I want to try to get this straight for people who are wondering. Right off, for all you non-professional degree holders (in architecture) you do not need to go back to school to get licensed. And you can get licensed in almost any state you like (71% of them to be precise) though some will take some time. IDP is probably a good idea - just because you have to keep track of your time anyway in IDP's format, so you might as well get it from the source. I'll try to break it down so it's easy to follow. It took me a long time and a lot of research and nay saying of BArch & MArch holders who kept telling me I had to go back to school before I really figured all this out. The way NCARB words this stuff makes it very discouraging for the B.A. (or B.S.) holders. They say things like, “Is a professional degree from an NAAB-accredited program the primary means of satisfying your board's education requirement?” That does not mean the only means.
These are the states that accept experience and an alternative to a professional degree (meaning a B.A. is satisfactory) to get initial registration. There may be more too. NCARB really tries to hide this fact from people. Missouri wasn't even on the list. I didn't go through them, but I would visit your state's individual web site for more accurate info. Some will take more time (like Missouri, which is the longest - 8 years) but most will take less (like Wisconsin - 4 years). This experience is not in addition to IDP - it is just experience. And I guarantee you will not finish IDP for at least 4 years anyway.
AZ CA CO GA Guam HI ID IL KY MD ME MO MP NH NY PA TX VI VT WA WI
That's 18 states out of 51 and 3 out of 4 U.S. territories. So you can go ahead and get registered in any one of these states and even if you don't live in that state or will be able to practice in your own state, you will at least be a registered architect. The only states you actually have to live in to get registered are Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Puerto Rico.
Then, if you want to get registered in your state, you apply for reciprocal registration. This basically is a process which says I am already a registered architect in another jurisdiction, so I apply to have that transferred to another. B.A. people can do this in all states but the following - these are the states where you need an NCARB certificate (read professional degree):
AK AL AR DC GA Guam IA KS KY MA MS MT ND NV OR PR RI SC UT
In all the other states it varies, but it's possible. In some states all it takes is some paperwork. In other states, like New Mexico for instance, you have to work as a licensed architect for 5 years before being able to apply for reciprocity. I would visit your local board's web site on this requirement as NCARB won't tell you. Some of these states above do not require a professional degree for initial registration, so that leaves us the following as the only states you cannot get registered in after all is said and done:
AK AL AR DC IA KS MA MS MT ND NV OR PR RI SC UT
That's 16 states and territories out of 55 and almost all of them are very rural. So if you're in any of these states or are dying to live in any of these states, then it's time to go back to school. Too bad about Oregon (actually I just looked and Oregon DOES allow reciprocity through NCARB's “Broadly Experienced Architect” program but you have to be licensed for 10 years!). This makes me think it's possible with ALL the states above but could take a really long time. Otherwise, there is hope and you don't have to shell out 50K to get licensed. Although after reading this it doesn't exactly look pleasant. But it is definitely manageable. I have not gone through this reciprocity process yet, and people love telling me how difficult it is, so keep that in mind. This has really all been done in a retrofit effort to try to finagle my way around going to grad school because WashU is pitiful in educating its students about what happens once they leave. Grad school, maybe some day I may want to do, but as for now, it just isn't feasible.
If you are in high school and reading this, save yourself the headache and AVOID 4 YEAR PROGRAMS LIKE THE PLAGUE!
How does the song go? “I wish then I knew what I know now.”
Thanks Pollen - It took me years to get it straight. My own university of Illinois at Chicago told me in 1997 I could never become a licensed architect in the State of Illinois with that school's 4 year B.S. Not so! Hopefully your post will clear up the confusion and awkwardness of what should be a straight forward process.
I have a BA in art from a liberal arts college and I loved every moment of it. I got to just sit and learn things I wanted to learn regardless of their pertinence to my professional aspirations. Gives you a solid knowledge foundation that comes in handy more often than you might think. I've never regretted it once or felt like I was wasting my time. I learned a lot and had great professors.
I didnt see that last part about avoiding 4-year programs - Pollen, the 4 year got me out of school quicker, avoiding debt, allowing me to get to work earlier, and in more types of jobs making my experiance broader, and oh yeah, made enough money to purchase a home before my comrades were out of grad. I fully recomend cutting it off at 4 years - this isnt rocket science. You dont need a masters to draw buildings nor do you need validation to conceptualize whats possible.
Why go to school at all? After your kid finishes kindergarten, get 'em in a cad class, and by the time their lazy peers are finishing up high school, they'll be a partner at their firm!
I like how the person without the professional degree is saying it's a waste of time. There are other benefits to extended schooling other than ease of licensure.
You (hopefully) go to school to explore your ideas, expand your knowledge of different techniques and processes, and work with different ideas and people. Most firms aren't pushing the boundaries in what you can do in architecture, and trying new things. School is a good opportunity to do those things. I know you do these things in undergrad too, but I don't understand how going an extra year or three where you are more fully developing your ideas and thought process is a waste of time.
I know they are disappearing, but I am very pleased with my 5-year BArch from a state school. I was an instate student, so it wa not too expensive, and an exrta year of school was an extra year of fun as far as I was concerned.
evilP - Word. I am licensed before 90% of the people I graduated with (4-year) who went on to Grad School. If I remember, you're only about a year behind me...
PPZ - They held me back because of that Detroit chick thing - I had to sit out until the new curriculum was in effect and then merge in with them - No prob - picked up the hammer and jacked roofs and trusses for 2 years and save some coin. They did me a favor really.
What I meant is that is all behind you, you have your idp out of the way, you are rgistered with NCARB and you will be completing your ARE exams withi the next year or so, right?
Friggin hot out today, huh?
So in LA, San Fran, Chi. NYC where our densest cities are the min req. is 4 yr + IDP yet if I want to build a tree house in Oregon I need a masters......smoke another please.
Unfortunately this profession suffers greatly from the people who dont understand what education is in so many other industries. As a result we are behind the curve with technology in firms, and those of you who raced to make yourself career people (so that you could have a house or a kid or whatever the reason) tend to think that what people should be learning is how you build buildings.
