I am writing this thread seeking the advice of the board members. I am 29 years old Intern architect, I graduated class 1st all my study years, then worked as a TA for sometime, then for the last 5 years as an intern architect.
I got my Education outside the US and Canada, but was able to get my education accepted and have been working for two years in Canada as an Intern.
My problem lies in the extremely low salaries that I see in the profession, and it seems to be the case every place I do a job interview in. I get paid 23 an hour and my hour is charged to clients at 85 rate. I totally understand that there are office expenses, insurance, software, ..etc.
But the years on education and the amount of time I spend working in multimillion dollar projects, whether in studies, design, and detailing, are not well compensated compared to other jobs that require less effort, skills, and knowledge.
In addition to that, I am struggling to get specific internship hours that employers not interested in letting me do, like site visits that is totally dominated by senior architects. In 2 years of work I got only 5 hours site visits and I still have about 115 hours remaining. Whatever I do they just do not allow me to get the hours. Other offices are no difference they just want my design and construction documentation skills and that is it.
Now I am thinking of taking a year or two off work and totally dedicate my time and energy to self study programming, as I found it a rewarding career for smart and hard working individuals that I am sure that most architecture graduates are.
Do you think that it is a wise idea to take this step?
So, with 2 years of canadian experience, getting $23cad/hr (or roughly 46k/year) is sorta the norm. Location will affect this, obviously, but junior & intern staff don't really get much higher than about $55k/year these days. Your billing rate is x4 your wage so that's also reasonable but you have to know that not every hour you work and receive pay for is actually billed to a paying client.
Anyways, 2 things to take from your post. The first is that if your current office in unwilling to give you site exp, then you need to get the fuck out of dodge, pardoner mon français. Getting your boots dirty and working the site and CA is the first step from separating yourself from the production crew. Not only do you get face time with GC but you will learn how your drawings get converted into build stuff and address problems on the spot. Note that you actually have more than 115hr left... because that number is just the minimum cut-off. That category requires twice that split between site and CA. So either make your case known to your current employer or look for another office. Just ask the right questions during the interview to see how the treat their employees' growth. Our office does this and I've often dragged interns and designers onto job sites to explain how shit works in real time. Even for our staff that is not expected to deal with site, when I do the CA on gigs they were involved with, I will show them the process.
If you really want to look at more education, look into construction management college level diplomas. Every local college is pumping out students from these things and every GC or large landlord, developer are snapping up these kids and throwing them into the field. You can't self-study this stuff tho.
Thank you for your reply. Actually I am likely to leave my office soon, as I reached a dead end with senior architects who refuses my many requests to be involved even in a minor way in site visits.
Jan 31, 21 8:04 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
What is the type of firm and clients you’re currently workin in? Location? Try to look at opportunities instead of $/hr figures.
Jan 31, 21 8:57 pm ·
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MA1990
It is an architectural firm (not design/build) in London, ON. Clients are mostly Universities/ colleges (Fanshawe college, U of Western, U of Waterloo) , large scale residential development ( multi phase apartments developments) and commercial ( commercial pads, big box stores), but we rarely do detached homes, so mostly OBC part 3 buildings fully BIM. The office also goes in joint ventures with Diamond schmitt and other big firms. I totally get your point to search for opportunity not money to learn more and have a better value. If I got an opportunity in a really good firm, money will not be of the top priority, as the experience, and connections will make up for the lower salary in the near future ( but sadly all interviews are in small firms not willing to pay well, and doing the same type of projects that I am used to). However, I believe good firms are firms which values its employees p
rofessionally and financially.
Thanks for the clarification. London is not the place you want to be if you're looking to advance your options. It's a sorta in a useless part of the 401... too far from the GTA to be involved and not big enough to have it's own identify. It does not help that many projects there are done by other Ontario firms. I know my office has a few out there (London, Cambridge, Waterloo, Windsor) and we're based in Ottawa. You will need to find a place that gives you more tasks than just BIM and sometimes, smaller firms keep the same crew from start to finish. I can't imagine any office paying less than $23/hr for someone with a few years exp.
