Is it just me or are their demands unreasonable? I'm all for unions, but retirement at 50? And a 24% pay increase when the average MTA salary is 63K a year? I mean, really...
this is an excerpt from someone's email in my office this morning:
This is a second transmission to those parties who may give a flyin’ hoot- I will not be in Friday, 23 December 2005 as originally outlined.
I will come in if you give me an 8% pay raise, and stop making deductions for healthcare. Additionally- I never expect to be disciplined again. Also, I want you to pay my pension and I expect to retire at 47 years old. And I want free coffee and biscuits, free paper towels, and I want solitaire installed on my machine- IMMEDIATELY!
I guess it depends what's being offered by the other side. I haven't heard...maybe it's an increased retirement age and a freeze on pay raises. As in any negotiation I'm sure they're overreaching so that when they compromise they're giving up things they never really expected to get in the first place.
i'm pretty neutal on unions. they definitely serve their purpose, and i have seen the benefits firsthand on union construction sites, but they can also be greedy and selfish.
I mean, I dont think it's unreasonable to make the same as the LIRR conductors. But my knuckles are bleeding right now from riding my bike from Bushwick to Chelsea in 19 degree weather.
Walked down along the East River this morning, from 35th Street to right near City Hall. It was a great stroll. Tonight, however, I'm less likely to enjoy it.
Sorry you NY 'necters are dealing with this in such cold weather, and not to mention the week before Christmas when no doubt you have 3x more errands and whatnot to accomplish in a day as usual.
JohnProlly, the Times photos showed people walking their bikes across bridges because they were too crowded with pedestrians to ride - drag. Get yourself some lobster gloves, great for biking in cold!
As usual, I worry most about the parents trying to get young kids to places in the city - not easy under the best of circumstances. Hang in there ya'll. Hope this gets resolved soon so everyone can make it to their holiday travel destinations too!
they had a transit strike here in austin and nobody noticed
i feel for y'all, but then again at least you have options. here in austin when the bus drivers went on strike there were thousands of low-income people who couldn't get anywhere b/c of general sprawl and the lack of transit options
unions do great construction work but yeah, it's hard to sympathize with someone who thinks it's their god-given right to retire at 50
Seriously, why would anyone side with any Union. Have you ever read the front end documents on a Union construction job.
The laborer that sweeps up the floor makes more per hour than most intern architects. He never went to college. When I was an intern my cousin made more money than me driving a dozer.
The UAW could put GM and Ford in bankruptcy. When Delphi filed for bankruptcy I read a quote that said the guy that cuts the grass at the plants was making $65/hour. How can anybody justify making that much money to cut grass.
I agree there was a time and place for Unions...but that time has long since passed. I say fire the Union workers and hire somebody else to drive the busses and trains...there's got to be somebody willing to do it...perhaps college students
Oh I was up early and there were like 12 of us riding our fixies up and across the bridge, from there I shot up ave b to 1st ave and across on 21st - made it to work in 25 minutes. Not bad.
i really thought they were bluffing after they pushed back the deadline. luckily i live 10 minutes away from work. the city was unusually quiet on my walk in this morning. i just hope i can find a cab to laguardia later this week!
This is the death nail for the unions. They are a dying animal and now theyre attacking any chance they get.
You have to be a moron to think unions are the reason union tradesmen are good workers. Im in construction and everyday I see stupidity and ignorance defended and protected by unioin cover. Look - if their pension programs werent the largest institutional investors on Wall St. ( NY Teachers Pension is the largest), they'd already be dead. Wall St. wont be so kind to strong arm tacticts. They have there own more sinister ways.
lateral...
the difference between me and a unionized employee is:
-healthcare
-being paid a portion of my salary after retirement
-structured pay raises every year
-bonuses
i realize there are exceptions to every rule..but i don't think
that the typical union employee is hurting year after year..
at least construction workers...now if you were to argue
about janitorial unions or the like then i could maybe agree
with you...but carpenter's unions and the like? no question
they'll make more money over the long run at the very least
on a per hour basis..
Keep in mind that Unions, like everyone else, leave themselves bargaining room when they enter negotiations. And the reason that they exist is that if corporations (and governmental employers) were unchecked those workers would be retiring at 90 and making $5 an hour. Due to the costs involved, unions don't exist in industries where folks feel that they are being treated fairly.
