Go with the Centrino. Besides saving battery life, it should run cooler too, so you can do more for longer.


Pay careful attention the the kind of graphics card, too. I believe that one is ancient. Don't look only at the mbs. ATI makes more than one 256 mb mobile card, and I believe that one is the lesser of the two.
I also recall reading a review where the Dell's 128 ATI was better than HP's 256 ATI card. Look around on PC Mag for that info.

Oops, missed that the 8240 has a Fire card, that's probably better than the 256 ATI. Personally, I think workstation graphic cards are way over priced and that the comparable gaming cards do just as good a job with most things.

I'd go with a Dell. You get a far superior graphcs card, great screen, etc., etc. The 9300 or the XPS 2. They look much better, too.

The face off begins. Here's something to think about, customer support! Two guys in my studio had there laptop crash, they couldn't get it to start up and so they each went back to Best Buy or Compusa to get the problem fix. In each case their laptops were shipped out of state to be repaired. It's been 2 weeks so far and they aren't getting it back for another 2 weeks. I keep hearing about how great Dell's service I'm wondering what type of customer service response would Dell have for similar problems.

if it's an option, get the next day on-site support from Dell (or whoever). Well worth the money if you have a serious issue. Most real business would get this option. A local Dell techncian (contractor) will show up with any replacement parts neeeded based on your diagnosticas call with Dell.

A workstation graphics card may be more money but we've never been sorry with one.

I think that a P4 chip is better suited to intensive rendering applications... battery life isn't really going to be a factor anyway b/c whichever 3D program you're using is going to quickly drain the battery regardless. Another thing, the 17" weighs a ton, just something to consider if you're going to be carrying it long distances. I own a ZX5000, haven't had any problems with it, P4 3.0, 1GB Ram, 256 card. LIke trace said, do your research on the video cards b/c the MBs aren't everything, and from what I've heard Fire cards are best for 3D applications.

Barrett - no problems with over heating? That's what I read was one of the largest problems with the P4s in laptops. Long renders would do this as it's all processor pumpin' those numbers.

I can attest to Dell's support. I had a fan go out on my workstation graphic card last year (trouble shooted via tech support, took them 10 minutes to figure out what was making the weird noise, would ahve taken me about a year!). Within about 18 hours or so a technician was at my place (this was about 40 miles from the nearest 'city') with a new graphic card. He was polite and fast - even refused my tip!

After that I'll always buy Dell's Business computers (it has a different US backed tech support and you don't wait on hold), just got another new workstation as a matter of fact.
So I, personally, would go for the Dell just because of that (and the reviews have been stellar).

If you want something smaller, look at Dell's M70 (I think that's it). Small screen, but it's got a Quadro graphic card (again, I use 2 Geforces, one current, one old, and two Quadros and I can't see the difference that justifies the cost).

Another option is Boxxtech. Ok, just looked. Get the Boxxtech! Their support, especially for highend 3D is supposed to be superb. Expensive, but they give you the best. Take a look:

http://www.boxxtech.com/products/2200.asp

yeah I heard the same about P4s...no problem on my machine as the fans are ample, but I've heard that the Dell XPSs have a hell of a time staying cool with all that power jammed into a laptop, I don't know that they've solved the cooling issue yet...theres always external cooling fans you can mount under the laptop but thats just more shit to lug around...The # of XPS refurbs on the dell site made me a little uneasy about buying one just yet. Boxxtechs are good, know a few heavy Max users that swear by them, they use the external cooling fans with their laptops as well just to protect the investment.

Yeah, the cooling is an ongoing issue that is sure to get, uh, heated.
The Centrino has Speed Step (think that's what they call it), so it'll slow down to compensate for the heat, protecting the machine and processor. Of course, this means it can be slower depending on use, but it does protect itself (as the P4 was never designed for a laptop, I don't think it does this).
One guess why the XPS is a popular refurb is the market they are selling to. I am always shocked someone would cough up $4k for a 'gaming' laptop. I mean, I can't justify that for working with Max and client presentations, how can someone justify that for playing games at the coffee shop? So I'd think it'd be like a lot of 'toys', too many people justify it becuase it is cool, then they realize that it's just not worth it. Just look at the used car market, so many think they 'need' something new and cool, but can't really afford it.
Just a guess, of course.