Jan 31, 21 9:36 pm ·
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MA1990
Everything is imaginable, recently got 3 interviews, one ended up offering 21 /hr in Waterloo, 20 hr in Scarborough area(Toronto), and the third was offering -you will not believe - 18 an hour (Toronto) :D .. Note: I have 2500+ Canadian Internship hours ( Mostly category A experience - Design / Construction Documents) and really good projects list. I hope that offices tell me before taking the time travelling from London for an interview their budget for the new employee.
Jan 31, 21 9:56 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
Well... thanks for proving my assumptions wrong. Those are some rough offers.
I'll be blunt: do what you need to do to get your license. If that means changing employers or even taking a pay cut, do it. I do ok as a non-licensed designer in the US but there would be many more doors open with a license. From what I've seen it often takes about 6-10 years of experience before you start ramping up your income. If making big money is important to you, a lot of things will need to fall in your favor, and maybe being the typical office architect is not the best position for you. But if you have the license you'll have more options.
Thank you for your input in my situation. From what I see it looks like what you say is typical in term of salary increases corresponding to years of work. It is a painfully slow process to get higher salaries for a typical office architect. I hope to find a place that can make my transition process from intern to a licensed architect process fast enough to have more flexibility.
However, no one seems to answer one of my options to change careers. I know it is long process. At the same time I can't see more experienced friends making much more after double my experience.
NS is correct in what he is saying. There is another major factor in your low salary. It's called discrimination, pure-and-simple. You are a foreigner in a, I'm guessing, Anglo world. Even if you move to another office, you will encounter some of that shiet. They will probably use the excuse that you don't have much Canadian experience, and that you are not registered. It's BS! I have seen this scenario time-and-again. I have spoken to a Iranian structural engineer who graduated with PhD from Manchester University and who had something like 12 years experience in UK, I think, yet he was told that he doesn't have enough experience for Canada. So, he was taking Revit classes at a local community college. Fine, when it comes to wood frame housing, but when it comes to other stuff, I'm sure he could have designed circles around some of the locally graduated engineers. To add insult to the injury, Canadian Embassy in Tehran, essentially, told him, "Oh, there is all kinds of work in Canada. And it's well paid too, plus you'll be welcomed with open arms". I know, he should have looked into it more before selling his house there, and coming to a new country for work, but hey...
See if you can get a job with a General Contractor. You probably will get paid more just counting delivery trucks than you will in a studio.
I do not know, I am always trying to get myself out of the victim position and not to blame discrimination for it (Although most of my interviews in offices which targets visible minorities and new comers, and hit them with lowest salaries). I sometime think may be because the architecture field job is always saturated by the large amount of non-architecture school graduates like technologists and designers that makes more options for offices to get alternative labor to intern architects. I mean there is no scarcity or entry barrier to the profession to make for better prices for architectural work. I will take your advice and see if I can find a job with GC may be the salaries would be respectful
.
Jan 31, 21 8:27 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
I won’t disagree on the possible discrimination aspect, but I would say it’s not as rampant as Aps makes it seem. We’ve had a number of new Canadians and other in the process of citizenship pass through our office and I’d say their success rate is on par with those not considered minority.
You making me more depressed looking at the future .. 10 years experience for 26 CAD/hr ! How this long experience and countless hours in every aspect of architectural work are rewarded by this rate. I hope things change and our profession gets more valued. We aren't less that doctors, nurses, or any other professional in term of years of study and service to the society. Really there is something wrong.
Jan 31, 21 8:37 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
We are much much much less important than nurses and doctors. The 26/hr and 10y exp is on the low side, but it’s not like there are gigs out there for $80k/y for your typical staff architects in Canada. You either need to get into ownership territory, get into large A&E with specialization or switch to construction sector.
