I just had something quite strange happen to me in my job search, and I’d like to get some outside perspectives on what possibly occurred.
It started by my answering an online job posting, received an email back to schedule a phone interview, so we started with the interview, and at the end the architect asked for my references. I hastily provided this, and he called them all within a couple hours of my sending it to him. He called the following day to chat, it lasted about 20 minutes, we discussed salary, and logistics of timeline and moving to the area, as I currently live out of state. He said, “I’d like to offer you a position at $X amount, how does that sound?” It was at the low end of what I want, but within range, so I accepted, and he invited me to visit the office, meet the coworkers, and check out the area. I did this, we had a great conversation, everything was very positive, one of the other architects took me to a job site white the firm owner had a meeting as we finished up this meet, and I was given the employee manual at the direction of the firm owner. We came back from the site visit, the owner stepped out from his meeting for a moment asking, “so that number we talked about, you’re still ok with that?” I said yes, shook his hand and left.
The meeting was on a Friday, at the end of the day following Monday I was told I was overqualified. And I am pretty clueless as to what exactly happened. I am pretty frustrated because I spent about $1000 on the trip, spent a weekend away from my wife and young son, invested time, energy, thoughts and hopes regarding moving to this area new to me. My current employer was incredulous, but happy to have me back. My family was the same. My friends can’t believe it.
I am tempted to email him requesting more clarity, but I know that really will do no good. Can someone provide some perspective here, about what they think may have happened? I am really at a loss, I’m hurt, confused, and a bit angry and definitely bitter.
That is indeed strange. Some of it makes some sense: ordinarily you're expected to negotiate, and I think they may have been confused that it sounds like you didn't try at all. They gave you at least two opportunities - one when he originally low-balled you (offering a number at the low end of your range was your cue to say "given my experience, I am aiming for something more in the range of $XXXXX), and then again when he asked you if you were still sure you were ok with the number that had been discussed. I suspect they may have had concerns there, both about your business sense, in not trying to negotiate at all, and about a likelihood that you'd become dissatisfied with a position that they knew would be paying less than you're worth and perhaps felt was a little below your abilities.
The very strange part though is that he didn't broach those subjects with your directly PRIOR to extending an offer, and instead decided to rescind the offer after the time you spent with them. The most likely explanation is that something just didn't gel over that visit - perhaps something(s) that you said made them realize you wouldn't fit into their firm's culture well, or maybe it was just a growing feeling on their part that you weren't the right fit. Another possibility is that when he said "I'd like to offer you a position at $XXXXX, he didn't intend that to be a definite job offer and was just confirming the salary range with you - and he thought the visit you made was still part of his interviewing process. That seems like the most likely explanation, though of course then he shouldn't have phrased it as "I'd like to offer you a position..."
Whatever it was, it would have been much better if they had set this whole thing up as a get-to-know-each-other trip AFTER which a decision would be made whether or not to offer you the job. Offering it to you and then changing their minds is really odd, and I understand your confusion and annoyance over that. I'd say look at the bright side: this probably isn't a firm you'd want to work for, as they probably handle other things badly! You could try to get them to reimburse your expenses for the trip - that seems pretty reasonable to ask, though they may or may not think so.
This is something I definitely had not thought about- the lack of negotiation connection to business sense. I find it really difficult to calculate my worth. I'm a mix of architect, builder, project manager, and carpenter, so my years of "relevant" experience is tough to pin down, so I don't feel like I have much leverage. I do need to be more assertive.
My guess is that they felt it wasn’t a good fit after all OR they found someone that took the job for less salary. This happened to me in my city (sorry to hear that you traveled for that) but the company requested 0-3 years of experience and I had about 3 years experience. They eventually told me that they wanted to hire me but needed to work out an offer and would send it to me, but then came back after the interviews and said that they couldn’t afford the salary I wanted (which was average my my experience level) so they went with someone with no experience because they could pay them 20k less. This was told to me off the record by the PA that was part of the team that made the hiring decisions. The only formal notice I got was that they decided to go with someone else. You don’t want to work for a company that works that way anyway. They don’t value people, they’re looking for the right numbers. This is what I think happened to you, regardless of experience level. Hope this helps?? Good luck!