That is a new Boxxtech, by the way. It must be pretty new, as the specs are better than the previous laptop. Nice stuff.

Back to the original post: they are all nice. I buy Dell for the support - one call gets it all done. But they are all nice.

A specific question for trace:

Is there a fundamental difference between the Dell XPS 2 and the 9300?

I looked at both notebooks and possible configurations and they seem equally powerful. Is the main difference between the XPS 2 and the 9300 in the case? (The xps case lights up and stuff).

I also know that for the xps gen 2 you can get a built in webcam.

But aside from the "aesthetics", any real diff between the 9300 and xps gen 2?

Not that I could find. The XPS is just spec'd out generically much better. You can get a 9300 for less than a grand, but it'll have almost nothing in it.

I'd look at www.techbargains.com for sales, you can usually get around $750 to a 1/3 off the price of the 9300 (on +$2k models), but not the XPS. I like the black on the XPS, but it lights up? That sucks. I don't want my client being distracted by faux neon crap!

Personally, I am going to get the 9300 (putting it off as long as possible, but soon). I'd love that Boxxtech, but just too damn expensive. The sales Dell has are incredible, too.

oh i thought you said lapdance face off. never mind...

ah ha. lap dance face off....ahahahah. a dual in your crotch..teehee
i just got my first lap dance after fianls on thursday. its like a glorified version of dryhumping, yet less filling.err.... whatever.

Trace - apparently the word is that the ZD8002 doesnt overheat too much because its size allows a proper fan to be installed. Weight and size doesnt bother me either. In any case, a proper P4 processor is more ideal for the kind of work we do.

I was looking at the Dell Inspiron 9300, but put off by the price and waiting time at the the moment. Also, being in NZ means that Dell tech support is Australian based, and most help and servicing is either done over the phone or sent back to Oz, in the [unlikely] event of failure. Also, being in NZ also makes getting a Boxxtech an exercise in inconvenience.

I am likely to get the 17incher - in the future hopefully they will release a workstation with a larger screen and then I will upgrade...

I just bought the Dell 9300 with 1.6 Gig Centrino, 1 Gig RAM, and 60 Gig 7200 RPM Hard Drive, and the 256 MB NVidia 6800. Also, I opt'd for the better of the two 17 inch screens and XP Media Center with TV tuner with a 300 Gig External USB2 Hard Drive for watching and recording video/tv. Let me just tell you now... holy $h|7.

This thing is cool as ice for the first 2 or 3 hours of use with mild fan blocking. With no fan blocking you'll stay under 100 degrees, or so, all day long. AutoCAD 2006, VIZ 2006, Rhino 3c, Maya 6.5, form*Z 5, etc. As stated above, techbargains.com lists the most current Dell coupons, but use them immediately (in my experience, the good ones come out on Thursdays and are used up by Sunday). I waited on a 35% off computer and addons and could have saved another $400 or so. The coupon I did use was great though... $750 off of $2000, i think. Get the Dell backpack if you get a carrying case (tons of room).

I just bought the Dell 9300 with 1.6 Gig Centrino, 1 Gig RAM, and 60 Gig 7200 RPM Hard Drive, and the 256 MB NVidia 6800. Also, I opt'd for the better of the two 17 inch screens and XP Media Center with TV tuner with a 300 Gig External USB2 Hard Drive for watching and recording video/tv. Let me just tell you now... holy $h|7.

This thing is cool as ice for the first 2 or 3 hours of use with mild fan blocking. With no fan blocking you'll stay under 100 degrees, or so, all day long. AutoCAD 2006, VIZ 2006, Rhino 3c, Maya 6.5, form*Z 5, etc. As stated above, techbargains.com lists the most current Dell coupons, but use them immediately (in my experience, the good ones come out on Thursdays and are used up by Sunday). I waited on a 35% off computer and addons and could have saved another $400 or so. The coupon I did use was great though... $750 off of $2000, i think. Get the Dell backpack if you get a carrying case (tons of room).

