sorry to say but i don't think you should name drop on the resume. i think the name dropping on a resume might come across as trying too hard. think about it, any of your other classmates could do the exact same thing so it really doesn't set you apart from anyone. unless you actually have a good working relationship w/ said individual, it won't really get you far. having so-and-so teach your class quite different from so-and-so actually writing you a really good recommendation.

uhm , guess if you actually worked with them then they would make a good reference (always ask for it), but otherwise i would generally avoid it. being taught a class by prestigious professor doesn't make you any better, he was teaching to a class he had no choice over. unless they were your design tutor, in which case you might namedrop refering to particular projects in your work examples, i would avoid it. my opinion, but i am no emplyer.

i agree for resumes. the only place i've listed a known name on my resume is in a situation in which i was a co-instructor with that person. i also list relatively lesser-known people with whom i worked in the same capacity.

for portfolio materials however it's much more natural to include information about your instructor(s). in a lot of ways they're your collaborators on the project.

you mean you wasted all that money on harvard and you need to shop your resume around? i thought connections were the main benefit of going to the GSD. surely your dad is a neurosurgeon or something...can't he ask the architect who did your family's summer house in the berkshires to make you like a job captain or something? i thought resumes were just for us state-school proles.

you're completely free to mention that you went to harvard, sure, but only include the names of your "famous" professors if they have specifically agreed IN WRITING to give you a positive reference. and

DO NOT go to any greater lengths in your resume to emphasize the deans and professors whose asses you kissed for three to five years.

nah...seriously, why don't you just go the typical rich-kid route and ask your uncle to commission a loft interior in chelsea or something? that way you can put your GSD education to really good use and you don't have to waste time working for people like me who will actually expect you to show up and do flashing details.

sounds reasonable, i'm not usually a name-dropper but i wasn't sure maybe i should be. thanks.

as far as references -- is it standard to list refences on resumes these days or is it just assumed that you have them available?

ochona - you have no idea how off-course you are.

i never said i went to the gsd, i am hardly a rich-kid, and i have absolutely no history of being an ass-kisser but rather of being someone who's been actively involved and outgoing.

i am trying to figure out the best way to work a resume that is mostly filled with school stuff and very little actual work experience (i'm young and have to start somewhere!). when listing work experience you get to list who you worked for. i was just wondering whether it was reasonable to do the same in the context of educational experience.

just my opinion, but i don't think name dropping on your resume would increase your chances of getting an interview, but come interview time, i say bombs away.

name dropping sounds lame, but you'd be suprised how often my interviews have been directed towards talk of professors i've had in the past, even without my inititating it -"you went to XXXX? do you know XXXX, he was the best man at my wedding.", etc.

if the name helps you to network with the interviewer i say include it in you cover letter, otherwise, who cares?

chances of working for a name right out of school are slim. right out of school - undergrad - i worked for a small firm and busted my ass for a year and a half. learned some of the in's and out's and got to manage a couple of projects - nothing glamorous - a jail expansion and a juevenile detention center. i got lucky and my name was passed to a stararchitect and started working two weeks later for $7 and hour - i was making $20/hr at previous job. worked my ass off for six months (100+ hours a week typically), then moved beacuse of a girl (idiot). sent my resume to another star where i had moved. interviewed on friday and started on monday. i started lower on the payscale, but moved up rather quickly because once again i worked my ass off (over 2.5 years of working there i averaged 65hrs/wk). by doing this i wasn't stuck doing interior elevations all day (granted i did shit work for a couple of months) and when i left i had a lot of responsiblity (had to work 3 months after putting in my notice). i left that office to get my masters. if you did work under some names during school why don't you approach them to try to get your foot in the door. random resumes sent to offices usually never make it past the receptionist.

tongue was inserted firmly in cheek. but hey: you now see my point and frankly, it was illustrated much better with satire than seriousness.

in your post -- and in my faux reaction (i really don't care one way or another, if you didn't go to UT i won't hire you regardless...also a joke) -- you see what dropping names and throwing words like "prestigious" and the like does to some potential employers, many of whom went to unfamous schools studying under unfamous (wo)men.

your portfolio and your work experience do the talking when you shop for a job. if you have very little work experience, then i guess you can put down committees, activities, and the like...but i WAS serious when i said to NOT NAME NAMES unless they are concrete references. really emphasize the little work experience you do have.