It's hard to know but my guess is that one or more key people got the impression that you might be hard to manage--maybe you were too confident, or they are insecure, or you have a leadership personality and they know that it can be hard to manage a leader. It sucks that you spent time and money and were led to believe the job was yours, but try to learn from the experience and to not carry bitterness with you.
Who makes an offer after only doing phone interviews, and then seemingly continues to interview you? That’s the craziest part of all this for me. My guess is they were pretty desperate to fill the position, and then someone else came along after they offered you the job.
Sorry you spent the time and expense. I agree that this might be one of the times you could negotiate to get them to cover your travel expenses, or a portion of them, because the offer was made. Ask for it tactfully, not in a demanding way. If they don’t, I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape. Does the IRS allow you to deduct job search expenses, or is it only relocation/moving expenses after taking a new job?
FWIW, I ended up paying more in my federal taxes after the cuts due to the SALT limit. I wasn't expecting to, but buying a house, replacing the windows, buying a car, and higher sales tax resulted in quite a lot in local taxes. I maxed out the SALT deduction and would have taken more of a deduction otherwise.
Nov 26, 19 11:44 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
My taxes seemed about the same after the Trump changes. I am a firm owner, and I thought my taxes were supposed to become lower under the new law.
IIRC, my effective tax rate was a little lower after the tax cuts. I don't know if it was because I was able to take a larger deduction or if I simply was required to pay less overall. Could have been both. Overall though, my refund was lower and the SALT limit annoyed me ... so without digging into it, it felt like I payed more. Which fit most of the anecdotal narratives during tax season. People may have payed less, but it felt like they were paying more because they didn't see the impact in a substantial way (i.e. refunds were lower even though they probably had more in their paychecks).
Nov 27, 19 7:16 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
The media stories at the time seemed to suggest that owners of LLCs would have dramatically lower taxes. My taxes did not work out that way at all.
Most architects are shitty and clueless when it comes to HR. Sorry this happened to you. I would politely ask them for some money to offset your travel expenses. Provide them copies of receipts as backup and also so maybe they can expense the costs on their taxes.
Thank you all for your responses. I wasn't expecting so many thoughtful replies! I'm inclined to believe that he just found someone cheaper last minute. I don't believe this to be a character defining trait of his. I felt in his cadence over the phone that he had difficulty in expressing his decision. I think he felt bad, he mishandled it, and that's what it came down to. Shit happens, and I've learned to cover myself better going forward. It's just embarrassing telling friends and family that it's not happening now. I had people excited for me. Womp womp. Moving on..
I wouldn't feel embarrassed. Just chalk it up to one of those stupid things that happens sometimes. My wife once got a job offer, only to have the employer call to take it back a few hours later ... turns out the secretary mixed up the folders for the number 1 and number 2 candidates. My wife was number 2. She wasn't supposed to get the call unless number 1 declined. It sucked and she felt dejected, but got over it pretty quickly. A year later another position opened up, she applied again and got the job. Seeing how number 1 was unceremoniously forced to resign or face possible civil charges a year or two later for some inappropriate behavior, they probably should have just owned the original mistake and let my wife take the job a year earlier.
Nov 27, 19 12:00 am ·
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thisisnotmyname
Big daddy firm owner should still send you a check for your expenses. He needs to own that he wasted your time and make you whole.
Nov 27, 19 4:17 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
The firm should have a few extra dollars available since they apparently hired Mr./Ms. Less Expensive Candidate instead of you.
They found somebody cheaper, or possibly they were testing the market because they were thinking of replacing somebody already on the payroll. In any event, be damned glad it happened before you uprooted your life and moved there. I've heard of people walking in to the new job in a new city on the first day being told, "well, uhm, gee, we don't know quite how to tell you this, but there's been a change of plans, and, well, uhm, we're really sorry, and well, uhm,.............."
