I think that it was very insensitive to publish those cartoons. One has to respect other people's religions, even if criticizing. I believe that we should have the freedom to criticize, scrutinize, and debate religions, and everyhting associated with them.

But... Those cartoons where just offensive, why couldnt they protray the leader of hamas or a well known extrimist cleric? They did not need to go to the God or the Prophet to make their point.

And Orhan, although I agree with your outrage there are plenty of cartoons, adn balshemous images of Jesus, Jehova, Moses etc... out there in popular culture, I think the main point is that although the religions are not happy about it, it is not (usually) against chrisitanity to show images of Jesus, it is against Islam to depict Allah and Mohammed. That to me is the big point, you can be critical without disrespecting.

Oh, and dont forgetthe controversy about this "virgin"

actually i am not outraged but saddened, for this sort of thing is truly opening the gap between people and further contributing to racism and hatred.
the reason for islam banning any human or animal figures is not to create any icons or object worship. and i find the non figurative art of islam very advanced.
there has to be a better level of criticizing and discussing this sensetive subjects.
the whole thing is getting out of hand in europe with subway bombings, street riots and such. i wonder what would become of that part of the world if there are wider spread economic crises and unemployment.

How about the head of the muslim council of britain recently refering to homosexuality a an abomination and a disgrace that goes against the order of things and arguing for his right for freedom of speech to so? Talk about disrespect. How i wish that in the name of freedom of speech he'd stepped in to defend Salman Rushdie 15 years ago when Khomeini sentenced him to death. What a hypocritical biggot. Press is free in secular and democratic societies and that's an inalienable right, no matter how tastless and provocative these cartoons might be. I fully understand that they might offend some but using them to compare the conditions of muslims in Europe to the one of jews 70 years ago is simply obscene. Religion in all its form is the source of all evils, questioning its so called achievements and criticizing it is only one of the healthy aspects of true democracy.

not 'obscene', but alarming..

i have not seen these cartoons nor do i want to see them. just as i would not want to see a crucifix in a jar of urine nor a buddha with shit all over him.

however -- freedom of speech means freedom to say things that others might find offensive. really offensive, even blasphemous. one must learn to turn the other cheek (sorry to use a christian idiom) to affronts to one's core beliefs. if one has strong beliefs they will at some point be the target of derision and offense.

now: are the muslims europe's new jews? i won't really answer that except to say that 6 million muslims have not been slaughtered in concentration camps yet.

there is a powerfully clear line between speech and action. and in secular, cynical europe i somehow doubt that muslims will become the target of a new "final solution." the tastelessness of the original printing of the cartoons is self-evident. but in a truly free society there are no, pardon the phrase, sacred cows. it's something we in the US have had to deal with for 230 years. and mind you, we have not done a particularly good job yet.

obscene actually.
Granted: muslim populations are being persecuted all over the world, there's no denying that. However the persecution of Jews in fascist Europe 70 years ago culminating in the organized mass deportation and extermination of 6 million people ago should make you think very hard before comparing their fate to the one of Muslim people in contemporary european democratic societies.

ochona my post is a bit of a repeat of yours, your typing is faster than mine...

yeah.
just fast forward a little from 70 years.

Obscene:
welcome to bosnia. how about some multiple thousands of victims? we're all human beings repeating the same mistakes over and over when hungry, armed, hating and misled.

and its always over religion, what does that tell you?

ok, a fast forward it is then: 5 years ago the taliban went to great lengths to blow up giant statues of buddha in Afghanistan. I dont really remember buddhists burning afghan flags as a result of it, their philosophy on life might be an example for all of us to follow after all.

fuck taliban too. they've had their chances and blew it with corruption, power mongering and bin laden sell out, plus gringo cut the aid.

doberman, i am not convinced that 'contemporary european democratic societies' are too much of a 'nirvana of civility' material.
and, you keep bringing up samples of few extremists to address 1.5 billion muslims in every country of the world and justify desrespect because we are democratic and better off?

this is a good example of when people should state their opinions and leave it. After the first magazine apologized another (French magazine, I believe) published them, then the Eqyptian owner of the mag fired the editor (who did not apologize and stood by his decision), and apologized.