Get out while you still can... you will peak out at 70k-75k.... as a senior designer... that’s your cap. Your next jump is a principal at a company or doing your own thing. Starting your own thing will be like starting out as an intern all over again. Unless you can poach some big clients on your way out. Which would be illegal in most instances
depending on your contract
you have to look at the jobs that the person is given (are they always doing the Door Schedule?), the assignments (are they put on the new juicy job that the office just got or are they finishing off an old job crappy job that nobody wants to work on any more), the team the person he or she is being put on (bunch of losers or a bunch of gung-ho, enthusiastic types), the promotions, the advancement, the raises, are they being sent back to school for some courses or additional training, even stupid little things like are they given an old junky computer or something relatively new, who is first in, who is first out, is there a high turnover rate amongst the foreigners...compare some of these things to other co-workers who are not visible minority...some of the signs of discrimination are subtle, very subtle, but they are unfortunately there to some level.
Jan 31, 21 9:21 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Like I said, I don't disagree that there is discrimination. Perhaps this is something you would see more of in the larger offices.
Jan 31, 21 9:30 pm ·
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archi_dude
Non you are racist until you admit how racist you are.
The discrimination mentioned in this thread is bullshit. Yes it does exist, but he is getting paid fairly per his experience. I am familiar with the London Ontario market and have an idea at which firm he is at.::
Feb 1, 21 1:11 am ·
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OneLostArchitect
I’ve been in a lot of crappy firms and I moved on when I didn’t see fit. The profession doesn’t pay well unless you are in one of the top 3.
Feb 1, 21 1:13 am ·
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MA1990
OneLostArchitect,
You may think it is fair payment, but I do not think so.
Feb 1, 21 10:11 am ·
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Non Sequitur
What would be "fair" in your opinion?
For example, $20 to $28/hr is what I see for intern arch. The highest of those wages are for those who get face time with clients, review shop drawings, do CA, etc... above that wage, then you're either senior designer/tech or a licensed arch with increased QA and site responsibilities.
I think 26 would be good, as I do complicated work ( I am not the type limited to door schedules or repetitive no brain work), I do design, studies, top notch renderings, complex construction detailing, and BIM work), my experience 2 years in Canada, and 3 other years in my home country for big projects. Regarding site and construction administration work, how can I do it when I am not allowed to?? or when senior employees just keep it for themselves. I want to take more responsibilities and start taking a different role, but I am not allowed to. Adding to that the work environment that changed when owner decided to leave it for young son and daughter to manage immaturely and decide who takes which work. Anyway I left, and searching for other options and a better work environment or may be finding a better career. I am considering all the option to decide what I can do with my life.
Feb 1, 21 10:31 am ·
·
OneLostArchitect
mohamedahmed, i know its not fair... but this is the profession we are in. if you are looking for a easy way to get into the magical (not so magical these days) six digit salary... you are going to be deeply disappointed.
^so you worked in a shitty office. There are plenty of those around, unfortunately. Every position has it's ceiling and it's not in an office's advantage to rush staff up the salary ladder if they don't expect them to evolve outside of the role they were originally hired to do (CAD/BIM/CGI monkey, for example). The average college arch tech coming fresh out of school is able to compete for intern-arch jobs (and in most cases, are more qualified to do it). They will have significantly less (if any) student loans and will be younger.
You need more than drafting skills to compete so, like mentioned before, ask about scope of responsibilities when interviewing. If you don't make your intentions known during the interview process than you're likely to be disappointed if X months down the line you're still crunching out renderings.
Good luck.
Side note, as a licensed OAA professional, I grant you an hour for your intern requirements (it counts, honestly). Put it under office management in a misc projects.
The pay can be low in this profession - especially when compared to the cost of living in larger cities.
Way back in 2002 I started out at $14 (USD) an an hour in a community of 200,000. Over eight years my pay nearly doubled.
I now work in a community of around 200,000 people making around $36 an hour. Not a huge salary but we're comfortable.
The thing is that the larger cities near me (Denver, Salt Lake) the pay is about $10K higher however the cost of living is about 5x higher than where I currently live.