Other industries do the opposite, young talent is recruited because universities can teach things that you cant afford to learn in the real world. So while you glow about having a house, and having not paid for grad school, I am happy to have had experiances that you will never get, met people that you lookforward to buying their next book and done research on things that your firm will think is cutting edge in 5-10 years.
Oh and I forgot, with a masters, I will prob be your boss sooner...
caffeinejunkie
Don't be so defensive, but I don't think you be anyone's boss any sooner as a result of your education vs. your performance. But it is good to speculte on the future and subsequently justify ythe path you've taken....but not all people agree with you. The biggest problem I've found is that alot of people are over-educated and under-common senses. (I may have beetr articulated that if I had your education) Another thing I've found is your rewards are typically a result of your performance, unless you blow yourself up the corporate ladder, in any case, that's not architecture.
Another consideration: At my current firm (snooty, published), we will not consider job applicants who only have B.A. degrees, except maybe for model maker/summer intern positions. I'm not making a value judgement, and I'm sure this isn't true for every firm, but it is worth thinking about before anyone decides to go the non-professional route.
Caffeeine junkie - Im hiring. Your tiring. Show me this magic research going on in school - composites? Yeah, 30 years behind material science majors. CAD-CAM? See Detroit circa 1976. Your professers tell you your on the cutting edge, dont believe them. I agree the studio environment is needed for our development but lets not beat the horses, know when to say when. And I dont get suckered into buying some $125 wet dream book either.
Ironically though, to call it a non-professional route is a misnomer....I am a licensed Architect and chances are you are not - so who's the freakin professional? But I do know what you meant.
I wish you the best in reaping the rewards of your higher education and Status.
Later!
Okay, I may have overstepped my bounds with the avoid the 4 year programs statement. Let me rephrase, for all you high school students, know about this before going into or atleast finishing a 4 year degree. I wouldn't have traded my 4 year degree for the world. 95% design oriented, very little science oriented figuring you can learn that when you get out.
Really, what I'm bitter about was my school's lack of education on this information. We had a 4+2 program but no one knew about it or even what it meant. We didn't think we needed to. I never even heard of a BArch until about a year out of school. All I knew was when I applied to college one program took 5 years and the other took 4. Duh, what do you think a naive high school student will do? Just last month we interviewed someone who came from that BArch program I passed up on and it sounds like I got a far better education.
So, 4 year programs, yes are still good as long as you know about the options. I was speaking strictly in licensing terms. I really should have considered design terms and development terms (but since I'm going through this process right now, it's where my head is.)
One more thing. Listening to people in acedemia telling you that anything less than a masters is inadequate, is like listening to a developer tell you there isn't a housing bubble. What do you expect to hear from those whose livelihood depend on the perpetuation of THEIR cause. You can create success from nothing, smater people tend to need less formal education as they are inherently able to learn more from life than from a path of indoctrination. To each his own, but I am comfortable with my choices, my mind, and the life ahead of me. The more I hear from the likes of condescending graduates the more I vow to not hire you. I repsect a hard-working undegrad more than an entitilist Graduate.
smater people tend to need less formal education as they are inherently able to learn more from life than from a path of indoctrination.... The more I hear from the likes of condescending graduates the more I vow to not hire you.
Are you a really bitter person, or did you just get up on the wrong side of the bed? It's great that you're "smater" (sic) and know that people can surely be judged simply by their educational background. Well done.
Also, thinking even more, I'm really all for the 4 year people and the B.A. track, otherwise I would have not taken the time to let people know about this stuff.
I learned more working during that year or 2 that a "professional" degree would have ever afforded me. And I probably would have learned exponentially more if I had, like pimp, taken up a hammer and worked in construction for 2 years.
Janosh, I think you're wrong about your firm. The reason they don't want B.A. people is because they don't want to lose someone to grad school after 1 or 2 years of working. If that B.A. person laid it on the table and said, "Look, you may be worried that I need to go back to school. I'm not going back to school - I don't need to. Here it is in plain writing, I will get licensed after working for you for (X) years." I'm sure they'll hire that person.
AC4A,
I didn't say I was smarter than anyone, I implied smarter people need to be educated less and are inherently able to suceed regardless of their papers.
The fact that you couldn't extroplate meaning from a clearly written statemnt reinforces that idea. I am actually quite cheery today, and thank you for the affirmation.
Pimp I miss the old office - how is it over there? I forgot your AIM. Then I forgot my password so I cant use my old AIM - get me at evilplatypus32 now.
Evil - I think Pollen is wit cha - not against ya.
Pimp Has 11 years of construction experience prior to Architecture...
Evil, you've been in construction your whole life, right?
Literally?
Ya - I try to get out but they pull me back in. But it sweet because the world is changing so fast, the economics are getting so uncontrolable or predictable it will be impossible to be just one thing. I'm excited for the combination of the building and design profesion. And for the worriers there will be no loss of creativity when this occurs.
It's cool - AND anonymous!
Thanks for the new IM.
We miss you too - as you were the glue that bound this atmosphere of JOY!
Do you know of any Metal Truss Specialists -I know you are wood experts, but metal? We need someone to cut-off some exisitng (bizarre) metall truss and resupport at the new shorter length. (No direct references to my project, please)
Pimpoo - I am a licensed architect, and I am sure you understand it when I say a BA is a non-professional route to the extent that it does not include a professional degree.
What's the difference between going to a school with an official (accredited?/licensed?) BA Architecture program, and just majoring in architecture at a liberal arts school? One where, say, you design your own major...
First off: I don't think NCARB is trying to keep the "alternative" ways toward registration a secret. In fact in the last issue of "Direct Connections" (the NCARB newsletter) they featured a guy who got his NCARB certificate through the Broadly Experienced Architect category. This guy has about 20 years of experience and the BEA process alone took him about 3 years to complete. So: no, it's not impossible, but it is not a quick or painless option.
As far as all of the states' regulations that you have listed: the summaries on NCARB's website for each state don't always tell the whole story.