One thing I did like about the Boxxtech was that upgrading to 2 gigs is pretty affordable, unlike the Dell (something like $800 more). It's still pricey, though.

Steve - glad to hear someone loves it! I saw the cheaper screen at an airport display and wasn't impressed (could have been a bad example, though). Glad to hear the new screen rocks!

I just bought the Dell 9300 with 1.6 Gig Centrino, 1 Gig RAM, and 60 Gig 7200 RPM Hard Drive, and the 256 MB NVidia 6800. Also, I opt'd for the better of the two 17 inch screens and XP Media Center with TV tuner with a 300 Gig External USB2 Hard Drive for watching and recording video/tv. Let me just tell you now... holy $h|7.

This thing is cool as ice for the first 2 or 3 hours of use with mild fan blocking. With no fan blocking you'll stay under 100 degrees, or so, all day long. AutoCAD 2006, VIZ 2006, Rhino 3c, Maya 6.5, form*Z 5, etc. As stated above, techbargains.com lists the most current Dell coupons, but use them immediately (in my experience, the good ones come out on Thursdays and are used up by Sunday). I waited on a 35% off computer and addons and could have saved another $400 or so. The coupon I did use was great though... $750 off of $2000, i think. Get the Dell backpack if you get a carrying case (tons of room).

sorry for the multiple posts... i'm on my aunt's computer in milwaukee.

I have been looking at the hp zd6000 series.

There's been some talk about graphics cards. Anyone had experience with these?

32MB ATI RADEON(R) XPRESS 200M
128MB ATI RADEON(R) XPRESS 200M w/Hypermemory(TM)

Also, these can come with AMD Athalon 64s from 2 to 2.4GHz. I have been on the apple side of things for a while, so I have not kept up with AMD and Intel processors, especially for laptops.

For around $1500 (USD) one of these could be had. A lot of dough, but if the graphics cards are alright, then it might be an interesting choice? The use would mainly be for InDesign, Photoshop, and Illustrator. Also will be hooked up to this machine.

hmm, I think the graphics card uses a shared memory configuration, using system ram.

Just an update

There is a "KEY" difference between the 9300 and xps gen 2. For the gen 2, the go 6800 ULTRA is standard and it is not even an optionfor the 9300.

Being a gamer, I have heard that the ULTRA can run games at DOUBLE the framerate when compared to the standard go 6800.

wiseof - look at Steve F's post, you can get a superior machine for that price.

nappy - damn, you are right!! Arrg. I was sure I had looked closely at everything! Damn, now I have to lean to the one that glows??
Have any idea about 3D apps? Best is always better, but I will not be playing games on it at all (where's the time??)

Just tested it, the $750 off works for the XPS too. Cool.

Trace,

Sadly I have neglected this key difference between the XPS and the 9300. I already have the 9300 on order:(

But I have read that the go 6800 Ultra pretty much destroys the go 6800 in terms of performance. It's a guarantee that it will definately be better for 3D apps...especially when doing complex models/rendering.

DOH!

Anyway, if you guys are looking for even more power get an alienware laptop....same configs as the xps gen 2 but u can get a config with a 3.2 ghz p4 processor.

But for me it's dell all the way!

Trace,

The "lights" on the XPS gen 2 can be turned off completely.

but the xps weight 8.6lbs... heavyweight...

what's a comparable model from IBM with Dell's xps?

this one? T43? weights only 5.79lbs

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2285

*Phew* You can turn the lights off! Probably pay a nice premium for them, but oh well.

Nappy - Dell is REALLY good about their return policy (hence why you see so many refurbished models that are brand new), so if you want the XPS, I'd order one and return the 9300. My father actual did that a while ago (different model, of course) with no problem.

Also, a 2.0 Centrino should be as fast as a 3.2 P4 - the clockspeeds are not comparable, read up on it at PC Mag, it's worth it because people keep suggesting the P4's are way faster, which isn't true. They do, though, come out with faster ones quicker, but a 3.2 is old.