And to go back to Spirk's Ford example, it's pretty hard for me to feel bad for poor William Clay Ford when it is Ford Motors villainous labor practices that gave the unions the power they have today.
and i walked from prospect park to the base of the brooklyn
bridge this morning..where i found a car asking for a 4th person
to go over the bridge into manhattan...for those that don't know
a car can not enter manhattan below 96th street without four
people in it...including cabs.
a cab ride within manhattan is now a 10 per person flat fee with
a 10 per person/per zone added charge. to get from wall st.
to central park i believe you have to go through four zones.
that's a charge of 50 per person i believe.
Are the cabs jacking up prices to take advantage of the strike? Isn't that illegal? If I remember correctly, cabs are not normally that much are they?
I think that unions were really useful many years ago when fair wages and proper working conditions weren't a concern in meat-packing plants, vehicle assembly lines and the like, but in instances like this they are only doing themselves a disservice. We now live in a sue-happy society with 24-hour-a-day access to the internet and many different ways of communication. If there were no unions and a worker wasn't being treated properly, wouldn't we all know about it instantly? And wouldn't a lawyer be more than happy to go after an employer?
I wonder if the unions haven't outlived their usefulness entirely.
I mean, our experiences with Union contractors have been horrid. I'm not too excited about unions right now - I think they should be limited to government work [teachers, ect]
cabs are usually far less expensive..but it is part of the 'contingency
plan'...cabs i believe typically make a 2.50 flat fee and then it's
a certain amount per mile...a cab ride to upper manhattan typically
would be 20 bucks or so...regardless of the number of passengers..
if i'm doing the math right it seems as though a ride uptown could
be as much as 10x that right now...but i could be off.
it may be hard for those of us who sit in front of computers all day to imagine, but most poor people (who are the most likely to be takend advantage of by an employer) don't have easy access to computers or the internet to voice their concerns. i've done some volunteer work with the poor and have encountered many who barely knew what the internet was, let alone how to use it.
also, not to keep beating this dead horse, but wal mart is the most glaring example of why we still very much need unions in this country. grocery unions have managed to keep wal mart from selling groceries in my area, so one is able to work in some of the other local grocery chains and actually make a wage that allows them to support themselves and their family.
i think we should be striving to get to a point in this country where even the poorest among us makes enough to be able to afford housing, food, clothing, utilities, and to be able to support a family without having to work more than one job. if unions can get us to that point, more power to them.
Yeah, gotta throw my name into the anti-union hat. The only real place in America where unions are surviving today is in government. The way to get around that is by outsourcing everything, even stuff that shouldn't be. I think the NY transit system could be made private and work just fine. Most other cities transit systems in America don't have that kind of ridership to make possible. Do you think for one minute a privately owned NY subway would be run by union workers? Not if they want to keep fares reasonable.
Unions have their time and place. We can thank them for things like getting Labor day as a holiday, and the 40 hour work week, and some of the OT rules...which exempts most architects. Anyway, they did a good job years ago when they were needed. Now they are needed in the new developing countries....China, Mexico, Brazil, India, etc.
Everyone likes to say we should unionize Wal-Mart. I despise that company, but I also believe in the power of the worker. Adam Smith economics...if you don't like what you are paid, don't work there. If Wal-Mart couldn't get any employees at one wage they'd be forced to raise that wage. I know I'll get a mouthful because poor people need money and will work for low wages instead of no wages. Granted, it isn't a perfect world, but the point is that what unions work to achieve has already been done in the USA. Now they just represent greed and sloth.
the typical modern unionist in the US has an "institutional revolution" mindset. that is: that the revolution never ends, that the "fight" against employers and their greed and exploitation is an ongoing thing. unions were sorely needed when people were working 80 hour weeks without overtime or proper work conditions. but once the government (i.e., the people) come to a consensus about proper work conditions enough to codify them into law -- the unions should (have) move(d) into a role of watchdog and whistleblower, making sure that the employers are following the law.
unfortunately, however, the unions and their bosses got drunk on dues and political influence and just keep (kept) demanding more handouts. contrast this, say, with the ACLU. the ACLU is not demanding MORE rights much anymore (maybe save gay marriage) as much as making sure that the rights we have earned are being respected. thus the ACLU is still relevant whereas unions are negotiating us into a low-wage third-world economic model.
i know for all you local new yorkers this has gotta suck. when i was living in italy we had plenty of train strikes. not crippling like its seems to be in nyc, but terribly inconvient.
but i am supposed to be flying into nyc on christmas and need to get uptown. is this strike supposed to go through the new year? that would be terrible. however i guess during my visit to new york i would get a great tour of my friends apartment. does anybody have an idea how long this will last. i havent been plugged into the news at all.
take out the fatcaps and rusto silvers. ghostyard here i come.
