build the towers twice as high as original, cut the rents in half, and mix commercial and residential.
you're telling me you wouldn't risk your life for a deal like that? you risk it everyday anywhere in NYC, you're the #1 target in a nuclear war.
architects used to be the carriers of symbolism that cultures held as valuable, and would pay a price for, or have 10,000 slaves sweat for.
think of the downfall of architects in the same way as you think of the downfall of religion.
neoclassicism, postmodernism, deconstructivism, etc., are a natural progression to the arbitraryism we have today. if nothing 'means' anything, why would the architect be anything other than a tool for optimum utility? call a developer instead. call a green builder, he'll save you some watts.
"efficiency" masquerading as altruism...why build two quality homes for the poor when you could build ten at crap quality? at least they'll have homes.
"efficiency" as hedonism (lazy mind); short-term profit, trend remodel,
personal playhouses for the rich, spectacle-bilbao-effect city planning, sparkly rendering, "the money-shot", weird hair
a culture's loss of spirituality is filled with efficiency, dishonesty (an infinity of reflections), and knowledge (at the expense of wisdom).
developers give us efficient bldgs with no souls, architects give us pretty buildings with no souls. both reflecting a soul-less society. this is not a criticism, but a reality. i myself like the state of civilization, as the mass void of meaning allows me to fill my existence with meaning to a level I'm capable of holding/experiencing. unfortunately, the great masses, that constant percentage of well-meaning and malicious idiots that exist, they don't handle the freedom that the loss of blind, mysterious spirituality can bring to us, the few.
but seriously, libeskind's glasses only add to the 'egghead' characterization. get some new glasses dude.
If ironically Trump's bid really gets built it will reflect the pure naive American ego. The Twin Towers was the icon of the American ego, the rebuilt of the Twin Towers will not only be the icon of the ego but also the icon of the new post-911 American arrogance.
Many of the people who voted in the CNN poll are probably not living in New York City. Most people have only watched what happened through TV, so it's easy for them to choose the 'protect American ego option'.
So passively the media makes a lot of people think that they are witnesses - but they are not. With only imagery but no pain, the anaesthetic unbalances grief and anger. The true witnesses become minority. We are left with a mass of angry psuedowitnesses.
Back to architecture, I remembered an article written by Rem in Wired magazine called 'Delirious No More', after reading his Delirious New York. He briefly continued his DNY story in the age after the Corbu invasion, skimming through the rise of the Twin Towers and its demise.
Obviously, Koolhaas wasn't a big fan of Libeskind's design. (Was he even in one of the 7 teams?) He was then later shortlisted for the Cultural Museum design but he didnt get picked. I wonder if he even wants to design anything anyway.
At the end of the essay, he said, "New York will be marked by a massive representation of hurt that projects only the overbearing self-pity of the powerful. Instead of the confident beginning of the next chapter, it captures the stumped fundamentalism of the superpower. Call it closure."
Originally with the entry of Trump, it sounds kind of good like the drama of the skyscraper race of Empire State versus Chrysler. But no, there is a difference: New York has run out of resources. So instead of a competition of talents in built reality, it becomes a competition of politics and ego at the back of the table. With the entry of Trump, the conflict between developers and architects and the individuals become worse than ever. Don't even think another Rockefeller Center.
nicomachean- 'developers give us efficient bldgs with no souls, architects give us pretty buildings with no souls. both reflecting a soul-less society. this is not a criticism, but a reality. i myself like the state of civilization, as the mass void of meaning allows me to fill my existence with meaning to a level I'm capable of holding/experiencing'
So you are able to fullfill your potential to level which reflects the reality of a soul-less society?
no, i'm saying that the state of civilization dictates that the great majority of people are so distracted by the level of abstraction dictated by that civilization that their system of valuing is too weak to process it all.
the 'few' are the small percentage, probably including yourself, that are able to be see through the abstraction and reflections, because our system of valuing is at a much more advanced level.
Here. Check this out from Larry King Live (M. Trump is Melania, his wife):
KING: Do you look forward to possibly being a father?
D. TRUMP: I think it's great. Look, Larry, the way I look at it, there's nothing like a good marriage and there's nothing like having children. I have four great children. If you have the money, having children is great.
Now, I know Melania. I'm not going to be doing the diapers. I'm not going to be making the food. I may never even see the kids.
She will be an unbelievable mother. I'll be a good father.
KING: How do you know it?
D. TRUMP: Her? She'll be an amazing mother. I have no doubt about that. She'll be an amazing mother.
KING: Have you been back to Slovenia?
M. TRUMP: I've been to Slovenia two years ago.
KING: Did you go?
