The men in leadership are much more interested in using their positions to score sex/ego gratification/power and otherwise feed their baser needs and instincts than to move the profession forward. It’s sad. The planet is burning and instead of working towards the greater good, they are working to get laid.
It’s not only tolerated, it’s institutionalized and entire firms are constructed around this dynamic and protecting the perpetrators.
I saw some of this in big practices years ago. I eventually opted to going into my own small practice as I did not relate to corporate culture. I was young and naive at the time so do not know what was happening but now as a much older person would not be surprised. Back then I would imagine people would have been silent.
Not only is there sexism, but race discrimination as well. In my experience and that of other in my class we get different results on which name we use. For me if I use my white last name firms call expressing interest, using my latin last name no results. Using both last names the results will vary. I hace been told when applying that I do not fit the company culture, and I can tell that the moment they hear an accent they loose all interest. I've heard and seen office harassment towards both females and minorities. Basically anyone whose not a white man is not welcome. The treatment of women is disgusting and sickening, yet normalized. I left the field because of this.
In my limited experience it was the small firms that had the issues with racism and sexism. Keep in mind I've worked for only six firms in my career but the small ones where rampant with sexism, racism, and nepotism. This was due to the older partner (60 plus) that was running the firm.
It pains me to read this and I am so sorry that this has been your experience. Our firm is co-owned by myself (a man) and a woman. We have made it our top priority to ensure that not only is everyone treated equally, we quickly quash the stigma of men vs women with any client who directs all conversations towards myself while ignoring any women in the room.
While I do understand that this industry can be as you described, please know that there are good people out there that do not abide such actions, and hold women in the same regard as the men. No one should be looked down upon or made to feel uncomfortable based on their gender. If you've got the talent and the drive, it does not matter whether you are a man or a woman.
As a female architect, I've noticed a lot of subtle sexism in the industry more so than outright harassment... although I have personally experienced that as well. My current ~60 person firm has a big problem with this because it's a pyramid arrangement of power. The big boss at the top (starchitect, old white male) sets the tone and the power underneath him is comprised of men. We have 1 female principal in our office and currently only 1 female associate. They don't think they have a problem, but they ponder out loud why we don't have more women in the leadership.
So when the power structure is comprised primarily of white men, it's easy to see how the gender bias pervades. Is it a coincidence that the female architects at my firm are always the default ones to work on bathrooms? To do the interior layouts? I don't think so. I notice that my male counterparts (with less experience) are openly given praise for their work. I consistently produce better drawings, 3d views, demonstrate advanced technical knowledge and my efforts are acknowledged maybe once for every 10 times my male counterparts are acknowledged.
Another subtle sexism I see is male project managers who want to "spare" the female employees from the wrath of our big boss and so they will speak for us in meetings rather than let us talk through our work. In consultant coordination meetings, my male counterparts are given the latitude to lead the discussion on their work but when I talk through my work I'm constantly interrupted by my project manager or the more senior male architect on the team.
Of course this is just my experience and I really need to find a better workplace, but I do think a lot of this happens to varying degrees at all sorts of firms. The trouble is that men still hold the majority of leadership positions at firms - we know that for a fact. If you are a man, you are likely blind to these subtle acts of sexism. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it isn't happening all around you. Of course, not all men. I like to think that my generation of architects (Millenials) and the younger ones are slowly working away from this paradigm.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but fuck it.
You should leave, your firm appears unlikely to change, and will probably tank anyway when the guy at the top exits
the business.
Dec 8, 20 3:51 pm ·
·
so it goes
No doubt. There is zero upward growth at my firm... too many middle tier folks who aren't going anywhere any time soon. Apparently there is a succession plan in place, but god knows what it is. I think the principals will splinter off and do their own thing after. What keeps me here besides pandemic uncertainty are the quality of projects and the comfort of not having to reestablish myself all over again at a new place.
@so it goes - can you expand on this? Not for the sake of reliving the nonsense you deal with, but so others can get a better picture of what you encounter? Your descriptions of the small, day-to-day actions may be revealing to some (including myself). We have just brought on our very first female partner, and our office is about 50/50 male/female. I wonder how much of what you're saying is based on gender, vs how much is based on the fragile egos of management, etc etc.
