Somebody posted one of these in another thread and it drives me nuts. Not because I don't believe in working hard and personal responsibility. I have worked two jobs at many points in my life. I've gone months without a full day off while working and attending school. (Not looking for pity but...) Im entitled to make up my own %#$^$^^ sign if I was so inclined.
The lecture should be pointed at the corporations, CEOs, and bankers. Everytime you read the news Goldman Sachs is either looting the treasury or divesting itself from underage hookers. Angelo Mozillo is paying millions in fines, but still walking away set for life. The list is endless. Thanks ignorant clowns like these the top continues to make outrageous incomes for performing at a level that would get the rest of us fired, not paid bonuses.
So on behalf of the banksters id like to thank these fools for pissing away their life working and saving like good little robots. In the meantime we are inflating the currency and living the high life off your tax dollars when our jobs should be gone because our company is bankrupt without billions in tax payer welfare. Good thing we aren't as stupid as you with all your I work hard and I dont take hand outs nonsense. Don't worry we are soaking up all the handouts anyway. Keep working hard and berating the people below you so we can continue to steal all of you blind while you fight amongst yourselves. We really appreciate you directing the focus away from the real problem, us.
Cheers.
Thanks for being a marine but...
How ignorant do you have to be to ignore:
1. ***ALL*** 50 states attorney generals going after the banks
2. Paul Black constantly talking about control fraud
3. Your choice of dozens of other news stories talking about the crime going on at the top
YES sarge, there is a MAJOR problem on wall street and they have pushed the economy over a cliff. There is also a problem with what is likely a combat soldier not having health care, but thats another issue for another thread.
shhhh jbushky. You'll get in trouble. There is a small, but rabid libertarian contingency on this site. Expect a personal warning over this from the big green head himself.
Yeah, that Marine doesn't see a problem with literally putting his body in danger for the country then NOT being able to get a lifetime of health care because some elected official has to instead vote for the insurance company that bought his/her election?! For fuckssake. Not having healthcare is NOT SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF! And as someone who's held a job since I was 14 I have no problem paying slightly more in taxes if it means that him, and his kids, and everyone else get all the healthcare this country can easily afford.
Oh god bushkey why did you start this thread now I'm so pissed off and it's early on a Monday!
It is not about what % you are in. It is about a group of exploitationists are gaming the system to accumulate wealth for themselves. I don't care how much money these 1%er have. But I do want them to stop messing up with average joe money. People like Corzine are messing up with these 53%er money. Did not these 53% er pay hefty price for trusting people like Corzine before MF Global downfall. Government don't give a blip about poor of the poor 99%er. Go to East St.Louis, Illinois. You will witness the third world within first world country. You're not poor today but it could happen to any of us. If you're sick and don't have insurance, welcome to poverty world! It is not about being mad at 1%er. It is about telling them stop f***ing with people money. They can buy OCD with their dirty money, they can bet with their inheritance,or they can hedge with their trust funds!
Apr 16, 12 10:07 am ·
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Ha ha! Marines are called "jarheads" for a reason, yo!
Exactly, Tee. I'm not whining about having to work, I'm whining about other people, aka corporations, profiting through illegal activities thereby cheating all of us who work yet still not being held accountable for it. Which is not whining at all, but being righteously angry.
I think what irritates me the most about the "53%ers" is the overall ennui, but it's not even ennui, these people have about essentially being enslaved. Comparative to other people making similar amounts in the world, these people are grossly overworked and underpaid.
Even though the 35-hour workweek is effectively dead, it legally pretty much exists in France. However, those who work more than 35 hours get a 125% wage for 35th-43rd hour and a 150% wage from the 44th to 48th hour. It currently is illegal to make someone work more than 48 hours a week.
So, say a person works a minimum wage, €9.22 or ~$12.00 per hour, in France and works the full 48 hours— their monthly base wage is €1290.80 ($1681), their 125% overtime is €368.80 ($480.28) and their 150% overtime is €221.28 ($288.18). That's a total of €1880.88 ($2449.47) a month or €22570.56 ($29393.64).
That's equivalent to an American standard-40-hour-a-week job paying $14.13 an hour. To make the same amount on American minimum wage, one would have to work 160 hours to make $1160 and an addition 118 hours at overtime of time-and-a-half.
One would have to work 276 hours a month or 69 hours a week to make what someone working minimum wage in France makes in 48 hours.
AND HERE'S THE BEST PART—
Wages, after the 35th hour, aren't taxed. That's right. Overtime is not taxed. Net income, for $29393.64 in regular and overtime minimum wage work, comparison between the U.S. and France?
France, a single person, no exemptions, would pay €480 ($626) in taxes.
In the U.S., a single person, no exemptions, would pay $2,559 in taxes.
Effective, real wage would be (money made divided by hours work), would be the following— France: $11.66 an hour, U.S.: $7.47 an hour.
There's something clearly wrong here.
France is suppose to be a socialist, overtaxed country where the government steals everything you own and you are unable to afford the basic necessities.
In reality, it seems like showing up to a McJob in France and half-assing it will net you a middle-middle class standard of living.
Once people stop complaining they become complacent. Thats what they want I guess- obidient workers just smart enough to push the buttons but not smart enough to question the system. We can't ignore the downward spiral the middle class has been on for the last 30 years.
Slaves will eventually revolt unless they never realise that they are slaves.
Oh god bushkey why did you start this thread now I'm so pissed off and it's early on a Monday!
Because I was pissed off. I am certain theres a bunch of chattering parrots who will pick this up and run with it. We all know there are people taking advantage of the system.
Should we start at the top where each case is big money or chase down the crumbs?
If unemployment is only 10% why are 43% paying no taxes?
If we cancelled section 8, food stamps, etc next week what would happen to our struggling economy when that money no longer flows into it? (Id say the system needs a MAJOR overhaul, but it also puts dollars into the economy)
If the 43% paid their taxes would the secret service actually be able to pay for the Colombian hookers?
I like that thing. Nice and cut graphic! Just wondering about those who would not get a chance to occupy these things in their life time to be in so-called 53%. God I love these people.
Apr 16, 12 1:41 pm ·
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France is not as ideal as those numbers above imply. Here is a link to a first hand account of an American who left after several years of living in France because of the low wages (and other assorted annoyances):
"I find it harder and harder to justify living in a country where 1,500€ per month/18,000€ per year is a normal or even good salary for someone with a Master’s degree. (The average income in the US for someone with an M.A. is about $40,000.) For as educated and experienced as I am, I feel like I’m worth a little bit more than the 1,200€ a month I got as a lectrice, which turned into about 13,500€ for the year after paying taxes."
As for the reality of life in America, everyone should have a blood-lusting, head-chopping hate of those running the Washington-Wall Street axis. Those fuckers are a greedy, self-destructive lot who are taking everybody else down with them. For further explanation, just read the rather thorough postings of Ashvin Pandurangi at automaticearth.org:
The sad fact is that we are all currently a part of their reckless poker game, whether we like it or not. There is only one way around that - the people must force their governments to hold the bankers criminally, civilly and financially liable for their actions and losses.