You're correct that in many states there is a way to become registered without a professional degree. In my state someone without a professional degree would be unable to get reciprocal registration here unless they have been registered in a limited list of other states for at least 10 years. If they do meet that criteria they may apply for registration, and will most likely be granted registration, but there is an in-person interview involved and the entire process generally takes about 6 months. In contrast a person with an NCARB certificate needs only to fill out a form and wait about 3 weeks for their registration.
Another thing to consider: when I was getting my 4-year degree some years ago I checked the same ncarb site and read these same summaries. At that time the list of states that didn't require a professional degree was much longer, there were more states that would grant direct reciprocity to those registered in more other states, etc. The list of states that required an NCARB certificate was shorter than it is now. NCARB is pushing hard for all states to fall in line with their own vision and most states are going along with this.
Janosh - what is a profesional degree? Is there a governing body that says only this degree shall be profesional? Is that body really NCARB? Do you believe NCARB will last forever? Wont the state universities get upset someday and want the control of the degree given back to them? My super venti ultimate profesional degree is better than yours. We as a generation here, not just archi's, are in trouble when we start believing that all roads are laid out and alll the paths are in front of us simply to be strolled upon.
I hope you are sure I understand because I clearly stated "...but I know what you mean" regarding the misnomer of Professional vs. Non-Professional.
I think it's Pre-professional Degree BTW. There is something implicit in the term "non-professional" - your persuasion.
Congrats on the license - It's a long, hard road getting there, I know.
The curriculum will be different ultimately and you wont' have certain courses that are deemed requisite for a "professional degree".
Evil- It's the NAAB (different from NCARB) that's responsible for accrediting school degree programs. So yes. there is a governing body for "accredited professional" degrees. And all universities and colleges are also accredited themselves by a third party. Specific programs such as Law, Nursing, Medicine, Engineering, etc. all have their own accrediting boards.
Pimp you may be the next Bill Gates of architecture, but as I pointed out before, Bill and most other sucessfull advancing industries use universities as their recruiting grounds because thats where new ideas come from.
Perhaps you dont see merit in that, as you your self pointed out, people sell what they know...but having worked in both large an small firms, one thing that I do know is that clients like to see that the people running their projects have education. So firms promote people with degrees, if for nothing else to impress the client. Most of us have worked for some ass without a clue but the diploma on the wall...that is proof enough
I think that hammer swinging experiance is great, but it also creates the you cant do that because its never been done, or thats not how the do it mentality.
Why is it that houses are still based around an antiquated technology system?
Architecture would be a much different field if more emphasis was put on R&D and less on drawing plans and sections...
You wouldnt brag about having constrction experiance but instead material science, research, etc.
and maybe then we would see buildings actually catch up with the rest of technology, from a material, fabrication, and enviromental standpoint
hammer swinging has done the opposite caffienman - its taught me the way to look at things. Materials are stuff. Stuff needs to be put together. Stuff needs to be put together properly. The inside is just an illusion.....
Why is it that the 3 people who are licensed without a professional degree are on this board? I don't understand why you all are so defensive about it though... If I were going into architecture, all this discussion would say to me is, "yes, you can get licensed without a professional degree (in most places) but it's a bigger pain in the ass."
pencrush - I think the title of the thread has something to do with the fact there are 3 undergrad licensed architects participating in it.
Just a guess. Unless you are suggesting there are Only 3 in existence and they all found eachother here....in which case, archinect is a more powerful force than it was originally thought to be.
In Illinois, you can get a four year degree, work at a firm for 4 years, and then qualify for the ARE. The alternative route would be a similar or unrelated undergrad experience, 2 years of grad school, and approx 2 years in the field before eligibility. I'm not sure which is a bigger pain in the ass. Some argue a grad will earn more in their lifetime, but a two year headstart building wealth in contrast to spending as much in the same amount of time while in grad school is a pretty big gap to close if the two subjects are getting licensed at the same time. Food for thought. All depends on the individual, I guess.
that's true in illinois, but it's not that way everywhere. I know I had no idea where I would be living after I graduated college. I dunno seems risky to me to go without the education.
If you do live somewhere with a relative fasttrack to licensure, fortunately or unfortunately, once you get in a job, I don't think most firms would care if you have a GED or Phd, it's all about your experience and performance.
For the Record, In the State of Georgia, you can get licensed with a 4yrs B.S. (Architecture concentration) degree from a NAAB school ONLY in the State of Georgia: Georgia Tech or SCAD. Or if you have a B.S. in 'Architecture Engineering Technology' from say, Southern Polytechnical Institute.
HOWEVER, there are caveats: A 4yr B.S. Arch or 4yr B.S. AET degree holder may only take the ARE after: 1) You have sent a letter Declaring your intent to take the ARE BEFORE July 1 2004. 2) Completing IDP
So, if you didn't get your 'Letter of Intent' in by July 1, 2004 (like I did), Nany, Nany BooBoo! You gotta get a 5yr B.S Arch, or an M.Arch.
Oh, I am also gonna Poo-Poo the point about reciprocity: Even if I get my 4yr degree in GA, pass the ARE & complete my IDP, I CANNOT get NCARB certification 'cause NCARB says 'Nany, Nany Boo Boo!' to me.
If you're wanting to get your license somewhere, with minimal requirements - it's Arizona. But again, NCARB will get in your way for
reciprocity.
i have been waiting for this issue to surface for the longest time.. i'm a recent graduate from the University of Pittsburgh with a B.A. in Architectural Studies. my intent was to work for a year or so before enrolling into grad school, but an interview went sour and changed my whole perspective on the 4 year degree... the Architect looked at my Portfolio and seemed impressed by sketches, but asked me a crucial question which was beyond my knowledge- it had to with Material and the calculation of stresses and that stuff. B.A. programs for the most part expose the student to theory and History with a just a touch on design and technology..therefore my question to the archinect architects...Are you ready to hire and nurture a graduate with no understanding of material and a vague grasp on design? I'm channelling my energy towards grad school for i feel like i have no chance against a BArch candidate or MArch candidate.