@bowling_ball - Are you insinuating that the fragile ego is a byproduct of being a person in management? I'm not sure one can separate the issue of gender from fragile egos when the vast majority of the management is comprised of one gender. They seem to go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.
I don't know why you would get flamed for relating your experience--it seems pervasive not just in architecture but in our entire culture. I don't like it and promote my women colleagues whenever possible.
The editor in me has to mention that "comprised of" is not proper english. You mean, "comprising" or "composed of." (One of many windmills I tilt at.)
Dec 9, 20 8:51 am ·
·
so it goes
@Wood Guy - You know, I think I said that because of the first reply to this thread. Sometimes I detect toxic energy in the Archinect forums and it's hard to tell when it's sarcasm/trolling/snark vs a person's real feelings.
I don't mind the editor criticism! My grammar and writing isn't my strong suit and I welcome any tips on how to sound like less of a dumdum.
@so it goes - I wasn't insinuating anything. I was asking a question which you immediately decided was bothersome, didn't address my question, and then came up with something else entirely. I asked my question re: management because for example, I have several technical staff who are absolutely incredible at the nuts and bolts of their jobs, but just suck horribly at dealing with clients. And sometimes I have to stop them when they get talking, because I have no idea what they're liable to say.
Dec 9, 20 1:58 pm ·
·
so it goes
Alright @bowling_ball, take two breaths and give me the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't trying to evade your question just because I answered it with a question. Jesus christ. Yes, I can 100% understand the need to jump in when you want to refocus the conversation with a client. My examples were both internal and consultant meetings. I am competent at my job and my oral skills so the frustration for me is that I'm not afforded the same latitude as my male colleagues of the same skill level. You asked about my personal experience. There it is.
Dec 9, 20 3:59 pm ·
·
bowling_ball
Thanks, that's all I was asking. This is an overdue and much needed discussion, which may be eye opening to many. On a professional AND personal level, I don't ever want to be accused of something that appears to sexist / racist / whatever, just because the other person has been affected in the past and may (deservedly) be sensitive. I may get flamed over this, so I just want to be clear that I'm coming from a place of genuine concern because I'm sensitive to this issue. I wasn't trying to hijack this discussion but rather tease out more info, that's all.
1. Life is too short to spend days around a negative environment. That shit will kill your creativity and overall professional energy.
2. If the firm doesn’t understand that it’s within its own best interest to maximize on the talent of its employees, rather than stifle it, then the firm is probably bad at all aspects of business (and design). Why would you want an employee that isn’t being allowed to grow and contribute their best?
I’d make those points to management in a diplomatic way, and see what they do about it. If no meaningful changes are made, then leave.
I won’t give advice on blatant and persistent harassment, because it will probably get you arrested...too hood for being diplomatic with bullies and creeps.
I've heard it's still out there, but not available to the masses.
Dec 10, 20 1:27 pm ·
·
so it goes
I got access to the original spreadsheet when it started in 2018 and still do, but the info is no longer there. There is a message that says a mirror copy has been made and stored elsewhere. Not sure what the status is now.
I also had early access but no longer. It became a private doc and then sorta disappeared. Making it public editable was a bad idea when too many started adding whatever to it.
Way to ruin the mystery Pete... I do remember making an edit to that list following the dumpster fire to clarify what had happened since many contributors were not aware of what balkinizing something was.
I'm male, 49, and also recently found out I'm Asperger syndrome autistic...which explains why I found my last firm to be so shitty to work for, pretty much what you describe happening to you, towards myself, regardless of being male.
Currently experiencing the joy of now being sidelined whenever someone doesn't agree with my views on technical matters I'm more than qualified to give an opinion about, by people who facilitate this happening but take no responsibility for the outcome, as if it really is nothing to do with them.
Nothing like discussions happening behind your back, people discussing 'what you really meant was', without anyone bothering to ask or check if that was the case, and when you challenge them on doing so, they just tell you everything has moved on, can kicked down the road, they won't discuss it any further.
"Fuck you I'll do what I want" would at least not be the passive aggressive shit I'm constantly faced with from my two-faced, backstabbing colleagues.