because otherwise you look like a name-dropper who went to nepal during the summers instead of schlepping out the trash at a nameless faceless architecture firm in the suburbs in order to get experience.

the "references" section of your resume is specifically for name-dropping. but, if you do that anywhere else, they will laugh at you.

ok, just for clarification purposes: my education was a masters, and i have done a bit on the level of working for no-names. i said "prestigious" with no intention to sound pretentious, it was just a quick way to say that i've had experience with recognizable names. i guess reading back over my original comment i probably should've worded my question differently. it's a discussion board, so whatever, let's not make this personal.

anyways, maybe to turn my question just slightly: i will have personal contacts occasionally when i apply specific places, but in others i know that some of my references will be useful. i mean this in that i'd expect that some places would see a certain name as a reference and it'd be worthwhile, even if i haven't specifically asked my reference to write a special recommendation to that particular firm. so should i list the names of my references at the bottom of my resume, or somewhere in my cover letter? should i include my references' contact information or supply it upon request?

the other question i have is about whether i should include "coursework" under educational experience. listing certain types of courses would be a quick way to show my particular slant and set of interests. my bachelors were in non-architecture fields so i've always included coursework there to help explain simply how those degrees led me to architecture. i'm afraid that if i try to do this in full sentences in my cover letter instead of bullet points in my resume it'd be too lengthy.

now it's 100% clear to me what your situation is.

emphasize your work experience. employers want to know that.

never ever EVER put someone on your resume who hasn't agreed IN WRITING to give you a positive general reference IN CASE someone calls or e-mails.

i say this because, let's say you took a class with, i dunno, glenn murcutt. glenn's one of my personal heroes but he's an irascible guy. and he prolly makes a whole lot of money being a professional visiting critic at finer schools everywhere.

so the principal of xyz architects in sioux city calls glenn murcutt to get a reference.

if glenn answers the phone or the e-mail (which he probably won't) he'll probably very curtly say, "i teach a lot of students, i don't remember that name" or something similar. it'll make you look really stupid.

but if you made glenn's life special while he was at your school, if he really liked you and not just in the final review, then ask him to put down on paper that you can list him as a reference.

and if you want to talk about your interests and coursework, do most of that in the cover letter. don't power-point your interests, be eloquent about them.

i would add that references should be on a separate piece of paper (or just separate from the resume).

the resume should be about you, and there should be a line at the bottom which says "references and portfolio available upon request" or something.

one of the goals of your resume should be to be as direct as possible. if you've got a two page resume right out of school, you're inflating WAY too much stuff. be succinct. highlight what's important.

Name dropping on resume doesn't make a good impression, resume is about you, not about who you know.

I've been a student of Aldo Rossi. While I was at the university, attending his laboratory, he was developing his idea for the new Quartier Schützenstrasse in Berlin Our project was re-thinkng this lot in Berlin. He actually used lots of ideas and details which are from my class and other classes.
Should i mention his name on my resume? No, everybody will laugh at me. Have i learned something more from him than other classmates in other laboratories or universities with other professors? No, I just had the pleasure to listen directly from him what he wrote in his books.

I never had any special regards just because i was one of the many aldo rossi's students, during interviews I've always being asked to show my portfolio and my experience.

On my curriculum vitae (i.e. the version of my resume I use for applying for teaching positions, and for creating faculty bios for schools' websites and such) I list every teaching position, teaching assistantship, and fellowship I ever had. In that case I list the people I co-taught with, TA'd for, etc. (regardless of whether I am still in contact with those people, or in some cases even still on good terms with them.) I also have a section on that resume for all the schools at which I've been a guest critic, and for which faculty members' studios.

But none of that appears on the resume that I use for applying to architecture firms. I do list schools at which I've taught recently (or am currently teaching) but all the rest goes away.

Most of the resumes that I see that list "coursework" are from interns seeking their first job in a firm. In that case it's not a bad idea to list relevant course areas - for example it helps an interviewer to know if most of your focus has been on history and theory or on mastering software or on project management - or a blend of all of these, or if you have some other focus entirely (the last person we interviewed had quite a lot of computer programming courses listed on his architecture resume.) So, while you seem to want to list your courses as reason to list your professors, you should be aware that listing your courses at all may peg you as very entry-level.