I am adroit at sketching, proficient in CAD, can put together physical models..am i gonna land a job if i persist?
If you know what your weaknesses are, which it seems you do, teach yourself those things.....besides, when you take your ARE exams, you will either have to relive all of those things or learn them for the first time. Most people have to do that anyway after being out of school for a few years and rotting away at some boring firm. If there is a calling for you to be an architect, then do it.
Hmm, everyone that I know from college that dropped out and just took the 4 year pretty much moved on and isn't in tradition architecture practice. I would assume that there are very few people with the 4 year degrees even trying to get licensed.
I think this entire thread, although imformative, is a dis-service to that kid in high school that wants to be an architect someday. Sure, taking that 4 year degree might get you where you ultimately want to be, but how many people get out in the "real world" and fall into real world issues and never realize their dreams? It takes 100x the effort to get registered not having that NCARB accredited degree. For most it's far easier to take some more years and loans and get it done the easy way.
Also, I got my 5 year BArch. One extra year of college?!? That isn't an overwhelming burden at all. I'd rather not get into the fight about work exp. vs. college. Both have their merits but I do think everyone with that BArch or MArch should be very proud of that degree. By no means is going all the way to the finish line a waste.
Dropped out?
Tradition?
If I remeber correctly, the tradition of Architecture involved a masters Degree and NCARB only recently. The tradition of corporate firms, maybe - but there are plenty of maverick architects out there who have spent a limited time in school. If you can afford to go to grad school do it, but don't ever condescend someone who hasn't as a result of their life circumstances or choices
A: you're talking about a program that is set up as a 5-year professional program but gives students the option of "walking away" with a 4-year degree if they so choose. It's very likely that people who take such a choice in that type of program are thinking of moving in a different direction. But the majority of 4-year programs are stand-alone programs, mostly intended to prepare students to apply to 3- or 3.5- year M.Arch programs, often with advanced standing (in other words they're the "4" component of the now-more-prevalent-than-the-B.Arch "4+2" track.) For instance, the person writing about the University of Pittsburgh's program is in a program that has no 5th year option, and no M.Arch program. The program exists solely as a 4-year program. Most of the students go on to grad school elsewhere.
thatblueprintt: sure you can get a job with that degree if you have a decent portfolio. Firms often hire students with 4-year degrees for a year or two, expecting these people will eventually leave to go back to school. I have a person in my office now who has a 4-year degree. He's considered on an equal level with another intern who just graduated with a B.Arch.
The experience that you gain working fulltime after a "4" component of a "4+2" does count toward IDP.
The long-run consequences of taking the 4-year degree, going to work, and not going back for a professional degree are much trickier, as seen in this thread.
Im in my last year of a 5 year b.arch program, there is really no option of walking away from here, but we have an M.Arch program...
if there are in fact any kids reading this considering architecture, i would HIGHLY recomend 5 year programs...
i guess it all depends on clarity... if your sure architecture is what you want to do, and you love it already, a 5 year program cant miss, and you will be in a much better position after graduation then a graduate from a 4 year program
like others have said, if you dont know for sure you want architecture, then do the 4, and get the +2 later if you decide its for you.
but 5 year programs are tricky... we had to take a couple years of structures classes and our program is not particularly well rounded... its pretty much all architecture or architecture realted classes all the time. it can be tricky because as im sure you all have experienced... we have lost more than 1/2 the studio group to a change of heart, or a lack of motivation
To clarify, everyone I know that took the 4 year degree didn't go into traditional architecture practice. I also was in a program that gave us a 4 year BS degree after 4 years and then an extra year for the BArch. It has since changed to a 4+2 program but that's just how the education is going. Yes, historically the 5 or more years for degree is relative new, but I don't think it's a bad change. In many fields the standard 4 year bachelors degree doesn't hold the same power it once did. What you could do with a 4 year business degree 20 years ago now requires a MBA, etc. The same does apply to architecture. (If schools are teaching what's necessary is a different discussion.)
I don't intend to be condescending towards anyone that just has their 4 year degree. It's just a lesser degree. My perspective is would you like your doctor to still be allowed to practice without his doctorate? It's not all that different when you consider our HSW responsibities. I don't make the rules but it's pretty well cut and dried that NCARB wants you to have that degree if you intend to be licensed. Sure there are loopholes but just by the matter of how difficult they are I think their intentions are clear.
Granted college isn't cheap but most of us take on huge debt to get our degrees. The 4 year "inexpensive" option isn't very fair to those of us that do play by the rules. Face it, life isn't fair and if you can't make it through 5+ years of college maybe becoming a licensed architect isn't in the cards for you.
Personally I think NCARB is a bit too generous. Nobody starting out in college today should have any questions about the difference between an NCARB accredited degree and something else. My opinion is that there are too many architecture schools as well. Maybe the old 4 year stand alone program (at schools without MArch programs) should just die. I hope those schools are very clear to their new students about what it takes to get licensed these days.
Sorry for the negativity but I guess I'm kinda taking this whole thing as a claim that the 4 year degrees are equal to the BArch and MArch. I don't care much for the BArch vs. MArch discussions, but to the death I'll defend the accredited degree programs. I'm proud. Sorry.
I'm proud too. Someone with a 4-year degree is required to have 4 years of practical experience in the field before becoming licensed, while a grad is able to proceed after two years of relevant experience. Some might argue that at the point of licensure, that undergrad brings with him/her more experience to the profession. Some might argue that more school is an advantage, but either way, both are required to take the same test to become an licensed architect, and after doing so, you are equal. If you plan to be a lifetime employee, then yes, it pays to have credentials to establish yourself amid similarly accredited employees.