Sure enough, Italy and many other nations and newspapers picked up the story and supported the freedom of press and published all the cartoons. So now what was a small issue was turned into an international issue.

I could have the details a little off, but that's more or less what happened.

freedom of the press and provocation.

editorial cartoonists ought to be allowed just as much freedom as artists...it's subjective impression.

i must admit that i don't have a lot of respect for religious people of all kinds who try to impose their views of society on non-beliving sinners like me. What is wrong to me might be right to you and vice and versa, we both have to accept that and live together, that's the principle underpinning a free, democratic society. Personnaly i don't have a problem with that, your beliefs might be different from mine, i'm cool with it. I thought religion taught people about tolerance anyway, if that's the case then surely you can take a joke, even if it's a bit distasteful. After centuries of christian ruling, european societies managed to break free from the the daily oppression of Jesus freaks of all kinds who told them how they should behave and live and that's the kind of freedom i personnaly value quite a lot. So pardon me if i tend to get a bit angry when i hear that it is supposedly wrong to represent the prophet even though believers are forbidden to do so by the Coran. For the non-believing ones of us it is perfectly acceptable and an absolute right to do so, so you'll just have to accept that and live with it i'm afraid. And in turn, you are entitled to criticize the way i live as long as you don't interfere with my freedom to go on with my life the way i chose. Have a nice day.

many of you may get something from thisarticle on religion, ethics and the popes new cyclical.

i totally get the trod upon feeling orhan. i am regularly refused service for being white in japan (hailing a cab is a 50:50 proposition lately) and have even been assaulted and yelled at (more than once ) for being white. racism is everywhere, even a place as peaceful as japan; and i think we might all be a bit more tolerant if we tried living as the minority or underpowered for awhile...


i tend to think the europeans are more scared of foreigners in general than muslims specifically. unfortunately islam is just easy to see and an easy target, especially now. it sucks. truly. but i don't understand this response.

i mean it WAS a mistake and quickly appologised for wasn't it? and as far as i know it was a publisher not a COUNTRY that did the deed, so why the burning of a national flag?

orhan..what do u mean by "fuck taliban too. they've had their chances and blew it with corruption, power mongering and bin laden sell out, plus gringo cut the aid."

do u mean to say that,had there been no corruption ,power mongering or bin laden sell out ....the regime of the taliban were justified ?

Im sorry I dont get it

Hi
The newspaper that brought these, do not speak on any other behave than themself, most danes have a relaxed relationship with muslims, but a newspaper that is known as an ultra right wing newspaper ,a newspaper that know it proberly don't exist in 10 years , they uses all means to "speak on the behave" of any racist any offensive rightwing political party, ---- what you must not forget, is how the same newspaper before again and again have picked on some weak group ; the handicaped ,people without work that from the oppinion of this newspaper shuld be put in work camps, theie campain against gay priests aso. aso. A newspaper that from the oppinion of most danes are best for wiping your buttom.

1915-

thousands if not more armenians (of christian faith) were slaughtered by ottoman turks who happen to be muslim.

no one is free from guilt, relegion as a whole is most likely responsible for the most deaths in history.
respecting a culture is essential, but its hard when said culture believes you to be the enemy, ect.
so maybe its ink and paper agains bombs and guns.

also: notice the caption that says "charles manson is the messiah"

notice that there were no riots, no flag-burnings, no fatwas, no anything except a lot of angry letters to the editor. most christians in the US would be offended by this image. i am offended by this image.

but it's a matter of the supremacy of freedom of speech over the security from images which might offend me.

i had posted the image and then realized it would probably be better not to. but: the austin chronicle printed a cover last week that had the bible placed between a woman's thighs and the headline was "the new texas family planning".

there was also a caption that says "charles manson is the messiah"

notice that there were no riots, no flag-burnings, no fatwas, no anything except a lot of angry letters to the editor. most christians in the US would be offended by this image. i am offended by this image.

but it's a matter of the supremacy of freedom of speech over the security from images which might offend me.