Read more about the self-destructive reality of Wall Street finance at theautomaticearth.org
I think at least policy maker should take a look at Germany. They are very close to the epic center of Euro financial crisis, and yet doing well. You don't need to pay tons of money to get a degree there.
Another thing that we should analyze is whether it is more reasonable to pay rent or mortgage.If you can control inflation and stable monetary policy, rental is better suited for majority of population. In economic downturn, we won't be entangle in housing crisis. Countries like Spain, US, Ireland are the best example for mortgage crisis. In Germany, people are more likely to rent. Just my observation.
so, i've never heard of the 53% and had to do a bit of googling to figure out what it was exactly...i must have shielded myself in a progressive bubble more effectively than i realized...and not surprisingly mike wilson, the man behind the pathetic and slanderous documentary 'michael moore hates america', is one of the 53%'s rabble-rousers. ha, you go mike wilson, you go.
and i didn't even have to scroll far through the 53% blog to find this gem: "I AM NOT JEALOUS OF PEOPLE WHO WORK HARD AND CAN AFFORD REALLY NICE THINGS. I ADMIRE THEM, I AM THE 53%!"
the blatant ignorance of this statement is literally incredible!
As for the reality of life in America, everyone should have a blood-lusting, head-chopping hate of those running the Washington-Wall Street axis. Those fuckers are a greedy, self-destructive lot who are taking everybody else down with them.
of course revealing that rush limbaugh has absolutely no idea how contraception works. yes, all these 53% statements are a lot like that because they make frustratingly obvious that these people 1) don't understand what the 99% are actually mad about (not jealous of) and 2) have no clue how the business ethics of wall street have stooped so low that they are largely unlawful and definitely immoral.
what i admire most about the 99%/occupy movement(s) is that it happened at all. i didn't have the guts to participate because - as part of a business's management in which others are at the mercy of how i'm perceived in public - i'm afraid of potential business consequences.
so, instead, i read these comments and nod my head by myself with my coffee.
we're talking to ourselves, y'all.
those with the moxie to do something are being made fun of and - by now - have been sidelined: brangelina have taken their place in the headlines again and the 1% are safely buffered so that they can continue their reindeer games. they depend on our fear of consequences, knowing that we have to protect the small bits of stability that we can.
and knowing that they can undermine that stability again, not caring.
Apr 17, 12 7:17 am ·
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"and knowing that they can undermine that stability again, not caring."
You are right. They don't care and they aren't going to care until a mob literally breaks through their buffer zone and rips one of their yachting buddies from limb to limb. We've all been trained to think that "violence is not the answer" yet these masters of the universe act with no respect to the law or any conventions of civil society beyond their own clubs/gated communities/yachts & private jets.
Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe those in charge will somehow always manage to maintain power (even if they have to step behind the curtain at times). But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable when they screw up. And since legal & financial penalties, street protests and all that seem to be worthless, then why not starting beating their asses like the misbehaving dogs that they are?
Don't act like the French revolution didn't happen.
I don't beat my dog. That's mean. This is not to say that you shouldn't beat an aristocrat. I'm just saying it would be mean to beat my dog. I would like to think a lot of the people involved in the French Revolution also refrained from beating domesticated animals.
My dog never destroyed the economy of western civilization or promoted public policy that allowed people to die form exposure/malnourishment/lack of healthcare/etc. So let's go ahead and look into corporal punishment for rich people without promoting abusive practices.
Spain is weird story among E.U members. The regionalism in Spain is more troublesome than beneficial. When Bilbao got its sparking moment, every regions in Spain wanted one. Some of them are total waste of money. Unemployment in Spain is also quite frightening too. It will not only be lost generation but also hopeless generation. Spain doesn't have strong industrial base like France or Germany, and it also cannot compete with London for global finical market. So I think Spain is quite hopeless for now. How will they dig out out of the hole? It will be interesting. May be they should try what Argentina and Russia did. But I don't think Spain have enough land for agriculture or natural resources to dig out as quickly as Russia and Argentina did. Euro issue is truly hopeless in the hand of spineless leaders.
i wouldn't say the occupy movement has been sidelined. it went through a period of reflection and reorganizing over the winter but this spring and summer should be eventful and energetic. these movements don't happen quickly...it took the ACT UP organization around 10 years of actions to bring about the impact and change to be achieved in the FDA, Wall Street, and government that they needed for HIV/AIDS medications.
a fun side note, some creative demonstrators protested outside ann romney's birthday party at the trump tower today dressed as the fictional tax dodgers baseball team:
This is not to say that you shouldn't beat an aristocrat. I'm just saying it would be mean to beat my dog. I would like to think a lot of the people involved in the French Revolution also refrained from beating domesticated animals.
curtkram this made me smile. Thank you for that!
Micah, thank you for that reminder that big revolution can and DOES happen slowly. Occupy is still working. A few guillotinings could be right quick, though.
Apr 17, 12 5:46 pm ·
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Presumably, your dog doesn't misbehave (as I specified above). But if it pissed on my carpets enough, who knows what I'd do.
But animal rights are a tangent. The point I'm trying to make is that we are supposed to be an enlightened modern society with respect for the rules of law and a willingness to negotiate our way through disputes. Yet, the powers that be act above the law (or rewrite it if needed) and show nothing but disdain for any kind of discussion (whether is be labor unions/street protesters/activists/etc) while profiting for themselves (often at the expense of others).
What's it going to take to get some action out of those with the power to actually make a difference? I doubt they would care if all of those 53% idiots managed to starve themselves to death trying to keep up with their bills. It might take not just the threat of physical pain, but the use of it.
I dont understand, If we pay taxes shouldn't the government use that money to take care of us, help us in some sort of way. Protect us, protect our rights, provide some services, job placement, help us when we're sick. But Instead they imprison us, spread fear with arrests, 1 by 1 take away our rights. It became illegal to protest. I have never been helped by my government in fact my parents were the only ones to help me pay for college. I rather pay them back then the FED. but when I graduated I couldn't find a decent job. Seems to me like my gov. is not doing their job so why should I do mine? Why should I support my oppressor? Why should I take time out of my life to file taxes that are hard to understand? Why should the sheep willingly go to the slaughter house?
When I finished school I started freelancing for cash. And now I work for cash. No more filing taxes, no more feeling sad receiving 67% of my check. And no regret what so ever. I don't own any property and will be able to do it for another 3 years before IRS realizes that I exist.
There is no reason in paying off the FED. That money just goes to paying off our national credit card from the FED reserve, a private bank that has our Gov. in their pocket.
This '53%' movement is making a valid point. Individual responsibility and self discipline is the way forward.
But it's not the way forward. The major complaint with the U.S. is livability. And this isn't necessarily the same term tossed around in architecture where livability equates to some utopian aesthetic and social gesture. Livability is an umbrella term that covers everything from purchasing power parity to park benches.