Good luck!
Feb 1, 21 10:37 am ·
·
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Is it time to switch careers?
I am writing this thread seeking the advice of the board members.
I am 29 years old Intern architect, I graduated class 1st all my study years, then worked as a TA for sometime, then for the last 5 years as an intern architect.
I got my Education outside the US and Canada, but was able to get my education accepted and have been working for two years in Canada as an Intern.
My problem lies in the extremely low salaries that I see in the profession, and it seems to be the case every place I do a job interview in. I get paid 23 an hour and my hour is charged to clients at 85 rate. I totally understand that there are office expenses, insurance, software, ..etc.
But the years on education and the amount of time I spend working in multimillion dollar projects, whether in studies, design, and detailing, are not well compensated compared to other jobs that require less effort, skills, and knowledge.
In addition to that, I am struggling to get specific internship hours that employers not interested in letting me do, like site visits that is totally dominated by senior architects.
In 2 years of work I got only 5 hours site visits and I still have about 115 hours remaining. Whatever I do they just do not allow me to get the hours.
Other offices are no difference they just want my design and construction documentation skills and that is it.
Now I am thinking of taking a year or two off work and totally dedicate my time and energy to self study programming, as I found it a rewarding career for smart and hard working individuals that I am sure that most architecture graduates are.
Do you think that it is a wise idea to take this step?
So, with 2 years of canadian experience, getting $23cad/hr (or roughly 46k/year) is sorta the norm. Location will affect this, obviously, but junior & intern staff don't really get much higher than about $55k/year these days. Your billing rate is x4 your wage so that's also reasonable but you have to know that not every hour you work and receive pay for is actually billed to a paying client.
Anyways, 2 things to take from your post. The first is that if your current office in unwilling to give you site exp, then you need to get the fuck out of dodge, pardoner mon français. Getting your boots dirty and working the site and CA is the first step from separating yourself from the production crew. Not only do you get face time with GC but you will learn how your drawings get converted into build stuff and address problems on the spot. Note that you actually have more than 115hr left... because that number is just the minimum cut-off. That category requires twice that split between site and CA. So either make your case known to your current employer or look for another office. Just ask the right questions during the interview to see how the treat their employees' growth. Our office does this and I've often dragged interns and designers onto job sites to explain how shit works in real time. Even for our staff that is not expected to deal with site, when I do the CA on gigs they were involved with, I will show them the process.
If you really want to look at more education, look into construction management college level diplomas. Every local college is pumping out students from these things and every GC or large landlord, developer are snapping up these kids and throwing them into the field. You can't self-study this stuff tho.
Good luck.
Thank you for your reply. Actually I am likely to leave my office soon, as I reached a dead end with senior architects who refuses my many requests to be involved even in a minor way in site visits.
What is the type of firm and clients you’re currently workin in? Location? Try to look at opportunities instead of $/hr figures.
It is an architectural firm (not design/build) in London, ON. Clients are mostly Universities/ colleges (Fanshawe college, U of Western, U of Waterloo) , large scale residential development ( multi phase apartments developments) and commercial ( commercial pads, big box stores), but we rarely do detached homes, so mostly OBC part 3 buildings fully BIM. The office also goes in joint ventures with Diamond schmitt and other big firms. I totally get your point to search for opportunity not money to learn more and have a better value. If I got an opportunity in a really good firm, money will not be of the top priority, as the experience, and connections will make up for the lower salary in the near future ( but sadly all interviews are in small firms not willing to pay well, and doing the same type of projects that I am used to). However, I believe good firms are firms which values its employees p rofessionally and financially.
Thanks for the clarification. London is not the place you want to be if you're looking to advance your options. It's a sorta in a useless part of the 401... too far from the GTA to be involved and not big enough to have it's own identify. It does not help that many projects there are done by other Ontario firms. I know my office has a few out there (London, Cambridge, Waterloo, Windsor) and we're based in Ottawa. You will need to find a place that gives you more tasks than just BIM and sometimes, smaller firms keep the same crew from start to finish. I can't imagine any office paying less than $23/hr for someone with a few years exp.
