why is there so much gatekeeping on this forum (especially here, there are lots of douchebags), and in architecture in general (at least in english... don't know about other languages)
compared to for example, graphic design or web development, or cuisine, woodworking. nobody wants to actually share any techniques
is everybody just really paranoid/insecure? they think their career will be over if they explain to newcomers or the general public how they made a form in maya or how you should detail your foundation waterproofing?
if you look at programming there are endless hours of people teaching how to pass the most difficult interview questions... and look at how successful as whole that industry is compared to architecture. there are even movements where they say 'everyone should learn to code'. only in a fantasy world would anyone think it's worthwhile to learn architecture...
hey man, you’re ruining our buzz. Besides that, no, there is no gate keeping. There is just a giant invisible “no freeloading wankers” sign above the bar.
"only in a fantasy world would anyone think it's worthwhile to learn architecture..."
And you expect Archinect to help you why?
How is it gatekeeping when random strangers on an internet forum won't provide you free professional services or advice?
Sure, people like to be snarky here, it's part of the .....charm .....of the forum, but in most cases if you ask an honest question that you're not just trying to get someone to do your homework or your job for you, people pitch in helpful answers.
I think you're also failing to grasp that as soon as people get too far into answering questions there is a legal aspect to this, and it also starts to take a lot of time. You can share a chunk of code and no one cares, you won't get sued, and you can recycle what you shared. If you look into forums related to architectural software, there is a TON of helpful stuff exactly like this (because it's visual coding, so you have the same upsides)
Consider that maybe you are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place. For example there are plenty of detailing resources where the money is at. Manufacturers, architectural books, even social media where the providers have some sort of value added to the time and effort they spend, such as Instagram. But most architects haven't figured out that kind of marketing yet. Give it 10 years.
Realistically, if it's professional advice, whoever is stamping a drawing is the most responsible. Ask your boss first, the if they refuse to answer you... THAT is gatekeeping.
nah. people mirror what you send out, which means you see people acting like assholes because what you're sending out is being an asshole. if you want to be part of a forum where people aren't shit people, stop being the shit person.
i get that you want stuff given to you. if you want to live in a world where people give you stuff, you have to give stuff. then that gets mirrored back to you, right? but you're not that person who gives stuff. you're the person that only wants to take. the world you live in sucks because you suck.
The problem here is people dont come to ask for help but to validate the beliefs planted by tv and houzz and pinterest that they too can be an architect, same happened in the past 2 decades with medical tv shows and people feel ill of everything possible, only they dont have a surgeon' s forum to troll. humanity is stupid that way.
I've been active on forums for over 20 years and don't find this one any different than others, aside from mostly-deserved snark for realtors and homeowners mining us for info, or college kids who don't want to do their homework.
I haven't noticed you post much, but I did see this really helpful comment from you on a post of mine:
I guess I don't know what you're talking about, then. As far as I can tell, when legitimate questions are asked in a respectful manner, there are always a lot of responses. A few are snarky because, well, architects. But there are always good responses as well. Where have you seen otherwise?
Just here to point out that the comment and inline replies literally right above Koww's comment on the "Communicating High Performance Details" thread was Bench saying, hey I don't think I know enough about building science, and a couple of us chiming in with helpful comments pointing out freely available and fantastic information for someone looking to get into building science more. Pretty much the antithesis of gatekeeping.
Can't really speak for local my local community, don't participate that much, but I've gotten some helpful feedback from architects in other firms when inquiring about their projects, so I'd have to say not my experience. I could see this though, I remember back in my home state people seemed a little more close to the chest with things, probably because of the market was so much worse.
I do see this a bit in my work life though, particularly when people are guarding things they know that they could easily be replaced for. It's a safety mechanism I guess, but really annoying. I also see people be defensive of knowledge they don't really even have... Which would be funny if it wasn't sad.
i want to respond to this but i actually can't figure out what you're talking about. in the sense of people who instinctively defend the distinction of being licensed as some mark of superiority beyond mere legal compliance i'd agree there is a culture of petty exclusionism - but i don't know if that's your question.
in general there aren't easily explained techniques that architects use to get the work done. the hardest part of the job is getting the work; the second hardest is figuring out what needs to be done and how to do it.
