituals (dunno if they do those)? An office for an agoraphobic rector or priest? A secret kick boxing venue?
sorry for the duplicate. Dunno what happened there.
so thats where the wmd's are....
brings up a broader point - one i think that has been touched on before - what are spaces/buildings you'd never design? would you design a facility for sex offenders? a slaughterhouse? a research facility - if you knew that said facility would perform vivisections? a gas chamber/theatre? abortion clinic? a GOP headquarters? office for the KKK? a space for transgendered people?
one for this guy -
As a lapsed Mormon, I feel it is my duty to bring some sanity to this thread. While the dungeon part is totally true, having spent some time there myself, the part of this thread that reeks of a lie is the insinuation that this was a lucrative design project. In recent years, all churches and temples are designed by a central church architectural office. While there are a few plans to choose from, there is as much glamor in "designing" a Mormon church as in designing a Burger King. Local architects basically adapt the standard set of plans to local codes and site conditions, and serve more as an architect of record than as a design architect. While the temples (different than the churches--this is where all the weird shit happens) were once original in design, the designs have become so standardized that even practicing Mormons often refer to the new generation of temples as McTemples.
Okay, I'll bite: What's the dungeon for?
mavis?
Hmmm...what would YOU use a dungeon for? Let your imagination run wild...Here's some ideas for a start
Storing Geneolgical records
Washings and Annointings
Baptisms for the Dead
Stashing away incriminating documents about White Salamanders
Place for the House Elves to Live
The real part that reeks of a lie is that he let them in his front door in the first place...
white salamanders?
is it true their underwear is sacred?
if so, sign me up...
Umm...as another lapsed mormon, one that has been in a mormon temple, I believe you would be referring to the baptismal font used to perform baptisms for the dead.
Regardless of your personal beliefs or religious convictions, I don't necessarily think it is wise to assume the motives of any individual without actually asking. Just saying.
And, really, come one. Everyone has ludicrous beliefs...it is their own way to deal with the random events of life in some rationalized way. Who's to say one is better than another? I won't...even if I left that church as fast as my legs could take me
I think most people's beef with Mormonism isn't about their theology -- as wacky as it is -- but rather to do with issues of coercion and freedom of concience. Every faith system -- even my own brand of stiff-upper-lip Anglicanism -- has beliefs and practices that would be bizzaire to outsiders, but not all of them are as aggresive towards winning converts or exercising control over people's personal lives as Mormonism. To me, that's where the problem is. (And don't get me wrong: LDS is hardly unique in that regard.)
But aside from all that, my biggest beef with Mormonism is their hideous taste in architecture. That temple in Salt Lake City looks like a bad freshman studio project. At least the Christian Scientists had the good sense to hire I.M. Pei to design their headquarters in Boston.
lig how about the missouri temple and the one in washington dc ?
dyee, no offense. it was a serious question followed by a flippant remark.
i respect the beliefs of religions no matter how distant they may seem.
now scientology on the other hand....
hmm when i have my practice, ill design anything for anyone.
i plan on being an architect.
not a philosopher who deals with what is wrong and what is right.
right now, i am first a scientist and not yet an architect. science is not the art of right and wrong. i could go into a deeper science/philosophy discussion regarding this, but ill save you the pain.
if you aren't gonna do it.
someone like me is gonna take up the job.
why?
cause the way i plan on imposing my (good) will upon the world comes from my selective use of that money which you threw away.
Be careful for what you wish for, and think before you jump – Einstein regretted signing the papers to build the A-bomb. Just my two cents.
silverlake, i was just gonna say! maybe these guys weren't mormons, maybe they're scientologists... or from some other cult and want to blame the oddity on the mormons...
addictionbomb, i'm not yet an architect either, but i've been advised by a few practicing architects that, if money is what you want, architecture is not the place to find it... go i-banking! they like scientists...
addiction, so are you saying there are not ethical codes that scientists adhere too??
Katze, Einstein never signed the papers to build the a-bomb.
he wrote a letter too Roosevelt, recommending to build the a-bomb,
fearing the nazis would build it first.
"I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them."
Ze Germans.
same as Byrle.
before ze germans get there.
Meta...I don't necessarily mind people making fun of the decisions of others...hell, I love a good South Park episode on mormon culture...but the key to that humor is knowing exactly what you are making fun of...taking what is treated as truth and showing it in a context that underlies how, perhaps, ridiculous it can be....thus, the scientology episode of south park...it was successful for taking, letter by letter, the tenents of scientology, presenting them in a new forum, and highlighting how strange it all sounds.
For me, that's what makes humor of sensitive subjects so tenuous. You need to know what you are making fun of before you do it. What I found a bit, let's say, offensive about the mormonism comments so far are that, in trying to make fun, they only highlight how little people know.
Yes, Mormonism can be accused of racism in its past. What religion can't be? And yes, it can seem cultish, because it is so much apart of the lives of the people that practice it. But, can't you say that about hassidic jews? Whatever you level at one religion, you can equally level at another.
I'm not saying that you can't have fun. I'm just saying that it should come from a place of understanding, not of ignorance.
Zahand, I could have been a little more careful with word selection (e.g. letter vs. paper) but I hope you understand my point. It certainly was Einstein's actions that put the A-bomb plan into motion, so I don't care if it was an official stamped document or just a Dear Mr. President letter. Nevertheless, Einstein took full responsibility for its consequences, calling it "the greatest mistake" of his life. My comments generated towards addictionbomb was that you can't abide by a philosophy "I'll design anything for anyone", because we all have moral obligations to consider and a code of conduct to follow while fulfilling said obligations.
meta....where to begin...:)
I think you can start with anything, as long as you find out about it...I always got a kick over church "callings".
You see, to help keep you an active member of the church, they "call" you to positions, which range from greeting people at sacrament to teaching sunday school, and everything in between.
When I was a freshman in college, with no real seminary experience behind me, I was called to teach a sunday school class for adults. I mean, really, how was I supposed to be qualified to hold classes on the religious teachings of the church, when I had no real knowledge of what I was suppose to be doing? But, when I told others of my hesitations, they said that they had faith, that they had prayed, and they felt strongly that I was the choice for the position.
So, as a freaked out 18 year old, I was standing in front of people much older than me, many return missionaries, trying to hold these sunday school classes. Let me tell you that some people were NOT nice about my naivety. A part of me couldn't blame them. A part of me got really pissed. And thus starts the down hill relationship between me and the church...but that is another story.
Anyways, the funny part would be the belief in these callings. That could start your episode. Like Cartman being called to teach sunday school kids the importantance of the sacrifice of jesus...which he would undoubtedly turn into a tirade against all jews, being Cartman and all. And then, everyone would be quietly nodding, because he had been "called" to the position, so why would you question his suitability?
How's that? :)
And I have now entered really dangerous territory. So let me be clear. I'm not really an active church member, and I am only speaking from my own experience. I in no way wish to represent the church in any capacity, no do I wish to open a huge can of worms, either....
Have fun meta...
haha ... thats crazy man ..
i picked the right day for a break from DRL !!!
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