Everything is imaginable, recently got 3 interviews, one ended up offering 21 /hr in Waterloo, 20 hr in Scarborough area(Toronto), and the third was offering -you will not believe - 18 an hour (Toronto) :D .. Note: I have 2500+ Canadian Internship hours ( Mostly category A experience - Design / Construction Documents) and really good projects list. I hope that offices tell me before taking the time travelling from London for an interview their budget for the new employee.
Well... thanks for proving my assumptions wrong. Those are some rough offers.
I'll be blunt: do what you need to do to get your license. If that means changing employers or even taking a pay cut, do it. I do ok as a non-licensed designer in the US but there would be many more doors open with a license. From what I've seen it often takes about 6-10 years of experience before you start ramping up your income. If making big money is important to you, a lot of things will need to fall in your favor, and maybe being the typical office architect is not the best position for you. But if you have the license you'll have more options.
Thank you for your input in my situation. From what I see it looks like what you say is typical in term of salary increases corresponding to years of work. It is a painfully slow process to get higher salaries for a typical office architect. I hope to find a place that can make my transition process from intern to a licensed architect process fast enough to have more flexibility. However, no one seems to answer one of my options to change careers. I know it is long process. At the same time I can't see more experienced friends making much more after double my experience.
NS is correct in what he is saying. There is another major factor in your low salary. It's called discrimination, pure-and-simple. You are a foreigner in a, I'm guessing, Anglo world. Even if you move to another office, you will encounter some of that shiet. They will probably use the excuse that you don't have much Canadian experience, and that you are not registered. It's BS! I have seen this scenario time-and-again. I have spoken to a Iranian structural engineer who graduated with PhD from Manchester University and who had something like 12 years experience in UK, I think, yet he was told that he doesn't have enough experience for Canada. So, he was taking Revit classes at a local community college. Fine, when it comes to wood frame housing, but when it comes to other stuff, I'm sure he could have designed circles around some of the locally graduated engineers. To add insult to the injury, Canadian Embassy in Tehran, essentially, told him, "Oh, there is all kinds of work in Canada. And it's well paid too, plus you'll be welcomed with open arms". I know, he should have looked into it more before selling his house there, and coming to a new country for work, but hey...
See if you can get a job with a General Contractor. You probably will get paid more just counting delivery trucks than you will in a studio.
I do not know, I am always trying to get myself out of the victim position and not to blame discrimination for it (Although most of my interviews in offices which targets visible minorities and new comers, and hit them with lowest salaries). I sometime think may be because the architecture field job is always saturated by the large amount of non-architecture school graduates like technologists and designers that makes more options for offices to get alternative labor to intern architects. I mean there is no scarcity or entry barrier to the profession to make for better prices for architectural work. I will take your advice and see if I can find a job with GC may be the salaries would be respectful .
I won’t disagree on the possible discrimination aspect, but I would say it’s not as rampant as Aps makes it seem. We’ve had a number of new Canadians and other in the process of citizenship pass through our office and I’d say their success rate is on par with those not considered minority.
Welcome to the profession. I have 10 years experience and was getting 26 loonies an hour not at my last job... so you are doing quite well
You making me more depressed looking at the future .. 10 years experience for 26 CAD/hr ! How this long experience and countless hours in every aspect of architectural work are rewarded by this rate. I hope things change and our profession gets more valued. We aren't less that doctors, nurses, or any other professional in term of years of study and service to the society. Really there is something wrong.
We are much much much less important than nurses and doctors. The 26/hr and 10y exp is on the low side, but it’s not like there are gigs out there for $80k/y for your typical staff architects in Canada. You either need to get into ownership territory, get into large A&E with specialization or switch to construction sector.