As an Aspie who's also the boss, I've experienced this from both sides. Until you have your name on the door, you're accountable to others. As hard as it is to bite your tongue when you "know better," others with a higher pay grade are ultimately the ones to make that call based on other factors you're likely not aware of.
Until you have your name on the door, you're accountable to others.
in other words, it's exploitation all the way down. an interesting idea might be making the boss accountable to the employees in some way? maybe, then folks like chuck would feel less alienated and excluded, which ultimately leads to burn out and apathy.
i wonder if architecture will ever, holistically, embrace the idea that giving it's workers an actually stake, aka interest, in the company will make for a stronger company via it's more motivated, integral staff?
square, the employer is absolutely responsible to the employees - by providing a safe and equitable place to work, in exchange for a paycheck and as much loyalty as one can reasonably have. At least that's part of it. If you don't want to be accountable to an employer, go open your own business. It's as simple as that (hint: it's NOT simple, and that's a huge reason why not everybody is cut out to be an
owner).
Dec 12, 20 4:56 pm ·
·
bowling_ball
Huh. Somebody gave my earlier comment a thumbs down, but then blocked me (?). This is an interesting discussion where none of us are all-knowing or perfect.
I didn't want to derail this important conversation but now that it's died down, I think we need a thread titled, "Shitty Architecture, Man" about bad design from the 70s.
Shitty Architecture Men
Here’s what I saw in the corporate world:
The men in leadership are much more interested in using their positions to score sex/ego gratification/power and otherwise feed their baser needs and instincts than to move the profession forward. It’s sad. The planet is burning and instead of working towards the greater good, they are working to get laid.
It’s not only tolerated, it’s institutionalized and entire firms are constructed around this dynamic and protecting the perpetrators.
Architecture culture = Lowest common denominator
yeah, no. A few bad recent examples does not make it a rule.
I am very sorry to hear that you have experienced this.
While things have gotten much better there is still a long way to go in terms of quashing sexual harassment and exploitation in our profession.
If I may ask which firms have you witnessed this in?
I saw some of this in big practices years ago. I eventually opted to going into my own small practice as I did not relate to corporate culture. I was young and naive at the time so do not know what was happening but now as a much older person would not be surprised. Back then I would imagine people would have been silent.
Not only is there sexism, but race discrimination as well. In my experience and that of other in my class we get different results on which name we use. For me if I use my white last name firms call expressing interest, using my latin last name no results. Using both last names the results will vary. I hace been told when applying that I do not fit the company culture, and I can tell that the moment they hear an accent they loose all interest. I've heard and seen office harassment towards both females and minorities. Basically anyone whose not a white man is not welcome. The treatment of women is disgusting and sickening, yet normalized. I left the field because of this.
Wasn't there a google doc floating around last year?
It's always great fun to anonymously call out people on an internet spreadsheet for serious violations/crimes...
There was (and probably still is). The list degenerated into a dumpster fire that even Australia would be impressed with.
In my limited experience it was the small firms that had the issues with racism and sexism. Keep in mind I've worked for only six firms in my career but the small ones where rampant with sexism, racism, and nepotism. This was due to the older partner (60 plus) that was running the firm.
It pains me to read this and I am so sorry that this has been your experience. Our firm is co-owned by myself (a man) and a woman. We have made it our top priority to ensure that not only is everyone treated equally, we quickly quash the stigma of men vs women with any client who directs all conversations towards myself while ignoring any women in the room.
While I do understand that this industry can be as you described, please know that there are good people out there that do not abide such actions, and hold women in the same regard as the men. No one should be looked down upon or made to feel uncomfortable based on their gender. If you've got the talent and the drive, it does not matter whether you are a man or a woman.
As a female architect, I've noticed a lot of subtle sexism in the industry more so than outright harassment... although I have personally experienced that as well. My current ~60 person firm has a big problem with this because it's a pyramid arrangement of power. The big boss at the top (starchitect, old white male) sets the tone and the power underneath him is comprised of men. We have 1 female principal in our office and currently only 1 female associate. They don't think they have a problem, but they ponder out loud why we don't have more women in the leadership.