When you share too much in the domain of website design, you can diminish the market value.
When it comes to software development (to compare to the analogy of the collective AEC industry), you have two broad modes of doing business. On one hand you have the business model where you produce a product and sell them as goods. This is fine when you have a product where you are mass producing for multiple customers where the product is designed to meet a wide range of features for a variety of customers. Example: Autocad and Revit products.
The other business model is custom software consultant services. This model is the model where a software consultant (ranging from software architecture, software engineering, and programming to full custom software development service) provides a specialized service for developing a custom software solution to a particular client (note the change in term from customer to client) to meeting a particular need.
Most architects work in a business model similar to the latter as a consultant providing custom solutions to a particular client's needs as it pertains to buildings (and landscape). The business model is basically the same.
Technically, a website designer business model is technically a consultant-client service business model as is architects, engineers, etc. However, custom software development consultant services is more rare and they are almost exclusively a B2B service and involves a broader scope than just a website but the software systems which may include web-side components but intranet-side systems and isolated systems. These services are VERY expensive compared to the cost of website development costs. The more work involved, the more it is going to cost. I'm talking about the comparison of designing a dog house for a small dog to that of designing a skyscraper or a stadium. The scope and labor involved in the designing, the engineering, and programming/coding (which can be compared in a loose analogy to construction) can be quite significant... even compared to the amount of work hours to create a modern-day operating system from scratch.
Lets take a moment to consider that architects are in business to get paid for their advice, knowledge, etc. They are consultants and consultants gets paid for their advice on matters. So does custom software consultants, lawyers, etc. Why in the world would they want to just give away what they know.
Why would they want to encourage people coming here to get answers for their questions in order to avoid actually getting into a contractual agreement with an architect. The first order of business is get an idea what the client wants in regards to what the design challenge is, the scope of services, and getting paid.... ALL BEFORE PROVIDING ANSWERS/SOLUTIONS to the design challenge of the client. A lawyer may get a general idea of what their clients legal issues are and define the scope of service and their pay and then have a written and signed contract with their client before they give any legal advice to the particular legal issue.
Why should architects give away what they can be billing and get paid for?
Each architect can decide for himself or herself as to what they are willing to "give away" for free.
I don't know...asking people with too much time on their hands for advice might not give you the answers you need, or might not reflect the architectural community as a whole. The people that might have something useful to add to the discussion are probably too busy being successful ;-)
I don’t mind sharing to help someone with a question or concern, I do mind sharing to help someone save 3 seconds of doing their own research, and I do mind sharing to help someone be cheap and avoid paying someone for something.
"gatekeeping?"...maybe, but my guess is that the expectations of coming here for professional technical info just doesn't match with what the expectations are for the forum's original intention itself or of the people who are freqent posters
there is also a generational split in expectations of how technical info is/should be shared...many younger folks expect it to be online now...my teenager WILL NOT call/speak to anyone for info; it must be online somewhere
I think there are some misunderstanding about how easy it is to share technical information for architecture anyway. Things constantly change. What's valid in one location is not in another. There are many ways to do things, the manufacturers and quality of the contractor impact things. It's a messy business.
I think a side effect related to this is the perception of gatekeeping in some instances where in reality it's a fear of exposing yourself for either not knowing, or having outdated knowledge.
This seems particular true with faster moving industry technical standards. Most TPO roofing doesn't require cant strips at 90% of applications anymore...
As well as things that people get set in their mind as bulletproof code... How many steps do you need before a handrail is required in California? It's probably not what you think... or what a lot of architects in Cali think.... Or the officials.
And see now the kicker is, by putting two examples out there, I open myself up to criticism. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe people will disagree with me. Maybe I am contextually wrong? So why would I expose myself to the risk of professional ridicule for free?