I rode my bike to work today, and a cool side-effect of this thing is that, because they aren't letting cars with less than four people into manhattan, there is actually less car traffic today. I think that they should enforce that rule all the time.
.....Yeah but they are saying that rule is actually hurting cab drivers too, since they aren't letting cabs in without at least 4 people as well. So one cabbie made about $100 less this morning than on a typical morning.
The whole things looks awful. I don't know about you but I probably couldn't ride my bike in the freezing weather, I just don't have the physiology for it. Good thing I have to waste a bunch of fossil fuels to get to work where I live :o/
The MTA took several measures off the table to meet the demands of the unions including asking them to pay premiums on the health insurance and raising the retirment age and, their pay raise offer - they raise it to come to a middle ground and the union rejected them. I feel like the MTA has done well with their negotiations and the Union is pure greed. 62.5K to drive a bus/train without education and then have no responsibility when something on the bus occurs such as a fight??
and to Lateral, whom said earlier in the thread that they have no chance for upward mobility; I offer you this:they had a choice to work hard and go to college and get a degree where they could have that "upward mobility" but they chose not to. is this my fault? is this why I had to walk across a bridge to get into work today? because some chump in a greedy union doesn't have upward mobility?
I hope the fines are hefty and that the MTA doesn't budge. I personally would rather hike it then see the demands met.
and to Lateral, whom said earlier in the thread that they have no chance for upward mobility; I offer you this:they had a choice to work hard and go to college and get a degree where they could have that "upward mobility" but they chose not to. is this my fault? is this why I had to walk across a bridge to get into work today? because some chump in a greedy union doesn't have upward mobility?
boohoo. you had to walk across a bridge. my condolences.
not everyone has a chance to go to college. this is the american lie.
they haven't had a strike in more than five years. they were due for one anyway. 'times is rough'. cost of living has gone up. inflation is as inevitable as death and taxes. it's just another american way of keeping up with the joneses eh? (who can probably afford better architecture)
i just saw a breaking news item on CNN.com that says that a judge ruled that the TWU (transport workers union) was in contempt of court for striking and ordered that it would be fined $1,000,000 a day starting tuesday...
So is the typical unionized employee saving part of that seniority-based salary to send their kids to college?
In Philly construction unions meant nothing but delays, higher costs, and crappy work performed by one guy while two stood around watching him. I have witnessed personally a couple of big guys in leather jackets show up at projects that tried to use non-union labor - luckily the client ushered me out the door before the conversation started.
However, in the abstract, belonging to a union to guarantee decent working conditions and fair salaries is good for individuals and the economy. I just worry that it breeds a dependent world view. Enforced by thug tactics.
a co-worker of my wife's is an art installer. he showed up in an almost-finished office bldg to install art. the drywallers formed a ring around him and refused to allow him to hang paintings until he produced a union card. of course he didn't have one, b/c art installers aren't unionized. they kept saying it was a drywall trade, hanging art.
i ain't letting some 8th-grade dropout who think he's entitled to 60K a year until he dies hang a judd, that's all there is to it.
In Detroit if you don't use a Union trade on a construction project they bring out a giant blow up rat place it on the most prominent corner and picket every day.
So, most public projects won't hire non-union. Is this far to the guy that just chooses not to join the Union?
I am sorry Lateral, but my $40,000+ in student loans says anyone can go to college. My parents didn't pay for me to go to architecture school. I worked 2 jobs when i was in undergrad...and went to grad school at night and worked full time during the day. So anybody can go to college if they put their mind to it.
spirk: you're forgetting that you must have had a K-12 education that gave you the foundation you needed to get into college. a lot of people don't get that foundation. a student could go through some of the particularly bad school systems getting straight A's and still not necessarily have an easy time getting into college. once you've missed the boat on some of the fundamentals in the early years, it's not something just taking a few SAT prep courses can smooth over. are you going to start blaming 6 year olds for not imploring their parents to move into a better school district?
What I wish people would concentrate on how the NYC subways system is simply not working anymore.
How does MTA have a $1B surplus and the entire system is in shambles with non-existent reliance and poor upkeep. $4 a day gets me a packed ride to and from work and the entire experience is like being forced into sharing a public toilet after a Dave Matthew's Band festival show...yuck! While the tourists find it a thrilling experience, the subway network here is simply a dinosaur that is a symptom of a complete lack of vision or regard for a shared public good in the new century. With all the money that flows on this island, it should be much better than what it is for being the critical means of daily transport for the entire city.