This is a low rent profession and I would never relocate for an architect job unless I wanted to move there anyway. You learned an important lesson.
Of course the cheap fucks found someone cheaper. You can never underestimate the parsimony of architects. If someone was willing to take even 3k less than you (which literally amounts to 1.5$ per hour less), they would still go with them. And there are many older people willing to work for very cheap these days.
Nov 27, 19 10:28 pm ·
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Hiring Practices
It started by my answering an online job posting, received an email back to schedule a phone interview, so we started with the interview, and at the end the architect asked for my references. I hastily provided this, and he called them all within a couple hours of my sending it to him. He called the following day to chat, it lasted about 20 minutes, we discussed salary, and logistics of timeline and moving to the area, as I currently live out of state. He said, “I’d like to offer you a position at $X amount, how does that sound?” It was at the low end of what I want, but within range, so I accepted, and he invited me to visit the office, meet the coworkers, and check out the area. I did this, we had a great conversation, everything was very positive, one of the other architects took me to a job site white the firm owner had a meeting as we finished up this meet, and I was given the employee manual at the direction of the firm owner. We came back from the site visit, the owner stepped out from his meeting for a moment asking, “so that number we talked about, you’re still ok with that?” I said yes, shook his hand and left.
The meeting was on a Friday, at the end of the day following Monday I was told I was overqualified. And I am pretty clueless as to what exactly happened. I am pretty frustrated because I spent about $1000 on the trip, spent a weekend away from my wife and young son, invested time, energy, thoughts and hopes regarding moving to this area new to me. My current employer was incredulous, but happy to have me back. My family was the same. My friends can’t believe it.
I am tempted to email him requesting more clarity, but I know that really will do no good. Can someone provide some perspective here, about what they think may have happened? I am really at a loss, I’m hurt, confused, and a bit angry and definitely bitter.
That is indeed strange. Some of it makes some sense: ordinarily you're expected to negotiate, and I think they may have been confused that it sounds like you didn't try at all. They gave you at least two opportunities - one when he originally low-balled you (offering a number at the low end of your range was your cue to say "given my experience, I am aiming for something more in the range of $XXXXX), and then again when he asked you if you were still sure you were ok with the number that had been discussed. I suspect they may have had concerns there, both about your business sense, in not trying to negotiate at all, and about a likelihood that you'd become dissatisfied with a position that they knew would be paying less than you're worth and perhaps felt was a little below your abilities.
The very strange part though is that he didn't broach those subjects with your directly PRIOR to extending an offer, and instead decided to rescind the offer after the time you spent with them. The most likely explanation is that something just didn't gel over that visit - perhaps something(s) that you said made them realize you wouldn't fit into their firm's culture well, or maybe it was just a growing feeling on their part that you weren't the right fit. Another possibility is that when he said "I'd like to offer you a position at $XXXXX, he didn't intend that to be a definite job offer and was just confirming the salary range with you - and he thought the visit you made was still part of his interviewing process. That seems like the most likely explanation, though of course then he shouldn't have phrased it as "I'd like to offer you a position..."
Whatever it was, it would have been much better if they had set this whole thing up as a get-to-know-each-other trip AFTER which a decision would be made whether or not to offer you the job. Offering it to you and then changing their minds is really odd, and I understand your confusion and annoyance over that. I'd say look at the bright side: this probably isn't a firm you'd want to work for, as they probably handle other things badly! You could try to get them to reimburse your expenses for the trip - that seems pretty reasonable to ask, though they may or may not think so.
This is something I definitely had not thought about- the lack of negotiation connection to business sense. I find it really difficult to calculate my worth. I'm a mix of architect, builder, project manager, and carpenter, so my years of "relevant" experience is tough to pin down, so I don't feel like I have much leverage. I do need to be more assertive.
