So here is my dilemma - I've taken a few studios, and drafted/designed some for a firm over the summer... however that doesn't change the fact that I am still a Psych BA, preparing for M.Arch. I've designed a mall restaurant, and worked on a private residence, but that's about it. Set design probably has some weight, but not much...
Now, I might get a chance to remodel this couple's house, but I need to let them know how much I would charge for design, drafting, coordinating the engineers, and running to the City to get this stuff approved. They want to change the master bedroom/bath, and the kitchen/family area - so it will involve changing more than half of the house.
Residential clients are notorious for changing their minds and requiring an unbelievable amount of handholding (don't believe their 'good intentions') ... charge by the hour, with no fixed limit. If you want to give them an estimate, do so by all means. But make sure they understand you could go above that estimate if the work proves to be more complex than they are saying it is or they require more of your time than they say they will need.
The other side of your question is "how much of my time will be required" ... if you can't answer that question with much certainty, you'll get screwed by a fix fee arrangement.
hm... to be honest, I have NO IDEA how much time this will take! I'm guessing at least 100 hours, probably way more.
Anyone have experience with this?
Also, I am trying to charge them less, so I can actually work - they are considering working with a real architect, not a student in need of practice...
ah, the old "trading money for experience" ruse ... alas, the road to perdition.
be careful, my friend ... if you're not qualified to accomplish the work, no matter how cheap your fee, you're likely to end up with an unhappy client and find yourself in a hole you'll never dig yourself out of.
somehow i get the feeling here that most of the 'senior' folk on archinect try to shoot down youngsters tying to achieve something. I guess its clear whom im pointing to.
Anyways if you assume a 100 hours, you should charge a minimum of $30 an hour (and if you assume a 100 hours, it will go upto 120-150 for sure), so let the clients know that your range will be $3000 to (say)$4000 depending on the changes incurred. The only way to learn the billing process if you do it on your own...good luck.
Here are a few things to think about, in no particular order:
Experienced residential architects often give clients write-ups about the different possible levels of professional services. Often they will explain that a project that involves merely "builder plans" - i.e floor and foundation plans, elevations, framing, and the minimum number of sections necessary to adequately tell them how to build the project - will be in one fee range (which could be anywhere from 4% to 10% of construction costs, depending on the firm), while a scope of services that includes more information (lighting plans, built-ins, coordination with additional designers, approval of shop drawings from cabinet makers, etc.) will command a higher percentage (which could be anywhere from 7% to 17% of construction costs, depending on the firm...) Additionally: renderings, models, and a long list of other things are "additional services" billed separately.
You may want to look at the AIA's "Architect's Handbook of Professional Practice" for much more info on this.
Do NOT assume (and don't tell your client) that just because the project is in a locale that doesn't require a licensed architect or engineer to stamp residential drawings that you will be able to get regulatory approval for this project without a stamp. Final determinations rest solely with local building officials, many of whom will not approve projects that do not at least include stamped sections. Keep in mind that officials are able to make this type of decision on a case-by-case basis, and are more likely to refuse to issue permits on the project if they sense that you are inexperienced.
Make sure your client understands the above issue. IF they find that getting permits is a problem, they need to understand that they may need to hire someone else to review and stamp the drawings. In many states it is illegal for a professional to "plan stamp" sets that they did not work on directly. So anyone stamping them legitimately will usually require at least 10 hours to thoroughly review the drawings and delineate any changes that need to occur. The firm in which I work gets calls to do this on a regular basis. We charge a minimum of $100 per hour for 10 hours to review sets. Our fee of course increases if we find that additional time is needed to remediate problems. So your client needs to know that this is a possibility. People who come to us for this review are often highly unhappy with their original designer at this point, because they were assured that they would not need a licensed professional for a "simple" residential project in this state.