If "the regulars" were the ones always talking college apps, we'd already have a "college application central" thread ... instead it's new members who can't bother with the search function. I'd love a feature where if the thread title is close to another thread, archinect shows a link to the other thread and says, "you might try clicking here instead of posting a new thread."
Better yet, just make the form for posting a new thread default to a search function until you've posted X number of times.
How about a feature that when you type a title for the tread searches and brings up similar titles before allowing you to post? There's similar features on AutoDesk and Microsoft forums.
I LOOOOVE helping people work out tricksy details, but I don't love it enough do it for free (although I do offer a "first one's free" for marketing purposes).
I used to work for a guy that would answer my questions with something like "it took me 20 years to learn that, I'm not going to tell you." I'm now the age he was then and he is dead. If I know how to answer your question, I will. Even realtors and lawyers help each other out, sheesh. Edit to add: BUT I don't think this forum is the place to get that kind of help. There is usually more moving parts than can be answered here.
Sixteen comments, 28 total responses and only one response from Koww? And they wonder why we can be impatient with some posters... I guess I should feel honored that their one response was to me, calling them out for not sharing helpful information.
Rush Limbaugh died so the idea that women, minorities, and young people are coming for your job and you need to fend them off should wane a bit. Hopefully.
gatekeeping
why is there so much gatekeeping on this forum (especially here, there are lots of douchebags), and in architecture in general (at least in english... don't know about other languages)
compared to for example, graphic design or web development, or cuisine, woodworking. nobody wants to actually share any techniques
is everybody just really paranoid/insecure? they think their career will be over if they explain to newcomers or the general public how they made a form in maya or how you should detail your foundation waterproofing?
if you look at programming there are endless hours of people teaching how to pass the most difficult interview questions... and look at how successful as whole that industry is compared to architecture. there are even movements where they say 'everyone should learn to code'. only in a fantasy world would anyone think it's worthwhile to learn architecture...
hey man, you’re ruining our buzz. Besides that, no, there is no gate keeping. There is just a giant invisible “no freeloading wankers” sign above the bar.
"only in a fantasy world would anyone think it's worthwhile to learn architecture..."
And you expect Archinect to help you why?
How is it gatekeeping when random strangers on an internet forum won't provide you free professional services or advice?
Sure, people like to be snarky here, it's part of the .....charm .....of the forum, but in most cases if you ask an honest question that you're not just trying to get someone to do your homework or your job for you, people pitch in helpful answers.
I think you're also failing to grasp that as soon as people get too far into answering questions there is a legal aspect to this, and it also starts to take a lot of time. You can share a chunk of code and no one cares, you won't get sued, and you can recycle what you shared. If you look into forums related to architectural software, there is a TON of helpful stuff exactly like this (because it's visual coding, so you have the same upsides)
Consider that maybe you are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place. For example there are plenty of detailing resources where the money is at. Manufacturers, architectural books, even social media where the providers have some sort of value added to the time and effort they spend, such as Instagram. But most architects haven't figured out that kind of marketing yet. Give it 10 years.
Realistically, if it's professional advice, whoever is stamping a drawing is the most responsible. Ask your boss first, the if they refuse to answer you... THAT is gatekeeping.
nah. people mirror what you send out, which means you see people acting like assholes because what you're sending out is being an asshole. if you want to be part of a forum where people aren't shit people, stop being the shit person.
i get that you want stuff given to you. if you want to live in a world where people give you stuff, you have to give stuff. then that gets mirrored back to you, right? but you're not that person who gives stuff. you're the person that only wants to take. the world you live in sucks because you suck.
...
Do you have some input you'd like to give, you seem to be rather down on the people who disagree with the OP?
The problem here is people dont come to ask for help but to validate the beliefs planted by tv and houzz and pinterest that they too can be an architect, same happened in the past 2 decades with medical tv shows and people feel ill of everything possible, only they dont have a surgeon' s forum to troll. humanity is stupid that way.
