I was wondering if any of you ever tried to hire an architect so they can learn from him/her.
I'm a 28 years old architecture school graduate who never really worked in the field of architecture. I graduated then started working as a drafter for steel fabricators, then last year, I established a steel detailing firm and work has been good.
At this point of my life, I can't leave my business and peruse another new path (Entry level architect position) unless I want to scarify 70% of my income (which I think would be crazy thing to do).
My goal is that I practice architecture on the side. I want to accumulate enough knowledge to be able to take small projects here and there and then grow organically from there. I think of it as something that could be an additional stream of income along with steel detailing.
I have been looking to find a part time entry level position that I can fit into my schedule. Unfortunately, it's very very very hard to find part-time jobs, especially for entry level....
That led me to think about hiring a young licensed architect, maybe someone I can meet with after work and maybe Saturdays and help him/her with their work as long as they take the time to train me (and of course, give me those NCARB hours I need to be able to apply for the license test at some point in the future)
Has anyone done something similar? Is what I'm thinking about is achievable in your opinion?
This question comes up here fairly often: the problem with this scheme is that it does not count toward "NCARB hours", because in the settings that require supervision by a licensed professional, the person accumulating the experience must be an employee and must be getting paid for their work in that setting.
How would they know if someone is an employee to someone? And if they're getting paid? Do they ask for tax income and pay stubs? and why you call it a scheme? I didn't say I want to not honorably achieve the required hours, I said I want to hire someone so I can have more flexibility in time and because no one would hire me because I'm a business owner and they know the moment I will learn enough, I will go on my own. An architect said that to me directly actually and I agree with him
Feb 4, 20 8:57 am ·
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Non Sequitur
IDP hours only count under direct supervision and yes, they will check the authenticity of your hours claimed. I'm sure it'll tick all sorts of ethical issues if you're paying an advisor to claim hours... for both parties. Paying for experience is not experienced earned. If you want a license, earn it the normal way. No short-cuts, unfortunately.
what are the procedure they follow to check the authenticity? For the second time I say, I'm not trying to have a shortcut, I mentioned above that because I have my own business, no one is willing to hire me part time knowing that I'm a business owner....They know that they will spend 2-3 years of their energy training me just so I leave on my own when I learn enough
...
Feb 4, 20 9:36 am ·
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Non Sequitur
You're trying to take a shortcut, it's obvious and it's unethical (which goes against the whole self-governed professional stuff we architects are supposed to follow). If it worked this way, every big developer would have an arch license.
Not every big developer went to architecture school for 6 years
Feb 4, 20 9:46 am ·
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Non Sequitur
...and you're point is? You don't get a license because you paid the tuition, you earn it by working for it. You're essentially asking if it's ok to buy one, which is clearly a big fat no.
Feb 4, 20 9:52 am ·
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curtkram
developers aren't architects, just as steel detailers aren't architects. it's a different job.
All I said that I want to work for someone and doing real work helping them with their real projects, I just thought maybe I should pay for that because no one is hiring me because I'm obviously entrepreneurial from my resume and who wants to spend their time and energy training someone that will not last for long with them after he learns what he wants to learn..
However, I see what you trying to say from your prospective
Feb 4, 20 10:11 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
NCARB's verification of the validity of AXP hours appears to be nonexistent. I have seen people do an end run around their employers and get personal friends who are licensed architects to sign off for way more hours than they actually worked. In one instance, we observed some questionable AXP activity by a former employee and contacted NCARB. We were told that investigating faked/inflated AXP hours is a matter for state boards and not NCARB.
Feb 4, 20 1:24 pm ·
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kjdt
NCARB doesn't investigate things reported by third parties - they refer all of that to the states. But they do require additional documentation of experience if anything gets flagged - I had to provide copies of time sheets and W2s to prove some simultaneous part-time jobs because the overlapping dates tripped an alarm in their system.
I don't believe there's an architecture cartel, but I do think that Architecture could use a shot in the arm from other areas of interest. A method for people who cannot make formal schooling work to become an integral part of architecture would be great. I've never understood the mentality of firms to only hire employees that are eligible for licensure. It is not, in my opinion, any measure of ones competence.
I think that a lot of your difficulties with getting an architecture job may be coming from how you present yourself, since there is a lot you could do to improve your applications. Ex. from a quick glance at your Archinect profile, and the potential cover letter which you shared on it:
You are starting off on the wrong footing by apologizing for not having direct architectural experience.
It also isn’t adding anything to mention your age at all, since that’s unnecessary information.