Currently, in the U.S., wages have been relatively stagnant and even declining in the last two decades— some can be perfectly personal responsible, put in their effort and watch themselves go from being lower-middle class to impoverished in a decade.
Economists like to tout that only about 3% of the workforce is minimum wage. However, ~50% of the U.S. workforce makes less than a living wage.
Fifty percent.
Add on top of the high barriers to workforce such as the ability to qualify for lease contracts, personal loans or automobile loans and you've set up a country to fail. A huge problem right now in the U.S. is that there aren't enough qualified people capable of moving to where jobs currently are.
So, to recap:
1-out-of-2 jobs in the U.S. doesn't pay enough to accrue any significant savings
Savings are necessary to purchase automobiles, make down payments or pay security deposits
Finding a better job requires relocating which requires a substantial savings
And this leads to a bigger problem in community reinvestment— the main factor in preventing blight and having a continuously expanding economy. Why would anyone bother to invest in a community that cannot provide basic standards of living? Why would a company want to expand into a market that is doomed to contract?
But it's not the way forward. The major complaint with the U.S. is livability. And this isn't necessarily the same term tossed around in architecture where livability equates to some utopian aesthetic and social gesture. Livability is an umbrella term that covers everything from purchasing power parity to park benches.
Currently, in the U.S., wages have been relatively stagnant and even declining in the last two decades— some can be perfectly personal responsible, put in their effort and watch themselves go from being lower-middle class to impoverished in a decade.
Economists like to tout that only about 3% of the workforce is minimum wage. However, ~50% of the U.S. workforce makes less than a living wage.
Fifty percent.
Add on top of the high barriers to workforce such as the ability to qualify for lease contracts, personal loans or automobile loans and you've set up a country to fail. A huge problem right now in the U.S. is that there aren't enough qualified people capable of moving to where jobs currently are.
So, to recap:
•1-out-of-2 jobs in the U.S. doesn't pay enough to accrue any significant savings
•Savings are necessary to purchase automobiles, make down payments or pay security deposits
•Finding a better job requires relocating which requires a substantial savings
And this leads to a bigger problem in community reinvestment— the main factor in preventing blight and having a continuously expanding economy. Why would anyone bother to invest in a community that cannot provide basic standards of living? Why would a company want to expand into a market that is doomed to contract?
I don't dispute your facts and the situation you are describing but I do think the solution comes down to individual responsibility, contributing towards the common good and having a sense of self control and awareness.
What we should be asking ourselves is why don't the 1% want to share their wealth? Why has society broken in this manner? What has caused these levels of inequality and how can we change the current attitude towards private wealth and society? It's fine to put up some borders around the US or Europe or wherever and say this is the GDP we create, now if only we could distribute it evenly? In reality though, would people try as hard (and therefore generate as much wealth for the country) if all wealth was distributed evenly? Aside from a strong sense of nationalism, I doubt it. So looking outside of those borders, if the US, Europe suffers and loses it's position in the world. Then what? People such as yourself, do tend to look at the system as one sided and fail to consider why the current system has got into this mess. Banking does, whether we like it or not or whether or not it is 'fair', create a lot of jobs. I know the reality tastes bitter - that the wrong people are rewarded but that is also a sad fact of western society. Are the winners of 'America/ Britain has talent' talented? This is just a reflection of Western society in general rather than the 1% on Wall Street. The west must stop its obsession with individualism and take collective responsibility by not laying the blame at the feet of individuals.
For the people who are suggesting that it is somehow the state's responsibility to distribute wealth and regulate individual 'greed'- Isn't that what the US spent the last century fighting against? Something about individual liberty I recall...
I guess my main point is that we should all behave in the manner we wish others to behave and the world would be a better place right? You don't steal from someone so you expect the same back. You put in an honest day's work and expect everyone else to do the same. Except the West has become obsessed with individuals and 'standing out'. How many people do you know go about their daily lives quietly, peacefully and modestly? Why is this? Because everyone wants fame, status and the high life (to be the 'winner') and nobody wants to be Mr. Ordinary working away quietly until pension age and taking a humble retirement. Why should others have to pay for this. Why should we in the West feel entitled to a house, car, job, food when others in the world have none of them? Again, time to reflect on our own contribution to the world and our impact on it.
Aside from banking, there is a strong winner take all culture in architecture too. Not in terms of money because there just isn't much in the architecture world but in terms of credit. This is just another example of the rampant individualism sweeping the Western world. We worship individuals - architects, celebrities, sportsmen but why? Everything worthwhile in construction and elsewhere is a team effort, a reflection of the working processes of many not just one person. This is one reason why we should think twice about attributing a building to an individual but that is probably a different discussion altogether.
Why do you think Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries have such low levels of inequality? It is not because they are big powerful authoritarian states - if they were they would be at war every 20 years. Instead they have a system which encourages collectivism, social responsibility (that starts with the individual) and the value of society in general. These are things which the West must adopt but that needs to come from within and not from external pressure (such as the state or other force).
Again, If we compare the US and the west to Japan and Asian countries in general. Japan has the lowest murder rate in the world. Why? Because there is a policeman stood on every corner stopping people killing each other? No. It's because people take responsibility for their actions and behaviour and feel a sense of shame for doing wrong. In the west, it is a case of do whatever you can get away with. If nobody stops you (external force) it is ok. What about setting standards for yourself that come from a collective ideology (religion, moral codes etc) to better the world around you?
To summarise, I think we could narrow this down to the question of what has caused this failure of the capitalist system which you accurately described. Is it a systematic or humane problem? Does the problem lie with the system or the behaviour of the individuals within it? I strongly beleive it to be the latter. I believe in capitalism when it works and I'm sure you do too but it has lost it's way and the only way forward is for the West to pause and take a long hard at itself and ask itself what it can do to help. Why should I expect bankers to share what they earn if I don't contribute my share? Camping outside Wall Street has the right intentions, and I applaud people for having the courage to try to change the world but the long term solution lies in reflection and a greater sense of self awareness for everyone, not just the 1%. Perhaps it's also time to realise that with 'individual liberty' comes individual responsibility. Something the West has never seemed to quite understand.
just to quickly comment on what dots said, i agree the 99% could do more to make the narrative about inequality more inclusive instead of constantly placing blame on the 1%. (suspending the fact for now that many of these people have committed crimes according to our agreed upon set of laws that have only been propped up by bailouts, etc)
at the same time, occupy is definitely trying to do exactly what you've explained. there is a clear narrative that we the people and our government has a responsibility to the society we choose to create and the cultivation of solidarity and brotherhood with one another. the entire point of the protests are an attempt to change the course of the nation towards a future that is better for us all. i also think that your proposal for the nation "to pause and take a long hard at itself and ask itself what it can do to help" is exactly the messy and arduous process that we are currently witnessing. no one should expect a movement as widespread as this to camp out one night and then the next day reach some kind of level of supreme enlightenment with all the solutions succinctly expressed. i'm not saying you personally believe they should, but you do suggest that that very thing isn't happening.
a big problem is that most people just don't take the time to hear occupy out due to the polarization of this countries politics or engage with the process due to a culture of apathy or cynicism about governmental change.