I've been active on forums for over 20 years and don't find this one any different than others, aside from mostly-deserved snark for realtors and homeowners mining us for info, or college kids who don't want to do their homework.
I haven't noticed you post much, but I did see this really helpful comment from you on a post of mine:
"Comment from: Communicating High Performance Details
Discussion Forum | Feb 11, 21 12:23 am
can you make a high performance building that doesnt look like doo doo?"
Perhaps "be the change you want to see" is a good phrase to keep in mind.
legit criticism has no relation to gatekeeping
I guess I don't know what you're talking about, then. As far as I can tell, when legitimate questions are asked in a respectful manner, there are always a lot of responses. A few are snarky because, well, architects. But there are always good responses as well. Where have you seen otherwise?
Just here to point out that the comment and inline replies literally right above Koww's comment on the "Communicating High Performance Details" thread was Bench saying, hey I don't think I know enough about building science, and a couple of us chiming in with helpful comments pointing out freely available and fantastic information for someone looking to get into building science more. Pretty much the antithesis of gatekeeping.
... but trolls gonna troll I guess...
FWIW, I encounter a gazillion times more gatekeeing in my real life AIA chapter and local community groups than here on Archinect.
Can't really speak for local my local community, don't participate that much, but I've gotten some helpful feedback from architects in other firms when inquiring about their projects, so I'd have to say not my experience. I could see this though, I remember back in my home state people seemed a little more close to the chest with things, probably because of the market was so much worse.
I do see this a bit in my work life though, particularly when people are guarding things they know that they could easily be replaced for. It's a safety mechanism I guess, but really annoying. I also see people be defensive of knowledge they don't really even have... Which would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Yes, most of the gatekeeping I see IRL is in places where there is a weak market for architectural work.
i want to respond to this but i actually can't figure out what you're talking about. in the sense of people who instinctively defend the distinction of being licensed as some mark of superiority beyond mere legal compliance i'd agree there is a culture of petty exclusionism - but i don't know if that's your question.
in general there aren't easily explained techniques that architects use to get the work done. the hardest part of the job is getting the work; the second hardest is figuring out what needs to be done and how to do it.
KOWW, like HOLY F---ing COW.....
When you share too much in the domain of website design, you can diminish the market value.
When it comes to software development (to compare to the analogy of the collective AEC industry), you have two broad modes of doing business. On one hand you have the business model where you produce a product and sell them as goods. This is fine when you have a product where you are mass producing for multiple customers where the product is designed to meet a wide range of features for a variety of customers. Example: Autocad and Revit products.
The other business model is custom software consultant services. This model is the model where a software consultant (ranging from software architecture, software engineering, and programming to full custom software development service) provides a specialized service for developing a custom software solution to a particular client (note the change in term from customer to client) to meeting a particular need.
Most architects work in a business model similar to the latter as a consultant providing custom solutions to a particular client's needs as it pertains to buildings (and landscape). The business model is basically the same.
Technically, a website designer business model is technically a consultant-client service business model as is architects, engineers, etc. However, custom software development consultant services is more rare and they are almost exclusively a B2B service and involves a broader scope than just a website but the software systems which may include web-side components but intranet-side systems and isolated systems. These services are VERY expensive compared to the cost of website development costs. The more work involved, the more it is going to cost. I'm talking about the comparison of designing a dog house for a small dog to that of designing a skyscraper or a stadium. The scope and labor involved in the designing, the engineering, and programming/coding (which can be compared in a loose analogy to construction) can be quite significant... even compared to the amount of work hours to create a modern-day operating system from scratch.
Lets take a moment to consider that architects are in business to get paid for their advice, knowledge, etc. They are consultants and consultants gets paid for their advice on matters. So does custom software consultants, lawyers, etc. Why in the world would they want to just give away what they know.