I am tired of visiting other cities and seeing how their subways are designed to be clean, efficent, and humane...where here, the city and the MTA are content to treat people as livestock.
chicago's the same, bryden, except that the CTA is perennially losing money. i once got on a double express bus so old it had an ad for "discount color televisions" up above one of the seats. circa mid 70s, i'd guessed by the font. they finally had to rebuild the douglas el, it was so rickety, rivets falling out and trains unable to go more than 10 mph
public transit all over this country is a damn SHAME. go to moscow, see their ultra-architecturally-significant, ultra-clean, ultra-efficient (although not ultra-new) metro system. granted, stalin built it, but hey--moscow's practically the third world these days and the trains still come on time. every minute at rush hour.
i think one major difference is that the nyc transit is one of the
few in the world that runs 24 hours a day...this is great for
getting home at 4am after the bars close..but not good for
scheduling construction.
paris closes at one or so.
london - midnight or so.
dc - 3am
which may be one reason the chicago and ny subway systems
are always in decline...and aren't usually that clean...
however when you look at the pics of the old school ny
subway it seems as though things have improved in that
area fairly significantly...i mean they provide service to all
of the buroughs..that's a huge amount of area to cover...
but i think you should also concede that the typical unionized
employee is not clipping out coupons to get groceries.
probably because you don't live with one. and you shouldn't assume. for all you know, the mta is run by the mafia.
public transportation systems in other countries definitely put the ones in this country to shame. but this is probably because this country really doesn't invest significantly in the public interest. the motto of america could be a combination of 'good enough' and 'the bottom line'. maybe this is part of why america has become a post-human culture. and maybe that's why we have things in this country like neocons and a dipshit for prez.
i worked two jobs at one point too. i have worked hard and paid my dues. i also have 40,000+ in student loans. the difference is i at least have sympathy for other people who are trying to also have a better life as well.
strikes happen. just ask anyone in say, france or italy, where people strike at a the drop of a knitting needle. welcome to the rest of the developed world (which at least has a social safety net and health insurance)
the difference is also because there is a bigger focus on the well-being of the consumer/customer. i have been a student abroad in the UK at one point and noticed that whenever the school internet system was down, the kids who would start bitching, complaining, and twitching their fingers uncontrollably like they had some kind of violent tic were the american students. probably because they were torn apart form their AIM account and weren't pinging every other second. they would demand to 'speak to the manager' . the other internationals , UK or european students were the ones that just took the 'bad news' in stride, didn't get so easily frustrated, and were overall more patient and polite.
maybe we could learn from our international brothers and sisters a little something.
After we get done beating the unioins - lets destroy the insurance giants pulling the strings and fanning these types of fires. I mean look - people are striking to have the chance to get money taken out of their paychecks every month to the tune of 250 or 300 for a single person? Who'd of thunk it?
i was in madrid during a one-day "general strike" which seemed to me like an extra day off
had to walk all the way from atocha to the city center
fortunately my homies at museo del jamon was on they job. i ate four bocadillos on the way in. mmm, took a general strike for me to see just how good calamares y mayonesa are
sure, americans are impatient -- but that impatience also drives our innovation. those patient, cynical europeans wouldn't have the internet if the DoD hadn't got sick of sending paper messages
so you may be right...i concede that point...although i do still
think the construction unions definitely take care of their own...
i at one point considered becoming an apprentice carpenter
which would have paid me 25 dollars/hr coming out of school..
though i don't know that i would've needed a college education...
i guess the major difference is skilled labor vs. general labor.
i agree that 'impatience' may drives american innovation, but at the same time , i see that the 'impatience' that once may have driven american innovation has transmorgrified into an inhuman, production obsessed culture.
NYC strike - way to start my week
this sucks. Now I have to ride my bike to the office in 22 degree weather.
I think if I were up there I'd use it as an excuse to take a snow day.
Is it just me or are their demands unreasonable? I'm all for unions, but retirement at 50? And a 24% pay increase when the average MTA salary is 63K a year? I mean, really...
this is an excerpt from someone's email in my office this morning:
This is a second transmission to those parties who may give a flyin’ hoot- I will not be in Friday, 23 December 2005 as originally outlined.