The fluffy description of your childhood dreams isn’t doing you any favors, since all it tells an employer is that you might not know how to send relevant and concise email communications. Maybe consider adding some more concrete examples of how you demonstrated those aspirations by working on a specific project.
Having an online degree mentioned in your resume is also a red flag.
I noticed a capitalization mistake, so you should proofread your cover letters more thoroughly.
You should make your cover letters more directly targeted at the specific firms you apply for.
Overall I am guessing that you should probably consider hiring someone to help you with your cover letter/resume before you give up on finding an architecture job.
(I didn't see your portfolio until after I wrote that out, but I would be making an understatement to say that it also needs a lot of scrutiny and some very heavy revisions. Those swoops and curves look particularly amateurish. Adding in some of the content from your jobs up to this point would work much better.)
Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually changed the cover letter awhile ago but failed to change it on this website, I just updated it. Thanks for mentioning that. I didn't know that online degrees are red flag. Southern Illinois University is an accredited college!
I didn't think of adding steel detailing samples to my portfolio, thought employers will not care much about it, but I see your point. I do a lot of stairs which may spark the interest of some employers! Thanks for the feedback overall
Feb 4, 20 11:01 am ·
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Outsideofspace
I need to acquire more experience myself before I can really comment on exactly how much of your background
would be perceived as being relevant, but AFAIK the fact that you already have experience with detailing and have engaged so extensively in work adjacent to the practical side of the construction process seems like an asset which a lot of your peers might not have. I would hope that an open-minded firm could see your willingness to engage with that level of practical thinking as suggesting that you might have a desirable capability to learn about other aspects of construction as well.
Thank you sir. I've been working in this field since I was freshman at architecture school. I've seen it all in the steel industry. Hopefully one day I can say that about architecture as well.
The interpretations of this question/scenario are all over the place - I'm not totally sure why.
I read this as someone looking to pick-up a side-job on weekends and nights working for a licensed architect to slowly chip away at NCARB hours. This is totally fine, if you are doing the work and getting paid for it. Clearly there is nothing wrong with this when the stamping architect exerts reasonable control over the process and both parties are in agreement as to the intent/setup. Go for it! This is a great way to finish the process.
What you cannot do is pay a licensed architect to vouch for your hours when they were not actually done... but I dont think you ever asked that, and I have no idea why people seemed to think that was the case in the first place.
Feb 4, 20 11:15 am ·
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Non Sequitur
OP wants to pay someone to mentor him in order to claim exp hours under IDP.
Exactly! I Never asked for a shady practice, people always assume the worse.... All I said is that I want to have a regular part time job but maybe pay the architect in the beginning at least for their energy and time until I learn enough to be helpful, then they can pay me. Teaching someone is very very time consuming... Why anyone would do it for free if they know the employee will fly away later. I just quit a part time position at an architectural office, do you know what she made me do for 2 months..90% of the time I was field measuring existing conditions AND WHEN I TOLD HER, I didn't come to you to learn field measurements, I know that already, she got angry, she basically wanted me to field measure all project she has and barely teach me anything..no thank you, I'd rather pay for someone and learn something useful. New York is full of sharks that just want to take advantage of your willing to learn and teach you nothing so you can satay salve for them
Feb 4, 20 11:27 am ·
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Non Sequitur
yeah, I stand by my original assumption. You're looking for a shortcut. Suck it up, field measuring is a very important part of the learning process. I think you have an attitude problem, fix that first, then maybe you'll be a useful employee to someone, but as you paint it now, you're right, it's not worth anyone's time to "train" someone like you.
I had no problem with F.M. She wanted me to measure other people's projects, projects that I will never work on. I told her I'm glad to measure the jobs I will be involved in but not the ones that I don't even know why I'm measuring them...Go fix your pity self before judging people like if you know me.. You're telling me to "suck it up" like if my life was depending on your opinion...No one told you to comment on my tread to start with
Feb 4, 20 11:48 am ·
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Non Sequitur
That you for confirming my above comments. When you're an employee, you do as you're told within the description of your position. Plenty of folks in offices do tasks that are unrelated to whatever projects they may be assigned too... and more often than not, plenty are moved around as work is required. That's the nature of entry-level gigs and is a huge aspect of the learning process as one gets into this profession. You don't seem to understand this and want to skip the line.
Feb 4, 20 11:53 am ·
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Bench
Ah. I missed this part somewhere in the conversation. There is definitely a problem with the employee (you) paying an employer (architect) for the "privilege" of being mentored. Not only within architecture licensing for NCARB, but also just basic decency and not to mention labor laws
Feb 4, 20 11:56 am ·
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kjdt
The OP is not proposing that the OP will be paid. The OP is proposing that the OP will pay the architect.