As long as people are willing to accept the concept of “Too Bing to Fail”, they will have to deal with “Too Small to Care” crap too.
I think a lot of people are not asking to re-distribute the wealth. Many of us are simply asking to stop gaming the system.
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies..."
Thomas Jefferson quotes. Love it!
The Federal Reserve System is not a governmental system. It is hardly quasi governmental organization.
just to quickly comment on what dots said, i agree the 99% could do more to make the narrative about inequality more inclusive instead of constantly placing blame on the 1%. (suspending the fact for now that many of these people have committed crimes according to our agreed upon set of laws that have only been propped up by bailouts, etc)
at the same time, occupy is definitely trying to do exactly what you've explained. there is a clear narrative that we the people and our government has a responsibility to the society we choose to create and the cultivation of solidarity and brotherhood with one another. the entire point of the protests are an attempt to change the course of the nation towards a future that is better for us all. i also think that your proposal for the nation "to pause and take a long hard at itself and ask itself what it can do to help" is exactly the messy and arduous process that we are currently witnessing. no one should expect a movement as widespread as this to camp out one night and then the next day reach some kind of level of supreme enlightenment with all the solutions succinctly expressed. i'm not saying you personally believe they should, but you do suggest that that very thing isn't happening.
a big problem is that most people just don't take the time to hear occupy out due to the polarization of this countries politics or engage with the process due to a culture of apathy or cynicism about governmental change.
Since when has the US lived according to a set of rules? The standards in Western capitalism is defined by profit margins and shareholder greed. Take a look at US foreign policy post WWII for example, does this uphold your idea of US standards of morality or fairness? Is it fair that millions of people have lived impoverished to provide first world lifestyles for US citizens? Why do Americans only care when reality hits their own country and starts to affect their own lifestyle?
The point I am trying to make is that the US system (free market capitalism and foreign policy in particular) is unsustainable and has been for a very long time. What we are seeing now is this system turning in on itself.
As for progress, the US should start with it's foreign policy. Don't you think the US currently has too much power? It is the world's sole superpower - can do whatever it wants (whether it's 'fair' or 'just') and get away with it. Can bully other countries into compliance, replace governments whenever it sees fit and dictate who is allowed to do what and when - Too much power in a single pair of hands.
When you say 'a future that is better for us all' do you mean all in the US? Or the world?
What we should be asking ourselves is why don't the 1% want to share their wealth?
Because Jesus said God would reward them. So "I am rich because Jesus approves of ME not of you, you poor inner city black kid."
Obviously I'm being facetious, but that attitude DOES exist among many in our society, especially many of the very wealthy.
Apr 20, 12 8:55 am ·
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"What we should be asking ourselves is why don't the 1% want to share their wealth?"
Sorry but that's a dumb question. It doesn't (and it shouldn't) matter if they want to or not. In a democracy there is simply no way that a minority of 1% will have their way with anything. Even a functioning representative republic should have a enough checks and balances to keep such a small minority in check.
But the USA is no longer a democracy. Surprise! :)
It is, however, an excellent example of corporatist capitalism run amok. And that hints at the root of the problem. It's not really a financial crisis that is enveloping the developed world but a political/government crisis. A better question for Americans:
What we should be asking ourselves is whether we want democratic country or capitalist country?
when i said an agreed upon set of laws, that was just a stupid way of me saying that the 1%'s actions are illegal. i never said the behaviors of wallstreet are anything new or that our government has ever properly adhered to it's constitution. i'm actually agreeing with you and saying that it doesn't.
maybe i didn't understand the intent of your post (and maybe i'm still interpreting it wrong) but i am confused because occupy is largely a very social(ist) movement and is also VERY aware of how our policies and actions in our country negatively affect the rest of the world. actually, if you listen to the occupiers many of them call for the end of capitalism, an end to foreign occupation, etc. and yet, you seem to either dismiss it or not realize occupy's potential. you say it has the right intentions but something about it will never work. ("I applaud people for having the courage to try to change the world but the long term solution lies in reflection and a greater sense of self awareness for everyone") if you want progress in the u.s's foreign policy, where do you propose that change should begin if it's not a national popular movement?
essentially, you're saying these things and yet here is occupy right in front of you wanting to offer solutions to the questions you raise. i just don't get it.
Micah - I understand your point and after re-reading what I posted before it does sound very confusing.
I guess my point is that socialism probably can't or won't work in the US (and here in the UK too) at present. Mainly because we don't have access to a true socialist party when we vote - there are probably some in existence somewhere but their profile is so low that they don't stand any realistic chance of being able to compete with the two or three main parties. 'Left wing' by US and UK standards is also still relatively right wing in comparison to the European left - A socialist presidential candidate has just won the first round of voting in France where socialism really means genuine socialism for example. There is a reason why such a party doesn't exist and probably has something to do with 'corporate influence' like you mentioned.
Also for socialism to be voted in, people would need to want change and although Occupy do, I'm not convinced that the millions living mainstream lifestyles across the US do? The ordinary guy needs to be aware of the damage which capitalism does, but no media (with profit as their agenda) will want to tell people these. Further, the US and UK are very much seen by socialist countries where entrepeneur's or 'tycoons' can escape too. If we remove this restriction, they may well move to part of the developing world which would not be a good thing. Imagine China suddenly becoming the home to the majority of the world's billionaires. This could be avoided by a shift away from globalisation with policies aimed towards 'localism' - communities, facilities, servcies, taxes etc. Systems where people work and live within their own communities and therefore take responsibility for the upkeep of them.
As for finding a solution, I think it will either take something very big (a revolutionary event) or a change of philosophy/ mindset at the top of society (the 1%). As the 1% seem unable to feel any sense of shame or take any responsibility for their actions, this is unlikely. However, this could happen if people abstained from voting (out of protest against the system being undemocratic), or if people supported localism over globalisation etc. The behaviour of the 1% will only change in my opinion if they are forced to observe their own actions as the rest of us must also do. This is why we also desperately need spiritual guidance in society whether it be religion or other. Also, hopefully with more balanced global authorities (UN, NATO, G8 etc) the power will be more evenly balanced between socialist/ communist ideologies and free market capitalist. This won't happen though if the US continues to pick and choose presidents for other countries and continues meddling in their affairs. I think the power balance is finally shifting with the rise of China, India etc and the rejection in Europe of free market principles and globalisation.
There are some suggestions that the behaviour of the 1% is centred on fear and insecurity. Other suggestions being the deep rooted class system and others suggest general sociopathic behaviour! First two are cultural and can be changed. Not sure about the third though!!!
Apr 23, 12 2:38 pm ·
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the 53%.... arrrrgggghhhhhhhh
Somebody posted one of these in another thread and it drives me nuts. Not because I don't believe in working hard and personal responsibility. I have worked two jobs at many points in my life. I've gone months without a full day off while working and attending school. (Not looking for pity but...) Im entitled to make up my own %#$^$^^ sign if I was so inclined.