I will come in if you give me an 8% pay raise, and stop making deductions for healthcare. Additionally- I never expect to be disciplined again. Also, I want you to pay my pension and I expect to retire at 47 years old. And I want free coffee and biscuits, free paper towels, and I want solitaire installed on my machine- IMMEDIATELY!
And a new pair of shoes… and glasses…
Wonder:
I guess it depends what's being offered by the other side. I haven't heard...maybe it's an increased retirement age and a freeze on pay raises. As in any negotiation I'm sure they're overreaching so that when they compromise they're giving up things they never really expected to get in the first place.
i'm pretty neutal on unions. they definitely serve their purpose, and i have seen the benefits firsthand on union construction sites, but they can also be greedy and selfish.
I mean, I dont think it's unreasonable to make the same as the LIRR conductors. But my knuckles are bleeding right now from riding my bike from Bushwick to Chelsea in 19 degree weather.
Walked down along the East River this morning, from 35th Street to right near City Hall. It was a great stroll. Tonight, however, I'm less likely to enjoy it.
Sorry you NY 'necters are dealing with this in such cold weather, and not to mention the week before Christmas when no doubt you have 3x more errands and whatnot to accomplish in a day as usual.
JohnProlly, the Times photos showed people walking their bikes across bridges because they were too crowded with pedestrians to ride - drag. Get yourself some lobster gloves, great for biking in cold!
As usual, I worry most about the parents trying to get young kids to places in the city - not easy under the best of circumstances. Hang in there ya'll. Hope this gets resolved soon so everyone can make it to their holiday travel destinations too!
they had a transit strike here in austin and nobody noticed
i feel for y'all, but then again at least you have options. here in austin when the bus drivers went on strike there were thousands of low-income people who couldn't get anywhere b/c of general sprawl and the lack of transit options
unions do great construction work but yeah, it's hard to sympathize with someone who thinks it's their god-given right to retire at 50
Seriously, why would anyone side with any Union. Have you ever read the front end documents on a Union construction job.
The laborer that sweeps up the floor makes more per hour than most intern architects. He never went to college. When I was an intern my cousin made more money than me driving a dozer.
The UAW could put GM and Ford in bankruptcy. When Delphi filed for bankruptcy I read a quote that said the guy that cuts the grass at the plants was making $65/hour. How can anybody justify making that much money to cut grass.
I agree there was a time and place for Unions...but that time has long since passed. I say fire the Union workers and hire somebody else to drive the busses and trains...there's got to be somebody willing to do it...perhaps college students
the difference between you and the laborer who sweeps floors without a college degree is that you as an intern architect have upward social mobility.
so don't cry.
Oh I was up early and there were like 12 of us riding our fixies up and across the bridge, from there I shot up ave b to 1st ave and across on 21st - made it to work in 25 minutes. Not bad.
i really thought they were bluffing after they pushed back the deadline. luckily i live 10 minutes away from work. the city was unusually quiet on my walk in this morning. i just hope i can find a cab to laguardia later this week!
This is the death nail for the unions. They are a dying animal and now theyre attacking any chance they get.
You have to be a moron to think unions are the reason union tradesmen are good workers. Im in construction and everyday I see stupidity and ignorance defended and protected by unioin cover. Look - if their pension programs werent the largest institutional investors on Wall St. ( NY Teachers Pension is the largest), they'd already be dead. Wall St. wont be so kind to strong arm tacticts. They have there own more sinister ways.
lateral...
the difference between me and a unionized employee is:
-healthcare
-being paid a portion of my salary after retirement
-structured pay raises every year
-bonuses
i realize there are exceptions to every rule..but i don't think
that the typical union employee is hurting year after year..
at least construction workers...now if you were to argue
about janitorial unions or the like then i could maybe agree
with you...but carpenter's unions and the like? no question
they'll make more money over the long run at the very least
on a per hour basis..
Keep in mind that Unions, like everyone else, leave themselves bargaining room when they enter negotiations. And the reason that they exist is that if corporations (and governmental employers) were unchecked those workers would be retiring at 90 and making $5 an hour. Due to the costs involved, unions don't exist in industries where folks feel that they are being treated fairly.
And to go back to Spirk's Ford example, it's pretty hard for me to feel bad for poor William Clay Ford when it is Ford Motors villainous labor practices that gave the unions the power they have today.
you forget they spend half the year on unemployment.
and i walked from prospect park to the base of the brooklyn
bridge this morning..where i found a car asking for a 4th person
to go over the bridge into manhattan...for those that don't know
a car can not enter manhattan below 96th street without four
people in it...including cabs.
a cab ride within manhattan is now a 10 per person flat fee with
a 10 per person/per zone added charge. to get from wall st.
to central park i believe you have to go through four zones.
that's a charge of 50 per person i believe.