Feb 4, 20 2:49 pm ·
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kjdt
Yes I know Rick - I already provided that answer last night. The OP isn't still asking is it ok with NCARB - he's asking how would NCARB know, if he chooses to do it anyway? It's possible that NCARB would not know, as long as nothing submitted raises any questions. You never know though what will get you flagged for further scrutiny. When I was doing IDP they got hung up on the fact that I had some slightly overlapping employment dates (working 2 part-time jobs that overlapped by a matter of weeks) and they requested copies of time sheets and W2s to substantiate my employment. If they requested that for some reason, and the OP couldn't provide it, it might get his application kicked to eternal NCARB limbo.
My biggest issue with this, among many, is the relationship, or power dynamic, it would set up with you and your supervisor. If you are paying them, there is an inherent conflict of interest in them supervising your work and approving the hours that you may submit for their approval in the AXP process.
If NCARB won't allow contract work because the supervisor doesn't have direct control
weird, I had deleted that second paragraph before I posted ... guess I need to finish the thought now.
If NCARB won't allow contract work because the supervisor doesn't have direct control over the employee, I can't see them allowing this set up where the employee won't have direct control over the employer.
Feb 4, 20 12:14 pm ·
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kjdt
The partnership thing only works in states that allow an unlicensed person to be a partner. There are nearly as many variations on the rules as there are states: states in which no licensed ownership is required for an architecture firm; states in which nobody unlicensed can have any ownership; states in which an unlicensed person can't own more than 49% of the firm; states in which at least two thirds of owners be licensed; and so forth.
Years ago that disgruntled unlicensed Pittsburgh guy was on here all the time scheming to start a firm with 99 people who were seeking IDP/AXP experience, and one licensed partner - that didn't work in his state but he was going to shop it around to others - I wonder if he ever found the spot for his 99-intern firm - maybe the OP can join it.
Feb 4, 20 3:11 pm ·
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kjdt
His resume says he's in New York. New York doesn't allow any unlicensed partners in firms providing architectural services (there are certain exceptions for foreign corporations, but for the OP's purposes any arrangement in which he'd be a partner for purposes of collecting AXP experience isn't going to work there.) He could pull this off if he and the willing architect were to incorporate in, say, Massachusetts.
try part timing the steel detailing and full time on architecture. it takes at least 2-3 months to get a full-time new grad up to speed and useful in an office. no one wants to waste the effort for a part time employee who is openly looking to make this practice a hobby secondary to the money job.
also, the work doesn't get easier with experience. there isn't going to be a crossover point where it suddenly makes sense for you to switch FT to architecture if you don't want to do that now.
Feb 5, 20 9:47 am ·
·
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Have anyone here hired a licensed architect for learning purposes??
Hello,
I was wondering if any of you ever tried to hire an architect so they can learn from him/her.
I'm a 28 years old architecture school graduate who never really worked in the field of architecture. I graduated then started working as a drafter for steel fabricators, then last year, I established a steel detailing firm and work has been good.
At this point of my life, I can't leave my business and peruse another new path (Entry level architect position) unless I want to scarify 70% of my income (which I think would be crazy thing to do).
My goal is that I practice architecture on the side. I want to accumulate enough knowledge to be able to take small projects here and there and then grow organically from there. I think of it as something that could be an additional stream of income along with steel detailing.
I have been looking to find a part time entry level position that I can fit into my schedule. Unfortunately, it's very very very hard to find part-time jobs, especially for entry level....
That led me to think about hiring a young licensed architect, maybe someone I can meet with after work and maybe Saturdays and help him/her with their work as long as they take the time to train me (and of course, give me those NCARB hours I need to be able to apply for the license test at some point in the future)
Has anyone done something similar? Is what I'm thinking about is achievable in your opinion?
Any input will be much much appreciated!
Thanks
This question comes up here fairly often: the problem with this scheme is that it does not count toward "NCARB hours", because in the settings that require supervision by a licensed professional, the person accumulating the experience must be an employee and must be getting paid for their work in that setting.
