As a companion to my other thread about "job boards" ... does anybody here have any experience working with a headhunter to locate that "perfect job" ?
is absolutely correct -- in my experience, like all commission-based economic relationships, recruiters tend to be more interested in completing the transaction than ensuring a good fit -- finding the right job is pretty much a "do it yourself" endeavor
I would say that the architecture profession is not well suited for working with recruiters. It's an odd market. Principals are usually too much of control freaks to let an outside recruiter place an employee within their firm, even if the principals have developed a well crafted job description. For architecture, so much of the interview process is based on portfolio and subjective determination by the principals (or whoever's conducting the interview) if the candidate is "the right fit". Also, architecture firms are notoriously cheap and unwilling to pay the commission (usually a percentage of the salary for the position in question).
There are a couple architecture firms that do use staffing companies/recruiters. In my experience, they are not the types of firms that archinect-ers would be interested in working with.
My wife is a recruiter (HR, accounting, etc.) and I can tell you that her job is no picnic, nor the money/bonuses that great. Her office is a total boiler room of activity and stress, she rarely is able to take a full lunch break, and has to wear a suit to work everyday... And she goes to night school three times a week for her MBA. She's a trooper.
i was sort of recruited a year or so ago. strange experience and, no, i didn't end up getting a job out of it. seems the job description was so specific that not only was i not a fit, i keep hearing about this position and it's still unfilled. a firm was looking for someone to build their architecture dept - so far so good.
but they wanted someone with a specialization in judicial/courthouse work. there may be such a person in a larger city - i don't know how much judicial work there is - but around here the legislature doesn't give all that much money for capital projects for courthouses. it's like a once a decade kind of thing. so anyone with a specialty in judicial work in ky has likely been starving until last year when, yes, a lot of funding for these projects came through the legislature.
the recruiter is looking for someone already in ky because they want someone to build the arch dept from their network of ky contacts - but also a judicial specialist. i told them that judicial work wasn't that exotic from my experience and that anyone with experience in that size institutional work with maybe a little background in security issues could do it. they didn't buy it.
so, unsuccessful recruiter experience, but also not the same as the shoehorn scenario above.
we had this doofus recruiter call into our firm last week - he figured out our direct dial system and simply started calling every number, looking for people to add to his resume file - aside from pissing everybody off, he managed to call the managing principal - bet that was an interesting conversation.
i don't have very fond feelings about recruiters - they tend to be whores, concerned only with making the deal happen - I know several recruiters who have placed specific individuals in our communities into 3-4 different jobs over 4-5 years - what does that tell you ?
I know another recruiter who constantly tells candidates she can get them 20-25% more in pay than they're making now - she does place some candidates, but these same candidates tend to be the first to get laid off when work volume drops off - they're just too far about the prevailing wage scale
I've let recruiters find interviewers for me several times and have taken one job that I found through a recruiter.
Pros:
It's usually in the recruiter's best interest to get you the highest salary possible. Their commissions are usually based partly on the position's salary.
They have lots of experience with negotiation and they don't give up easily. I told the recruiter that I wouldn't take the job unless they offered twice as much vacation. The recruiter said they wouldn't do that because the vacation policy was the same for everyone throughout the company. But then he called me back the next day and said he'd talked them into it. I'm not sure I could have done that on my own.
They often represent companies outside of the field of architecture that are looking for staff architects. That type of position can be difficult to find on your own - they're rarely advertised - but they often pay considerably better than traditional architecture firms.
They can be a very quick way to find a job in a new city. This is especially true if you are attempting to find a job long-distance without visiting the new city at all until you're hired - because some firms trust some recruiters to do their "screening" for them (not that I'd recommend accepting a job without ever visiting the firm - but if it's unavoidable....)
Cons:
As has been said, they're usually anxious to place you somewhere - anywhere - as quickly as possible. For them it's a better deal to put you someplace for a year and then help you find another job when you decide you don't like it there - because that's two commissions earned on you!
They rarely represent small firms - because small firms can't usually afford to pay commissions. When they do represent small firms it's often because those firms are very desperate - for instance currently in over their heads on some huge project that needs immediate staffing.
They don't always register - or care about - the type of position you're actually seeking. I had recruiters see "AutoCAD" somewhere on my resume and set up interviews for me without asking at gear factories and millwork companies - and then get exasperated and attitudy when I'd say that I am an architect and not looking for a CAD drafter job.
