My school just got some 3d printers. There use this past semester was limited to testing and a few grad studios. I know that what they were going to charge for the print was something ridiculously expensive. They had about half the costs covered by grants and it still cost each of them a couple hundred dollars. not something that sounds like a full model but perhaps pieces.

I think Keiran Timberlake architects use a 3d printer pretty extensively; at least thats the impression i got from a lecture i saw recently.

Paperless architecture, so what. Faster architecture, why is that a good thing?

I understand these things are happening, but I want to know why these things are tatamount to making good places or buildings that effect the way people live.

Just another excuse to make any form you want. Haven't we been through this already?

Someone convince me these things are good and a good way to think about/approach architecture...

Hi
The "3d printing" is an old issue. It is layer by layer some work the way, that it make light fill in the mass you want to harden --- but is this the future. These fragile small objects ,well even here 3D-H would provide a cubework and add the strength but realy, is what you expect a prototype mashin, that at high cost produce small fragile models in one specific plastic not the metal you wanted to use in your design ?
Shuldn't digital provide better , --- when do these "3d printers reach a size to print a car , if they even could ,would there be any use for a car in fragile plastic ,how much would it cost ?
-------- Guess you got my point now, then make an honest selection layer by layer as how you allway's did but develobing and realising the technology only to be used to support outdated technikes. Not the new technikes on their terms but restricting the vision to fragile small objects --- well do me an aeroplane make me a boat, not a scaled useless model but the real thing.
Eh wouldn't it then be more relevant to build it one to one , do it in a way that is not tighing new technikes in supporting the old outdated ones ?
Well 3D-H would build the plane 3D-H would make the boathull.

nah, 3D printing is fine for those little massing models you put on a site model, but I would never let that be the only model someone sees of my project. There's just not enough materiality to it. I also find a joy in the model making process that calms the mind that would be sad to lose to technology. Doesn't anyone else enjoy working with their hands anymore?

i'm totally with you on that one rationalist. i recently graduated from a school that concentratred a great deal on craft and model building that just bought a laser cutter and will soon have a milling machine. unfortunately i don't see this as a completely positive thing. at least for me, physically building models results in sort of a meditative thought process into the project.

Just a student here rationalist, but yes, I love building models. I love doing drawings by hand. I would never dream of putting another process between me and my design. I love the focus that comes with visualizing how the model will come together. However, it would be nice for massing models.

You will never do away with physical modeling or drafting. There is a method of thought that ocurs in the tactile contact. A different understanding of the space and fluidity of thought, that is just not found in the computer. While automating the modeling process will help in finish models it will never be able to replace a design/sketch model.

As an aside one of my colleges in our thesis year tried to do his entire project digitaly. It was one of his goals. Intrestingly enough he was never able to resolve the progam until he began to physically model the project.

Forget who it was, Mayne Gehry Denari or on of those guys, was asked what the most important tool they had was. In responce he held up a pencil.

Right and if you had asked a cave man he would have held up his stone adge. ---- now was the computer there at that time, are those lame computer meshes realy the future asking building two houses fighting not shaping the materials, sorry Jrocc you see this arogant aproach "my pencil" syndrom is soooooo damned sad, "not without my pencil" fact is that we need a new architecture the new jobs ,not some old pencil but a relevant vision and the true progress from those sketching methods.

Long Live the Past!!!!

Why do you all so arrogantly talk about youre dislike of new methodologies.. that pencil and trace you use was not around at one point.. arent you glad people adopted trace paper? otehrwise you would never have it to hold up as your "traditional" "honest" way to practice architecutre....

"Just another excuse to make any form you want. Haven't we been through this already?"

you dont think that people without computers make any form they want? Just because you dont know how to make a blob is no reason to act as though they arent as serious as your square... thats what weve been through already..

You guys are all dumb.

The power and allure of 3d printers, lazer cutters, and CNC machines is not that they make design take less time. The power and allure is that they shorten the feedback loop in the design process. They enable you to test your design more quickly, and more often. This allows you to refine your design that much more in any given time frame.

technology is our friend.
have any of you anti-technology people actually used any of these new tools?
i have. they're fantastic.

