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Knowledge in dealing with MEP for architects

leonizer

In dealing with mechanical, electrical, plumbing engineers. What extent of knowledge are architects required to have in coordinating their work?



 
Feb 7, 20 1:19 pm
Non Sequitur

You need to know 2 things about your MEP consultant's scope of work:

  • Enough about the sizes and layout of their services to determine when things are/will be in conflict because never in the history of the work has one engineer bothered to check with another (even when it's literally the same person doing both tasks) if their shit is in the way of another's shit.
  • Enough about what they do so that you can call them out on their bullshit when they say that something can't be done.
Feb 7, 20 2:10 pm  · 
5  · 
bowling_ball

1000% what NS just wrote.

Feb 7, 20 3:28 pm  · 
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Wood Guy

^ +1. Especially the second item. Always ask for their Manual J calculations, and learn enough to know when they are faking inputs to get the outputs they want.

Feb 7, 20 4:04 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

Wood guy, for me, I just keep poking at their work until they confess all they did was copy the systems from a previous similar project.

Feb 7, 20 4:07 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

This is one of the most concise and useful summaries I've ever read pertaining to our work.

Feb 7, 20 4:35 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

I only aim for feature comments.

Feb 7, 20 6:08 pm  · 
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threeohdoor

General system operations and requirements. If you're calculating loads (other than a back-of-napkin types for magnitudes), you've gone too far. You should know how a particular system would impact other systems and general design. For example: Do you have a slab cut for a duct? What are the dimensions? Does it require extra steel bracing? Would it behoove you to locate ducts and risers in the same chase? Can you mix water/duct or electrical/duct or whatever? Check code. 

It also helps to have an idea of system cost (again, order of magnitude, not necessarily the exact number). 

Also have a decent understanding of the deliverables to the client and to the AHJ for each trade. You might think you just need a PL set, but did the site connect go out? Backflow? Fire Department requirements? Being familiar with what other sets need to be produced will help firm up your ability to coordinate across trades.


Feb 7, 20 2:14 pm  · 
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gwharton

Ducts go where ducts go. I have been informed by a succession of mechanical engineers that this is a fundamental truth of existence which may not be challenged.

Feb 7, 20 3:17 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

I would like to contest this point. Ducts go were they go, however, if the path they are taking is fucking stupid, I will ask for an itinerary change. Sorry if that means the M has to actually do some calcs and resize the ducts but I ain't lowering my ceiling 10" because you're too lazy to make the effort. 

Literally a conversation I have in every project.

Feb 7, 20 3:48 pm  · 
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gwharton

WHY ARE YOU ANTI-SCIENCE???

Feb 7, 20 3:57 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

I'm anti-laziness and anti-incompetence.

Feb 7, 20 4:08 pm  · 
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gwharton

I am sorry to inform you that you have chosen the wrong profession, then.

Feb 7, 20 4:11 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

You're right, I should have been a rockstar astronaut and part-time cacti arborist.

Feb 7, 20 4:18 pm  · 
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gwharton

Much more sensible choice.

Feb 7, 20 4:31 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

life as an engineer must be so simple, there is only one answer always

Feb 7, 20 4:33 pm  · 
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atelier nobody

I just had a big fight with a mechanical contractor over a duct layout that "couldn't be done." His "solution" involved dropping my ceiling to 7'-6" (with top of glazing already installed at 8'-9").

Feb 7, 20 4:51 pm  · 
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Non Sequitur

The answer is 42.

Feb 7, 20 6:07 pm  · 
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atelier nobody

tintt - One of the only 2 projects I've ever worked on that ended up in court was largely because the structural engineer insisted there was only one right way to do something (which just happened to blow the client's budget).

Feb 7, 20 6:17 pm  · 
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Almosthip7

Structural ducts are always answer

Feb 7, 20 6:53 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

I have the best bad duct route story ever. Imagine wrapping a duct around a column in order to support it. But it wasn't a column, it was even more bizarre.

Feb 7, 20 7:31 pm  · 
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BIMBoisRUs

I am aware I am late to the discussion, but Mechanical Engineer / BIM Manager here. Although I do get the gist of the messages here and many do have merit based on the typical MEP designer/engineer, this is not always the case. For example, I personally have never just copied layouts from previous projects and always have discussions with the Architect upfront to suggest multiple layouts and strategies that try to minimize the impact to the aesthetics. This is not always possible as there are a LOT of utilities that have to be considered - not just the ductwork and mechanical equipment. I also have horror stories from Architect's that couldn't do simple math when the total required duct free area required exceeded the available 9" above ceiling, so it is a reciprocal thing where some people just aren't good at their profession.

The main issue I run into currently is there is little to no interstitial space due to the higher decorative ceilings (and framing), and the structure frequently prevents most if not all duct routing solutions because they are designing at the same time in most Revit projects (they should be almost done prior to MEP coming onboard). Also, the more you raise the ceilings and include massive curtain walls and windows, the higher the required loads and airflows become. This of course translates to larger ducts and equipment.

I would be interested in having a constructive discussion with Architects and I.D. designers to explore the driving factors on the design decisions and potential implications from both sides, and how to best resolve conflicts to get the best of both worlds.

Any takers?

Nov 23, 22 6:07 pm  · 
1  · 
Non Sequitur

You must be a unicorn then because no one has ever even come close to offering such services in my area.

Nov 23, 22 6:40 pm  · 
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Kinsbergen

Tough guy talk blah blah

Nov 26, 22 8:56 am  · 
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BIMBoisRUs

I'm still here. I wouldn't call it a service,  I'm just interested in learning what the design constraints are from a different perspective and how people deal with them.

Nov 26, 22 10:41 am  · 
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kjpn

Unless your MEP engineer is developing drawings for very simple and conventional systems, you need to be careful and do your homework to make sure they are doing a thorough and correct job. I am working on a large residential project utilizing a lot of hydronic systems and our first mep engineer was completely screwing it up and leaving a critical amount of scope undeveloped and undocumented.  I had no idea the drawings were so problematic until we started talking to other MEP firms and showed them their drawings.


It’s kind of a no brainer that architects need to conceptually consider how heating and cooling is administered and placed in their designs. But there is another level of attention to the MEP documentation completion and system design functionality that is very important that we don’t have easy insight into without having more experience. The final thing is having the attention to detail as a designer in terms of adjusting the location and size of various mep elements (registers, grilles, drains, devices etc) in the space. 

Nov 26, 22 9:21 pm  · 
2  · 
BIMBoisRUs

I would wholeheartedly agree with you, and I think this is where nost of the disconnect occurs. Are there any rules of thumb that Architects utilize for typical MEP utility requirements?
Do most people here

Nov 28, 22 10:20 am  · 
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BIMBoisRUs

*use Revit or CAD? Sorry apparently it sends messages when you hit return instead of starting a new paragraph.

Nov 28, 22 10:21 am  · 
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kjpn

I think revit is more prevalent for people who need dedicated
MEP consultants

Nov 28, 22 5:48 pm  · 
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BIMBoisRUs

That makes sense. Not that anyone cares, but I had a meeting with one of our Architectural clients today to discuss how we can better coordinate on all projects, especially Revit. It went surprisingly well and it seemed like we were on the same page concerning how tweaking small things could help the other disciplines with design and modeling. As I continue to explore more of the Architectural nuisances, what (in your opinion) what would you consider the number 1 thing a MEP team could do to help the project overall? Just adaptability and minimizing conflicts or something else? Appreciate the information thus far.

Nov 30, 22 7:34 pm  · 
1  · 

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