For all you fancy 4-year degree holders
I want to try to get this straight for people who are wondering. Right off, for all you non-professional degree holders (in architecture) you do not need to go back to school to get licensed. And you can get licensed in almost any state you like (71% of them to be precise) though some will take some time. IDP is probably a good idea - just because you have to keep track of your time anyway in IDP's format, so you might as well get it from the source. I'll try to break it down so it's easy to follow. It took me a long time and a lot of research and nay saying of BArch & MArch holders who kept telling me I had to go back to school before I really figured all this out. The way NCARB words this stuff makes it very discouraging for the B.A. (or B.S.) holders. They say things like, “Is a professional degree from an NAAB-accredited program the primary means of satisfying your board's education requirement?” That does not mean the only means.
These are the states that accept experience and an alternative to a professional degree (meaning a B.A. is satisfactory) to get initial registration. There may be more too. NCARB really tries to hide this fact from people. Missouri wasn't even on the list. I didn't go through them, but I would visit your state's individual web site for more accurate info. Some will take more time (like Missouri, which is the longest - 8 years) but most will take less (like Wisconsin - 4 years). This experience is not in addition to IDP - it is just experience. And I guarantee you will not finish IDP for at least 4 years anyway.
AZ CA CO GA Guam HI ID IL KY MD ME MO MP NH NY PA TX VI VT WA WI
That's 18 states out of 51 and 3 out of 4 U.S. territories. So you can go ahead and get registered in any one of these states and even if you don't live in that state or will be able to practice in your own state, you will at least be a registered architect. The only states you actually have to live in to get registered are Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Puerto Rico.
Then, if you want to get registered in your state, you apply for reciprocal registration. This basically is a process which says I am already a registered architect in another jurisdiction, so I apply to have that transferred to another. B.A. people can do this in all states but the following - these are the states where you need an NCARB certificate (read professional degree):
AK AL AR DC GA Guam IA KS KY MA MS MT ND NV OR PR RI SC UT
In all the other states it varies, but it's possible. In some states all it takes is some paperwork. In other states, like New Mexico for instance, you have to work as a licensed architect for 5 years before being able to apply for reciprocity. I would visit your local board's web site on this requirement as NCARB won't tell you. Some of these states above do not require a professional degree for initial registration, so that leaves us the following as the only states you cannot get registered in after all is said and done:
AK AL AR DC IA KS MA MS MT ND NV OR PR RI SC UT
That's 16 states and territories out of 55 and almost all of them are very rural. So if you're in any of these states or are dying to live in any of these states, then it's time to go back to school. Too bad about Oregon (actually I just looked and Oregon DOES allow reciprocity through NCARB's “Broadly Experienced Architect” program but you have to be licensed for 10 years!). This makes me think it's possible with ALL the states above but could take a really long time. Otherwise, there is hope and you don't have to shell out 50K to get licensed. Although after reading this it doesn't exactly look pleasant. But it is definitely manageable. I have not gone through this reciprocity process yet, and people love telling me how difficult it is, so keep that in mind. This has really all been done in a retrofit effort to try to finagle my way around going to grad school because WashU is pitiful in educating its students about what happens once they leave. Grad school, maybe some day I may want to do, but as for now, it just isn't feasible.
If you are in high school and reading this, save yourself the headache and AVOID 4 YEAR PROGRAMS LIKE THE PLAGUE!
How does the song go? “I wish then I knew what I know now.”
Thanks Pollen - It took me years to get it straight. My own university of Illinois at Chicago told me in 1997 I could never become a licensed architect in the State of Illinois with that school's 4 year B.S. Not so! Hopefully your post will clear up the confusion and awkwardness of what should be a straight forward process.
I disagree.
I have a BA in art from a liberal arts college and I loved every moment of it. I got to just sit and learn things I wanted to learn regardless of their pertinence to my professional aspirations. Gives you a solid knowledge foundation that comes in handy more often than you might think. I've never regretted it once or felt like I was wasting my time. I learned a lot and had great professors.
I didnt see that last part about avoiding 4-year programs - Pollen, the 4 year got me out of school quicker, avoiding debt, allowing me to get to work earlier, and in more types of jobs making my experiance broader, and oh yeah, made enough money to purchase a home before my comrades were out of grad. I fully recomend cutting it off at 4 years - this isnt rocket science. You dont need a masters to draw buildings nor do you need validation to conceptualize whats possible.
Why go to school at all? After your kid finishes kindergarten, get 'em in a cad class, and by the time their lazy peers are finishing up high school, they'll be a partner at their firm!
I like how the person without the professional degree is saying it's a waste of time. There are other benefits to extended schooling other than ease of licensure.
You (hopefully) go to school to explore your ideas, expand your knowledge of different techniques and processes, and work with different ideas and people. Most firms aren't pushing the boundaries in what you can do in architecture, and trying new things. School is a good opportunity to do those things. I know you do these things in undergrad too, but I don't understand how going an extra year or three where you are more fully developing your ideas and thought process is a waste of time.
...brought to you by NCARB. ;)
I just wanted to put up an alternate view.
Very useful post, pollen.
I know they are disappearing, but I am very pleased with my 5-year BArch from a state school. I was an instate student, so it wa not too expensive, and an exrta year of school was an extra year of fun as far as I was concerned.
by the way in New York you can still be licensed without any college education
And how can you forget about all the important "connections" made in school. It’s not what you know, it's who you know. thats worth the 100K
evilP - Word. I am licensed before 90% of the people I graduated with (4-year) who went on to Grad School. If I remember, you're only about a year behind me...
PPZ - They held me back because of that Detroit chick thing - I had to sit out until the new curriculum was in effect and then merge in with them - No prob - picked up the hammer and jacked roofs and trusses for 2 years and save some coin. They did me a favor really.
What I meant is that is all behind you, you have your idp out of the way, you are rgistered with NCARB and you will be completing your ARE exams withi the next year or so, right?
Friggin hot out today, huh?
I rather like the un-warrented and un-earned respect I get from random people when I flash my MArch thank you very much.
/In one of the 18 that require pro. degree
So in LA, San Fran, Chi. NYC where our densest cities are the min req. is 4 yr + IDP yet if I want to build a tree house in Oregon I need a masters......smoke another please.
Unfortunately this profession suffers greatly from the people who dont understand what education is in so many other industries. As a result we are behind the curve with technology in firms, and those of you who raced to make yourself career people (so that you could have a house or a kid or whatever the reason) tend to think that what people should be learning is how you build buildings.