Union workers spend half of the year on unemployment? I'd like to see the citation on that one.
It seems to me that the unions are actually quite beneficial. Just imagine if there were a Union of Intern Architects.
Are the cabs jacking up prices to take advantage of the strike? Isn't that illegal? If I remember correctly, cabs are not normally that much are they?
I think that unions were really useful many years ago when fair wages and proper working conditions weren't a concern in meat-packing plants, vehicle assembly lines and the like, but in instances like this they are only doing themselves a disservice. We now live in a sue-happy society with 24-hour-a-day access to the internet and many different ways of communication. If there were no unions and a worker wasn't being treated properly, wouldn't we all know about it instantly? And wouldn't a lawyer be more than happy to go after an employer?
I wonder if the unions haven't outlived their usefulness entirely.
Im talking unioin carpenters and operators. Talk to my friend matt - hes snowmobiling in Michigan right now, on your dime.
I mean, our experiences with Union contractors have been horrid. I'm not too excited about unions right now - I think they should be limited to government work [teachers, ect]
Wonder K.
cabs are usually far less expensive..but it is part of the 'contingency
plan'...cabs i believe typically make a 2.50 flat fee and then it's
a certain amount per mile...a cab ride to upper manhattan typically
would be 20 bucks or so...regardless of the number of passengers..
if i'm doing the math right it seems as though a ride uptown could
be as much as 10x that right now...but i could be off.
it may be hard for those of us who sit in front of computers all day to imagine, but most poor people (who are the most likely to be takend advantage of by an employer) don't have easy access to computers or the internet to voice their concerns. i've done some volunteer work with the poor and have encountered many who barely knew what the internet was, let alone how to use it.
also, not to keep beating this dead horse, but wal mart is the most glaring example of why we still very much need unions in this country. grocery unions have managed to keep wal mart from selling groceries in my area, so one is able to work in some of the other local grocery chains and actually make a wage that allows them to support themselves and their family.
i think we should be striving to get to a point in this country where even the poorest among us makes enough to be able to afford housing, food, clothing, utilities, and to be able to support a family without having to work more than one job. if unions can get us to that point, more power to them.
Yeah, gotta throw my name into the anti-union hat. The only real place in America where unions are surviving today is in government. The way to get around that is by outsourcing everything, even stuff that shouldn't be. I think the NY transit system could be made private and work just fine. Most other cities transit systems in America don't have that kind of ridership to make possible. Do you think for one minute a privately owned NY subway would be run by union workers? Not if they want to keep fares reasonable.
Unions have their time and place. We can thank them for things like getting Labor day as a holiday, and the 40 hour work week, and some of the OT rules...which exempts most architects. Anyway, they did a good job years ago when they were needed. Now they are needed in the new developing countries....China, Mexico, Brazil, India, etc.
Everyone likes to say we should unionize Wal-Mart. I despise that company, but I also believe in the power of the worker. Adam Smith economics...if you don't like what you are paid, don't work there. If Wal-Mart couldn't get any employees at one wage they'd be forced to raise that wage. I know I'll get a mouthful because poor people need money and will work for low wages instead of no wages. Granted, it isn't a perfect world, but the point is that what unions work to achieve has already been done in the USA. Now they just represent greed and sloth.
the typical modern unionist in the US has an "institutional revolution" mindset. that is: that the revolution never ends, that the "fight" against employers and their greed and exploitation is an ongoing thing. unions were sorely needed when people were working 80 hour weeks without overtime or proper work conditions. but once the government (i.e., the people) come to a consensus about proper work conditions enough to codify them into law -- the unions should (have) move(d) into a role of watchdog and whistleblower, making sure that the employers are following the law.
unfortunately, however, the unions and their bosses got drunk on dues and political influence and just keep (kept) demanding more handouts. contrast this, say, with the ACLU. the ACLU is not demanding MORE rights much anymore (maybe save gay marriage) as much as making sure that the rights we have earned are being respected. thus the ACLU is still relevant whereas unions are negotiating us into a low-wage third-world economic model.
damn damn damn damn
i know for all you local new yorkers this has gotta suck. when i was living in italy we had plenty of train strikes. not crippling like its seems to be in nyc, but terribly inconvient.
but i am supposed to be flying into nyc on christmas and need to get uptown. is this strike supposed to go through the new year? that would be terrible. however i guess during my visit to new york i would get a great tour of my friends apartment. does anybody have an idea how long this will last. i havent been plugged into the news at all.
take out the fatcaps and rusto silvers. ghostyard here i come.