StainB - look at your specs. That IBM has a 14.1" screen, not even close to the Dell's 17". 8.6lbs is pretty light for a 17" laptop. Also, read the IBM reviews at PC Mag, it's totally touch and go (unlike the Dell's, that pretty much all get stellar reviews for performance and value), most not rating high at all and they cost a ton.

Centrino is the only way to go for a laptop.

steve, how often does that Dell 35% off computer and addons come around? i'm looking into getting a 600m for my gf - anyone know anything about the pentium m chips?

They are older chips, between the Centrino and P4. They may even be considered part of the early Centrino line, at least as far as their marekting goes. There was the P4 Mobile, too.

As if it weren't hard enough to keep track of already!

You can get the 9300 for as little as a grand, with so so parts. With the way I need it spec'd, it's about $3500 before rebate. That's why I am waiting for the 30% off, not $750 off.

we talking about once every couple of months for this coupon or once a year kinda thing? she's taken over my lap

600M is around the size and weight for what i am looking for... just don't know much about that chip is all.

The newest mobile pentiums are still called Pentium-m's, Centrino is the name for the whole chipset including processor, and wireless chip etc. I would not buy a laptop with anything else than pentium-m / centrino. Not even for rendering, they are quite spiffy, and the whole laptop is usually so much cooler, quieter and slimmer compared to P4 monsters. If you really need that much power for rendering, throw together a cheap box for that on the side.

apple

five, I agree with you about the Apple, I use a AlPB15". But there is the issue of running AutoDesk stuff, namely AutoCAD, and Discreet 3D Studio Max, etc. Not to mention other apps like Rhino.

Also, have you noticed the system bus on the Powerbooks? I know comparing Apple specs to PC specs is not all cut n dry, but there are some like the system bus which definately affect performance no matted how you look at things. Don't get me wrong, I think the workflow on my PB is great. I just want to run some of those other programs, and VPC sure isn't going to cut it.

ether - those coupons come and go. Some are even on a per use basis, with like 2500 times and it expires. That can happen in an hour or less.

They come back often, though, so be patient and they'll be there. I believe there is a 35% off one now, take a look.

thanks trace. i'll check it out.

Someone above mentioned that Alienware goes up to a 3.2 ghz processor in their laptops -- fact is the Area 51m 7100 goes up to 3.8! Hows that for power. But I'm not sure about the brains behind the brawn, check this out: I was persuing the Alienware website last week and in the Area 51 description they had (highlighted no less) the term 'simplistic elegance' describing the aesthetics of their machines. This was the email I shot off to their sales department:

Dear Alienware,

First let me start by stating that I like your product/company.
However, I was quite surprised to find the words "simplistic elegance"
hi-lighted in your website description of the Area 51 Laptop design.
Usually"simplistic" as a word has negative connotations (akin to simple- minded) -- as compared to "simple" or "simplicity", which do indeed suggest elegance. Just as "complicated" has negative connotations (as in overly complicated) -- when compared to "complex" or "complexity". As such, the alternative "elegant simplicity" would have none of said negative implications.

It amazes me your marketing/ad people don't realize that to describe any
computer, let alone Alienware, with "simplistic elegance" is simply not going to win over any thinking people as new customers!

--lo and behold, on the website today I see someone changed "simplistic elegance" to "elegant simplicity". Whataya know. But did they offer me a free Alienware machine for saving them millions in lost sales? no!

Dell is running their 30% off their XPS models right now

oopps sorry that's desktop not notebooks

Purchase: Get:

Dimension XPS desktops 30% Off Instantly!
Dimension 8400 desktops 25% Off Instantly!
Dimension 4700C, 4700, 3000 or 2400 desktops 20% Off Instantly!
Inspiron 6000 or 600m notebooks 25% Off Instantly!
Inspiron 9300, 700m or 2200 notebooks 20% Off Instantly!
Inspiron XPS2 or 1200 notebooks 15% Off Instantly!
Latitude X1 notebooks 5% Off Instantly!