I'm not anti technology. If I wanted to make a model with very intricate pieces, I would not hesitate to use a laser cutter to help. I've always found massing models dull, so I'd be fine letting a 3D printer do that, or maybe pieces for some diagramattic models. But they aren't the answer to all model making. There are some things we can do better with out own two hands and some fun materials, and I find the process enjoyable.

My issue isn't with the use of new tools, it's with everyones assumptions that the new tools will make the old tools unimportant or unnecessary. Yes, technology is our friend. However, by believing technology has all of the answers you will ultimately lose sight of what this technology is ... only a tool.

Hi
And it offer fantastic new options, but why is it we must stop and reinforce when the actural great step ahead start to show. Now if that cave man had met a guy with a bronce adge , would he then responde as today's celebrated 70' iconic architects --- grap it and refuse the next guy who offered one in steel ?

Computer mesh structures are highly celebrated but this is 20 year standstill develobment. Fight the H beam that never was made to be curved m hit it with a HUGE hammer to "form" the matter -- realy why build a thin shell one house, then build another house inside to get the floors and walls --- shuldn't there be something more visionary than the first shot, are past 20 years emty metal tophats the only thing beside "my pencil" that is allowed.

Not even a new and splendid method that solve all the problems with the early polymesh organics --- not even a method that will put square rooms into an organic shape house. "not without my pencil and the dull talk about "sketching" to be the only way, is just bad exchouse not to master the technikes ,not to know how even, the drawing can show on a screen. Those of us who know also know that this "sketching sundrome" must meet relevant critic -- do they want to patent the creative process into a scene where only pencils must be used ?

i think part of the need for 'the pencil' being so important is that some of the architects that do the curvaceous forms might not be capable of understanding the software needed to create them or much software at all. gehry doesnt know catia; maybe his firm uses tons of models so that he can see and understand the forms that are being created and then he reacts to them in a medium with which he is familiar.


Personanlly i think that the process of design requires as many media as possible, all have their strengths. this past semester i tried to work more on the computer but would get stuck in the preciseness of cad. By the final review i was able to use 3d modeling and physical models to show different qualities of the project and really flesh it out. ive seen peoples projects suffer from using only one media for too long.

"the world is analog not digital"

Hi
Then how do you expect the true wonders to expand from an attitude that mean that the craftman don\t know the tool ?
Is it as things are within carpentry that the carpenter don't know the difference between a chissel and a screwdriver ? Would you judge the potential in digital from the results from someone who don't know a clue ,someone who take such a distance from the creative works, that dull somthingalike lines are what the architects can throw, replacing the true feel in the creative process with an arogant attitude using the new tools , like putting on gloves so stiff that no feel no real working with the tools with the materials , no understanding the actural process, just making it the responsibility of the engineer , --- How can such aproach ever make anything but what the engineer allready tried presaving the architect to perform ?
Please Nicoli I heard these arguments for 20 years, while compleatly different new technikes than those these lazy architects refere have surfaced, it is still the same old sad "not without my pencil" aproach.

But no one shuld be surprised when any of these 70' mind architects go thives way ------- as when they don't even knew how to handle the computer back then , how can you then expect them to know the difference between a 20 year old lame computer mesh and a 3D-H structure ?

Nicoli do you realy think that doing real visionary work with a computer is about smart words and social skills ? It is not , it is acturly much more difficult than carving it out in wood by hand or doing an "analog" sketch ---- that is nothing. But you maby expect the carpenter ,the boatsbuilder , the nomatter what craft ,to be just visioning the work he do , and then the tools can be a hammer or a saw , and you expect real results ?

How can anyone expect it to give real and visionary results, just throwing a sketch , when in any other true creative processes it is the deep understanding and the mastering of methods that make the visions.

P.s.
The main problem with the architecst pencils are that they are not connected to the manufactoring mashin. It is irasionel to project building parts with a digital aproach with a pencil. This will not make the capasity architecture with the capasity computers now avaible , the pencil in the hands of someone that have a deep understanding about the digital options on the other side, is something quite different , than the pencil in the hands of one that only master the pen.