So when the power structure is comprised primarily of white men, it's easy to see how the gender bias pervades. Is it a coincidence that the female architects at my firm are always the default ones to work on bathrooms? To do the interior layouts? I don't think so. I notice that my male counterparts (with less experience) are openly given praise for their work. I consistently produce better drawings, 3d views, demonstrate advanced technical knowledge and my efforts are acknowledged maybe once for every 10 times my male counterparts are acknowledged.
Another subtle sexism I see is male project managers who want to "spare" the female employees from the wrath of our big boss and so they will speak for us in meetings rather than let us talk through our work. In consultant coordination meetings, my male counterparts are given the latitude to lead the discussion on their work but when I talk through my work I'm constantly interrupted by my project manager or the more senior male architect on the team.
Of course this is just my experience and I really need to find a better workplace, but I do think a lot of this happens to varying degrees at all sorts of firms. The trouble is that men still hold the majority of leadership positions at firms - we know that for a fact. If you are a man, you are likely blind to these subtle acts of sexism. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it isn't happening all around you. Of course, not all men. I like to think that my generation of architects (Millenials) and the younger ones are slowly working away from this paradigm.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but fuck it.
I think I've worked in that office at least once.
Its good that you call it out- needs to be done
You should leave, your firm appears unlikely to change, and will probably tank anyway when the guy at the top exits the business.
No doubt. There is zero upward growth at my firm... too many middle tier folks who aren't going anywhere any time soon. Apparently there is a succession plan in place, but god knows what it is. I think the principals will splinter off and do their own thing after. What keeps me here besides pandemic uncertainty are the quality of projects and the comfort of not having to reestablish myself all over again at a new place.
@so it goes - can you expand on this? Not for the sake of reliving the nonsense you deal with, but so others can get a better picture of what you encounter? Your descriptions of the small, day-to-day actions may be revealing to some (including myself). We have just brought on our very first female partner, and our office is about 50/50 male/female. I wonder how much of what you're saying is based on gender, vs how much is based on the fragile egos of management, etc etc.
@bowling_ball - Are you insinuating that the fragile ego is a byproduct of being a person in management? I'm not sure one can separate the issue of gender from fragile egos when the vast majority of the management is comprised of one gender. They seem to go hand in hand as far as I'm concerned.
I don't know why you would get flamed for relating your experience--it seems pervasive not just in architecture but in our entire culture. I don't like it and promote my women colleagues whenever possible.
The editor in me has to mention that "comprised of" is not proper english. You mean, "comprising" or "composed of." (One of many windmills I tilt at.)
@Wood Guy - You know, I think I said that because of the first reply to this thread. Sometimes I detect toxic energy in the Archinect forums and it's hard to tell when it's sarcasm/trolling/snark vs a person's real feelings.
I don't mind the editor criticism! My grammar and writing isn't my strong suit and I welcome any tips on how to sound like less of a dumdum.
It is the internet, after all, so I understand starting off defensively.
@so it goes - I wasn't insinuating anything. I was asking a question which you immediately decided was bothersome, didn't address my question, and then came up with something else entirely. I asked my question re: management because for example, I have several technical staff who are absolutely incredible at the nuts and bolts of their jobs, but just suck horribly at dealing with clients. And sometimes I have to stop them when they get talking, because I have no idea what they're liable to say.
Alright @bowling_ball, take two breaths and give me the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't trying to evade your question just because I answered it with a question. Jesus christ. Yes, I can 100% understand the need to jump in when you want to refocus the conversation with a client. My examples were both internal and consultant meetings. I am competent at my job and my oral skills so the frustration for me is that I'm not afforded the same latitude as my male colleagues of the same skill level. You asked about my personal experience. There it is.
Thanks, that's all I was asking. This is an overdue and much needed discussion, which may be eye opening to many. On a professional AND personal level, I don't ever want to be accused of something that appears to sexist / racist / whatever, just because the other person has been affected in the past and may (deservedly) be sensitive. I may get flamed over this, so I just want to be clear that I'm coming from a place of genuine concern because I'm sensitive to this issue. I wasn't trying to hijack this discussion but rather tease out more info, that's all.
you guys need to move out of alabama
I'm in Boston, bitch
I genuinely thought I knew the firm. I did not.