Similarly, most of those school committees that you served on are likely to drop off your resume within a year or two of graduating anyway - much like the way that most people start to remove most or all of their student work from their portfolios by the time they're two years past graduation.

Usually if the person interviewing you is familiar enough with your prestigious university that it would be a factor that mattered to them,then they'd be familiar with who was teaching there these days. You'll find that in interviews you'll be asked a lot of "so, you must have had Professor X for drawing?" kinds of questions, from anyone who cares. If they don't ask then they either don't care or they don't know anyone from your university...

What I'd recommend though, since you're applying for jobs in a new city, is that you check your alumni directory and call some people there. Tell them you're new to the city and would value some advice from someone established there. Take them to lunch and ask them to recommend some firms that you should apply to.

aluminate - thanks for the response. your point about whether the interviewer is familiar or not being related to whether they'd care is right on, thanks for that perspective.

you wrote: "So, while you seem to want to list your courses as reason to list your professors, you should be aware that listing your courses at all may peg you as very entry-level."
--- as far as the coursework and school committee stuff:
- my intentions to list school courses isn't in order to list professors (i think i explained that above, that i was listing courses in order to bullet-point my interests and the relevance of my non-arch undergrad).
- i am aware that listing this stuff does point out my youth and inexperience. on the other hand, my concern is that NOT listing it would make me seem even less experienced and mature. the truth is, i have a limited beyond-school resume as i've been in school straight-through my whole life. i do have some summer & part-time work experience, but it's limited. i AM at the beginning and there's nothing i can do to hide that, so i'm trying to figure out how to best spin it and illustrate the depth of my involvement and capacity in what i HAVE accomplished so far.

a lot of you seem to have experience in looking at the resumes of "inexperienced" applicants and a few of you have said (in other threads as well) that there are certain things to put on resumes that scream "recent student". what is the most positive way to put this stuff together and look desirable to a potential employer when i AM a recent student?


i'm narrowing down my questions, so here's one more specific one that might be useful: while in school i was a TA for a particular professor. i currently list that experience but i list it as "TA for class XYZ" etc without naming who i TA'd for. in my list of references I have his name. should my resume have those connected? would a potential employer simply ask me at an interview what my relationship to each reference was or should i have that spelled out in advance?

thanks!

If you're listing TA gigs on your resume then it won't hurt anything to list the name of the professor along with the course name.

I interview a lot of interns and they rarely provide a list of references at the interview. Usually at that point I have their resume in front of me, but I'm not likely to ask for a list of references until later - usually at a point when we've narrowed down the field a little. I'm not saying that you shouldn't provide the reference list upfront - just that the interviewer may not really think to look this over early on.
To be honest, I often just skim resumes to see whether candidates do or don't make our cut to qualify for an interview - then I schedule the interview and don't really examine the resumes with a fine-tooth comb until the interview or sometimes even afterward. Often I just use the resume to help the conversation move along (saying "so, I see here you spent three summers as a counselor at computer camp" or "tell me about the project that got honorable mention in the National Glass Block Council competition".)

As far as the entry-level issue: there isn't a lot you can do when you're looking for your first internship, or first job after graduation, to disguise the fact that you're new. And I didn't really mean that you should try to. I understand that you need something at this point to make up a resume, so coursework is fine. I just meant that soon this whole category will probably go away. You only need it in order to find that first job.

As far as what things can make a resume look just a little too amateurish (which is a whole different issue than just lack of experience), some that come to mind are: little thumbnail project images on the resume itself (these always turn to smudges when photocopied. Remember that your interview is likely to be with more than one person, each of whom will have a copy of your resume, so don't put anything on your resume that won't withstand photocopying); listing highschool activities - unless they're directly related to the job OR you just graduated from highschool; listing your GPA, especially to multiple decimal points; including an "Objective" line that states what you're looking for in a job instead of what you can do for the firm (but don't feel that you must include an objective line at all.)

Some other related things to keep in mind: make sure your answering machine message is appropriate for prospective employers to hear. Make sure you get good directions to your interviews and that you make every effort to be on time. Send thank you notes immediately after the interview - even if you hated the firm and have no intention of working there. If you are in fact interested in the job make sure to mention that in the note. Ask for the cards of the people you meet in the firm. Mention them in your note.

ochana, how did you come up with sioux city for your example city?