The lecture should be pointed at the corporations, CEOs, and bankers. Everytime you read the news Goldman Sachs is either looting the treasury or divesting itself from underage hookers. Angelo Mozillo is paying millions in fines, but still walking away set for life. The list is endless. Thanks ignorant clowns like these the top continues to make outrageous incomes for performing at a level that would get the rest of us fired, not paid bonuses.
So on behalf of the banksters id like to thank these fools for pissing away their life working and saving like good little robots. In the meantime we are inflating the currency and living the high life off your tax dollars when our jobs should be gone because our company is bankrupt without billions in tax payer welfare. Good thing we aren't as stupid as you with all your I work hard and I dont take hand outs nonsense. Don't worry we are soaking up all the handouts anyway. Keep working hard and berating the people below you so we can continue to steal all of you blind while you fight amongst yourselves. We really appreciate you directing the focus away from the real problem, us.
Cheers.
Thanks for being a marine but...
How ignorant do you have to be to ignore:
1. ***ALL*** 50 states attorney generals going after the banks
2. Paul Black constantly talking about control fraud
3. Your choice of dozens of other news stories talking about the crime going on at the top
YES sarge, there is a MAJOR problem on wall street and they have pushed the economy over a cliff. There is also a problem with what is likely a combat soldier not having health care, but thats another issue for another thread.
Also I just realized Im calling BS!!! Doesn't the armed forces pay for college?
shhhh jbushky. You'll get in trouble. There is a small, but rabid libertarian contingency on this site. Expect a personal warning over this from the big green head himself.
Yeah, that Marine doesn't see a problem with literally putting his body in danger for the country then NOT being able to get a lifetime of health care because some elected official has to instead vote for the insurance company that bought his/her election?! For fuckssake. Not having healthcare is NOT SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF! And as someone who's held a job since I was 14 I have no problem paying slightly more in taxes if it means that him, and his kids, and everyone else get all the healthcare this country can easily afford.
Oh god bushkey why did you start this thread now I'm so pissed off and it's early on a Monday!
It is not about what % you are in. It is about a group of exploitationists are gaming the system to accumulate wealth for themselves. I don't care how much money these 1%er have. But I do want them to stop messing up with average joe money. People like Corzine are messing up with these 53%er money. Did not these 53% er pay hefty price for trusting people like Corzine before MF Global downfall. Government don't give a blip about poor of the poor 99%er. Go to East St.Louis, Illinois. You will witness the third world within first world country. You're not poor today but it could happen to any of us. If you're sick and don't have insurance, welcome to poverty world! It is not about being mad at 1%er. It is about telling them stop f***ing with people money. They can buy OCD with their dirty money, they can bet with their inheritance,or they can hedge with their trust funds!
Ha ha! Marines are called "jarheads" for a reason, yo!
Exactly, Tee. I'm not whining about having to work, I'm whining about other people, aka corporations, profiting through illegal activities thereby cheating all of us who work yet still not being held accountable for it. Which is not whining at all, but being righteously angry.
I think what irritates me the most about the "53%ers" is the overall ennui, but it's not even ennui, these people have about essentially being enslaved. Comparative to other people making similar amounts in the world, these people are grossly overworked and underpaid.
Even though the 35-hour workweek is effectively dead, it legally pretty much exists in France. However, those who work more than 35 hours get a 125% wage for 35th-43rd hour and a 150% wage from the 44th to 48th hour. It currently is illegal to make someone work more than 48 hours a week.
So, say a person works a minimum wage, €9.22 or ~$12.00 per hour, in France and works the full 48 hours— their monthly base wage is €1290.80 ($1681), their 125% overtime is €368.80 ($480.28) and their 150% overtime is €221.28 ($288.18). That's a total of €1880.88 ($2449.47) a month or €22570.56 ($29393.64).
That's equivalent to an American standard-40-hour-a-week job paying $14.13 an hour. To make the same amount on American minimum wage, one would have to work 160 hours to make $1160 and an addition 118 hours at overtime of time-and-a-half.
One would have to work 276 hours a month or 69 hours a week to make what someone working minimum wage in France makes in 48 hours.
AND HERE'S THE BEST PART—
Wages, after the 35th hour, aren't taxed. That's right. Overtime is not taxed. Net income, for $29393.64 in regular and overtime minimum wage work, comparison between the U.S. and France?
France, a single person, no exemptions, would pay €480 ($626) in taxes.
In the U.S., a single person, no exemptions, would pay $2,559 in taxes.
Effective, real wage would be (money made divided by hours work), would be the following— France: $11.66 an hour, U.S.: $7.47 an hour.
There's something clearly wrong here.
France is suppose to be a socialist, overtaxed country where the government steals everything you own and you are unable to afford the basic necessities.
In reality, it seems like showing up to a McJob in France and half-assing it will net you a middle-middle class standard of living.
Once people stop complaining they become complacent. Thats what they want I guess- obidient workers just smart enough to push the buttons but not smart enough to question the system. We can't ignore the downward spiral the middle class has been on for the last 30 years.
Slaves will eventually revolt unless they never realise that they are slaves.
Oh god bushkey why did you start this thread now I'm so pissed off and it's early on a Monday!
Because I was pissed off. I am certain theres a bunch of chattering parrots who will pick this up and run with it. We all know there are people taking advantage of the system.
so many questions ;)
I like that thing. Nice and cut graphic! Just wondering about those who would not get a chance to occupy these things in their life time to be in so-called 53%. God I love these people.
France is not as ideal as those numbers above imply. Here is a link to a first hand account of an American who left after several years of living in France because of the low wages (and other assorted annoyances):
"I find it harder and harder to justify living in a country where 1,500€ per month/18,000€ per year is a normal or even good salary for someone with a Master’s degree. (The average income in the US for someone with an M.A. is about $40,000.) For as educated and experienced as I am, I feel like I’m worth a little bit more than the 1,200€ a month I got as a lectrice, which turned into about 13,500€ for the year after paying taxes."
More available at ielanguages.com, Expat Exhaustion: All Grèved Out and All Franced Out
As for the reality of life in America, everyone should have a blood-lusting, head-chopping hate of those running the Washington-Wall Street axis. Those fuckers are a greedy, self-destructive lot who are taking everybody else down with them. For further explanation, just read the rather thorough postings of Ashvin Pandurangi at automaticearth.org:
The sad fact is that we are all currently a part of their reckless poker game, whether we like it or not. There is only one way around that - the people must force their governments to hold the bankers criminally, civilly and financially liable for their actions and losses.
Read more about the self-destructive reality of Wall Street finance at theautomaticearth.org
Yo!
I think at least policy maker should take a look at Germany. They are very close to the epic center of Euro financial crisis, and yet doing well. You don't need to pay tons of money to get a degree there.
Another thing that we should analyze is whether it is more reasonable to pay rent or mortgage.If you can control inflation and stable monetary policy, rental is better suited for majority of population. In economic downturn, we won't be entangle in housing crisis. Countries like Spain, US, Ireland are the best example for mortgage crisis. In Germany, people are more likely to rent. Just my observation.