Why would they want to encourage people coming here to get answers for their questions in order to avoid actually getting into a contractual agreement with an architect. The first order of business is get an idea what the client wants in regards to what the design challenge is, the scope of services, and getting paid.... ALL BEFORE PROVIDING ANSWERS/SOLUTIONS to the design challenge of the client. A lawyer may get a general idea of what their clients legal issues are and define the scope of service and their pay and then have a written and signed contract with their client before they give any legal advice to the particular legal issue.
Why should architects give away what they can be billing and get paid for?
Each architect can decide for himself or herself as to what they are willing to "give away" for free.
I don't know...asking people with too much time on their hands for advice might not give you the answers you need, or might not reflect the architectural community as a whole. The people that might have something useful to add to the discussion are probably too busy being successful ;-)
Koww -
You poor pathetic little troll.
Try harder sad troll, try harder.
I don’t mind sharing to help someone with a question or concern, I do mind sharing to help someone save 3 seconds of doing their own research, and I do mind sharing to help someone be cheap and avoid paying someone for something.
"gatekeeping?"...maybe, but my guess is that the expectations of coming here for professional technical info just doesn't match with what the expectations are for the forum's original intention itself or of the people who are freqent posters
there is also a generational split in expectations of how technical info is/should be shared...many younger folks expect it to be online now...my teenager WILL NOT call/speak to anyone for info; it must be online somewhere
I think there are some misunderstanding about how easy it is to share technical information for architecture anyway. Things constantly change. What's valid in one location is not in another. There are many ways to do things, the manufacturers and quality of the contractor impact things. It's a messy business.
Certainly. In a world of commodified retail products, architecture tends to be often site specific and one-off, even for repeatable project types...
Sometimes, there isn't "an answer," but strategies for answering.
I think a side effect related to this is the perception of gatekeeping in some instances where in reality it's a fear of exposing yourself for either not knowing, or having outdated knowledge.
This seems particular true with faster moving industry technical standards. Most TPO roofing doesn't require cant strips at 90% of applications anymore...
As well as things that people get set in their mind as bulletproof code... How many steps do you need before a handrail is required in California? It's probably not what you think... or what a lot of architects in Cali think.... Or the officials.
And see now the kicker is, by putting two examples out there, I open myself up to criticism. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe people will disagree with me. Maybe I am contextually wrong? So why would I expose myself to the risk of professional ridicule for free?
When people complain about gatekeeping, this photo sums up my collective eye rolling.
Two separate threads on the same fucking topic.
two separate threads, so far.
Can't we have just one thread for "college applications" or something like that?
If "the regulars" were the ones always talking college apps, we'd already have a "college application central" thread ... instead it's new members who can't bother with the search function. I'd love a feature where if the thread title is close to another thread, archinect shows a link to the other thread and says, "you might try clicking here instead of posting a new thread."
Better yet, just make the form for posting a new thread default to a search function until you've posted X number of times.
Passive aggressive “let me google that for you” feature. I like it.
How about a feature that when you type a title for the tread searches and brings up similar titles before allowing you to post? There's similar features on AutoDesk and Microsoft forums.
I LOOOOVE helping people work out tricksy details, but I don't love it enough do it for free (although I do offer a "first one's free" for marketing purposes).
I used to work for a guy that would answer my questions with something like "it took me 20 years to learn that, I'm not going to tell you." I'm now the age he was then and he is dead. If I know how to answer your question, I will. Even realtors and lawyers help each other out, sheesh. Edit to add: BUT I don't think this forum is the place to get that kind of help. There is usually more moving parts than can be answered here.
Sixteen comments, 28 total responses and only one response from Koww? And they wonder why we can be impatient with some posters... I guess I should feel honored that their one response was to me, calling them out for not sharing helpful information.
ding ding ding. gold star observation.
i will send you a certificate
I get a gold star AND a certificate? And your second response on this was also to me? Holy shit I feel special.
Wood Guy - you should feel special! You got a sad little troll to come back after it was humiliated.
Rush Limbaugh died so the idea that women, minorities, and young people are coming for your job and you need to fend them off should wane a bit. Hopefully.
Hopefully it's the end of an era!
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