If you can get your client to agree to an hourly fee this would be ideal. Unfortunately clients are more and more unlikely to agree to that fee method, partly because a lot of publications about home improvement and about "how to deal with your architect" caution them not to pay by the hour. If you do agree to a low, fixed fee then be VERY careful to get a signed contract detailing exactly what is and is not included in your services. Residential projects can stretch out with many changes-of-mind, stops and starts - sometimes over the course of several years, and they usually involve inexperienced clients without clear programs and priorities, and with wish-lists that far exceed their budgets.
The AIA does publish guides to average salaries for architecture firm employees and principals - but they do not publish any information on average professional fees or project costs. They have not done so since the 1980s, when they were ordered to cease this form of "price fixing."
I do not intend any of this to discourage you. I do feel that you should do some more research into the tasks included in various project phases, into professional contracts, and into whether unregistered designers typically do get their projects through local approval in this particular jurisdiction. Good luck.
: that's not my intent at all ... being "senior", i've seen lots of "youngsters" plow naively into freelance situations and find their world turned upside down by the experience. in many cases, such experiences have soured the young professional on the profession and caused them extreme financial hardship
i'm all for young professionals learning the ways of the profession by serving clients directly ... lizok asked a question ... i shared an honest perspective and i think that's fair.
if you'll read my posts carefully, you'll note that all i'm really suggesting is that he price his services in such a manner as to not absorb all of the risk himself. but, your post is good too !
vado - Ha! I don't know, might have to! Arch student life gets hard. My problem thus far has been lack of time for anything besides studio... food and sleep have become precious!
Thank you everyone! This has been really helpful! I'll do some research, see if I can at least sound informed when I talk to the clients.
Is everyone trying to scare this person half to death? Someone wants to move a couple walls in their suburban McMansion [assuming], and wants to hire someone with a creative eye. Given many of the homes I've seen, most home-owners just do the design on their own - and very poorly.
Does this client have a contractor yet? I would suggest a design build situation. You can come up with the design, allowing some professional contractor input. (Mostly for constructability since you admit your inexperience.) Then the contractor is responsibile for obtaining permit. A city bldg department shouldn't have a problem with an experienced contractor, but will question an inexperienced student. Key is having the owner pick a damn good contractor. In housing especially, many aren't that good.
So in the end, the contractor is carrying the weight while you take the design credit. Most homeowners do it the same way, but they just don't have the design sense themselves. In this situation I wouldn't worry about AIA pay guidelines for the fee. I'm guessing you'll just take the pay as cash under the table. If so a flat fee would be easiest but just don't work for free.
A: it really depends on the particular municipality. My firm frequently gets work in the form of small project fragments, from contractors who thought they could get their projects through the local officials without a stamp, but were told they needed sealed sections and framing plans for things as small as a 6'x8' porch, projects involving tiny dormer extensions, and even moving a few walls or widening an opening in a wall to put in a pair of french doors.
Lately I've been seeing requests on places like craigslist from homeowners asking for someone to check and stamp sets because their contractor can't get a permit. This is a widespread situation in this locale, but I know that many other municipalities are more lenient. It's worth talking to builders and other designers in the area to see how much (if any) trouble they've had getting permits.
After turning away a few potential clients I made a conscious decision to avoid doing freelance work before becoming licensed. Most of the people in the market for the type of services I would be able to offer are, at best, only looking for permit drawings for mundane residential additions/alterations. They are often unsure whether they even want to build at all and may just be using the young freelancer as a source for ideas before either going to a more established architect or dealing directly with a contractor.
As I see it, projects like that won't provide any useful material to add to my protfolio, won't provide me much more experience than I've been able to gain through a firm, and won't count toward IDP. They WILL expose me to all the risks and liabilities associated with practicing unlicensed. It's just not worth that for the few hundred extra bucks I might make in a year taking those projects on.
May 24, 06 9:44 am ·
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How much should I get paid?
Hello Archinecters.