No it is an outdated danish ultra right wing newspaper trying to act "heroic" by sparking hate. --- And they did it before, they don't like handicapped people ,they don't like people on welfare, they don't like others than right wing paties and Clintons words describe it perfect ; these fanatics try speak "on behave of" danish people but their words seem like what the nazi said about the jews, - if you was just danish you would know this "newspaper". Beside they knew _exactly_ what reaction they would get, just like when the nazi turned on the fire.

and that's part of the point - to demonstrate how ridiculous reactions would be. Now I am not saying that it's tasteful or was a good choice, but you can obviously see how crazy people are getting.
I am not going to get into some rant about the downfall of humanity, but I cannot see anything but narrow minds and hatred from the world of religion, both here and abroad.

That may be an out spoken minority, but the majority needs to tame the extreme, or the rest of the naive world (myself included) will continue to associate religion with narrow minded hatred and lack of intelligence (again, here in the US, too).

interesting reactions..
mostly dodging the real issue of rising nationalism, racism and religious divide threatening europe today..
vindpust, sheds a light about the origins of this caricature of mohammad. yet the reprints on rest of the countries are truly reactionary and geared toward sensationalism and racism, which sells.
i've born into and raised in textbook secular ways if there is such a book. just in case if any body think if i am a religious zealot, i am a faithful person who doesn't really want a middle man in that area including mohammad and jesus and moses.

I wish my keyboard came with a SMITE button.

it's all about fear. people fear what they don't understand. people fear concepts that are different that what they've learned. people assume that if you look like them [whoever them might be], you must think like them and thus be one of them. in reality them is us. we are all different yet we are all the same. for me, i love the diversity that this world has to offer. concepts, races, religions, all of it.

i would rather live in a world that allows us all to speak freely than to live in one that silences us.

peace.

maurizio cattelan, 'La Nona Ora' (The Ninth Hour), 1999.

here are some reactions from the muslim press. not everybody is burning flags mind you..
zaman

orhan dude..geopolitiks ..various vested interests taking turns at trying to control the feelings of the christian and muslim worlds.

Religion arouses more people than orgasms.

dont bother so much abt it...its all abt money honey !

nevermore, you are a genious. thanks for helping me to understand terms like geopolitics and orgasmic process in holy places.
levelmore. what is so offending to you? your hate for muslims is well documented in your previous posts. i remember..

'don't bother so much'.. (?)

To me, it raises the same questions for the democratic system as the possibility of the existence of a nationalist/fascist party in such a system. I've always wandered why the Front National wasn't simply forbidden. Just to make things clear you know. But every time somebody express publically such an opinion, their defense is that every opinion, even the dumbest one, should have a right to express itself in a democracy.
I think it's a question of scale, mostly because the ideal reference of modern democracy is still the small scale, elitist ancient Greece democracy; you should not put someone in prison just because he said something hateful or stupid, but when it's a widely distributed newspaper or a political representative, there should be some sort of constraint.
Too bad our so called modern democracies always refer to an idealised past that's either written in stone (us), or supposedly shared by a whole nation through education (France)...

while i've said i am all for free speech, i do think this shows the ignorance of western media to publish these cartoons and not just once [back in october?] but for others to do it again some months later. i do not know much about the muslim faith, but i was told by a muslim friend of mine a while back that one who practices the religion MUST speak up and against anyone who creates a drawing, icon, symbol, etc of Muhammad. for them not to do so, is against their religion. i think this illustrates the ignorance of the media and the lack of sensitivity towards muslims. to do it once, a mistake. to do it a dozen times more [months later], ignorance.

correct me if i am wrong orhan.

here it is from a non practicing muslim (if there is such a thing);
as i stated in the beginning, i have not seen any degrading caricatures of either jesus or moses in the muslim country i grew up. mainly due to holiness of these prophets as they are talked about in quran.
these cartoons are there for a sinister reason. and they are offensive, regardless of the freedom of press argument they are hiding behind.
islam through out the centuries has not changed to adapt the developments. there are discussions in some places like turkey where there is a secular approach to islam that existed over 80 years, trying to put all contemporary backwardness of islam on the table. perhaps a reform type of movement, which has some support in the islamic world but flatly rejected and condemned by saudis and other so called constitutionally islamic states.
just in recent weeks, a group of women did their prayers on the same line with men (not permitted according to religious rules) and without covering their heads (also a no no), this caused a sizable havoc in public but a taboo was broken nevertheless.
inside of my head i am pleased that these taboos are being broken slowly and i hope they eventually take hold in islamic societies. i am even not against the caricature of mohammed in principal but i am out raged against beligerant racist courses this issue has taken and it is really a plot by neo fascist organizations in europe which are gaining a lot of steam in recent years. to me it is more like a calculated provokation by these groups as per corell (vindpust) mentioned above and french made a point related to it.
i am all for islamic reform and honest interpretation of quran. otherwise it is too easy for radical islam too interpret according to their agenda. peaceful islamic world must come together and make some decisions and alliances here.
anyway i don't want to stray too much from the subject trying to say too many things in a short posting.

