In college I won the same scholarship that Eero Saarinen won as a student. Does that make me qualified to google the St. Louis arch too, or are former acquaintances of former employees of fathers of the designer uniquely qualified for that?
OP: it doesn't matter what software you use. What software is available to you? Use that. A simple parametric roof is a 5-minute project. What are the other parameters of this assignment?
Some roofs are parabolic, and some roofs are inverse catenaries. Same with bridges. A parametric roof could be parabolic or catenary or some combination of both. So could a parametric bridge. So could a parametric garbage can, parametric cat, or parametric can opener, but they might not be ergononomic.
As for the St Louis arch: Wikipedia is a dangerous trove of half-truths (at best). The arch is not a true catenary, regardless of what is posted on Wikipedia. Saarinen did state that it was designed as a catenary, and even provided an equation on which he stated it was based - but the arch that would be generated by that equation would be much taller. That original curve was reduced in the vertical dimension - i.e. "scaled" in the Z axis only - and so is not a catenary curve. History of World Architecture 101.
May 18, 16 9:35 pm ·
·
Yes but technically a flatten catenary or weighted catenary but even a catenary arch and a parabolic arch are different curves.
Nobody in this thread has said or implied that a parabolic arch is the same as a catenary arch, so that is a nuance you wouldn't be debating whether or not you were interested, as there is nobody with whom to debate.
I believe 58 is correct about the St Louis arch. That factoid is even in my kid's high school calculus book with a diagram of a true inverse catenary from saaranen's equation overlaid on a drawing of the arch. The arch is about a third shorter (I wouldn't call that a small nuance) and its base flares out against the curve a little. As for Wikipedia, the peers there are mostly halfwits so half-truths are about the best you can expect.
May 19, 16 12:25 am ·
·
Threesleeve,
What is a weighted catenary?
You do realize that a pure catenary if for an arch of uniform thickness. Didn't you ever notice the St. Louis Arch is wider at the base of the legs and gets thinner in thickness as it reaches the apex of the arch. If you calculated a weighted 'chain' with a weight distribution similar to this arch, would it not be about the same curve. How would a chain like that rest?
Catenary comes in a few flavors of equations based on mass distribution. If the mass is uniformally distributed the true classic catenary equation is perfectly dead on.
Anyway, we know either way that catenary and parabolic arches are different kinds of arches, right? If so... fine. We're done discussing this. We agree. I said it is a catenary arch. I didn't get specific to kind of catenary. Weighted or flatten catenary implies the mass is not evenly/uniformally distributed (hence a uniform thickness).
Eero Saarinen must have worked through that nuance of catenary equations to fit his design strategy. If you want the most definitive answer, go interview Eero Saarinen for yourself.
May 19, 16 1:03 am ·
·
If we want to get technical, the gateway arch is an inverted weighted or flatten catenary arch. Enough said.
Are you interested in discussing something more interesting than debating whether or not the gateway arch is a type of catenary arch?
richard wc bot-kins...put down the internet. i repeat, put down the internet. nobody wants to get hurt. please go to the public library and open up a book.
has anyone been in the arch? i have...definitely not the structure i'd pick to live in. little too much swinging in the breeze going on up there. peace!
Here we are actually talking about architecture for a change Richard, why are you so bored with this topic? It is one I find interesting. I'm not a fan of the interior experience of the arch though - rickety ride to the top and then a claustrophobic airplane cabin type of space.
So what are you so anxious to turn discussion toward Richard? There's only so much any of us can take of Astoria.
3sleeve, yes, rickety ass tin can ride to the top followed by vertigo. at least the wainwright is nearby to gawk at. sullivan would be a "parametric" all star if alive today.
ricky b, get your ass on a plane or in a car and go there. you ain't do nothing else.
May 19, 16 2:05 am ·
·
Threesleeve,
Alright, discussion of architecture is fine but abrasive argument over a little minor point like catenary / weighted catenary / parabolic / etc. is not so okay because it is a circular argument back and forth and I'm bored of arguing over and over something we probably actually agree on and in a silly and stupid way, arguing about it. That's all.
I just want the discussion to move forward beyond argument but if so, lets evolve this. In what way do you find interesting (as a way or opportunity to segue the discussion to a more rewarding end).
Does that "arch" not mirror itself perfectly underground? How else would it stand up due to the weight of all the fat tourists ridding the elevator to the top? I think this arch is nothin more than a bottomless (gigiti) oval.
Does that "arch" not mirror itself perfectly underground? How else would it stand up due to the weight of all the fat tourists ridding the elevator to the top? I think this arch is nothin more than a bottomless (gigiti) oval.
I visited the arch with my boyfriend when I was 21. As it goes he did something stupid and he got arrested there, oops (bad story). The silver lining was that because it was federal land they could process the arrest right there and I didn't have to go bail him out, just had to wait. Good to know. We still got to go up in the arch but yeah, it sucked, and he dumped me a week later. Good.
The arch is exactly as tall as it is wide. Good for it.