So why are these fact digital amatures even allowed to use the tools they don't understand , would you ask a carpenter to repair your car ?
Would you ask the sculptur to chissel the painting the critic to write the book ?
How can anyone expect a true vision made with total feel the real wonders made from the only feel of some surface covering sketches.
Not only do they piss on the fact skillfull detail knowleage of their own generation, they arogantly make works that is fully visionary into the belonging of the robber ---- not only do they try to rob the fact new fantastic architecture they don't even understand what it is, and they use the exchouses I heard 20 years ago.
It's that arogant attitude that make my piss boil. -- such fagot amatures .

hey Danish Douche Bag, can you ease up the BLATANT HOMOPHOBIC posts? Can you Douche Bag?

There are nothing homophobic in my words, I just stay on topic , ask if you expect any real wonders made by someone who can't even use the tools.
There are so much difference in the new architecture that you shuld never allow someone totaly arogant towerds the very skills the tools the intire process --- How can any new and real visionary new architecture come from "not without my pencil" aproach.

oh...then you mean fagot is a bunch of sticks, or perhaps a cigarette? now everything makes sense......dick.

So this mean that you focus on one word and miss the point. Something that shuld be a very important issue, if this aproach that architects had from the start must be the measure for the wonders the new architecture will bring. That it is allright even you know that without understanding the tools to continue with an arogant aproach as if the technikes today are the same as with the first computer meshes. What would make sense in this discussion would be to stay on topic ,while if the wonders of the future will be created by people with no feel and an arogant aproach the very tools that bring it, then discussions will to become going off-topic rather than stay on topic, then "arguments" are trown down the drain aswell as the true visions in architecture.

the new tools are essential to developing more complex forms. the geometry is too difficult to model by hand.

i don't think they are necessary for more traditional buildings with straight-on rectilinear geometry.

use the right tool for the right job.
but it is dangerous to take a dim view of new technology, you risk becoming an old-timer.

Btw. there are nothin homophobic in using the word Fagot, any gay person will reconise what you mean with that word in that world , now my defination of the word do not point to any of this, when I use the word I use it when someone steal others work and at the same time never never never woll accept others to just borrow the tinyist piece of his own work. In that sense woman architects can be just as Fagot as male ones.

Now what about keeping the discussion within the subject, --- it is as important an issue as ever. Do we just allow architecture to be decided by amatures in handeling the design tools, allow the future architecture to reflect old fasion way of thinking the structure as just the outside surfaces. Have you ever thought about why Bilbao are not covered with huge sheets but only with small ones ?

Pronunciation: 'fa-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
usually disparaging : a male homosexual

Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English fagot, from Middle French
: BUNDLE: as a : a bundle of sticks b : a bundle of pieces of wrought iron to be shaped by rolling or hammering at high temperature

which definition fits?

or perhaps this is what you meant?


Faggot (slang)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

This article or section should be merged with Fag (pejorative).

For other uses of the term, see faggot

In modern American and Canadian usage faggot or fag is a generally pejorative term for gay men. The origins of the word in this sense have been clouded by mythology.

It has been frequently said that it derives from faggot in the sense of a bundle of sticks, because homosexual men were burned at the stake for sodomy and faggots were used as kindling. A variant on this is that homosexual men were themselves used as kindling. The gay liberation movement of the 1970s promoted this supposed derivation to highlight the historical oppression of homosexual men.

There is, however, no historical evidence for these supposed derivations, and the use of the term faggot for gay men goes back only to the 19th century. The fact that the word appeared in the United States, and not in Britain, where burnings for sodomy did take place until the 17th century, makes this derivation unlikely.

The more likely derivation is that faggot was originally a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because they were associated with "the gutter", where "faggot-ends" of meat were thrown by butchers. The term "faggot girls" for prostitutes is attested from the late 19th century. It is also possible that the expression "fag" meaning a cigarette-butt, something which is used and thrown in the gutter, contributed to the derivation of the word. Cigarette smoking was also at one time considered effeminate, so this may have also contributed to the word's modern use.

"Fag" was also a term used for a junior boy who acted as a servant for a senior at Eton College, near Eton, Berkshire. This practice, known as "fagging", was ended in the 1970s.