Process of home owner to homeless is messy.
Process of renter to homeless is simple.
so, i've never heard of the 53% and had to do a bit of googling to figure out what it was exactly...i must have shielded myself in a progressive bubble more effectively than i realized...and not surprisingly mike wilson, the man behind the pathetic and slanderous documentary 'michael moore hates america', is one of the 53%'s rabble-rousers. ha, you go mike wilson, you go.
and i didn't even have to scroll far through the 53% blog to find this gem: "I AM NOT JEALOUS OF PEOPLE WHO WORK HARD AND CAN AFFORD REALLY NICE THINGS. I ADMIRE THEM, I AM THE 53%!"
the blatant ignorance of this statement is literally incredible!
here is the new slogan for the 53% "eat shit and like it"
As for the reality of life in America, everyone should have a blood-lusting, head-chopping hate of those running the Washington-Wall Street axis. Those fuckers are a greedy, self-destructive lot who are taking everybody else down with them.
Word yo!
these statements from the 53% are a lot like when rush limbaugh said:
"So the woman comes forth with this frankly hilarious claim that she's having so much sex -- and her buddies with her-- that she can't afford it. And not one person says, did you ever think about maybe backing off the amount of sex that you have?"
of course revealing that rush limbaugh has absolutely no idea how contraception works. yes, all these 53% statements are a lot like that because they make frustratingly obvious that these people 1) don't understand what the 99% are actually mad about (not jealous of) and 2) have no clue how the business ethics of wall street have stooped so low that they are largely unlawful and definitely immoral.
what i admire most about the 99%/occupy movement(s) is that it happened at all. i didn't have the guts to participate because - as part of a business's management in which others are at the mercy of how i'm perceived in public - i'm afraid of potential business consequences.
so, instead, i read these comments and nod my head by myself with my coffee.
we're talking to ourselves, y'all.
those with the moxie to do something are being made fun of and - by now - have been sidelined: brangelina have taken their place in the headlines again and the 1% are safely buffered so that they can continue their reindeer games. they depend on our fear of consequences, knowing that we have to protect the small bits of stability that we can.
and knowing that they can undermine that stability again, not caring.
"and knowing that they can undermine that stability again, not caring."
You are right. They don't care and they aren't going to care until a mob literally breaks through their buffer zone and rips one of their yachting buddies from limb to limb. We've all been trained to think that "violence is not the answer" yet these masters of the universe act with no respect to the law or any conventions of civil society beyond their own clubs/gated communities/yachts & private jets.
Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe those in charge will somehow always manage to maintain power (even if they have to step behind the curtain at times). But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable when they screw up. And since legal & financial penalties, street protests and all that seem to be worthless, then why not starting beating their asses like the misbehaving dogs that they are?
Don't act like the French revolution didn't happen.
And don't act like it can't happen again.
Guillotines, yo!
I don't beat my dog. That's mean. This is not to say that you shouldn't beat an aristocrat. I'm just saying it would be mean to beat my dog. I would like to think a lot of the people involved in the French Revolution also refrained from beating domesticated animals.
My dog never destroyed the economy of western civilization or promoted public policy that allowed people to die form exposure/malnourishment/lack of healthcare/etc. So let's go ahead and look into corporal punishment for rich people without promoting abusive practices.
Thanks.
opinions on spain? the euro issue seems hopeless.
Spain is weird story among E.U members. The regionalism in Spain is more troublesome than beneficial. When Bilbao got its sparking moment, every regions in Spain wanted one. Some of them are total waste of money. Unemployment in Spain is also quite frightening too. It will not only be lost generation but also hopeless generation. Spain doesn't have strong industrial base like France or Germany, and it also cannot compete with London for global finical market. So I think Spain is quite hopeless for now. How will they dig out out of the hole? It will be interesting. May be they should try what Argentina and Russia did. But I don't think Spain have enough land for agriculture or natural resources to dig out as quickly as Russia and Argentina did. Euro issue is truly hopeless in the hand of spineless leaders.
i wouldn't say the occupy movement has been sidelined. it went through a period of reflection and reorganizing over the winter but this spring and summer should be eventful and energetic. these movements don't happen quickly...it took the ACT UP organization around 10 years of actions to bring about the impact and change to be achieved in the FDA, Wall Street, and government that they needed for HIV/AIDS medications.
a fun side note, some creative demonstrators protested outside ann romney's birthday party at the trump tower today dressed as the fictional tax dodgers baseball team:
more pictures of the action on ryan devereaux's twitter feed.
This is not to say that you shouldn't beat an aristocrat. I'm just saying it would be mean to beat my dog. I would like to think a lot of the people involved in the French Revolution also refrained from beating domesticated animals.
curtkram this made me smile. Thank you for that!
Micah, thank you for that reminder that big revolution can and DOES happen slowly. Occupy is still working. A few guillotinings could be right quick, though.
Presumably, your dog doesn't misbehave (as I specified above). But if it pissed on my carpets enough, who knows what I'd do.
But animal rights are a tangent. The point I'm trying to make is that we are supposed to be an enlightened modern society with respect for the rules of law and a willingness to negotiate our way through disputes. Yet, the powers that be act above the law (or rewrite it if needed) and show nothing but disdain for any kind of discussion (whether is be labor unions/street protesters/activists/etc) while profiting for themselves (often at the expense of others).
What's it going to take to get some action out of those with the power to actually make a difference? I doubt they would care if all of those 53% idiots managed to starve themselves to death trying to keep up with their bills. It might take not just the threat of physical pain, but the use of it.
Yo!
personally i'm of the opinion that all protests and actions should remain diligently non-violent.
@HandsumCa$hMoneyYo
Is that precious handmade Persian carpet? I will banish that misbehave poor dog to foster home forever! Just kidding.
Don't compare dogs with these lower Manhattan and DC cows. All these cows know is how to bite you, chew you and spit you out. ooch!
This '53%' movement is making a valid point. Individual responsibility and self discipline is the way forward.
Now if only the 1% would listen.
In the future, I can see the 99% and 53% merging into something big and changing the world for the better.
Why should we pay any taxes at all?
I dont understand, If we pay taxes shouldn't the government use that money to take care of us, help us in some sort of way. Protect us, protect our rights, provide some services, job placement, help us when we're sick. But Instead they imprison us, spread fear with arrests, 1 by 1 take away our rights. It became illegal to protest. I have never been helped by my government in fact my parents were the only ones to help me pay for college. I rather pay them back then the FED. but when I graduated I couldn't find a decent job. Seems to me like my gov. is not doing their job so why should I do mine? Why should I support my oppressor? Why should I take time out of my life to file taxes that are hard to understand? Why should the sheep willingly go to the slaughter house?
When I finished school I started freelancing for cash. And now I work for cash. No more filing taxes, no more feeling sad receiving 67% of my check. And no regret what so ever. I don't own any property and will be able to do it for another 3 years before IRS realizes that I exist.