Other industries do the opposite, young talent is recruited because universities can teach things that you cant afford to learn in the real world. So while you glow about having a house, and having not paid for grad school, I am happy to have had experiances that you will never get, met people that you lookforward to buying their next book and done research on things that your firm will think is cutting edge in 5-10 years.
Oh and I forgot, with a masters, I will prob be your boss sooner...
caffeinejunkie
Don't be so defensive, but I don't think you be anyone's boss any sooner as a result of your education vs. your performance. But it is good to speculte on the future and subsequently justify ythe path you've taken....but not all people agree with you. The biggest problem I've found is that alot of people are over-educated and under-common senses. (I may have beetr articulated that if I had your education) Another thing I've found is your rewards are typically a result of your performance, unless you blow yourself up the corporate ladder, in any case, that's not architecture.
Another consideration: At my current firm (snooty, published), we will not consider job applicants who only have B.A. degrees, except maybe for model maker/summer intern positions. I'm not making a value judgement, and I'm sure this isn't true for every firm, but it is worth thinking about before anyone decides to go the non-professional route.
Caffeeine junkie - Im hiring. Your tiring. Show me this magic research going on in school - composites? Yeah, 30 years behind material science majors. CAD-CAM? See Detroit circa 1976. Your professers tell you your on the cutting edge, dont believe them. I agree the studio environment is needed for our development but lets not beat the horses, know when to say when. And I dont get suckered into buying some $125 wet dream book either.
Ironically though, to call it a non-professional route is a misnomer....I am a licensed Architect and chances are you are not - so who's the freakin professional? But I do know what you meant.
I wish you the best in reaping the rewards of your higher education and Status.
Later!
Okay, I may have overstepped my bounds with the avoid the 4 year programs statement. Let me rephrase, for all you high school students, know about this before going into or atleast finishing a 4 year degree. I wouldn't have traded my 4 year degree for the world. 95% design oriented, very little science oriented figuring you can learn that when you get out.
Really, what I'm bitter about was my school's lack of education on this information. We had a 4+2 program but no one knew about it or even what it meant. We didn't think we needed to. I never even heard of a BArch until about a year out of school. All I knew was when I applied to college one program took 5 years and the other took 4. Duh, what do you think a naive high school student will do? Just last month we interviewed someone who came from that BArch program I passed up on and it sounds like I got a far better education.
So, 4 year programs, yes are still good as long as you know about the options. I was speaking strictly in licensing terms. I really should have considered design terms and development terms (but since I'm going through this process right now, it's where my head is.)
One more thing. Listening to people in acedemia telling you that anything less than a masters is inadequate, is like listening to a developer tell you there isn't a housing bubble. What do you expect to hear from those whose livelihood depend on the perpetuation of THEIR cause. You can create success from nothing, smater people tend to need less formal education as they are inherently able to learn more from life than from a path of indoctrination. To each his own, but I am comfortable with my choices, my mind, and the life ahead of me. The more I hear from the likes of condescending graduates the more I vow to not hire you. I repsect a hard-working undegrad more than an entitilist Graduate.
Are you a really bitter person, or did you just get up on the wrong side of the bed? It's great that you're "smater" (sic) and know that people can surely be judged simply by their educational background. Well done.
Also, thinking even more, I'm really all for the 4 year people and the B.A. track, otherwise I would have not taken the time to let people know about this stuff.
I learned more working during that year or 2 that a "professional" degree would have ever afforded me. And I probably would have learned exponentially more if I had, like pimp, taken up a hammer and worked in construction for 2 years.
Janosh, I think you're wrong about your firm. The reason they don't want B.A. people is because they don't want to lose someone to grad school after 1 or 2 years of working. If that B.A. person laid it on the table and said, "Look, you may be worried that I need to go back to school. I'm not going back to school - I don't need to. Here it is in plain writing, I will get licensed after working for you for (X) years." I'm sure they'll hire that person.
Ahem - I picked up the hammer pollen - all 24 oz of stiff waffle head, would you like to see it sometime?
AC4A,
I didn't say I was smarter than anyone, I implied smarter people need to be educated less and are inherently able to suceed regardless of their papers.
The fact that you couldn't extroplate meaning from a clearly written statemnt reinforces that idea. I am actually quite cheery today, and thank you for the affirmation.
Pimp I miss the old office - how is it over there? I forgot your AIM. Then I forgot my password so I cant use my old AIM - get me at evilplatypus32 now.
Evil - I think Pollen is wit cha - not against ya.
Pimp Has 11 years of construction experience prior to Architecture...
Evil, you've been in construction your whole life, right?
Literally?
Ya - I try to get out but they pull me back in. But it sweet because the world is changing so fast, the economics are getting so uncontrolable or predictable it will be impossible to be just one thing. I'm excited for the combination of the building and design profesion. And for the worriers there will be no loss of creativity when this occurs.
It's cool - AND anonymous!
Thanks for the new IM.
We miss you too - as you were the glue that bound this atmosphere of JOY!
Do you know of any Metal Truss Specialists -I know you are wood experts, but metal? We need someone to cut-off some exisitng (bizarre) metall truss and resupport at the new shorter length. (No direct references to my project, please)
maybe - chat
Pimpoo - I am a licensed architect, and I am sure you understand it when I say a BA is a non-professional route to the extent that it does not include a professional degree.
What's the difference between going to a school with an official (accredited?/licensed?) BA Architecture program, and just majoring in architecture at a liberal arts school? One where, say, you design your own major...
First off: I don't think NCARB is trying to keep the "alternative" ways toward registration a secret. In fact in the last issue of "Direct Connections" (the NCARB newsletter) they featured a guy who got his NCARB certificate through the Broadly Experienced Architect category. This guy has about 20 years of experience and the BEA process alone took him about 3 years to complete. So: no, it's not impossible, but it is not a quick or painless option.
As far as all of the states' regulations that you have listed: the summaries on NCARB's website for each state don't always tell the whole story.
