het- all this fuss and pub is confirmation of architectual/architect importance...if people did'nt give a damn about arch they would have put up the 1st set of boring designs...generating no pub.
this just shows 3 things...media whores use every oppertunity availiable, people care about ground zero and what goes there, childs/liebskind design sucked like all comprimised collaborations
this is not confirmation that the public disrespects architects
Tommy: Doesn't it make you proud to be Scottish?
Mark "Rent-boy" Renton: It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched miserable servile pathetic trash that was ever shat on civilization. Some people hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to get colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a shite state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!
replace 'scottish' with 'architect', and 'british/wankers' with 'the rest of the world/idiots', and there's what it is.
I'm not sure I share your reasoning (CR). It's not an issue of caring or not, it's a matter of what the general public chooses to care about. Does tha mass consumption of McDonald's hamburgers indicate a general appreciation of cuisine? Does the election of Bush represent confidence in the "democratic process"? The problem is that people just want the crap they're used to, and people like The Donald know just how to turn a dime off of such uninformed desires by playing off of pseudo-democratic sentiment and blatant stupidity.
caleb, i completely agree on your 3 things.
but the upsetting part that leads to worrying about the public perception of architects is that we have here a very public and powerful person calling architects eggheads. nevermind that he's an idiot who's just drumming up publicity for himself. to joe q public, there's no distinction between libeskind/childs and the rest of architects in general. we're all out of touch egg heads.
that's not how i think we should be seen.
q, don't hold it against anyone because they aren't as "enlightened" as u seem to think u are. burgers and bush have nothing to do with this as your cynical and casual connections try to show.
not architects.....danial leibskind...he called dl the egghead not u our me or anyone here...he did'nt call calatrava a an egghead and his building is still under way on site
Why accuse me of vanity and false-enlightment? I actually do think that burgers and Bush and Mega-developers with TV shows and trophy brides stem from a similar set of ideals, values and ideology-mechanisms. I'm not trying to act better than it all- but I don't think the connections are that much of a reach...
Caleb, I am afraid that you are coming across as kind of naive when it comes how easily the public is swayed by individual stories in the media. Look at the Terry Schiavo case for example. They are individual, surrogate cases that take the place of individual experience... they mold public perception on issues.
To most people, Daniel Libeskind was chosen because he must be "the best architect". He is representing our profession and our ideals -- and he is getting trampled by a guy claiming that his tower is "not appropriate for freedom".
trump said "The design for the Freedom Tower is an egghead design, designed by an egghead"... libeskind is not mentioned. yeah, we know who he's talking about, but the public doesn't. how many average people would be able to tell you the names of the architects involved with the wtc? even most architects don't know how to spell libeskind's last name correctly! small issue, i know, but it shows you something. to the public, every architect represents all architects to at least some significant degree, and much more so in the case of the wtc project. the public (rightfully so) assumes that it would be the best of the profession involved in the project. if the best is an egghead... what does that say to common person about architects?
"In the slang of the United States, egghead was an anti-intellectual epithet, ***directed at people considered too out-of-touch with ordinary people and too lacking in realism, common sense, virility, etc. on account of their intellectual interests***. The term egghead reached its peak currency during the 1950s, when vice-presidential candidate Richard Nixon used it against Democrat Presidential nominee Adlai Stevenson. It is now rarely used, having been replaced in U.S. politics by other anti-intellectual epithets such as liberal elite, and socially by terms such as nerd and geek."
It is clearly an attack on all of us -- on our line of thinking -- of our profession in general.
the donald is employing an architect for his proposal isn't he ?
so i think the hair dude knows there are professinals that provide design services upon a clients requirement,
I think he is going straight against silverstein & co. or someone specifically he considers an egghead, not architects in general.
tis a very agressive statement, and it goes to show the kind of person he is, i call to ignore him.
i have to agree with j-turn's sentiments about "seriously complicated emotions around the whole ground zero question?"
i really have no idea what should be on that site, but i feel like everyone is moving too quickly to get something built for reasons that are simply shallow. everything seems to be motivated by either nostalgia, insurance money, or opportunistic grabs attempt at personal glory. what a shame it would be to have a bunch of empty offices (designed by default) sitting on that site.
it has been less than four years since the towers fell.
nearly three thousand people died on that site.
although the idea fo moving the united nations there is the best suggestion that i have heard yet i really feel that it might be better to collectively exercise some patience at ground zero and then build what should be there, when and if that time comes.