Faggot has historically been one of the most offensive terms that could be addressed to an American male; even so, in recent years it has come to be used by gay men in a defiant or self-mocking way, rather as African Americans have taken to using the word "nigger". A common example of this would be usage of the term "fag hag" to describe a woman who likes to hang out with gay men. When used as a pejorative, however, it is still a powerful term of abuse. (See Fred Phelps and his "God hates fags" campaign, for example.)

Originally confined to the United States, faggot has been spread by American popular culture to other English-speaking countries, where it has partly displaced Commonwealth English terms such as queer and poof as colloquial or abusive terms for gay men, particularly among heterosexual youth. However, due to the use of the slang term fag in British slang for cigarette, the usage is nowhere near common, with words such as poof and batty boy more common.

Hi
Beta with Fagot I mean the attitude of a mid aged homosektural man , gay people know this aunty sort of gay who been most often hiding their sexuality the most of their life caused by local moral , but still the type that overplay the Faogt role , most harmless and very often quite nice people.

But the word have other meaning, still refering the attitude and what we discuss in a discussion about paperless architecture shuld be attitude or what ?

Per Corell.... I care not to read all of your lenghthy paragraphs. However, your use of the word "Fagot" (sic) is obviously offensive to people in this community. There are underlying messages to the word that you obviously are aware of. Thankfully people take your words with a grain of salt because you obviously are a disturbed individual. Here is my beef with you... You are selfish. Period. I have no problem with "Hey all you Fancy Graphics Lovers" but you have now proven that you have the will and the time to enter other discussions and shit all over the place, turning the topic over to more drivel about your "new methods." Get over it, Per. You're not the one and only person with an original idea. You're ARROGANT. You grant yourself the license to redirect news items and discussions back to your interests and you persist with comment after comment. These discussions are relatively unmoderated, except when Paul has suspended accounts of those, like yourself, who start to turn to insults (such as "Fagot") when they feel their point is not getting across. I dare say you are well on the way to having your account shut down here. Like I have suggested before, go have fun in MySpace or something or stop incessantly bombarding this place with your lunatic rants.

And once again you did not stay on topic why is that, is the topic paperless architecture something you know nothing about , beside when you say "I care not to read all of your lenghthy paragraphs."

Then why don't you go to myspace, it seem you discuss without hearing what orhers say and even deny to read it, then no wonder why you are off-topic.

It is all right with 4 off-topic mails ,it is allright to ansver a question and then ansver "I care not to read all of your lenghthy paragraphs."

Realy what board have this turned to be.

Hi
Javier Arbona there are no paperless architecture , in the first mail is say;

"will the future lie in allowing college arch students and architects to design a model on CAD and let these machines build your model in a matter of seconds? that would surely save a lot more time for architecture students to sleep!"

Now if this is what is thought about paperless architecture youand I shuld know that this is exactly what it is not about --- new methods will not make more lazy students or architects, new methods will proberly be the greatest challance ever for architecture, but the glue stick and the process are so slow that anyone expect that paperless architecture must be the same as allway's, just done by mashines it will not, it will be a compleatly different ballgame. Then please remember that when I started all these years ago it wsa the same arogant attitude it was the "not without my pencil attitude, and how this have harmed the develobment shuld best be seen by the fact that direct link production is still just something you talk about as if it is some sci-fiction ,when fact is that paperless architecture and direct link production go hand in hand making the new architecture.
Yes I am arogant, but remember I can be that as I know the code I spended the years at the acadamy. I had my projects and I know that it is social skills that is what count, --- but you will not get the paperless architecture before you get the direct link production.
Not to realise that yield a f word ,if you can't do that compared the wirds I heard from people who havn't even understood the vision.