You're correct that in many states there is a way to become registered without a professional degree. In my state someone without a professional degree would be unable to get reciprocal registration here unless they have been registered in a limited list of other states for at least 10 years. If they do meet that criteria they may apply for registration, and will most likely be granted registration, but there is an in-person interview involved and the entire process generally takes about 6 months. In contrast a person with an NCARB certificate needs only to fill out a form and wait about 3 weeks for their registration.
Another thing to consider: when I was getting my 4-year degree some years ago I checked the same ncarb site and read these same summaries. At that time the list of states that didn't require a professional degree was much longer, there were more states that would grant direct reciprocity to those registered in more other states, etc. The list of states that required an NCARB certificate was shorter than it is now. NCARB is pushing hard for all states to fall in line with their own vision and most states are going along with this.
Janosh - what is a profesional degree? Is there a governing body that says only this degree shall be profesional? Is that body really NCARB? Do you believe NCARB will last forever? Wont the state universities get upset someday and want the control of the degree given back to them? My super venti ultimate profesional degree is better than yours. We as a generation here, not just archi's, are in trouble when we start believing that all roads are laid out and alll the paths are in front of us simply to be strolled upon.
I hope you are sure I understand because I clearly stated "...but I know what you mean" regarding the misnomer of Professional vs. Non-Professional.
I think it's Pre-professional Degree BTW. There is something implicit in the term "non-professional" - your persuasion.
Congrats on the license - It's a long, hard road getting there, I know.
Later Evil - I'm Outta here - I'll get a hold of you sometime soon.
lilbudy-
The curriculum will be different ultimately and you wont' have certain courses that are deemed requisite for a "professional degree".
Evil- It's the NAAB (different from NCARB) that's responsible for accrediting school degree programs. So yes. there is a governing body for "accredited professional" degrees. And all universities and colleges are also accredited themselves by a third party. Specific programs such as Law, Nursing, Medicine, Engineering, etc. all have their own accrediting boards.
info
Pimp you may be the next Bill Gates of architecture, but as I pointed out before, Bill and most other sucessfull advancing industries use universities as their recruiting grounds because thats where new ideas come from.
Perhaps you dont see merit in that, as you your self pointed out, people sell what they know...but having worked in both large an small firms, one thing that I do know is that clients like to see that the people running their projects have education. So firms promote people with degrees, if for nothing else to impress the client. Most of us have worked for some ass without a clue but the diploma on the wall...that is proof enough
I think that hammer swinging experiance is great, but it also creates the you cant do that because its never been done, or thats not how the do it mentality.
Why is it that houses are still based around an antiquated technology system?
Architecture would be a much different field if more emphasis was put on R&D and less on drawing plans and sections...
You wouldnt brag about having constrction experiance but instead material science, research, etc.
and maybe then we would see buildings actually catch up with the rest of technology, from a material, fabrication, and enviromental standpoint
hammer swinging has done the opposite caffienman - its taught me the way to look at things. Materials are stuff. Stuff needs to be put together. Stuff needs to be put together properly. The inside is just an illusion.....
Why is it that the 3 people who are licensed without a professional degree are on this board? I don't understand why you all are so defensive about it though... If I were going into architecture, all this discussion would say to me is, "yes, you can get licensed without a professional degree (in most places) but it's a bigger pain in the ass."
pencrush - I think the title of the thread has something to do with the fact there are 3 undergrad licensed architects participating in it.
Just a guess. Unless you are suggesting there are Only 3 in existence and they all found eachother here....in which case, archinect is a more powerful force than it was originally thought to be.
In Illinois, you can get a four year degree, work at a firm for 4 years, and then qualify for the ARE. The alternative route would be a similar or unrelated undergrad experience, 2 years of grad school, and approx 2 years in the field before eligibility. I'm not sure which is a bigger pain in the ass. Some argue a grad will earn more in their lifetime, but a two year headstart building wealth in contrast to spending as much in the same amount of time while in grad school is a pretty big gap to close if the two subjects are getting licensed at the same time. Food for thought. All depends on the individual, I guess.
I was being a smart ass...
that's true in illinois, but it's not that way everywhere. I know I had no idea where I would be living after I graduated college. I dunno seems risky to me to go without the education.
If you do live somewhere with a relative fasttrack to licensure, fortunately or unfortunately, once you get in a job, I don't think most firms would care if you have a GED or Phd, it's all about your experience and performance.
i'd suggest checking with the states on what they require specifically, both for initial accredidation and reciprocity.
i think you'll find that grandfathering in with experience is being phased out across the country and already has been in most states.
This post applies to the State of Georgia.
For the Record, In the State of Georgia, you can get licensed with a 4yrs B.S. (Architecture concentration) degree from a NAAB school ONLY in the State of Georgia: Georgia Tech or SCAD. Or if you have a B.S. in 'Architecture Engineering Technology' from say, Southern Polytechnical Institute.
HOWEVER, there are caveats: A 4yr B.S. Arch or 4yr B.S. AET degree holder may only take the ARE after: 1) You have sent a letter Declaring your intent to take the ARE BEFORE July 1 2004. 2) Completing IDP
So, if you didn't get your 'Letter of Intent' in by July 1, 2004 (like I did), Nany, Nany BooBoo! You gotta get a 5yr B.S Arch, or an M.Arch.
Oh, I am also gonna Poo-Poo the point about reciprocity: Even if I get my 4yr degree in GA, pass the ARE & complete my IDP, I CANNOT get NCARB certification 'cause NCARB says 'Nany, Nany Boo Boo!' to me.
If you're wanting to get your license somewhere, with minimal requirements - it's Arizona. But again, NCARB will get in your way for
reciprocity.
i have been waiting for this issue to surface for the longest time.. i'm a recent graduate from the University of Pittsburgh with a B.A. in Architectural Studies. my intent was to work for a year or so before enrolling into grad school, but an interview went sour and changed my whole perspective on the 4 year degree... the Architect looked at my Portfolio and seemed impressed by sketches, but asked me a crucial question which was beyond my knowledge- it had to with Material and the calculation of stresses and that stuff. B.A. programs for the most part expose the student to theory and History with a just a touch on design and technology..therefore my question to the archinect architects...Are you ready to hire and nurture a graduate with no understanding of material and a vague grasp on design? I'm channelling my energy towards grad school for i feel like i have no chance against a BArch candidate or MArch candidate.