What is the difference in the laptop lines (i.e. Dimension vs Inspiron vs Latitude)?

Dimension = standard, single processor desktop

Dell InspironTM Notebooks
Aggressively priced systems for users desiring the latest technologies and superior usability.

Dell LatitudeTM Notebooks
Business-class, network-optimized solutions offering long product life cycles and cutting-edge style.

Precision = workstations, both desktop and laptops

yeah, I know the info from the dell website, I guess I was meaning personal experience. Between Inspiron and Latitudetheir descriptions could really mean anything.

anyone have any comments on dell precision series?

i love small screens so m20 is my weapon of choice (unfortunately it only comes with 64mb openGL card)

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/precn_m70?c=uk&cs=ukbsdt1&l=en&s=bsd

stainB - I believe it comes with a 256 Quadro here in the US.

wisof - it's just the specs. not sure what info you are looking for. The Precisions, for example, come with only high end graphic cards (where as teh Dimensions only come with gaming cards), some have dual capability, etc. One is for high end business, the other for anything. Also, the workstatins usually don't come with things like sound cards, but always come with network cards.
Laptops are a little more similar. Just look over the specs, though.

stainB -

Your link is for the M70, which comes with a QuadroFX Go card w/ 256mb.
Is this the one you're after?
I purchased a couple of these for a company I worked for and they worked out well. Was worried about the M processor not being up to
scratch but seems to perform quite well. One did fry itself, but Dell support (which works just the way I want it to - kind of 'no questions
asked we fix or swap it" if you go for NBD option). They weigh a ton though.
In my experience all PC laptops suffer at least one major incident in their lifetime, so I would make sure to take out sufficient support.
I don't know if you're based in the UK, but MicroAnvika usually do very good deals on the 'last quarters' Toshiba laptops. I know people that are very happy with these too.
Also, keep in mind how much heavy rendering you're actually going to do on the laptop on a daily basis. Maybe consider using it as a front end and get a couple of cheapo desktop render units on the side for home.
As for graphics cards, I'm not convinced that you actually gain that much if you're primary work is 2d/3d. I mean, maybe you can afford to wait a second or two. However, if gaming is your thing, then yes, maybe it's an issue. But make sure that whatever spec you end up with is not going to give you any nasty surprises in your favourite app. So, say for Maya, make sure to check their hardware qual chart beforehand. Actually, that chart might give you an indication of what the best choice of hardware is.
For everyone - consider getting together a small group of people who are also looking to buy laptops at your school and see if you can get bulk deals from the vendor. Try Dell's corporate people.
I think Dell boxes are really good deals, but they aren't pretty.
I really like Thinkpads. I use an iBook. So there.

stainB - sorry, should've mentioned that the M70's I bought were much older than this latest model. So specs were a little different.

i bought a new compaq w/athalon 64 3500...the r4000...can't get viz to work right tho..anyone have this problem-freezes everytime i do a search to add a file in file link manager...other than that acad and photoshop work great ..ugh just viz

thanks for your advice henrik,

thinkpad or an ibook have the best design in the market... but compatiblity issue with macOS and mid-range thinkpad only equip with ATI Mobility RADEON 7500:32MB.

my question is, how much difference in speed will a 32MB vs 64MB graphic card make?

all i need a front end machine to do CAD, perhaps quick rendering (3dmax), and bit of work on photoshop and illustrator as well.

thanks

Update:

I am getting the NW8240 - the WUXGA, 2.0ghz variant, with docking station. Should be here next Wednesday - very much looking forward to it.

d.i.abase.

stainB - the latest machines have 256 mb cards. 32mb is ancient and 64mb still very old. I'd go with at least a good card (research the card, I've got a $600+ Quadro 1400 in my workstation/desktop with only 128 mb ram, but it'll work much better for 3D than the cheaper gaming cards with 256 mbs). MBs aren't everything.

But also remember you can use whatever, it will just be a headache. Even the cheapest machines blow the doors off of what I learned Max on. But back then, the expectations and knowledge were much less.

PC desktop
Mac laptop