So here is my dilemma - I've taken a few studios, and drafted/designed some for a firm over the summer... however that doesn't change the fact that I am still a Psych BA, preparing for M.Arch. I've designed a mall restaurant, and worked on a private residence, but that's about it. Set design probably has some weight, but not much...
Now, I might get a chance to remodel this couple's house, but I need to let them know how much I would charge for design, drafting, coordinating the engineers, and running to the City to get this stuff approved. They want to change the master bedroom/bath, and the kitchen/family area - so it will involve changing more than half of the house.
I'm thinking $1500-$2000
Feedback?
Residential clients are notorious for changing their minds and requiring an unbelievable amount of handholding (don't believe their 'good intentions') ... charge by the hour, with no fixed limit. If you want to give them an estimate, do so by all means. But make sure they understand you could go above that estimate if the work proves to be more complex than they are saying it is or they require more of your time than they say they will need.
The other side of your question is "how much of my time will be required" ... if you can't answer that question with much certainty, you'll get screwed by a fix fee arrangement.
The AIA has salary standards that most firms follow closely. I'm sure your area AIA office can help you with a copy.
hm... to be honest, I have NO IDEA how much time this will take! I'm guessing at least 100 hours, probably way more.
Anyone have experience with this?
Also, I am trying to charge them less, so I can actually work - they are considering working with a real architect, not a student in need of practice...
ah, the old "trading money for experience" ruse ... alas, the road to perdition.
be careful, my friend ... if you're not qualified to accomplish the work, no matter how cheap your fee, you're likely to end up with an unhappy client and find yourself in a hole you'll never dig yourself out of.
somehow i get the feeling here that most of the 'senior' folk on archinect try to shoot down youngsters tying to achieve something. I guess its clear whom im pointing to.
Anyways if you assume a 100 hours, you should charge a minimum of $30 an hour (and if you assume a 100 hours, it will go upto 120-150 for sure), so let the clients know that your range will be $3000 to (say)$4000 depending on the changes incurred. The only way to learn the billing process if you do it on your own...good luck.
Here are a few things to think about, in no particular order:
Experienced residential architects often give clients write-ups about the different possible levels of professional services. Often they will explain that a project that involves merely "builder plans" - i.e floor and foundation plans, elevations, framing, and the minimum number of sections necessary to adequately tell them how to build the project - will be in one fee range (which could be anywhere from 4% to 10% of construction costs, depending on the firm), while a scope of services that includes more information (lighting plans, built-ins, coordination with additional designers, approval of shop drawings from cabinet makers, etc.) will command a higher percentage (which could be anywhere from 7% to 17% of construction costs, depending on the firm...) Additionally: renderings, models, and a long list of other things are "additional services" billed separately.
You may want to look at the AIA's "Architect's Handbook of Professional Practice" for much more info on this.
Do NOT assume (and don't tell your client) that just because the project is in a locale that doesn't require a licensed architect or engineer to stamp residential drawings that you will be able to get regulatory approval for this project without a stamp. Final determinations rest solely with local building officials, many of whom will not approve projects that do not at least include stamped sections. Keep in mind that officials are able to make this type of decision on a case-by-case basis, and are more likely to refuse to issue permits on the project if they sense that you are inexperienced.
Make sure your client understands the above issue. IF they find that getting permits is a problem, they need to understand that they may need to hire someone else to review and stamp the drawings. In many states it is illegal for a professional to "plan stamp" sets that they did not work on directly. So anyone stamping them legitimately will usually require at least 10 hours to thoroughly review the drawings and delineate any changes that need to occur. The firm in which I work gets calls to do this on a regular basis. We charge a minimum of $100 per hour for 10 hours to review sets. Our fee of course increases if we find that additional time is needed to remediate problems. So your client needs to know that this is a possibility. People who come to us for this review are often highly unhappy with their original designer at this point, because they were assured that they would not need a licensed professional for a "simple" residential project in this state.