I rode my bike to work today, and a cool side-effect of this thing is that, because they aren't letting cars with less than four people into manhattan, there is actually less car traffic today. I think that they should enforce that rule all the time.
.....Yeah but they are saying that rule is actually hurting cab drivers too, since they aren't letting cabs in without at least 4 people as well. So one cabbie made about $100 less this morning than on a typical morning.
The whole things looks awful. I don't know about you but I probably couldn't ride my bike in the freezing weather, I just don't have the physiology for it. Good thing I have to waste a bunch of fossil fuels to get to work where I live :o/
the union is so out of line on this issue.
The MTA took several measures off the table to meet the demands of the unions including asking them to pay premiums on the health insurance and raising the retirment age and, their pay raise offer - they raise it to come to a middle ground and the union rejected them. I feel like the MTA has done well with their negotiations and the Union is pure greed. 62.5K to drive a bus/train without education and then have no responsibility when something on the bus occurs such as a fight??
and to Lateral, whom said earlier in the thread that they have no chance for upward mobility; I offer you this:they had a choice to work hard and go to college and get a degree where they could have that "upward mobility" but they chose not to. is this my fault? is this why I had to walk across a bridge to get into work today? because some chump in a greedy union doesn't have upward mobility?
I hope the fines are hefty and that the MTA doesn't budge. I personally would rather hike it then see the demands met.
and to Lateral, whom said earlier in the thread that they have no chance for upward mobility; I offer you this:they had a choice to work hard and go to college and get a degree where they could have that "upward mobility" but they chose not to. is this my fault? is this why I had to walk across a bridge to get into work today? because some chump in a greedy union doesn't have upward mobility?
boohoo. you had to walk across a bridge. my condolences.
not everyone has a chance to go to college. this is the american lie.
they haven't had a strike in more than five years. they were due for one anyway. 'times is rough'. cost of living has gone up. inflation is as inevitable as death and taxes. it's just another american way of keeping up with the joneses eh? (who can probably afford better architecture)
lateral...
i agree with you that not everyone is afforded the chance to
go to college...
but i think you should also concede that the typical unionized
employee is not clipping out coupons to get groceries.
i just saw a breaking news item on CNN.com that says that a judge ruled that the TWU (transport workers union) was in contempt of court for striking and ordered that it would be fined $1,000,000 a day starting tuesday...
this is gonna get interesting!!!
So is the typical unionized employee saving part of that seniority-based salary to send their kids to college?
In Philly construction unions meant nothing but delays, higher costs, and crappy work performed by one guy while two stood around watching him. I have witnessed personally a couple of big guys in leather jackets show up at projects that tried to use non-union labor - luckily the client ushered me out the door before the conversation started.
However, in the abstract, belonging to a union to guarantee decent working conditions and fair salaries is good for individuals and the economy. I just worry that it breeds a dependent world view. Enforced by thug tactics.
a co-worker of my wife's is an art installer. he showed up in an almost-finished office bldg to install art. the drywallers formed a ring around him and refused to allow him to hang paintings until he produced a union card. of course he didn't have one, b/c art installers aren't unionized. they kept saying it was a drywall trade, hanging art.
i ain't letting some 8th-grade dropout who think he's entitled to 60K a year until he dies hang a judd, that's all there is to it.
In Detroit if you don't use a Union trade on a construction project they bring out a giant blow up rat place it on the most prominent corner and picket every day.
So, most public projects won't hire non-union. Is this far to the guy that just chooses not to join the Union?
I am sorry Lateral, but my $40,000+ in student loans says anyone can go to college. My parents didn't pay for me to go to architecture school. I worked 2 jobs when i was in undergrad...and went to grad school at night and worked full time during the day. So anybody can go to college if they put their mind to it.
spirk: you're forgetting that you must have had a K-12 education that gave you the foundation you needed to get into college. a lot of people don't get that foundation. a student could go through some of the particularly bad school systems getting straight A's and still not necessarily have an easy time getting into college. once you've missed the boat on some of the fundamentals in the early years, it's not something just taking a few SAT prep courses can smooth over. are you going to start blaming 6 year olds for not imploring their parents to move into a better school district?