After 20 years at a small firm, I started at a medium-sized, well known firm about a year ago. Not a month goes by that I don't get a cold call from one recruiter or another. A couple of them manage to sound professional, at least, but one guy sounds like he's hawking electronics on a street corner. "How ya doin' today...?"
pros- I got exposed to a firm that was under my radar and that i wouldn't have found on my own. So far it has been a good fit. Once they identified the match, the process was fairly quick and effortless on my part (the interview got set up while I was on vacation for a few days after i got back).
cons- I wonder if I could have gotten a higher salary if the office didn't have to pay to commission to the headhunter.
still, it was a positive experience that shortened my unemployment. I occasionally run into scott at AIA events - nice chap...
in future job searches, I'll be turning to recruiters about 1 month or so into the effort once I've exhausted my initial round of networking/responding to job postings. There seem to be regional variations in how architectonic and design savvy the recruiters are. Some places have better search firm/architecture firm relations and are worthwhile, other places don't have a clue (ie NYC...) and it is all about who you know.
agfa et al, you have to be extra vigilant when working with recruiters to pursue your own career goals and interests and not let them hijack your resume for the quick $$. If all you want is a quick job, then who cares... but for long term success, you gotta do what is right for you and don't let yourself get pressured into any situations.
And all Architects are self centered arrogant jerks right??? Of course not, but I know quite a few that are so let's not generalize folks. Recruiters span the range just like any other group of professionals and there are good ones out there too. You can tell fairly short order what their value set is. In it for the money??? Hmmmm....Do you build projects for clients out of the goodness of your heart??? Usually there are reasons that a good recruiter can't find you a job. Job time is a biggie.....if you're jumping jobs every two years you're not a good prospect and if your skill set doesn't match then it's not a fit either. Remember...Firms pay recruiters a pile of money to find them a top notch Architect, not someone they can find themselves. 1 job every 2 years won't exempt you from a job but a firm is sure not gonna pay thousands of $$$ for it....shouldn't use a recruiter if that's you. If you have, for instance, been at your current position for say....5 or more years or have a good history of the like and are within reason salarywise and can demonstrate your abilities both verbally and with your portfolio....Then a recruiter can market you and increase your chances of advancement. Treekiller was on track....work your own search first but don't disregard recruiter calls and for the record...no, you wouldn't get more if not for the commission. If your contemporary is making x amount with the same skill set....that's where you'll be as well regardless of the commission....to do anything other breeds trouble within the firm. Talk at length to the recruiter...go with the one that you feel good about working with.....they can be valuable allies on occasion even though they do work for the client firm. Ultimately, a good one will go to bat for you and the money will take a back seat. There are some out there.....I know one or two of them as well. ;-)
Sep 4, 08 3:43 pm ·
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Recruiters ... are they a good way to find a new job ?
As a companion to my other thread about "job boards" ... does anybody here have any experience working with a headhunter to locate that "perfect job" ?
one told me they found me the perfect job. at bob stern's office.
is absolutely correct -- in my experience, like all commission-based economic relationships, recruiters tend to be more interested in completing the transaction than ensuring a good fit -- finding the right job is pretty much a "do it yourself" endeavor
good luck !
I would say that the architecture profession is not well suited for working with recruiters. It's an odd market. Principals are usually too much of control freaks to let an outside recruiter place an employee within their firm, even if the principals have developed a well crafted job description. For architecture, so much of the interview process is based on portfolio and subjective determination by the principals (or whoever's conducting the interview) if the candidate is "the right fit". Also, architecture firms are notoriously cheap and unwilling to pay the commission (usually a percentage of the salary for the position in question).
There are a couple architecture firms that do use staffing companies/recruiters. In my experience, they are not the types of firms that archinect-ers would be interested in working with.
My wife is a recruiter (HR, accounting, etc.) and I can tell you that her job is no picnic, nor the money/bonuses that great. Her office is a total boiler room of activity and stress, she rarely is able to take a full lunch break, and has to wear a suit to work everyday... And she goes to night school three times a week for her MBA. She's a trooper.
i was sort of recruited a year or so ago. strange experience and, no, i didn't end up getting a job out of it. seems the job description was so specific that not only was i not a fit, i keep hearing about this position and it's still unfilled. a firm was looking for someone to build their architecture dept - so far so good.
but they wanted someone with a specialization in judicial/courthouse work. there may be such a person in a larger city - i don't know how much judicial work there is - but around here the legislature doesn't give all that much money for capital projects for courthouses. it's like a once a decade kind of thing. so anyone with a specialty in judicial work in ky has likely been starving until last year when, yes, a lot of funding for these projects came through the legislature.
the recruiter is looking for someone already in ky because they want someone to build the arch dept from their network of ky contacts - but also a judicial specialist. i told them that judicial work wasn't that exotic from my experience and that anyone with experience in that size institutional work with maybe a little background in security issues could do it. they didn't buy it.
so, unsuccessful recruiter experience, but also not the same as the shoehorn scenario above.
we had this doofus recruiter call into our firm last week - he figured out our direct dial system and simply started calling every number, looking for people to add to his resume file - aside from pissing everybody off, he managed to call the managing principal - bet that was an interesting conversation.
i don't have very fond feelings about recruiters - they tend to be whores, concerned only with making the deal happen - I know several recruiters who have placed specific individuals in our communities into 3-4 different jobs over 4-5 years - what does that tell you ?