Javier Arbona only one person seem to be offended, and the way he react rather indicate that he just take the chance going-offtopic I repeat that I think he shuld forget as he also know the meaning I put into that word ,but he continue off-topic again and again, even your oppinion about my person are quite off topic ,future will tell beside if you even read the posts that is not provoked by some bored charecter, you would know that I am more into knowing what paperless architecture will be, know the difference in what architects acturly bore their day with and what a revolution is just around the corner. maby beta didn't know but Fagot can be used both positive and negative ---
You say there are moe clever people than I ,I do not disagrea, but what brand of cleverness are you talking about ; the ability to out of nothing create brilliant idears or the brilliant artistic expression ; now who of these do you think have the best bid on paperless architecture ?

the technology doesnt matter if you dont know anything about how a building goes together. you know the things you dont learn in school

Hi
And then vado retro how will the building then gotogether in a brand new technike , --- from my best knowleage the technology yield the technike, but isn't things today so ,that all you get with the computer in an architect application, just the same as on paper ?
Then how can an allready known and thru centuries basicly not changed technology make new technikes.
How can you expect social skills to produce that,as how it seem to work in this board where if some guy come with a bright idea he is met with mud throwing, how would you expect things to develob if your measures are that you want new things, but only if it is something you can already understand or is made by an ARCHITECT, then how can it be new -- ?

frankly per i dont want new things. i want good things.

Hi
Ofcaurse you want good things and proberly beautifull things to ?

Then how do you think the splendid obviously unique result come, will it rise as a copy will the new architecture by yieled by the thief who procalme "I stole it first I am the greatest thief" ?

Or would it show in a way quite new , as a result of hard work or as a result of commersial trends in the mouth of an actor or in the hands of an artist --- sorry but there seem to be some disturbance here.

Will the good thing be build on a foundation of the full craftship knowleage or the wish for fame. What will bring the quality outcome the genuine wish to know it all or the cry for attention. Now vado if you want anything with true value it is becaurse you share these qualities , no one ever garentied that the artist ever get the pleasure, fact is that often the artist suffer both in the process and when the result are there , then he must move on --- there are no place for fame there are no need for glory , not in the artists mind. But if you realy think you can classify arts with no snobish attitude , if you think you instantly will reconise true art ,if you know that the real vision need no words , wouldn't you then think that someone with a craftmans hands-on aproach, are rather to be the one who on the grounds of what is possible and knowing what's in the code , are bound to even reconise the right ansver.
Think about it , the arts history shuld show it allready why shuld art be a matter for academics ,did the academic rule ever bring the new the unknown the unseen -------- did it ever do that in words, can words ever replace the vision . Why is it then that there are different measures if the guy are an autodidact or an academic.

I would rather ask "Why do we need the paperless architecture".

And I would give a relevant ansver, one that is full of examples and experience about where it went wrong, about why it seem so difficult to make an architect drawing without numbers without codes. But if I did all that would happen would be that some hippie hunting rightwing guy, would know the right button to press, also without an innovative mind you would never get that paperless architecture ,and as innovation are banned and no one are allowed to "think he is anything" or "think he is better than us" , why not forget about the paperless architecture, let the chinese profit and academics rule on ,they already replaced social skills and words for artistic expression, art belong in museums and artists are the dead ones that created what is in the museums.

digital fabrication technologically can give the architect much more control over the project... just like in the old days with the master builders. Paperless architecture is already taking place for example at Frank Gehry's office. If you're interested in digital fabrication I suggest you look at this book - Architecture in the Digital Age: Design and manufacturing.
It's a good book that is about digital manufacturing, tectonics of digital design, problems with the current day contract and liabilities, etc. Anyway the technnology is supposed to speed up production from concept to realization, but it can also be used to crank out different iterations on a cad/cam or 3d printer.

Gehry also does physical models out of carpet / felt / glue guns...it's not all digital...don't fool yourself.

Hi
I thought we graduated that, ---- that fact is thet Gehry don't meneage but a sketch ,would be useless with a keyboard as from story go. Fact are that the lame 70' computer meshes outdated themself providing a no real prospect, of the real digital options.

Shuld architects without a clue be able to develob even greater options without a clue ? 3D-H allready disqualify the lame 70' compurer meshes by a meter , fact is that just describing the polygon mesh describe a troubled architectural thing. First thing to do seem to find the steel rods that must replace the 3D vectors, when the workers curve these you allready are building something else than the plans, when the emty shall are there fiddled, you need to build yet another house inside to det the floors and walls, now that shuld be efficient ?