I wonder if the initials are MDG.??
I'll never tell
your mom's in boston
Go work at the Big G place. There are full of women in upper management and leadership in their interior department.
And I lost my leg climbing up the topsails...
.
Big G is not uniformly wonderful. I have witnessed terrible sexism and ageism among the architects in certain Gensler offices.
You're also stuck working for the Big G.
General “shitty” firm advice...
1. Life is too short to spend days around a negative environment. That shit will kill your creativity and overall professional energy.
2. If the firm doesn’t understand that it’s within its own best interest to maximize on the talent of its employees, rather than stifle it, then the firm is probably bad at all aspects of business (and design). Why would you want an employee that isn’t being allowed to grow and contribute their best?
I’d make those points to management in a diplomatic way, and see what they do about it. If no meaningful changes are made, then leave.
I won’t give advice on blatant and persistent harassment, because it will probably get you arrested...too hood for being diplomatic with bullies and creeps.
Very solid advice and I completely agree. The diplomatic part has never been my strong suit either...
That's some good advice JLA. I'd add:
3. Firm management need to value work life balance.
btw what happened to the spreadsheet?
I've heard it's still out there, but not available to the masses.
I got access to the original spreadsheet when it started in 2018 and still do, but the info is no longer there. There is a message that says a mirror copy has been made and stored elsewhere. Not sure what the status is now.
hmmm. i have a copy of it but was wondering if it's still being updated
I also had early access but no longer. It became a private doc and then sorta disappeared. Making it public editable was a bad idea when too many started adding whatever to it.
it got balkinized at one point.
Way to ruin the mystery Pete... I do remember making an edit to that list following the dumpster fire to clarify what had happened since many contributors were not aware of what balkinizing something was.
My sincere sympathies with the OP.
I'm male, 49, and also recently found out I'm Asperger syndrome autistic...which explains why I found my last firm to be so shitty to work for, pretty much what you describe happening to you, towards myself, regardless of being male.
Currently experiencing the joy of now being sidelined whenever someone doesn't agree with my views on technical matters I'm more than qualified to give an opinion about, by people who facilitate this happening but take no responsibility for the outcome, as if it really is nothing to do with them.
Nothing like discussions happening behind your back, people discussing 'what you really meant was', without anyone bothering to ask or check if that was the case, and when you challenge them on doing so, they just tell you everything has moved on, can kicked down the road, they won't discuss it any further.
"Fuck you I'll do what I want" would at least not be the passive aggressive shit I'm constantly faced with from my two-faced, backstabbing colleagues.
As an Aspie who's also the boss, I've experienced this from both sides. Until you have your name on the door, you're accountable to others. As hard as it is to bite your tongue when you "know better," others with a higher pay grade are ultimately the ones to make that call based on other factors you're likely not aware of.
Until you have your name on the door, you're accountable to others.
in other words, it's exploitation all the way down. an interesting idea might be making the boss accountable to the employees in some way? maybe, then folks like chuck would feel less alienated and excluded, which ultimately leads to burn out and apathy.
i wonder if architecture will ever, holistically, embrace the idea that giving it's workers an actually stake, aka interest, in the company will make for a stronger company via it's more motivated, integral staff?
unlikely.
there are successful employee owned firms
exception, not the norm.
touché
square, the employer is absolutely responsible to the employees - by providing a safe and equitable place to work, in exchange for a paycheck and as much loyalty as one can reasonably have. At least that's part of it. If you don't want to be accountable to an employer, go open your own business. It's as simple as that (hint: it's NOT simple, and that's a huge reason why not everybody is cut out to be an
owner).
Huh. Somebody gave my earlier comment a thumbs down, but then blocked me (?). This is an interesting discussion where none of us are all-knowing or perfect.
I didn't want to derail this important conversation but now that it's died down, I think we need a thread titled, "Shitty Architecture, Man" about bad design from the 70s.
Shitty architecture Women?
I've not had a male boss.
Is that my fault? I work in communications but have never been helped to move up the ladder.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.