How would they know if someone is an employee to someone? And if they're getting paid? Do they ask for tax income and pay stubs? and why you call it a scheme? I didn't say I want to not honorably achieve the required hours, I said I want to hire someone so I can have more flexibility in time and because no one would hire me because I'm a business owner and they know the moment I will learn enough, I will go on my own. An architect said that to me directly actually and I agree with him
IDP hours only count under direct supervision and yes, they will check the authenticity of your hours claimed. I'm sure it'll tick all sorts of ethical issues if you're paying an advisor to claim hours... for both parties. Paying for experience is not experienced earned. If you want a license, earn it the normal way. No short-cuts, unfortunately.
what are the procedure they follow to check the authenticity? For the second time I say, I'm not trying to have a shortcut, I mentioned above that because I have my own business, no one is willing to hire me part time knowing that I'm a business owner....They know that they will spend 2-3 years of their energy training me just so I leave on my own when I learn enough ...
You're trying to take a shortcut, it's obvious and it's unethical (which goes against the whole self-governed professional stuff we architects are supposed to follow). If it worked this way, every big developer would have an arch license.
Not every big developer went to architecture school for 6 years
...and you're point is? You don't get a license because you paid the tuition, you earn it by working for it. You're essentially asking if it's ok to buy one, which is clearly a big fat no.
developers aren't architects, just as steel detailers aren't architects. it's a different job.
All I said that I want to work for someone and doing real work helping them with their real projects, I just thought maybe I should pay for that because no one is hiring me because I'm obviously entrepreneurial from my resume and who wants to spend their time and energy training someone that will not last for long with them after he learns what he wants to learn..
However, I see what you trying to say from your prospective
NCARB's verification of the validity of AXP hours appears to be nonexistent. I have seen people do an end run around their employers and get personal friends who are licensed architects to sign off for way more hours than they actually worked. In one instance, we observed some questionable AXP activity by a former employee and contacted NCARB. We were told that investigating faked/inflated AXP hours is a matter for state boards and not NCARB.
NCARB doesn't investigate things reported by third parties - they refer all of that to the states. But they do require additional documentation of experience if anything gets flagged - I had to provide copies of time sheets and W2s to prove some simultaneous part-time jobs because the overlapping dates tripped an alarm in their system.
Just another case of how the architecture cartel keeps interesting alternative careers away from the profession
I'm fine with that
Not sure what that means.
No one is.
I don't believe there's an architecture cartel, but I do think that Architecture could use a shot in the arm from other areas of interest. A method for people who cannot make formal schooling work to become an integral part of architecture would be great. I've never understood the mentality of firms to only hire employees that are eligible for licensure. It is not, in my opinion, any measure of ones competence.
I think that a lot of your difficulties with getting an architecture job may be coming from how you present yourself, since there is a lot you could do to improve your applications. Ex. from a quick glance at your Archinect profile, and the potential cover letter which you shared on it:
Overall I am guessing that you should probably consider hiring someone to help you with your cover letter/resume before you give up on finding an architecture job.
(I didn't see your portfolio until after I wrote that out, but I would be making an understatement to say that it also needs a lot of scrutiny and some very heavy revisions. Those swoops and curves look particularly amateurish. Adding in some of the content from your jobs up to this point would work much better.)
Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually changed the cover letter awhile ago but failed to change it on this website, I just updated it. Thanks for mentioning that. I didn't know that online degrees are red flag. Southern Illinois University is an accredited college!
I didn't think of adding steel detailing samples to my portfolio, thought employers will not care much about it, but I see your point. I do a lot of stairs which may spark the interest of some employers! Thanks for the feedback overall
I need to acquire more experience myself before I can really comment on exactly how much of your background would be perceived as being relevant, but AFAIK the fact that you already have experience with detailing and have engaged so extensively in work adjacent to the practical side of the construction process seems like an asset which a lot of your peers might not have. I would hope that an open-minded firm could see your willingness to engage with that level of practical thinking as suggesting that you might have a desirable capability to learn about other aspects of construction as well.
Thank you sir. I've been working in this field since I was freshman at architecture school. I've seen it all in the steel industry. Hopefully one day I can say that about architecture as well.
The interpretations of this question/scenario are all over the place - I'm not totally sure why.
I read this as someone looking to pick-up a side-job on weekends and nights working for a licensed architect to slowly chip away at NCARB hours. This is totally fine, if you are doing the work and getting paid for it. Clearly there is nothing wrong with this when the stamping architect exerts reasonable control over the process and both parties are in agreement as to the intent/setup. Go for it! This is a great way to finish the process.
What you cannot do is pay a licensed architect to vouch for your hours when they were not actually done... but I dont think you ever asked that, and I have no idea why people seemed to think that was the case in the first place.
OP wants to pay someone to mentor him in order to claim exp hours under IDP.