My advise to modern architecture in terms of paperless architecture is, don't make it into a crime. Architects are bound to use the methods not develob new, see gehry he seem so alian towerds the very tool, that anyone must realise that using what you understand of a new method ,do not make you an innovative designer.

Yes the thing is here be aware you don't miss it.

I was talking to a product designer the otherday:

He is making a set of small plastic toys right now. He says it is great to have the 3d printers around since he can model 10 variations of his design in the computer, print them all, and really get a feel for their scale an proportions. The 3d prints are what he shows the client.

If the client likes them, they will vacuum form a run of them one by one to see them cheaply in multiples. Then, if less than 80,000 of them will be made, they will construct an assembly line of vacuum formers. If more than 80,000 will be produced, they will invest the $20,000 needed to make a mould for injection molding. This mould is expensive but wastes less plastic than vacuum forming, so at a certain point the cost of the mould is offset by the cost of the wasted plastic that comes with vacuum forming.

We sometimes talk about these machines as if we are the first to use them for design when infact they are much more commonly used in product and car design. In those fields tolerances need to be much more precise, and the project is rarely a one-off. I think we could learn by looking at how they have been adopted by other design processes.

Beside "where" was the work paperless in Disney new concert hall ?

Realy ; if fighting heavy steel beames to make them curve ,is to be described as digital buildings art , please.
A true smooth real paperless method shuld shape an organic shaped building, it would be so much smarter than banging heavy steel beams ,that was never ment to be bended, -- into a somewhat curve measured the best way ,cramped in a complicated computer mesh no.

Just banging heavy steel profiles with a weight of several hundred pound pr. meter is and never shuld, be described as true digital direct link production.

Belive me, I had to make my own unfolding software ,my own everything from 3D morphing to 3D router drivers ,belive me Gethy been a stop pile for develobing further into a very interesting aspect of the fantastic new tools.

Stealing the intelectural property from those with the capasity just make architecture into a crime -------- in this discussion I havn't met one single clue ,that anyone even can see the options that become avaible as soon as real new production methods develob ; na everyone talk about fame architects even everyone know they don't have a clue. They are the minds behind the master architect aproach , ---- 3D-H will provide. The better structures the honest aproach. Lame meshes that when the rods are curved provide no model for unfolded surfaces, architecture chained into providing concert halls, museums and Icons --- deassemble the master architect make digital free to solve the real problems, those that deal with fact not fame.

so basically all i have to do is go to northeast south dakota technical community college get my cnc certificate and i will be able to design buildings alright.

I wish this site had an ignore function.

necessity is the mom of invention

vado if that can\t stop you ,then yes. Javier it can be but there are also the need for beauty beside fact is, that some people simply can\t do anything else. For those the creative ability is a pest , a pest . True necessity are a reson if you must, if you can\t let be, if this is the only thing you can.
jasoncross why don\t you just stay in usenet. Are you just another Fagot ,bored in your useal rightwing group, now exersising your hippie hate .
Javier emagine how nice a place the world would be, if we could be without these Fagot creativity killers --- those who can\t bare that we don\t all the time talk about the filth in their mind. Why is it they allway\s are attracted to sites like this , just check jasoncross\s Fagot weed --- totaly off-topic , still guess what juzy joy he would swollow if someone backed him up, and emagine what splendid fora this could be, case Fagot usenet rightwings could find another place when bored.

k. . .so...

paperless architecture anyone?

you know Per, many people have brought up the fact that they find your use of the term "faggot" insulting (as do I). I really think you should stop using it out of respect for other people. The majority of users of this site are from the US, and here (and I'm going to presume its not just here, but I can't speak for other countries) its a highly insulting term. If this was the type of forum that banned people for offensive language (which its not, and I'm cool with that) I'm sure your language would receive some sort of reprimand from an admin.

Per, what's this right-wing-usenet-faggots-hippie-haters rant all about? where are our beloved 3DH crazy ramblings, and the ugly fancy-graphics of sinking boats and cardboard cathedrals?

man, you're not fun anymore...



save your energies for the legendary 'Hi, FG Lovers' thread, will you?.. we have already 923, we need you to vomit more stuff there, just a hundred posts more of nonsense please, let's hit the four-digit magic number...