He seems to be on good terms with silverstein, as stated in the article. he is a pompous, arrogant bastard who we could all take a lesson from. if we did business like he did business, architects would make more money that movie stars. I dont think he has any real interest in seeing anything through here, he hasnt even contacted the appropriate agents in order to start the ball rolling.
Also, i believe he doesnt have the intellectual ability to single out anyone. He spouts off at the mouth too much to be taken seriously. he doesnt see this as a design opportunity, he sees it as a business op, one of which has lost a shit load of money.
agreed, ignore him, its been 15 minutes (of fame) since his wedding, so he is looking to stir up a few more pots...
eric, I am afraid that you are coming across as kind of ALARMIST when it comes to how easily the public is swayed by individual stories in the media. Look at the Terry Schiavo case for example. They are individual, surrogate cases that take the place of individual experience... they mold public perception on issues"..... and 70 percent of americans disagreed with the republicans actions. so that was a bad example...
i think u are taking this way too personal and buying into this perception of america being run by the media....it is a bad design...why b/c it is a bad collaboration between a talanted avante-garde and a coorperate ass kisser...they are like water and oil they don't mix and the design shows...now if liebskind was given the entire show as a singular vision...like how he won the comp....we might not be having this conversation.
but what kind of damage would occure if this is built...knowing full well the entire story and the mess it has been since childs came aboard, that it is bad and comprimised design...the public hates it..or lets say they just don't care....would'nt that do more lasting and permanent damage...to have such a high profile job turn so lack luster.
u are also forgetting the 24 hr news cycle...things blow over as soon as ms hilton does something to garner attention. this is not a big deal. trump won't get his built but he will take the fall for pataki and save us from a rather permanent eye-sore.
And I don't believe that America is run by the media. I believe that certain people know how to work the media to gain power and profit -- case in point.
Caleb, I agree with much of what you are saying. But there is a BIG picture... and your missing it (or ignoring it)
Oh my god, you guys! WTF?!?! I go into a marketing meeting and I come out and somehow Trump has decided to rebuild the Trade towers!?!? Oh, well OK THEN.....
This is all just madness. It's really upsetting. I'm also getting really offended when people starting using this absolute phrase:
"If you don't ________, then the terrorists win"
Fuck the terrorists! We're already winning because I'm sitting here posting an indignant diatribe about architecture versus being in a clay hut under a black veil being beaten by my husband!
Goddammit! The only thing on this page that I've seen that's good enough for the WTC site is that gorgeous FLW rendering....hey, while we're all just building willy nilly, why don't we get the guy who just bought Manchester United to submit a proposal?!?!
Shit! Who does Trump think he is just deciding for all of us?!?
Sometimes it just feels good to curse.
PS. Thanks heterarchy for the "Trainspotting" post, it made my thus far abysmal afternoon.
caleb: i'm right there with you on most of what you said, esp. paragraph 2. and maybe we are blowing this out of proportion, but if you let too many insignificant things slide without making a big deal of them, then eventually they amount to something too big to handle.
anyway, it makes for a good discussion. :)
but the donald is insulting libeskind, the one person involved who is least deserving of being the scapegoat for what has become a terrible mess. and the one person involved who is most closely tied to the title 'architect'.
i agree, architects definitely need to become better with their pr. we'll go extinct if we don't. which is part of this whole thread.. if we don't publicly (and in a media savvy way) stick up for ourselves and our peers against the donald's of the world, we'll find ourselves completely castrated. pardon the male-oriented phrase.. :)
i'm trying to think of a better way architects can get their ideas out that will reach the avg. person, right now the template reads: write some book to express your architectual manifesto, will only be read by other architects.
i suggest an architect reality tv show. take average people who complain about architects, then put them in a firm and see how they do walking a mile in the shoes..
i can't believe i just suggested creating ANOTHER reality tv show! even if i was half-joking, it still tastes bad. :)
note - i just checked cnn, and there is a quick pole regarding "trump's" design for ground zero. asking whether "he's hired" or "he's fired"... and very very very very very very sadly, the results are currently dead even!!!
there's the proof that this issue isn't being completely overblown.
ah, if other architects actually read architectural manifestoes...
Bruno Taut's demand # 5 of 6, 1919:
"Prevention of prematurely planned war memorials and immediate cessation of work on the war museums proposed for Berlin and the Reich".
no comment.
(Conrads, p.45)
Go vote on that cnn poll! Right now, it's 52% hired, 48% fired. This is ridiculous. People who know something about architecture should participate, so go forth and fire away!
The Donald is just trying to blow smoke up everybody's ass. His opinion doesnt count. This is a old salesman trick, to give Silversten a kick in the butt. He feels left out and needs to vent.