May 19, 16 12:22 pm ·
·
is is really a circular argument? couldn't it also be ovalular? maybe even a toroidial polyhedron?
The elevators in the arch and the Luxor in Vegas share the same bumpy rides. However, the patinas in the cabs have slightly different chemical compositions.
The twist to the Luxor elevators is that the doors are on the side. So you expect them to lurch in one direction, but it's an unexpected one. This case make for an interesting ride with people been over served, but that rarely happens there.
Is it just me or has the format/layout/sizing of the Features section changed recently? Seems like everything (images, white space etc is bigger). Or maybe I just changed something local on my machine without realizing...
I'm involved with two different projects right now in which parties are looking for pricing on things so they can decide whether the project is affordable/fundable. I can't seem to get these parties to understand that you can't price a design until you have a design. But no one wants to proceed linearly and commission a designer, identify a scope, design a schematic, then get it priced.
Lordy I'm frustrated. How does one educate people on this topic? I've exhausted all my ideas.
Good morning, Nam and everyone. Donna, I have a skill from my other job called motivational interviewing. It is a communication tool to resolve ambivalence. I can say more later, but maybe google it for now. Or yeah, $/s.f.
$/sf was one option I already presented. I also looked into getting an RS Means subscription. But no, we need actual quotes from vendors. On...nothing but me waving my hands. It's so inexact.
Thread Central
In college I won the same scholarship that Eero Saarinen won as a student. Does that make me qualified to google the St. Louis arch too, or are former acquaintances of former employees of fathers of the designer uniquely qualified for that?
OP: it doesn't matter what software you use. What software is available to you? Use that. A simple parametric roof is a 5-minute project. What are the other parameters of this assignment?
5839,
What are you making noise about?
Some roofs are parabolic, and some roofs are inverse catenaries. Same with bridges. A parametric roof could be parabolic or catenary or some combination of both. So could a parametric bridge. So could a parametric garbage can, parametric cat, or parametric can opener, but they might not be ergononomic.
As for the St Louis arch: Wikipedia is a dangerous trove of half-truths (at best). The arch is not a true catenary, regardless of what is posted on Wikipedia. Saarinen did state that it was designed as a catenary, and even provided an equation on which he stated it was based - but the arch that would be generated by that equation would be much taller. That original curve was reduced in the vertical dimension - i.e. "scaled" in the Z axis only - and so is not a catenary curve. History of World Architecture 101.
Yes but technically a flatten catenary or weighted catenary but even a catenary arch and a parabolic arch are different curves.
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/65729.html
Here can show there is a difference because the equation structure is different between a catenary curve and a parabolic curve.
https://tube.geogebra.org/student/m5486
https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-differentiate-between-a-parabola-a-hyperbola-and-a-catenary-curve
http://whistleralley.com/hanging/hanging.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted_catenary
While Wikipedia maybe known for half truths but even wikipedia is peer reviewed and assessed by people even mathematicians.
Anyway, I'm not interest in debating these little nuance to death. There are better things to discuss.
Nobody in this thread has said or implied that a parabolic arch is the same as a catenary arch, so that is a nuance you wouldn't be debating whether or not you were interested, as there is nobody with whom to debate.
I believe 58 is correct about the St Louis arch. That factoid is even in my kid's high school calculus book with a diagram of a true inverse catenary from saaranen's equation overlaid on a drawing of the arch. The arch is about a third shorter (I wouldn't call that a small nuance) and its base flares out against the curve a little. As for Wikipedia, the peers there are mostly halfwits so half-truths are about the best you can expect.
Threesleeve,
What is a weighted catenary?
You do realize that a pure catenary if for an arch of uniform thickness. Didn't you ever notice the St. Louis Arch is wider at the base of the legs and gets thinner in thickness as it reaches the apex of the arch. If you calculated a weighted 'chain' with a weight distribution similar to this arch, would it not be about the same curve. How would a chain like that rest?
Catenary comes in a few flavors of equations based on mass distribution. If the mass is uniformally distributed the true classic catenary equation is perfectly dead on.
Anyway, we know either way that catenary and parabolic arches are different kinds of arches, right? If so... fine. We're done discussing this. We agree. I said it is a catenary arch. I didn't get specific to kind of catenary. Weighted or flatten catenary implies the mass is not evenly/uniformally distributed (hence a uniform thickness).
Eero Saarinen must have worked through that nuance of catenary equations to fit his design strategy. If you want the most definitive answer, go interview Eero Saarinen for yourself.
If we want to get technical, the gateway arch is an inverted weighted or flatten catenary arch. Enough said.
Are you interested in discussing something more interesting than debating whether or not the gateway arch is a type of catenary arch?
richard wc bot-kins...put down the internet. i repeat, put down the internet. nobody wants to get hurt. please go to the public library and open up a book.
has anyone been in the arch? i have...definitely not the structure i'd pick to live in. little too much swinging in the breeze going on up there. peace!
No_form,
I'd sure love to visit the arch some time.