What I wish people would concentrate on how the NYC subways system is simply not working anymore.
How does MTA have a $1B surplus and the entire system is in shambles with non-existent reliance and poor upkeep. $4 a day gets me a packed ride to and from work and the entire experience is like being forced into sharing a public toilet after a Dave Matthew's Band festival show...yuck! While the tourists find it a thrilling experience, the subway network here is simply a dinosaur that is a symptom of a complete lack of vision or regard for a shared public good in the new century. With all the money that flows on this island, it should be much better than what it is for being the critical means of daily transport for the entire city.
I am tired of visiting other cities and seeing how their subways are designed to be clean, efficent, and humane...where here, the city and the MTA are content to treat people as livestock.
chicago's the same, bryden, except that the CTA is perennially losing money. i once got on a double express bus so old it had an ad for "discount color televisions" up above one of the seats. circa mid 70s, i'd guessed by the font. they finally had to rebuild the douglas el, it was so rickety, rivets falling out and trains unable to go more than 10 mph
public transit all over this country is a damn SHAME. go to moscow, see their ultra-architecturally-significant, ultra-clean, ultra-efficient (although not ultra-new) metro system. granted, stalin built it, but hey--moscow's practically the third world these days and the trains still come on time. every minute at rush hour.
i think one major difference is that the nyc transit is one of the
few in the world that runs 24 hours a day...this is great for
getting home at 4am after the bars close..but not good for
scheduling construction.
paris closes at one or so.
london - midnight or so.
dc - 3am
CTA runs 24 hrs on the red/blue lines and there are night buses
i got on the blue line at 4 am to go to o'hare once and a group of...urban nomads...were passing around a crack pipe
i graciously declined
which may be one reason the chicago and ny subway systems
are always in decline...and aren't usually that clean...
however when you look at the pics of the old school ny
subway it seems as though things have improved in that
area fairly significantly...i mean they provide service to all
of the buroughs..that's a huge amount of area to cover...
but i think you should also concede that the typical unionized
employee is not clipping out coupons to get groceries.
probably because you don't live with one. and you shouldn't assume. for all you know, the mta is run by the mafia.
public transportation systems in other countries definitely put the ones in this country to shame. but this is probably because this country really doesn't invest significantly in the public interest. the motto of america could be a combination of 'good enough' and 'the bottom line'. maybe this is part of why america has become a post-human culture. and maybe that's why we have things in this country like neocons and a dipshit for prez.
i worked two jobs at one point too. i have worked hard and paid my dues. i also have 40,000+ in student loans. the difference is i at least have sympathy for other people who are trying to also have a better life as well.
strikes happen. just ask anyone in say, france or italy, where people strike at a the drop of a knitting needle. welcome to the rest of the developed world (which at least has a social safety net and health insurance)
the difference is also because there is a bigger focus on the well-being of the consumer/customer. i have been a student abroad in the UK at one point and noticed that whenever the school internet system was down, the kids who would start bitching, complaining, and twitching their fingers uncontrollably like they had some kind of violent tic were the american students. probably because they were torn apart form their AIM account and weren't pinging every other second. they would demand to 'speak to the manager' . the other internationals , UK or european students were the ones that just took the 'bad news' in stride, didn't get so easily frustrated, and were overall more patient and polite.
maybe we could learn from our international brothers and sisters a little something.
After we get done beating the unioins - lets destroy the insurance giants pulling the strings and fanning these types of fires. I mean look - people are striking to have the chance to get money taken out of their paychecks every month to the tune of 250 or 300 for a single person? Who'd of thunk it?
i was in madrid during a one-day "general strike" which seemed to me like an extra day off
had to walk all the way from atocha to the city center
fortunately my homies at museo del jamon was on they job. i ate four bocadillos on the way in. mmm, took a general strike for me to see just how good calamares y mayonesa are
sure, americans are impatient -- but that impatience also drives our innovation. those patient, cynical europeans wouldn't have the internet if the DoD hadn't got sick of sending paper messages
lateral..
so you may be right...i concede that point...although i do still
think the construction unions definitely take care of their own...
i at one point considered becoming an apprentice carpenter
which would have paid me 25 dollars/hr coming out of school..
though i don't know that i would've needed a college education...
i guess the major difference is skilled labor vs. general labor.
i agree that 'impatience' may drives american innovation, but at the same time , i see that the 'impatience' that once may have driven american innovation has transmorgrified into an inhuman, production obsessed culture.
we need more siestas.
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