D. TRUMP: Yes, I was there about 15 minutes.
(LAUGHTER)
A beautiful country. I landed and said: Hi, Mom; Hi, Dad; bye.
ericharch: I bet 90% of the voters aren't from New York, or even from America, with the attitude of 'hey terrorists it's our middle finger and we dont care those newyorkers anyway'. like an evil lawyer dad who forces an artist son to study law just to save his face..
With the announcement of the Cultural Center, the puzzle pieces of the master plan are getting more and more complete. Who in the know would care about Trump anyway?
AMERICAN STARCHITECT--ok heres what they should do with this: scrap everything so far. too eggheady. hold a new competition ala american idle. go through a process of creating a new star architect. have them pitch ideas in the prelim have merciless judges(sound familiar?) destroy egos left and right. feed a few of the talented and beautiful and unique through to design america's next great replacement to the world trade center!!!and let the fine folks of america usa decide what should be built. you get a new building, super ratings, the terrorists lose again to american ingenuity and hootspa and best of all we getnew egghead starchitect that we all can work for for slave wages.
vado, I commend your idea, it's a gem. It would be horribly embarrassing and humiliating for all involved and therefore would make great television. Run with it....
Great idea Vado. Seriously, this is what it should be... 1 architect's complete vision for the site. Not a compromise between multiple organizations, corporations, politicians, families and architects, and certainly not an empty replica of what used to be there. And it would be great to see architecture get such play in the media.
Is anyone else taking Vado's idea as seriously as I am?
I think Trump is right. They should rebuild them, as was, only a little taller.
And fitted with an exterior liquid crystal display system that could change color to help camouflage the the buildings.
And missles in all the windows.
And the piece de resistance... Roof top pools to hold the sharks with frikkin' laser beams on their heads. [That's why they've got the top of the White House blanked out on Google Maps.]
"the developer who doesn't give a shite about anyone or anything but THEIR money?"
their money is what gives you a job in the first place. Go make your own 100 million and build your monument to yourself, then you can be taken seriously.
all this architecture profession bickering aside, i am a bit more concerned about the how this may affect the international community's view of this debauched american society. someone, trump or whoever, having the nerve to propose something like this only reinforces the conservative, traditionalist, non-progressive thought process found all over the face of our american policy. it's a ridiculous notion and it doesn't shine well upon our standing in a global community.
It's great that Trump has an idea for the Trade Center site. Here's the blindingly clear issue though...He doesn't hold the development rights, Larry Silverstein does and he's very happy with the Libeskin/Childs design.
Poor Donald...A successful TV show and he thinks he can go anywhere.
Architecturally, the new Towers should be a reflection of current design practice, not a recreation of work from the 1970's.
I am confident they won't get built. There would be so many arguments saying how people don't want big steel ghosts there reminding them, every minute, of the horrible site from 911.
That's simple enough logic, although I prefer the 'let's make something visionary, something that suggests a bright future, an architectural masterpiece'. But no one buys that.
sween: actually, Silverstein was never very happy with Daniel Libeskind and he really never wanted that spire at the top which was left from his design. Also, regarding Trump and how the TV Show makes him think he can do anything and go anywhere, it's the other way around. He does this stuff in the service of the sellable TV persona. The whole timing of that Twin Tower press conference and the subsequent media coverage was perfect advertisement for his live-audience final two nights later, as greg.org has pointed out. Shrewd but brilliant.
vado... but the real question for American Starchitect is, how on earth could we narrow the panel of judges to a reasonable number? There are just so many great, and horrible, critics out there that could make this thing HILARIOUS.
Donald trump may have very bad taste, but I would rather work in a modern clean trump office building than an ugly, poorly maintained architecture office.
Where's AnnRyand when we need her? This is truely another book in the making and then the Trumpster will be making it a primetime movie about him beating up on egghead dannyhowardroarkliebskind, ripping up his drawings and kicking over his models and throwing media press parties to trump all his ideas out to the press to oooh and ahhhh over.
I say we write the script right here and now....Ivanna? She will make great eye candy as the woman who knows how to design anything, and uses donald as her bank account.
Apprentice?............looks those who were fired were brought back to design this one.
Moment of Truth for Architects
i agree fulcrum. they are going to have a hell of a time renting that space.
you're telling me you wouldn't risk your life for a deal like that? you risk it everyday anywhere in NYC, you're the #1 target in a nuclear war.
architects used to be the carriers of symbolism that cultures held as valuable, and would pay a price for, or have 10,000 slaves sweat for.
think of the downfall of architects in the same way as you think of the downfall of religion.
neoclassicism, postmodernism, deconstructivism, etc., are a natural progression to the arbitraryism we have today. if nothing 'means' anything, why would the architect be anything other than a tool for optimum utility? call a developer instead. call a green builder, he'll save you some watts.