I am adroit at sketching, proficient in CAD, can put together physical models..am i gonna land a job if i persist?
If you know what your weaknesses are, which it seems you do, teach yourself those things.....besides, when you take your ARE exams, you will either have to relive all of those things or learn them for the first time. Most people have to do that anyway after being out of school for a few years and rotting away at some boring firm. If there is a calling for you to be an architect, then do it.
Hmm, everyone that I know from college that dropped out and just took the 4 year pretty much moved on and isn't in tradition architecture practice. I would assume that there are very few people with the 4 year degrees even trying to get licensed.
I think this entire thread, although imformative, is a dis-service to that kid in high school that wants to be an architect someday. Sure, taking that 4 year degree might get you where you ultimately want to be, but how many people get out in the "real world" and fall into real world issues and never realize their dreams? It takes 100x the effort to get registered not having that NCARB accredited degree. For most it's far easier to take some more years and loans and get it done the easy way.
Also, I got my 5 year BArch. One extra year of college?!? That isn't an overwhelming burden at all. I'd rather not get into the fight about work exp. vs. college. Both have their merits but I do think everyone with that BArch or MArch should be very proud of that degree. By no means is going all the way to the finish line a waste.
Dropped out?
Tradition?
If I remeber correctly, the tradition of Architecture involved a masters Degree and NCARB only recently. The tradition of corporate firms, maybe - but there are plenty of maverick architects out there who have spent a limited time in school. If you can afford to go to grad school do it, but don't ever condescend someone who hasn't as a result of their life circumstances or choices
A: you're talking about a program that is set up as a 5-year professional program but gives students the option of "walking away" with a 4-year degree if they so choose. It's very likely that people who take such a choice in that type of program are thinking of moving in a different direction. But the majority of 4-year programs are stand-alone programs, mostly intended to prepare students to apply to 3- or 3.5- year M.Arch programs, often with advanced standing (in other words they're the "4" component of the now-more-prevalent-than-the-B.Arch "4+2" track.) For instance, the person writing about the University of Pittsburgh's program is in a program that has no 5th year option, and no M.Arch program. The program exists solely as a 4-year program. Most of the students go on to grad school elsewhere.
thatblueprintt: sure you can get a job with that degree if you have a decent portfolio. Firms often hire students with 4-year degrees for a year or two, expecting these people will eventually leave to go back to school. I have a person in my office now who has a 4-year degree. He's considered on an equal level with another intern who just graduated with a B.Arch.
The experience that you gain working fulltime after a "4" component of a "4+2" does count toward IDP.
The long-run consequences of taking the 4-year degree, going to work, and not going back for a professional degree are much trickier, as seen in this thread.
Im in my last year of a 5 year b.arch program, there is really no option of walking away from here, but we have an M.Arch program...
if there are in fact any kids reading this considering architecture, i would HIGHLY recomend 5 year programs...
i guess it all depends on clarity... if your sure architecture is what you want to do, and you love it already, a 5 year program cant miss, and you will be in a much better position after graduation then a graduate from a 4 year program
like others have said, if you dont know for sure you want architecture, then do the 4, and get the +2 later if you decide its for you.
but 5 year programs are tricky... we had to take a couple years of structures classes and our program is not particularly well rounded... its pretty much all architecture or architecture realted classes all the time. it can be tricky because as im sure you all have experienced... we have lost more than 1/2 the studio group to a change of heart, or a lack of motivation
To clarify, everyone I know that took the 4 year degree didn't go into traditional architecture practice. I also was in a program that gave us a 4 year BS degree after 4 years and then an extra year for the BArch. It has since changed to a 4+2 program but that's just how the education is going. Yes, historically the 5 or more years for degree is relative new, but I don't think it's a bad change. In many fields the standard 4 year bachelors degree doesn't hold the same power it once did. What you could do with a 4 year business degree 20 years ago now requires a MBA, etc. The same does apply to architecture. (If schools are teaching what's necessary is a different discussion.)
I don't intend to be condescending towards anyone that just has their 4 year degree. It's just a lesser degree. My perspective is would you like your doctor to still be allowed to practice without his doctorate? It's not all that different when you consider our HSW responsibities. I don't make the rules but it's pretty well cut and dried that NCARB wants you to have that degree if you intend to be licensed. Sure there are loopholes but just by the matter of how difficult they are I think their intentions are clear.
Granted college isn't cheap but most of us take on huge debt to get our degrees. The 4 year "inexpensive" option isn't very fair to those of us that do play by the rules. Face it, life isn't fair and if you can't make it through 5+ years of college maybe becoming a licensed architect isn't in the cards for you.
Personally I think NCARB is a bit too generous. Nobody starting out in college today should have any questions about the difference between an NCARB accredited degree and something else. My opinion is that there are too many architecture schools as well. Maybe the old 4 year stand alone program (at schools without MArch programs) should just die. I hope those schools are very clear to their new students about what it takes to get licensed these days.
Sorry for the negativity but I guess I'm kinda taking this whole thing as a claim that the 4 year degrees are equal to the BArch and MArch. I don't care much for the BArch vs. MArch discussions, but to the death I'll defend the accredited degree programs. I'm proud. Sorry.
I'm proud too. Someone with a 4-year degree is required to have 4 years of practical experience in the field before becoming licensed, while a grad is able to proceed after two years of relevant experience. Some might argue that at the point of licensure, that undergrad brings with him/her more experience to the profession. Some might argue that more school is an advantage, but either way, both are required to take the same test to become an licensed architect, and after doing so, you are equal. If you plan to be a lifetime employee, then yes, it pays to have credentials to establish yourself amid similarly accredited employees.
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