I know another recruiter who constantly tells candidates she can get them 20-25% more in pay than they're making now - she does place some candidates, but these same candidates tend to be the first to get laid off when work volume drops off - they're just too far about the prevailing wage scale
I've let recruiters find interviewers for me several times and have taken one job that I found through a recruiter.
Pros:
It's usually in the recruiter's best interest to get you the highest salary possible. Their commissions are usually based partly on the position's salary.
They have lots of experience with negotiation and they don't give up easily. I told the recruiter that I wouldn't take the job unless they offered twice as much vacation. The recruiter said they wouldn't do that because the vacation policy was the same for everyone throughout the company. But then he called me back the next day and said he'd talked them into it. I'm not sure I could have done that on my own.
They often represent companies outside of the field of architecture that are looking for staff architects. That type of position can be difficult to find on your own - they're rarely advertised - but they often pay considerably better than traditional architecture firms.
They can be a very quick way to find a job in a new city. This is especially true if you are attempting to find a job long-distance without visiting the new city at all until you're hired - because some firms trust some recruiters to do their "screening" for them (not that I'd recommend accepting a job without ever visiting the firm - but if it's unavoidable....)
Cons:
As has been said, they're usually anxious to place you somewhere - anywhere - as quickly as possible. For them it's a better deal to put you someplace for a year and then help you find another job when you decide you don't like it there - because that's two commissions earned on you!
They rarely represent small firms - because small firms can't usually afford to pay commissions. When they do represent small firms it's often because those firms are very desperate - for instance currently in over their heads on some huge project that needs immediate staffing.
They don't always register - or care about - the type of position you're actually seeking. I had recruiters see "AutoCAD" somewhere on my resume and set up interviews for me without asking at gear factories and millwork companies - and then get exasperated and attitudy when I'd say that I am an architect and not looking for a CAD drafter job.
thanks everybody ... I appreciate your perspective ... I don't think getting involved with a head-hunter would be a good thing for me.
had one offer me $500 to take the job, $500 after I started.......
called me back a day later asking not to mention it to his "client"
well - that's just so wrong, at so many levels - as written above several times, recruiters are just unethical whores
i would say so
but only for mainstream corporate jobs
to find something more unique hit the streets
This has been enlightening.
After 20 years at a small firm, I started at a medium-sized, well known firm about a year ago. Not a month goes by that I don't get a cold call from one recruiter or another. A couple of them manage to sound professional, at least, but one guy sounds like he's hawking electronics on a street corner. "How ya doin' today...?"
Yikes.
I got my current job through a headhunter.
pros- I got exposed to a firm that was under my radar and that i wouldn't have found on my own. So far it has been a good fit. Once they identified the match, the process was fairly quick and effortless on my part (the interview got set up while I was on vacation for a few days after i got back).
cons- I wonder if I could have gotten a higher salary if the office didn't have to pay to commission to the headhunter.
still, it was a positive experience that shortened my unemployment. I occasionally run into scott at AIA events - nice chap...
in future job searches, I'll be turning to recruiters about 1 month or so into the effort once I've exhausted my initial round of networking/responding to job postings. There seem to be regional variations in how architectonic and design savvy the recruiters are. Some places have better search firm/architecture firm relations and are worthwhile, other places don't have a clue (ie NYC...) and it is all about who you know.
my only experience of recruiters is, as noted above, they are invested in getting you into a position, regardless of whether it is right for you.
agfa et al, you have to be extra vigilant when working with recruiters to pursue your own career goals and interests and not let them hijack your resume for the quick $$. If all you want is a quick job, then who cares... but for long term success, you gotta do what is right for you and don't let yourself get pressured into any situations.
And all Architects are self centered arrogant jerks right??? Of course not, but I know quite a few that are so let's not generalize folks. Recruiters span the range just like any other group of professionals and there are good ones out there too. You can tell fairly short order what their value set is. In it for the money??? Hmmmm....Do you build projects for clients out of the goodness of your heart??? Usually there are reasons that a good recruiter can't find you a job. Job time is a biggie.....if you're jumping jobs every two years you're not a good prospect and if your skill set doesn't match then it's not a fit either. Remember...Firms pay recruiters a pile of money to find them a top notch Architect, not someone they can find themselves. 1 job every 2 years won't exempt you from a job but a firm is sure not gonna pay thousands of $$$ for it....shouldn't use a recruiter if that's you. If you have, for instance, been at your current position for say....5 or more years or have a good history of the like and are within reason salarywise and can demonstrate your abilities both verbally and with your portfolio....Then a recruiter can market you and increase your chances of advancement. Treekiller was on track....work your own search first but don't disregard recruiter calls and for the record...no, you wouldn't get more if not for the commission. If your contemporary is making x amount with the same skill set....that's where you'll be as well regardless of the commission....to do anything other breeds trouble within the firm. Talk at length to the recruiter...go with the one that you feel good about working with.....they can be valuable allies on occasion even though they do work for the client firm. Ultimately, a good one will go to bat for you and the money will take a back seat. There are some out there.....I know one or two of them as well. ;-)
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