"efficiency" masquerading as altruism...why build two quality homes for the poor when you could build ten at crap quality? at least they'll have homes.
"efficiency" as hedonism (lazy mind); short-term profit, trend remodel,
personal playhouses for the rich, spectacle-bilbao-effect city planning, sparkly rendering, "the money-shot", weird hair
a culture's loss of spirituality is filled with efficiency, dishonesty (an infinity of reflections), and knowledge (at the expense of wisdom).
developers give us efficient bldgs with no souls, architects give us pretty buildings with no souls. both reflecting a soul-less society. this is not a criticism, but a reality. i myself like the state of civilization, as the mass void of meaning allows me to fill my existence with meaning to a level I'm capable of holding/experiencing. unfortunately, the great masses, that constant percentage of well-meaning and malicious idiots that exist, they don't handle the freedom that the loss of blind, mysterious spirituality can bring to us, the few.
but seriously, libeskind's glasses only add to the 'egghead' characterization. get some new glasses dude.
If ironically Trump's bid really gets built it will reflect the pure naive American ego. The Twin Towers was the icon of the American ego, the rebuilt of the Twin Towers will not only be the icon of the ego but also the icon of the new post-911 American arrogance.
Many of the people who voted in the CNN poll are probably not living in New York City. Most people have only watched what happened through TV, so it's easy for them to choose the 'protect American ego option'.
So passively the media makes a lot of people think that they are witnesses - but they are not. With only imagery but no pain, the anaesthetic unbalances grief and anger. The true witnesses become minority. We are left with a mass of angry psuedowitnesses.
Back to architecture, I remembered an article written by Rem in Wired magazine called 'Delirious No More', after reading his Delirious New York. He briefly continued his DNY story in the age after the Corbu invasion, skimming through the rise of the Twin Towers and its demise.
Obviously, Koolhaas wasn't a big fan of Libeskind's design. (Was he even in one of the 7 teams?) He was then later shortlisted for the Cultural Museum design but he didnt get picked. I wonder if he even wants to design anything anyway.
At the end of the essay, he said, "New York will be marked by a massive representation of hurt that projects only the overbearing self-pity of the powerful. Instead of the confident beginning of the next chapter, it captures the stumped fundamentalism of the superpower. Call it closure."
Originally with the entry of Trump, it sounds kind of good like the drama of the skyscraper race of Empire State versus Chrysler. But no, there is a difference: New York has run out of resources. So instead of a competition of talents in built reality, it becomes a competition of politics and ego at the back of the table. With the entry of Trump, the conflict between developers and architects and the individuals become worse than ever. Don't even think another Rockefeller Center.
nicomachean- 'developers give us efficient bldgs with no souls, architects give us pretty buildings with no souls. both reflecting a soul-less society. this is not a criticism, but a reality. i myself like the state of civilization, as the mass void of meaning allows me to fill my existence with meaning to a level I'm capable of holding/experiencing'
So you are able to fullfill your potential to level which reflects the reality of a soul-less society?
Well you're really pushing the boundaries there!
If Trump wants to build it, he should move his offices to the top 10 stories of it. Hell, put Pataki up there too.
BOTS
no, i'm saying that the state of civilization dictates that the great majority of people are so distracted by the level of abstraction dictated by that civilization that their system of valuing is too weak to process it all.
the 'few' are the small percentage, probably including yourself, that are able to be see through the abstraction and reflections, because our system of valuing is at a much more advanced level.
Its so much worse than we originally thought. From AOL poll:
Which plan do you think is better?
Trump's proposal 70%
The Freedom Tower 30%
Should Trump be involved in this debate?
Yes 64%
No 36%
Ugghh!
Here. Check this out from Larry King Live (M. Trump is Melania, his wife):
KING: Do you look forward to possibly being a father?
D. TRUMP: I think it's great. Look, Larry, the way I look at it, there's nothing like a good marriage and there's nothing like having children. I have four great children. If you have the money, having children is great.
Now, I know Melania. I'm not going to be doing the diapers. I'm not going to be making the food. I may never even see the kids.
She will be an unbelievable mother. I'll be a good father.
KING: How do you know it?
D. TRUMP: Her? She'll be an amazing mother. I have no doubt about that. She'll be an amazing mother.
KING: Have you been back to Slovenia?
M. TRUMP: I've been to Slovenia two years ago.
KING: Did you go?