Damn. Is there a chance that the original architects of the World Trade Center could sue them for imitating the likeness of their design? We can switch the focus of the debate. Architects originally designed those (now) beloved towers, not Trump! It is our creativity that made them, not Trump's! We can switch the media debate to "intellectual property". We can take back the design, and our balls (sorry) in the process.
Its just a marketing ploy to get his name out there. Like Golden Palace paying streakers and buyin toast with the vigin marys image. Make a big stink and get your name in the headlines for a fraction of the cost that a pulicist or marketing company would charge and probably with a greater exposure.
And just out of curiosity when is th last time he(Trump) had a project that didnt tank and go bankrupt?
if they actually managed to rebuild WTC as it was, the thing that really gets me is, who the hell would want to work there? the buildings weren't that pleasant to begin with, they now have a pretty obvious history of being attacked, and how could you not feel like a sitting duck if your office was on the 85th floor?
Moment of Truth for Architects
it is time. firmitas utilitas venustas
(click on image for CNN report)
bad pub is better then no pub ...
"it doesn't involve turning the nation against architects"? were are u getting this?
This is just the beginning. From the CNN article:
"Trump mentioned that he will also draw attention to the proposal during this week's live broadcast of his highly rated TV show, "The Apprentice."
whatever - its all ego. he doesn't control the land, he doesn't control the money ...
were was the outcry when the public bashed the very 1st try at this...which led to the current debacle and starchitect comp.
after finnally finding our way thru liebskinds subliminal b.s. we can see it for what it is and has become...a mess
i doubt trump's vision will get built but it is a sobering reminder of what it was
I am sure Libeskind now misses the days when his media nemesis was Rafael Vinoly.
awful. simply terrible.
and bad pub is NOT better than no pub. it's the worst possible scenario. no one reads anything about architects ever unless we're being ridiculed.
and as proven in erich's post, with all the problems this is creating, it's merely a publicity stunt for that supreme jack hole trump.
arg. i'm friggin fuming here.
...isn't it obvious that the world is ruled by idiots? Then again, if they're idiots- we're all helpless sub-idiots!
het- all this fuss and pub is confirmation of architectual/architect importance...if people did'nt give a damn about arch they would have put up the 1st set of boring designs...generating no pub.
this just shows 3 things...media whores use every oppertunity availiable, people care about ground zero and what goes there, childs/liebskind design sucked like all comprimised collaborations
this is not confirmation that the public disrespects architects
yes. what was the line in trainspotting?
Tommy: Doesn't it make you proud to be Scottish?
Mark "Rent-boy" Renton: It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched miserable servile pathetic trash that was ever shat on civilization. Some people hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to get colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a shite state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!
replace 'scottish' with 'architect', and 'british/wankers' with 'the rest of the world/idiots', and there's what it is.
I'm not sure I share your reasoning (CR). It's not an issue of caring or not, it's a matter of what the general public chooses to care about. Does tha mass consumption of McDonald's hamburgers indicate a general appreciation of cuisine? Does the election of Bush represent confidence in the "democratic process"? The problem is that people just want the crap they're used to, and people like The Donald know just how to turn a dime off of such uninformed desires by playing off of pseudo-democratic sentiment and blatant stupidity.
Well said qualudes!
caleb, i completely agree on your 3 things.
but the upsetting part that leads to worrying about the public perception of architects is that we have here a very public and powerful person calling architects eggheads. nevermind that he's an idiot who's just drumming up publicity for himself. to joe q public, there's no distinction between libeskind/childs and the rest of architects in general. we're all out of touch egg heads.
that's not how i think we should be seen.
q, don't hold it against anyone because they aren't as "enlightened" as u seem to think u are. burgers and bush have nothing to do with this as your cynical and casual connections try to show.
not architects.....danial leibskind...he called dl the egghead not u our me or anyone here...he did'nt call calatrava a an egghead and his building is still under way on site
Why accuse me of vanity and false-enlightment? I actually do think that burgers and Bush and Mega-developers with TV shows and trophy brides stem from a similar set of ideals, values and ideology-mechanisms. I'm not trying to act better than it all- but I don't think the connections are that much of a reach...
Caleb, I am afraid that you are coming across as kind of naive when it comes how easily the public is swayed by individual stories in the media. Look at the Terry Schiavo case for example. They are individual, surrogate cases that take the place of individual experience... they mold public perception on issues.