It's hard to know but my guess is that one or more key people got the impression that you might be hard to manage--maybe you were too confident, or they are insecure, or you have a leadership personality and they know that it can be hard to manage a leader. It sucks that you spent time and money and were led to believe the job was yours, but try to learn from the experience and to not carry bitterness with you.
Who makes an offer after only doing phone interviews, and then seemingly continues to interview you? That’s the craziest part of all this for me. My guess is they were pretty desperate to fill the position, and then someone else came along after they offered you the job.
Sorry you spent the time and expense. I agree that this might be one of the times you could negotiate to get them to cover your travel expenses, or a portion of them, because the offer was made. Ask for it tactfully, not in a demanding way. If they don’t, I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape. Does the IRS allow you to deduct job search expenses, or is it only relocation/moving expenses after taking a new job?
Neither job search nor job-related moving costs are deductible anymore, under the Trump tax changes.
Thanks GOP!
FWIW, I ended up paying more in my federal taxes after the cuts due to the SALT limit. I wasn't expecting to, but buying a house, replacing the windows, buying a car, and higher sales tax resulted in quite a lot in local taxes. I maxed out the SALT deduction and would have taken more of a deduction otherwise.
My taxes seemed about the same after the Trump changes. I am a firm owner, and I thought my taxes were supposed to become lower under the new law.
IIRC, my effective tax rate was a little lower after the tax cuts. I don't know if it was because I was able to take a larger deduction or if I simply was required to pay less overall. Could have been both. Overall though, my refund was lower and the SALT limit annoyed me ... so without digging into it, it felt like I payed more. Which fit most of the anecdotal narratives during tax season. People may have payed less, but it felt like they were paying more because they didn't see the impact in a substantial way (i.e. refunds were lower even though they probably had more in their paychecks).
The media stories at the time seemed to suggest that owners of LLCs would have dramatically lower taxes. My taxes did not work out that way at all.
Most architects are shitty and clueless when it comes to HR. Sorry this happened to you. I would politely ask them for some money to offset your travel expenses. Provide them copies of receipts as backup and also so maybe they can expense the costs on their taxes.
Thank you all for your responses. I wasn't expecting so many thoughtful replies! I'm inclined to believe that he just found someone cheaper last minute. I don't believe this to be a character defining trait of his. I felt in his cadence over the phone that he had difficulty in expressing his decision. I think he felt bad, he mishandled it, and that's what it came down to. Shit happens, and I've learned to cover myself better going forward. It's just embarrassing telling friends and family that it's not happening now. I had people excited for me. Womp womp. Moving on..
I wouldn't feel embarrassed. Just chalk it up to one of those stupid things that happens sometimes. My wife once got a job offer, only to have the employer call to take it back a few hours later ... turns out the secretary mixed up the folders for the number 1 and number 2 candidates. My wife was number 2. She wasn't supposed to get the call unless number 1 declined. It sucked and she felt dejected, but got over it pretty quickly. A year later another position opened up, she applied again and got the job. Seeing how number 1 was unceremoniously forced to resign or face possible civil charges a year or two later for some inappropriate behavior, they probably should have just owned the original mistake and let my wife take the job a year earlier.
Big daddy firm owner should still send you a check for your expenses. He needs to own that he wasted your time and make you whole.
The firm should have a few extra dollars available since they apparently hired Mr./Ms. Less Expensive Candidate instead of you.
They found somebody cheaper, or possibly they were testing the market because they were thinking of replacing somebody already on the payroll. In any event, be damned glad it happened before you uprooted your life and moved there. I've heard of people walking in to the new job in a new city on the first day being told, "well, uhm, gee, we don't know quite how to tell you this, but there's been a change of plans, and, well, uhm, we're really sorry, and well, uhm,.............."
This is a low rent profession and I would never relocate for an architect job unless I wanted to move there anyway. You learned an important lesson.
Of course the cheap fucks found someone cheaper. You can never underestimate the parsimony of architects. If someone was willing to take even 3k less than you (which literally amounts to 1.5$ per hour less), they would still go with them. And there are many older people willing to work for very cheap these days.
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