A name like “Byrle” is no picnic. No one drops the name “Byrle” anytime or anywhere. Because, frankly, it sounds like quite an elderly, shuffleboard type who is just thinking about memories pretty much. Somebody who’s just not thinking straight anymore. And nobody thinks that guy important because of an assumed lack of virility. Rather, they think him impotent. Impotent in terms of his basic value to the society and so on.
So, I’m still pretty young and virile and everything but I’ve got this damn name “Byrle” and it’s no picnic (see above). That’s why I’m a heavy name-dropper. What I do on the resume is “hot-drop.” You don’t want to approach a potential employer with names of the deceased. Plus, with a name like “Byrle” you had better “hot-drop” often and loud lest you be relegated to the periphery of the red hot job market. Please don’t mumble the names.
The market is starting to pick-up in terms of kicking ass and now’s the time to really try to get an edge in terms of presenting yourself as a viable candidate with plenty of future earnings potential for all involved parties, a fact no better conveyed than through a stated association, however brief, with some of the biggest movers and shakers in the business. Listen, using this simple technique I’ve moved ahead of the competition. Here’s why: the potential employer gets super intimidated. They hear the name of some hot shot they admire and envy and fear and they start getting real insecure. And then they want to sort of compete. They switch it around in their head like they’re stealing you away from the hot shot and that makes them feel great. What you need are VIABLE SOLUTIONS.

at the firm I used to work for, I saw a lot of resumes for internships. one guy put on his resume that he "talked to Zaha Hadid." at least he made us laugh.

wait, i don't get it.

under the "education" heading of my resume, why should i not list as a bullet point:
"-took studios with [critic x], [critic y], and [critic z]"?

at any interview i've had before it's always the first question i get: oh, who did you take studio with? if they see i've taken studio (and thus worked directly) with a certain architect they like, isn't that a good thing? they'll know i've been exposed to that architect's ideas and design methodologies (and thus would perhaps be a good candidate to work at this firm). i guess they would see who my critics have been in my portfolio, but i generally don't send a portfolio right away, just a resume and cover letter and then follow-up with a portfolio upon request.

somebody please explain to me why listing the names of my critics is pretentious or else i'm going to make a big mistake by sending my resume out the door in 8 hours with it on it.

isn't it the same as listing which firms you worked for - so they know under whose direction you have learned?

thanks!

Nicolas, good question. I usually don't put critics on mine but I can't really think of a good reason why you would have to leave them off.

There's nothing inherently wrong - or right - about listing your studio critic by name. Just keep in mind that those famous names won't trump your portfolio ... if you have a highly acclaimed studio critic and the work in your portfolio is crap, your work's still crap.

stick those names in your portfolio, not on your resume. it IS very pretentious to list them on your resume (and looks like you're compensating for a lack of something, like experience). ;-)

just cause you had joe blow starchitect as a studio professor doesn't make you productive or employable. if you worked for them, that is different (and it shows how well you can brown nose).

professors and course work belongs in the portfolio, period.

thanks guys for the input. three follow-up questions:

-if putting the names of your critics as a bullet point under the name of your school in the education section of the resume is totally verboten, what do I put there, if I haven't won a litany of impressive-sounding awards? i can list my GPA...an award or two... but that's all i got. any suggestions?

-should i include a section (at the bottom, not under education heading) that details some of my skills, like i'm good at model building, i'm good at these software programs, i speak these languages?

-right now i'm looking for summer internships in LA. in the future though i might be trying for some teaching assistantships. would the procedure then be different? would i actually want to mention my professors for that specific resume?

thanks!

i guess i could just not include so much text and instead increase the font size or the white space

Nicholas: I read probably 20-30 resumes each week ... after a while, you start to understand intuitively what's real and what's fluff ... what I want to know is where you've been and what you've done ... don't just write stuff to fill up space ... I don't expect the same level of detail from somebody just entering the profession as someone who's been at it for 10 years ... it's a lot more meaningful to me if you just organize the material clearly, give me the basic facts that I need to know, arrange the information in an attractive way, and let me know how to get more information (like a website or digital portfolio or references ) if I want to learn more.

good luck.

thaaanks qz