Get out while you still can... you will peak out at 70k-75k.... as a senior designer... that’s your cap. Your next jump is a principal at a company or doing your own thing. Starting your own thing will be like starting out as an intern all over again. Unless you can poach some big clients on your way out. Which would be illegal in most instances
depending on your contract
I'd try anything in construction/facilities management. Once you're pigeon holed into production it's hard to get out.
Non Sequitur,
you have to look at the jobs that the person is given (are they always doing the Door Schedule?), the assignments (are they put on the new juicy job that the office just got or are they finishing off an old job crappy job that nobody wants to work on any more), the team the person he or she is being put on (bunch of losers or a bunch of gung-ho, enthusiastic types), the promotions, the advancement, the raises, are they being sent back to school for some courses or additional training, even stupid little things like are they given an old junky computer or something relatively new, who is first in, who is first out, is there a high turnover rate amongst the foreigners...compare some of these things to other co-workers who are not visible minority...some of the signs of discrimination are subtle, very subtle, but they are unfortunately there to some level.
Like I said, I don't disagree that there is discrimination. Perhaps this is something you would see more of in the larger offices.
Non you are racist until you admit how racist you are.
The discrimination mentioned in this thread is bullshit. Yes it does exist, but he is getting paid fairly per his experience. I am familiar with the London Ontario market and have an idea at which firm he is at.::
I’ve been in a lot of crappy firms and I moved on when I didn’t see fit. The profession doesn’t pay well unless you are in one of the top 3.
OneLostArchitect, You may think it is fair payment, but I do not think so.
What would be "fair" in your opinion?
For example, $20 to $28/hr is what I see for intern arch. The highest of those wages are for those who get face time with clients, review shop drawings, do CA, etc... above that wage, then you're either senior designer/tech or a licensed arch with increased QA and site responsibilities.
figures are in loonies for our American readers.
More to my above comment, look here:
https://salaries.archinect.com...
Filter by 3y exp and non-licensed and you'll see a spread of junior/intern arch wages across other cities.
I think 26 would be good, as I do complicated work ( I am not the type limited to door schedules or repetitive no brain work), I do design, studies, top notch renderings, complex construction detailing, and BIM work), my experience 2 years in Canada, and 3 other years in my home country for big projects. Regarding site and construction administration work, how can I do it when I am not allowed to?? or when senior employees just keep it for themselves. I want to take more responsibilities and start taking a different role, but I am not allowed to. Adding to that the work environment that changed when owner decided to leave it for young son and daughter to manage immaturely and decide who takes which work. Anyway I left, and searching for other options and a better work environment or may be finding a better career. I am considering all the option to decide what I can do with my life.
mohamedahmed, i know its not fair... but this is the profession we are in. if you are looking for a easy way to get into the magical (not so magical these days) six digit salary... you are going to be deeply disappointed.
^so you worked in a shitty office. There are plenty of those around, unfortunately. Every position has it's ceiling and it's not in an office's advantage to rush staff up the salary ladder if they don't expect them to evolve outside of the role they were originally hired to do (CAD/BIM/CGI monkey, for example). The average college arch tech coming fresh out of school is able to compete for intern-arch jobs (and in most cases, are more qualified to do it). They will have significantly less (if any) student loans and will be younger.
You need more than drafting skills to compete so, like mentioned before, ask about scope of responsibilities when interviewing. If you don't make your intentions known during the interview process than you're likely to be disappointed if X months down the line you're still crunching out renderings.
Good luck.
Side note, as a licensed OAA professional, I grant you an hour for your intern requirements (it counts, honestly). Put it under office management in a misc projects.
The pay can be low in this profession - especially when compared to the cost of living in larger cities.
Way back in 2002 I started out at $14 (USD) an an hour in a community of 200,000. Over eight years my pay nearly doubled.
I now work in a community of around 200,000 people making around $36 an hour. Not a huge salary but we're comfortable.
The thing is that the larger cities near me (Denver, Salt Lake) the pay is about $10K higher however the cost of living is about 5x higher than where I currently live.
Good luck!
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