If you can get your client to agree to an hourly fee this would be ideal. Unfortunately clients are more and more unlikely to agree to that fee method, partly because a lot of publications about home improvement and about "how to deal with your architect" caution them not to pay by the hour. If you do agree to a low, fixed fee then be VERY careful to get a signed contract detailing exactly what is and is not included in your services. Residential projects can stretch out with many changes-of-mind, stops and starts - sometimes over the course of several years, and they usually involve inexperienced clients without clear programs and priorities, and with wish-lists that far exceed their budgets.
The AIA does publish guides to average salaries for architecture firm employees and principals - but they do not publish any information on average professional fees or project costs. They have not done so since the 1980s, when they were ordered to cease this form of "price fixing."
I do not intend any of this to discourage you. I do feel that you should do some more research into the tasks included in various project phases, into professional contracts, and into whether unregistered designers typically do get their projects through local approval in this particular jurisdiction. Good luck.
: that's not my intent at all ... being "senior", i've seen lots of "youngsters" plow naively into freelance situations and find their world turned upside down by the experience. in many cases, such experiences have soured the young professional on the profession and caused them extreme financial hardship
i'm all for young professionals learning the ways of the profession by serving clients directly ... lizok asked a question ... i shared an honest perspective and i think that's fair.
if you'll read my posts carefully, you'll note that all i'm really suggesting is that he price his services in such a manner as to not absorb all of the risk himself. but, your post is good too !
quizzical, sorry for my rant, just having a bad day at the office trying to help out some 'senior' people here with their stuff and facing resistance!
if it doesnt work outyou can always apply at that restaurant you designed...
vado - Ha! I don't know, might have to! Arch student life gets hard. My problem thus far has been lack of time for anything besides studio... food and sleep have become precious!
Thank you everyone! This has been really helpful! I'll do some research, see if I can at least sound informed when I talk to the clients.
Is everyone trying to scare this person half to death? Someone wants to move a couple walls in their suburban McMansion [assuming], and wants to hire someone with a creative eye. Given many of the homes I've seen, most home-owners just do the design on their own - and very poorly.
Does this client have a contractor yet? I would suggest a design build situation. You can come up with the design, allowing some professional contractor input. (Mostly for constructability since you admit your inexperience.) Then the contractor is responsibile for obtaining permit. A city bldg department shouldn't have a problem with an experienced contractor, but will question an inexperienced student. Key is having the owner pick a damn good contractor. In housing especially, many aren't that good.
So in the end, the contractor is carrying the weight while you take the design credit. Most homeowners do it the same way, but they just don't have the design sense themselves. In this situation I wouldn't worry about AIA pay guidelines for the fee. I'm guessing you'll just take the pay as cash under the table. If so a flat fee would be easiest but just don't work for free.
A: it really depends on the particular municipality. My firm frequently gets work in the form of small project fragments, from contractors who thought they could get their projects through the local officials without a stamp, but were told they needed sealed sections and framing plans for things as small as a 6'x8' porch, projects involving tiny dormer extensions, and even moving a few walls or widening an opening in a wall to put in a pair of french doors.
Lately I've been seeing requests on places like craigslist from homeowners asking for someone to check and stamp sets because their contractor can't get a permit. This is a widespread situation in this locale, but I know that many other municipalities are more lenient. It's worth talking to builders and other designers in the area to see how much (if any) trouble they've had getting permits.
After turning away a few potential clients I made a conscious decision to avoid doing freelance work before becoming licensed. Most of the people in the market for the type of services I would be able to offer are, at best, only looking for permit drawings for mundane residential additions/alterations. They are often unsure whether they even want to build at all and may just be using the young freelancer as a source for ideas before either going to a more established architect or dealing directly with a contractor.
As I see it, projects like that won't provide any useful material to add to my protfolio, won't provide me much more experience than I've been able to gain through a firm, and won't count toward IDP. They WILL expose me to all the risks and liabilities associated with practicing unlicensed. It's just not worth that for the few hundred extra bucks I might make in a year taking those projects on.
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