Exactly! I Never asked for a shady practice, people always assume the worse.... All I said is that I want to have a regular part time job but maybe pay the architect in the beginning at least for their energy and time until I learn enough to be helpful, then they can pay me. Teaching someone is very very time consuming... Why anyone would do it for free if they know the employee will fly away later. I just quit a part time position at an architectural office, do you know what she made me do for 2 months..90% of the time I was field measuring existing conditions AND WHEN I TOLD HER, I didn't come to you to learn field measurements, I know that already, she got angry, she basically wanted me to field measure all project she has and barely teach me anything..no thank you, I'd rather pay for someone and learn something useful. New York is full of sharks that just want to take advantage of your willing to learn and teach you nothing so you can satay salve for them
yeah, I stand by my original assumption. You're looking for a shortcut. Suck it up, field measuring is a very important part of the learning process. I think you have an attitude problem, fix that first, then maybe you'll be a useful employee to someone, but as you paint it now, you're right, it's not worth anyone's time to "train" someone like you.
I can be equally judgmental toward you but I'm better than that...
Is it judgmental when it's accurate tho? Asking for a friend.
I had no problem with F.M. She wanted me to measure other people's projects, projects that I will never work on. I told her I'm glad to measure the jobs I will be involved in but not the ones that I don't even know why I'm measuring them...Go fix your pity self before judging people like if you know me.. You're telling me to "suck it up" like if my life was depending on your opinion...No one told you to comment on my tread to start with
That you for confirming my above comments. When you're an employee, you do as you're told within the description of your position. Plenty of folks in offices do tasks that are unrelated to whatever projects they may be assigned too... and more often than not, plenty are moved around as work is required. That's the nature of entry-level gigs and is a huge aspect of the learning process as one gets into this profession. You don't seem to understand this and want to skip the line.
Ah. I missed this part somewhere in the conversation. There is definitely a problem with the employee (you) paying an employer (architect) for the "privilege" of being mentored. Not only within architecture licensing for NCARB, but also just basic decency and not to mention labor laws
The OP is not proposing that the OP will be paid. The OP is proposing that the OP will pay the architect.
Yes I know Rick - I already provided that answer last night. The OP isn't still asking is it ok with NCARB - he's asking how would NCARB know, if he chooses to do it anyway? It's possible that NCARB would not know, as long as nothing submitted raises any questions. You never know though what will get you flagged for further scrutiny. When I was doing IDP they got hung up on the fact that I had some slightly overlapping employment dates (working 2 part-time jobs that overlapped by a matter of weeks) and they requested copies of time sheets and W2s to substantiate my employment. If they requested that for some reason, and the OP couldn't provide it, it might get his application kicked to eternal NCARB limbo.
My biggest issue with this, among many, is the relationship, or power dynamic, it would set up with you and your supervisor. If you are paying them, there is an inherent conflict of interest in them supervising your work and approving the hours that you may submit for their approval in the AXP process.
If NCARB won't allow contract work because the supervisor doesn't have direct control
weird, I had deleted that second paragraph before I posted ... guess I need to finish the thought now.
If NCARB won't allow contract work because the supervisor doesn't have direct control over the employee, I can't see them allowing this set up where the employee won't have direct control over the employer.
The partnership thing only works in states that allow an unlicensed person to be a partner. There are nearly as many variations on the rules as there are states: states in which no licensed ownership is required for an architecture firm; states in which nobody unlicensed can have any ownership; states in which an unlicensed person can't own more than 49% of the firm; states in which at least two thirds of owners be licensed; and so forth.
Years ago that disgruntled unlicensed Pittsburgh guy was on here all the time scheming to start a firm with 99 people who were seeking IDP/AXP experience, and one licensed partner - that didn't work in his state but he was going to shop it around to others - I wonder if he ever found the spot for his 99-intern firm - maybe the OP can join it.
His resume says he's in New York. New York doesn't allow any unlicensed partners in firms providing architectural services (there are certain exceptions for foreign corporations, but for the OP's purposes any arrangement in which he'd be a partner for purposes of collecting AXP experience isn't going to work there.) He could pull this off if he and the willing architect were to incorporate in, say, Massachusetts.
How much does the job pay?
Since the OP stated they would loose 70% of their income, I'd say 60% is a good offer.
Being an architect is overrated. Stick to what pays.
try part timing the steel detailing and full time on architecture. it takes at least 2-3 months to get a full-time new grad up to speed and useful in an office. no one wants to waste the effort for a part time employee who is openly looking to make this practice a hobby secondary to the money job.
also, the work doesn't get easier with experience. there isn't going to be a crossover point where it suddenly makes sense for you to switch FT to architecture if you don't want to do that now.
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