Here we are actually talking about architecture for a change Richard, why are you so bored with this topic? It is one I find interesting. I'm not a fan of the interior experience of the arch though - rickety ride to the top and then a claustrophobic airplane cabin type of space.
So what are you so anxious to turn discussion toward Richard? There's only so much any of us can take of Astoria.
3sleeve, yes, rickety ass tin can ride to the top followed by vertigo. at least the wainwright is nearby to gawk at. sullivan would be a "parametric" all star if alive today.
Go interview Eero Saarinen.
Uh... right Rick. You do realize he wasn't even alive when the arch was built. I will summon him in a seance and see if it met his design intent.
ricky b, get your ass on a plane or in a car and go there. you ain't do nothing else.
Threesleeve,
Alright, discussion of architecture is fine but abrasive argument over a little minor point like catenary / weighted catenary / parabolic / etc. is not so okay because it is a circular argument back and forth and I'm bored of arguing over and over something we probably actually agree on and in a silly and stupid way, arguing about it. That's all.
I just want the discussion to move forward beyond argument but if so, lets evolve this. In what way do you find interesting (as a way or opportunity to segue the discussion to a more rewarding end).
fuck this shit, i am going to work.
is is really a circular argument? couldn't it also be ovalular? maybe even a toroidial polyhedron?
I have been inside the arch. Pretty cramped at the top as I remember...
I've been meaning to visit STL to go see it. Isn't there a crazy slant-y elevator that goes up it?
I love the patina of the arch... reminds me of dealing with clients at the design-build studio.
"Why is my planter/canopy/facade/staircase rusting?"
"It's stainless, not stainfree!"
illuminati secrets in the time capsule in arch. eero was a oss agent? no?
I visited the arch with my boyfriend when I was 21. As it goes he did something stupid and he got arrested there, oops (bad story). The silver lining was that because it was federal land they could process the arrest right there and I didn't have to go bail him out, just had to wait. Good to know. We still got to go up in the arch but yeah, it sucked, and he dumped me a week later. Good.
The arch is exactly as tall as it is wide. Good for it.
is is really a circular argument? couldn't it also be ovalular? maybe even a toroidial polyhedron?
Shuellmi,
You're right. It could be.
@arch, that is correct.
The elevators in the arch and the Luxor in Vegas share the same bumpy rides. However, the patinas in the cabs have slightly different chemical compositions.
you can probably scrape the patina off the luxor elevator and snort it for a good time. I imagine the one in the arch would just smell really bad.
I road the inclined arch elevator....not a great experience. I didn't do it in the Luxor Elevator...I promise.
Going off of memory here... but I believe the Luxor cars are by Otis. Cool thing about the arch is Saarinnen designed the elevator system. You sit in these little egg shaped pods. Pretty cool in an archinerd kinda way. http://www.interestingamerica.com/images/MO_images/St_Louis/Gateway_Arch/Diagram_Gateway_Arch_Transportation_System_426.png
And a nightmare if you're claustrophobic...
The twist to the Luxor elevators is that the doors are on the side. So you expect them to lurch in one direction, but it's an unexpected one. This case make for an interesting ride with people been over served, but that rarely happens there.
Balkins, this is why proofreading and subject verb agreement are important.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/19/478720206/how-the-wrong-verb-meant-the-texas-gop-called-most-texans-gay?
Longed shot but has anyone worked for brooksfield multiplex? I've got an interview with them but glassdoor reviews are horrible.
One more note to my Denver peeps. Only been here two years and it has been tough figuring out this market. Saw an article today that sheds a bit of light on the situation including the fact that 100,000 people moved here last year. Blows my mind! http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_29915780/more-people-than-places-census-says-colorado-population
wurdan, I read the article. You should (we should?) develop the lot across the street from my house.
Hi,
easiest way to manufacture curved beam?
and most suitable material?
glu-lam or rolled steel.
@gruen see this thread for more info.
Also did you find the information you needed re: Weed? I added a post there, ICYMI...
What kind of curve (plan or elevation)?
Reinforced concrete is the easiest since it starts as a non-solid and easy to bend rebar.
Is it just me or has the format/layout/sizing of the Features section changed recently? Seems like everything (images, white space etc is bigger). Or maybe I just changed something local on my machine without realizing...
<procedural rant>
I'm involved with two different projects right now in which parties are looking for pricing on things so they can decide whether the project is affordable/fundable. I can't seem to get these parties to understand that you can't price a design until you have a design. But no one wants to proceed linearly and commission a designer, identify a scope, design a schematic, then get it priced.
Lordy I'm frustrated. How does one educate people on this topic? I've exhausted all my ideas.
Donna, $/sq ft. But you still need a program and scope to get that far.
seems like they will eventually figure it out when nothing happens?
Good morning TC!
Good morning, Nam and everyone. Donna, I have a skill from my other job called motivational interviewing. It is a communication tool to resolve ambivalence. I can say more later, but maybe google it for now. Or yeah, $/s.f.
$/sf was one option I already presented. I also looked into getting an RS Means subscription. But no, we need actual quotes from vendors. On...nothing but me waving my hands. It's so inexact.
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