There is no reason in paying off the FED. That money just goes to paying off our national credit card from the FED reserve, a private bank that has our Gov. in their pocket.
This '53%' movement is making a valid point. Individual responsibility and self discipline is the way forward.
But it's not the way forward. The major complaint with the U.S. is livability. And this isn't necessarily the same term tossed around in architecture where livability equates to some utopian aesthetic and social gesture. Livability is an umbrella term that covers everything from purchasing power parity to park benches.
Currently, in the U.S., wages have been relatively stagnant and even declining in the last two decades— some can be perfectly personal responsible, put in their effort and watch themselves go from being lower-middle class to impoverished in a decade.
Economists like to tout that only about 3% of the workforce is minimum wage. However, ~50% of the U.S. workforce makes less than a living wage.
Fifty percent.
Add on top of the high barriers to workforce such as the ability to qualify for lease contracts, personal loans or automobile loans and you've set up a country to fail. A huge problem right now in the U.S. is that there aren't enough qualified people capable of moving to where jobs currently are.
So, to recap:
And this leads to a bigger problem in community reinvestment— the main factor in preventing blight and having a continuously expanding economy. Why would anyone bother to invest in a community that cannot provide basic standards of living? Why would a company want to expand into a market that is doomed to contract?
But it's not the way forward. The major complaint with the U.S. is livability. And this isn't necessarily the same term tossed around in architecture where livability equates to some utopian aesthetic and social gesture. Livability is an umbrella term that covers everything from purchasing power parity to park benches.
Currently, in the U.S., wages have been relatively stagnant and even declining in the last two decades— some can be perfectly personal responsible, put in their effort and watch themselves go from being lower-middle class to impoverished in a decade.
Economists like to tout that only about 3% of the workforce is minimum wage. However, ~50% of the U.S. workforce makes less than a living wage.
Fifty percent.
Add on top of the high barriers to workforce such as the ability to qualify for lease contracts, personal loans or automobile loans and you've set up a country to fail. A huge problem right now in the U.S. is that there aren't enough qualified people capable of moving to where jobs currently are.
So, to recap:
•1-out-of-2 jobs in the U.S. doesn't pay enough to accrue any significant savings
•Savings are necessary to purchase automobiles, make down payments or pay security deposits
•Finding a better job requires relocating which requires a substantial savings
And this leads to a bigger problem in community reinvestment— the main factor in preventing blight and having a continuously expanding economy. Why would anyone bother to invest in a community that cannot provide basic standards of living? Why would a company want to expand into a market that is doomed to contract?
I don't dispute your facts and the situation you are describing but I do think the solution comes down to individual responsibility, contributing towards the common good and having a sense of self control and awareness.
What we should be asking ourselves is why don't the 1% want to share their wealth? Why has society broken in this manner? What has caused these levels of inequality and how can we change the current attitude towards private wealth and society? It's fine to put up some borders around the US or Europe or wherever and say this is the GDP we create, now if only we could distribute it evenly? In reality though, would people try as hard (and therefore generate as much wealth for the country) if all wealth was distributed evenly? Aside from a strong sense of nationalism, I doubt it. So looking outside of those borders, if the US, Europe suffers and loses it's position in the world. Then what? People such as yourself, do tend to look at the system as one sided and fail to consider why the current system has got into this mess. Banking does, whether we like it or not or whether or not it is 'fair', create a lot of jobs. I know the reality tastes bitter - that the wrong people are rewarded but that is also a sad fact of western society. Are the winners of 'America/ Britain has talent' talented? This is just a reflection of Western society in general rather than the 1% on Wall Street. The west must stop its obsession with individualism and take collective responsibility by not laying the blame at the feet of individuals.
For the people who are suggesting that it is somehow the state's responsibility to distribute wealth and regulate individual 'greed'- Isn't that what the US spent the last century fighting against? Something about individual liberty I recall...
I guess my main point is that we should all behave in the manner we wish others to behave and the world would be a better place right? You don't steal from someone so you expect the same back. You put in an honest day's work and expect everyone else to do the same. Except the West has become obsessed with individuals and 'standing out'. How many people do you know go about their daily lives quietly, peacefully and modestly? Why is this? Because everyone wants fame, status and the high life (to be the 'winner') and nobody wants to be Mr. Ordinary working away quietly until pension age and taking a humble retirement. Why should others have to pay for this. Why should we in the West feel entitled to a house, car, job, food when others in the world have none of them? Again, time to reflect on our own contribution to the world and our impact on it.
Aside from banking, there is a strong winner take all culture in architecture too. Not in terms of money because there just isn't much in the architecture world but in terms of credit. This is just another example of the rampant individualism sweeping the Western world. We worship individuals - architects, celebrities, sportsmen but why? Everything worthwhile in construction and elsewhere is a team effort, a reflection of the working processes of many not just one person. This is one reason why we should think twice about attributing a building to an individual but that is probably a different discussion altogether.
Why do you think Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries have such low levels of inequality? It is not because they are big powerful authoritarian states - if they were they would be at war every 20 years. Instead they have a system which encourages collectivism, social responsibility (that starts with the individual) and the value of society in general. These are things which the West must adopt but that needs to come from within and not from external pressure (such as the state or other force).
Again, If we compare the US and the west to Japan and Asian countries in general. Japan has the lowest murder rate in the world. Why? Because there is a policeman stood on every corner stopping people killing each other? No. It's because people take responsibility for their actions and behaviour and feel a sense of shame for doing wrong. In the west, it is a case of do whatever you can get away with. If nobody stops you (external force) it is ok. What about setting standards for yourself that come from a collective ideology (religion, moral codes etc) to better the world around you?
To summarise, I think we could narrow this down to the question of what has caused this failure of the capitalist system which you accurately described. Is it a systematic or humane problem? Does the problem lie with the system or the behaviour of the individuals within it? I strongly beleive it to be the latter. I believe in capitalism when it works and I'm sure you do too but it has lost it's way and the only way forward is for the West to pause and take a long hard at itself and ask itself what it can do to help. Why should I expect bankers to share what they earn if I don't contribute my share? Camping outside Wall Street has the right intentions, and I applaud people for having the courage to try to change the world but the long term solution lies in reflection and a greater sense of self awareness for everyone, not just the 1%. Perhaps it's also time to realise that with 'individual liberty' comes individual responsibility. Something the West has never seemed to quite understand.
Dots, I follow your argument but am unclear: what would you propose to DO about it?
just to quickly comment on what dots said, i agree the 99% could do more to make the narrative about inequality more inclusive instead of constantly placing blame on the 1%. (suspending the fact for now that many of these people have committed crimes according to our agreed upon set of laws that have only been propped up by bailouts, etc)
at the same time, occupy is definitely trying to do exactly what you've explained. there is a clear narrative that we the people and our government has a responsibility to the society we choose to create and the cultivation of solidarity and brotherhood with one another. the entire point of the protests are an attempt to change the course of the nation towards a future that is better for us all. i also think that your proposal for the nation "to pause and take a long hard at itself and ask itself what it can do to help" is exactly the messy and arduous process that we are currently witnessing. no one should expect a movement as widespread as this to camp out one night and then the next day reach some kind of level of supreme enlightenment with all the solutions succinctly expressed. i'm not saying you personally believe they should, but you do suggest that that very thing isn't happening.
a big problem is that most people just don't take the time to hear occupy out due to the polarization of this countries politics or engage with the process due to a culture of apathy or cynicism about governmental change.