To most people, Daniel Libeskind was chosen because he must be "the best architect". He is representing our profession and our ideals -- and he is getting trampled by a guy claiming that his tower is "not appropriate for freedom".
trump said "The design for the Freedom Tower is an egghead design, designed by an egghead"... libeskind is not mentioned. yeah, we know who he's talking about, but the public doesn't. how many average people would be able to tell you the names of the architects involved with the wtc? even most architects don't know how to spell libeskind's last name correctly! small issue, i know, but it shows you something. to the public, every architect represents all architects to at least some significant degree, and much more so in the case of the wtc project. the public (rightfully so) assumes that it would be the best of the profession involved in the project. if the best is an egghead... what does that say to common person about architects?
hahahhaaa!! I just saw John's Daily Dose site on CNN's Inside the blogs!!! They were looking at a bunch of blogs looking at Donald. Incredible.
From Wikipedia.com, the definition of egghead:
"In the slang of the United States, egghead was an anti-intellectual epithet, ***directed at people considered too out-of-touch with ordinary people and too lacking in realism, common sense, virility, etc. on account of their intellectual interests***. The term egghead reached its peak currency during the 1950s, when vice-presidential candidate Richard Nixon used it against Democrat Presidential nominee Adlai Stevenson. It is now rarely used, having been replaced in U.S. politics by other anti-intellectual epithets such as liberal elite, and socially by terms such as nerd and geek."
It is clearly an attack on all of us -- on our line of thinking -- of our profession in general.
the donald is employing an architect for his proposal isn't he ?
so i think the hair dude knows there are professinals that provide design services upon a clients requirement,
I think he is going straight against silverstein & co. or someone specifically he considers an egghead, not architects in general.
tis a very agressive statement, and it goes to show the kind of person he is, i call to ignore him.
hi
i have to agree with j-turn's sentiments about "seriously complicated emotions around the whole ground zero question?"
i really have no idea what should be on that site, but i feel like everyone is moving too quickly to get something built for reasons that are simply shallow. everything seems to be motivated by either nostalgia, insurance money, or opportunistic grabs attempt at personal glory. what a shame it would be to have a bunch of empty offices (designed by default) sitting on that site.
it has been less than four years since the towers fell.
nearly three thousand people died on that site.
although the idea fo moving the united nations there is the best suggestion that i have heard yet i really feel that it might be better to collectively exercise some patience at ground zero and then build what should be there, when and if that time comes.
mau: we know exactly who the duck's criticizing, but that isn't the issue. the issue is whether or not the public knows who he's criticizing.
He seems to be on good terms with silverstein, as stated in the article. he is a pompous, arrogant bastard who we could all take a lesson from. if we did business like he did business, architects would make more money that movie stars. I dont think he has any real interest in seeing anything through here, he hasnt even contacted the appropriate agents in order to start the ball rolling.
Also, i believe he doesnt have the intellectual ability to single out anyone. He spouts off at the mouth too much to be taken seriously. he doesnt see this as a design opportunity, he sees it as a business op, one of which has lost a shit load of money.
agreed, ignore him, its been 15 minutes (of fame) since his wedding, so he is looking to stir up a few more pots...
eric, I am afraid that you are coming across as kind of ALARMIST when it comes to how easily the public is swayed by individual stories in the media. Look at the Terry Schiavo case for example. They are individual, surrogate cases that take the place of individual experience... they mold public perception on issues"..... and 70 percent of americans disagreed with the republicans actions. so that was a bad example...
i think u are taking this way too personal and buying into this perception of america being run by the media....it is a bad design...why b/c it is a bad collaboration between a talanted avante-garde and a coorperate ass kisser...they are like water and oil they don't mix and the design shows...now if liebskind was given the entire show as a singular vision...like how he won the comp....we might not be having this conversation.
but what kind of damage would occure if this is built...knowing full well the entire story and the mess it has been since childs came aboard, that it is bad and comprimised design...the public hates it..or lets say they just don't care....would'nt that do more lasting and permanent damage...to have such a high profile job turn so lack luster.
u are also forgetting the 24 hr news cycle...things blow over as soon as ms hilton does something to garner attention. this is not a big deal. trump won't get his built but he will take the fall for pataki and save us from a rather permanent eye-sore.
And I don't believe that America is run by the media. I believe that certain people know how to work the media to gain power and profit -- case in point.
Caleb, I agree with much of what you are saying. But there is a BIG picture... and your missing it (or ignoring it)
i'm looking, i really am, know it must be over my head?
why don't architects know how to work the media?
Oh my god, you guys! WTF?!?! I go into a marketing meeting and I come out and somehow Trump has decided to rebuild the Trade towers!?!? Oh, well OK THEN.....