D. TRUMP: Yes, I was there about 15 minutes.
(LAUGHTER)
A beautiful country. I landed and said: Hi, Mom; Hi, Dad; bye.
ericharch: I bet 90% of the voters aren't from New York, or even from America, with the attitude of 'hey terrorists it's our middle finger and we dont care those newyorkers anyway'. like an evil lawyer dad who forces an artist son to study law just to save his face..
With the announcement of the Cultural Center, the puzzle pieces of the master plan are getting more and more complete. Who in the know would care about Trump anyway?
AMERICAN STARCHITECT--ok heres what they should do with this: scrap everything so far. too eggheady. hold a new competition ala american idle. go through a process of creating a new star architect. have them pitch ideas in the prelim have merciless judges(sound familiar?) destroy egos left and right. feed a few of the talented and beautiful and unique through to design america's next great replacement to the world trade center!!!and let the fine folks of america usa decide what should be built. you get a new building, super ratings, the terrorists lose again to american ingenuity and hootspa and best of all we getnew egghead starchitect that we all can work for for slave wages.
I don't mean this as a spelling critique, vado, but your Fruedian slip...
American Idle
THAT is brilliant.
Excuse me while I curl up in a ball and cry.
vado, I commend your idea, it's a gem. It would be horribly embarrassing and humiliating for all involved and therefore would make great television. Run with it....
it's happenning in Extreme Makeover Home Edition...
Great idea Vado. Seriously, this is what it should be... 1 architect's complete vision for the site. Not a compromise between multiple organizations, corporations, politicians, families and architects, and certainly not an empty replica of what used to be there. And it would be great to see architecture get such play in the media.
Is anyone else taking Vado's idea as seriously as I am?
I think Trump is right. They should rebuild them, as was, only a little taller.
And fitted with an exterior liquid crystal display system that could change color to help camouflage the the buildings.
And missles in all the windows.
And the piece de resistance... Roof top pools to hold the sharks with frikkin' laser beams on their heads. [That's why they've got the top of the White House blanked out on Google Maps.]
And vado is absolutely brilliant.
"the developer who doesn't give a shite about anyone or anything but THEIR money?"
their money is what gives you a job in the first place. Go make your own 100 million and build your monument to yourself, then you can be taken seriously.
all this architecture profession bickering aside, i am a bit more concerned about the how this may affect the international community's view of this debauched american society. someone, trump or whoever, having the nerve to propose something like this only reinforces the conservative, traditionalist, non-progressive thought process found all over the face of our american policy. it's a ridiculous notion and it doesn't shine well upon our standing in a global community.
phphbtbtb.
It's great that Trump has an idea for the Trade Center site. Here's the blindingly clear issue though...He doesn't hold the development rights, Larry Silverstein does and he's very happy with the Libeskin/Childs design.
Poor Donald...A successful TV show and he thinks he can go anywhere.
Architecturally, the new Towers should be a reflection of current design practice, not a recreation of work from the 1970's.
I am confident they won't get built. There would be so many arguments saying how people don't want big steel ghosts there reminding them, every minute, of the horrible site from 911.
That's simple enough logic, although I prefer the 'let's make something visionary, something that suggests a bright future, an architectural masterpiece'. But no one buys that.
sween: actually, Silverstein was never very happy with Daniel Libeskind and he really never wanted that spire at the top which was left from his design. Also, regarding Trump and how the TV Show makes him think he can do anything and go anywhere, it's the other way around. He does this stuff in the service of the sellable TV persona. The whole timing of that Twin Tower press conference and the subsequent media coverage was perfect advertisement for his live-audience final two nights later, as greg.org has pointed out. Shrewd but brilliant.
vado... but the real question for American Starchitect is, how on earth could we narrow the panel of judges to a reasonable number? There are just so many great, and horrible, critics out there that could make this thing HILARIOUS.
this is all coming together as a musical version of the apprentice is going to hit broadway...i'll leave the details to you guys.
Are there underage Archinect posters? Oh well. Screw it.
Donald must be gettin' something right:
http://gorillamask.net/apprentice.shtml
Sorry ladies, you'll have to find the "Boys of the Apprentice" on your own.
Season 2, second from left....
*swoon*
Donald trump may have very bad taste, but I would rather work in a modern clean trump office building than an ugly, poorly maintained architecture office.
Where's AnnRyand when we need her? This is truely another book in the making and then the Trumpster will be making it a primetime movie about him beating up on egghead dannyhowardroarkliebskind, ripping up his drawings and kicking over his models and throwing media press parties to trump all his ideas out to the press to oooh and ahhhh over.
I say we write the script right here and now....Ivanna? She will make great eye candy as the woman who knows how to design anything, and uses donald as her bank account.
Apprentice?............looks those who were fired were brought back to design this one.
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