As long as people are willing to accept the concept of “Too Bing to Fail”, they will have to deal with “Too Small to Care” crap too.
I think a lot of people are not asking to re-distribute the wealth. Many of us are simply asking to stop gaming the system.
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies..."
Thomas Jefferson quotes. Love it!
The Federal Reserve System is not a governmental system. It is hardly quasi governmental organization.
Dots, I follow your argument but am unclear: what would you propose to DO about it?
Socialism.
just to quickly comment on what dots said, i agree the 99% could do more to make the narrative about inequality more inclusive instead of constantly placing blame on the 1%. (suspending the fact for now that many of these people have committed crimes according to our agreed upon set of laws that have only been propped up by bailouts, etc)
at the same time, occupy is definitely trying to do exactly what you've explained. there is a clear narrative that we the people and our government has a responsibility to the society we choose to create and the cultivation of solidarity and brotherhood with one another. the entire point of the protests are an attempt to change the course of the nation towards a future that is better for us all. i also think that your proposal for the nation "to pause and take a long hard at itself and ask itself what it can do to help" is exactly the messy and arduous process that we are currently witnessing. no one should expect a movement as widespread as this to camp out one night and then the next day reach some kind of level of supreme enlightenment with all the solutions succinctly expressed. i'm not saying you personally believe they should, but you do suggest that that very thing isn't happening.
a big problem is that most people just don't take the time to hear occupy out due to the polarization of this countries politics or engage with the process due to a culture of apathy or cynicism about governmental change.
Since when has the US lived according to a set of rules? The standards in Western capitalism is defined by profit margins and shareholder greed. Take a look at US foreign policy post WWII for example, does this uphold your idea of US standards of morality or fairness? Is it fair that millions of people have lived impoverished to provide first world lifestyles for US citizens? Why do Americans only care when reality hits their own country and starts to affect their own lifestyle?
The point I am trying to make is that the US system (free market capitalism and foreign policy in particular) is unsustainable and has been for a very long time. What we are seeing now is this system turning in on itself.
As for progress, the US should start with it's foreign policy. Don't you think the US currently has too much power? It is the world's sole superpower - can do whatever it wants (whether it's 'fair' or 'just') and get away with it. Can bully other countries into compliance, replace governments whenever it sees fit and dictate who is allowed to do what and when - Too much power in a single pair of hands.
When you say 'a future that is better for us all' do you mean all in the US? Or the world?
What we should be asking ourselves is why don't the 1% want to share their wealth?
Because Jesus said God would reward them. So "I am rich because Jesus approves of ME not of you, you poor inner city black kid."
Obviously I'm being facetious, but that attitude DOES exist among many in our society, especially many of the very wealthy.
"What we should be asking ourselves is why don't the 1% want to share their wealth?"
Sorry but that's a dumb question. It doesn't (and it shouldn't) matter if they want to or not. In a democracy there is simply no way that a minority of 1% will have their way with anything. Even a functioning representative republic should have a enough checks and balances to keep such a small minority in check.
But the USA is no longer a democracy. Surprise! :)
It is, however, an excellent example of corporatist capitalism run amok. And that hints at the root of the problem. It's not really a financial crisis that is enveloping the developed world but a political/government crisis. A better question for Americans:
What we should be asking ourselves is whether we want democratic country or capitalist country?
You can't have both, yo!
when i said an agreed upon set of laws, that was just a stupid way of me saying that the 1%'s actions are illegal. i never said the behaviors of wallstreet are anything new or that our government has ever properly adhered to it's constitution. i'm actually agreeing with you and saying that it doesn't.
maybe i didn't understand the intent of your post (and maybe i'm still interpreting it wrong) but i am confused because occupy is largely a very social(ist) movement and is also VERY aware of how our policies and actions in our country negatively affect the rest of the world. actually, if you listen to the occupiers many of them call for the end of capitalism, an end to foreign occupation, etc. and yet, you seem to either dismiss it or not realize occupy's potential. you say it has the right intentions but something about it will never work. ("I applaud people for having the courage to try to change the world but the long term solution lies in reflection and a greater sense of self awareness for everyone") if you want progress in the u.s's foreign policy, where do you propose that change should begin if it's not a national popular movement?
essentially, you're saying these things and yet here is occupy right in front of you wanting to offer solutions to the questions you raise. i just don't get it.
Micah - I understand your point and after re-reading what I posted before it does sound very confusing.
I guess my point is that socialism probably can't or won't work in the US (and here in the UK too) at present. Mainly because we don't have access to a true socialist party when we vote - there are probably some in existence somewhere but their profile is so low that they don't stand any realistic chance of being able to compete with the two or three main parties. 'Left wing' by US and UK standards is also still relatively right wing in comparison to the European left - A socialist presidential candidate has just won the first round of voting in France where socialism really means genuine socialism for example. There is a reason why such a party doesn't exist and probably has something to do with 'corporate influence' like you mentioned.
Also for socialism to be voted in, people would need to want change and although Occupy do, I'm not convinced that the millions living mainstream lifestyles across the US do? The ordinary guy needs to be aware of the damage which capitalism does, but no media (with profit as their agenda) will want to tell people these. Further, the US and UK are very much seen by socialist countries where entrepeneur's or 'tycoons' can escape too. If we remove this restriction, they may well move to part of the developing world which would not be a good thing. Imagine China suddenly becoming the home to the majority of the world's billionaires. This could be avoided by a shift away from globalisation with policies aimed towards 'localism' - communities, facilities, servcies, taxes etc. Systems where people work and live within their own communities and therefore take responsibility for the upkeep of them.
As for finding a solution, I think it will either take something very big (a revolutionary event) or a change of philosophy/ mindset at the top of society (the 1%). As the 1% seem unable to feel any sense of shame or take any responsibility for their actions, this is unlikely. However, this could happen if people abstained from voting (out of protest against the system being undemocratic), or if people supported localism over globalisation etc. The behaviour of the 1% will only change in my opinion if they are forced to observe their own actions as the rest of us must also do. This is why we also desperately need spiritual guidance in society whether it be religion or other. Also, hopefully with more balanced global authorities (UN, NATO, G8 etc) the power will be more evenly balanced between socialist/ communist ideologies and free market capitalist. This won't happen though if the US continues to pick and choose presidents for other countries and continues meddling in their affairs. I think the power balance is finally shifting with the rise of China, India etc and the rejection in Europe of free market principles and globalisation.
There are some suggestions that the behaviour of the 1% is centred on fear and insecurity. Other suggestions being the deep rooted class system and others suggest general sociopathic behaviour! First two are cultural and can be changed. Not sure about the third though!!!
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