This is all just madness. It's really upsetting. I'm also getting really offended when people starting using this absolute phrase:
"If you don't ________, then the terrorists win"
Fuck the terrorists! We're already winning because I'm sitting here posting an indignant diatribe about architecture versus being in a clay hut under a black veil being beaten by my husband!
Goddammit! The only thing on this page that I've seen that's good enough for the WTC site is that gorgeous FLW rendering....hey, while we're all just building willy nilly, why don't we get the guy who just bought Manchester United to submit a proposal?!?!
Shit! Who does Trump think he is just deciding for all of us?!?
Sometimes it just feels good to curse.
PS. Thanks heterarchy for the "Trainspotting" post, it made my thus far abysmal afternoon.
Caleb, that is a damn good question. If anything comes out of this thread it should be that.
caleb: i'm right there with you on most of what you said, esp. paragraph 2. and maybe we are blowing this out of proportion, but if you let too many insignificant things slide without making a big deal of them, then eventually they amount to something too big to handle.
anyway, it makes for a good discussion. :)
but the donald is insulting libeskind, the one person involved who is least deserving of being the scapegoat for what has become a terrible mess. and the one person involved who is most closely tied to the title 'architect'.
i agree, architects definitely need to become better with their pr. we'll go extinct if we don't. which is part of this whole thread.. if we don't publicly (and in a media savvy way) stick up for ourselves and our peers against the donald's of the world, we'll find ourselves completely castrated. pardon the male-oriented phrase.. :)
your welcome wonderk. :)
i'm trying to think of a better way architects can get their ideas out that will reach the avg. person, right now the template reads: write some book to express your architectual manifesto, will only be read by other architects.
yep.
i suggest an architect reality tv show. take average people who complain about architects, then put them in a firm and see how they do walking a mile in the shoes..
i can't believe i just suggested creating ANOTHER reality tv show! even if i was half-joking, it still tastes bad. :)
note - i just checked cnn, and there is a quick pole regarding "trump's" design for ground zero. asking whether "he's hired" or "he's fired"... and very very very very very very sadly, the results are currently dead even!!!
there's the proof that this issue isn't being completely overblown.
i feel sick...
just get paris hilton to intern in an archi office. now that's hot.
ah, if other architects actually read architectural manifestoes...
Bruno Taut's demand # 5 of 6, 1919:
"Prevention of prematurely planned war memorials and immediate cessation of work on the war museums proposed for Berlin and the Reich".
no comment.
(Conrads, p.45)
Go vote on that cnn poll! Right now, it's 52% hired, 48% fired. This is ridiculous. People who know something about architecture should participate, so go forth and fire away!
http://www.cnn.com/
hells yes rationalist! :)
wait, it's up to 52 for hired?!?!?!?!?!!!!!
how could this happen?
i can't speak for all architects, but maybe the duck is right, i may be COMPLETELY out of touch with reality and the general public. :(
The Donald is just trying to blow smoke up everybody's ass. His opinion doesnt count. This is a old salesman trick, to give Silversten a kick in the butt. He feels left out and needs to vent.
thanks Amandine! That's a great find.
probably the most imature thing ever, but I have to:
danny boy
tower design
trump dump
I promise to try and never do that again . . . promise to try.
i just voted, it's 53% hired now...game over man...game over.
look again, it is at 52%
Damn. Is there a chance that the original architects of the World Trade Center could sue them for imitating the likeness of their design? We can switch the focus of the debate. Architects originally designed those (now) beloved towers, not Trump! It is our creativity that made them, not Trump's! We can switch the media debate to "intellectual property". We can take back the design, and our balls (sorry) in the process.
Its just a marketing ploy to get his name out there. Like Golden Palace paying streakers and buyin toast with the vigin marys image. Make a big stink and get your name in the headlines for a fraction of the cost that a pulicist or marketing company would charge and probably with a greater exposure.
And just out of curiosity when is th last time he(Trump) had a project that didnt tank and go bankrupt?
wisof> bravo.....anything with that damn dog puppet involved is funny.
it's down to 51%. call your relatives.
this online voting takes me right back to my war-protest days....
actually i like ur idea ericharch
it's tied 50% to 50%
if they actually managed to rebuild WTC as it was, the thing that really gets me is, who the hell would want to work there? the buildings weren't that pleasant to begin with, they now have a pretty obvious history of being attacked, and how could you not feel like a sitting duck if your office was on the 85th floor?
Puddles: as long as they build skyscraper, people who use that building will feel "sitting duck," no matter how the building looks. Don't you think?
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