probably if everyone took the 'modest' approach - not to many would ever be offended and incited. in the bible OT - shared by many religions - the concept on woman's dress & behaviour (just an example used because my father had a discussion in Egypt with a erudite individual on the subject of Quran vs. King James versions) is that is should be modest. its the same in each religion but the interpretation ranges from head to toe hefty trash bags (an ex diplomatic corps staffer comment) to how many inches of knee shows..........

I guess if modest approaches were adopted - particularly by the media in general, then we would not be killing each other over beliefs. But then the universal reality of change as the only constant would be subverted.

That reminds me of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal which many at the time took seriously.

on related side note 20/20's show was on lack of manners and politeness in today's world.

Putting politeness in perspective

yeah, I was thinking of posting these, too
really offensive images i think

instead i rented and watched again 'life of brian' for a jolly take on religion

peace

and, swastika, after eating the civilized and defensless 'maus', now faces vicious and barbaric and provoced 'rat'.
a match made in hell.

something aside, but close: psychoanalysis says, something can be loved and hatet at the same time. look at your parents, teachers, lovers: you love them, and sometimes you hate them. the same with gods, religions, prophets: if they don't help, if there does not come a better future, if people die because of natural desasters, if the "enemy" is growing stronger - how long can you go on and say, you still believe? in christianity, this is since the 18th century called the problem of the THEODIZEE: how can you defend your god, if he does not help or care or appear?

i wonder, if the violent reactions of people in islam are actually outbreaks of hate against themselves, against their poverty, their helplessness, against their own god? but they cannot argue so, and then an ENEMY has to be made evil evil evil: the USA, the western living, israel etc.

and now happens this: caricatures of the prophet. it is not just forbidden to do this, its the ENEMY, who did it!!! i wonder, if people in islam do not sometimes think, "i would love to it, too. i would love to live in the western countries, and do what they do"? but they cannot ask that, and they probably allow themselves not to thing like that. but the doubt might be there - this energy, which they have to get rid of...

also i wonder, why it took so long to react on these danish images - they were published in september 2005!!! apparently, people in the islamic countries are truly behind an iron curtain, and the islamic leaders were just waiting for a good moment to use these illustrations for their own sake: now iran is in trouble because of the nuclear issues. and in the palestain territories, their were probably busy with preparations of their recent elections. so, i wonder if those protests are actually free expression of those poeple, or rather induced hare by some political leaders...

hmm, hate is a strong word. i have never hated my wife, parents, teachers, brother, etc.

it all seems damn scary to me...

totally scary.

from the NY times yesterday:

""We will not accept less than severing the heads of those responsible," one preacher at Al Omari mosque in Gaza told worshipers during Friday Prayer, according to Reuters. Other demonstrators called for amputating the hands of the cartoonists who drew the pictures."

and some followers of islam wonder why the christians ( and atheists ) are sometimes feeling a bit scared ?

at least when pat robertson goes off on a nut, our culture allows us all to call him out on it. not so sure of the safety of those who crit the extremists in the other camp...?

i dunno, you get capped if you stand up to say maybe the beheading idea is too much?

Ramzy Baroud believes the Muslim world is sadly taking on the wrong enemy. Punishing Denmark via Al Ahram.

Admit it, anyone who is that affected by a stupid cartoon, is fucked-up in the head. Cartotns themselves....Kind of a stupid move - publishing the cartoon - but let's face it, look at the insane reaction.
Anyone makes a cartoon of jesus or buddah or whatever other fucking religious icon, and I'm like, whatever...loser. Burning my flag isn't cool, either....religious freaks!