I'll keep it a bit vague and short, but we just went through a VE process with a contractor and I had to share. A bit of info: addition and rehab to a 3-story Type IIB dormitory occupancy in the southeast. Now for the shockers:
Omit 10x40 balcony (composite deck with sandwiched roof membrane and topping slab as well as 42" brick on mtl stud parapet) and throw on a 5/12 architectural shingle hip-roof instead: $5,600 ADD... really guys, a hip roof is more expensive than a balcony system over occupied space? surprise number 1
Replace brick veneer with some sort of thin-set faux brick system (we left this one really open, asking the contractor to suggest something economical as long as it looked like brick): $100,000 ADD... ok, guess will keep the real brick then.
Change the roughly 100 windows from Anderson 400 series to 100 series, same size, still casement: $2,400 Deduct... so the price difference on a typical egress window is $24/window?... I see
Change from architectural shingles to 3-tab (hated including this one): $505 Deduct... Ok, don't tell the client, but I'll pony up the cash on that difference.
We reduced the amount of Gyp ceilings and threw ACT in a lot of rooms instead: $4,085 ADD... ok, so ACT is more expensive than gyp. Hard ceilings everywhere!
Perhaps some of you won't be as surprised as I was on the above. Most of the deducts were in line with what I expected, but I thought this would spark some interest.
I once deleted a 3-storey structural conc-block wall (2hr FRR) separating a parking level and tower exit stairs (formwork GC fucked-up). Discussing the deletion with the client and GC, we all agreed that the credit would +\- be a wash with whatever we were going to have to do to fix the situation.
My block credit came back at about $800 (those are canadian dollaroonies... so, $300USD?) Anyways, the total change was north of $30K. But that was a CCN, not VE.
Are you locked in to using this particular GC? If so, they really have no incentive to make meaningful price reductions. I've been in that situation a time or two.
With regards to some particular items, 1) I have seen GC's sometimes willing to do simple gyp ceilings for less than ACT, they can get gyp crews (who are on site anyway for the walls) cheaper than ACT workers. 2) Relatively few GC's are familiar with the many faux brick systems out there like Nichia and others, thus the GC will automatically want more money because it's an unknown thing to them. A skilled faux brick crew (if there is one in your town) is also probably more expensive than your cheapest local brick veneer person.
We aren't locked in to a GC, but the owner was leaning towards not wanting to bid it out, as they have history with the GC and the GC helped with pricing. My bet is we'll be bidding with 5 recommended GCs shortly, and that this GC's price will change accordingly at that time.
Non, I have GCs tell me things are going to be a wash all the time. I try to get them to promise as much in writing and include it as part of my ASKs. I don't always succeed, but my rule of thumb is that if you want me to draw a single line changing the contract documents, we need to agree on a price before hand. If at all possible, I have the subs drawing their recommendations and submit them as part of the ASK along with their price. If a GC handed me a change order for $30k that I thought we agreed was going to be a wash, that GC would be providing me break-down documentation for every nut and bolt for the rest of the job.
May 8, 19 1:03 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Joe, I agree and have done that before. Regarding my particular example tho... yes, a wash was discussed among most parties but when it came time to review quotes, the project manager presented a pre-existing contract they had with the mason which stipulated an agreed price per block for substitutions. I made my case and argued that price per unit was not applicable given that this wall was rather substantial (filled cores, scaffolding, re-bar, seismic magical stuff, etc...), but that went nowhere. The owner is a known hard ass so he might have done something about it outside of the meeting. eugh. I should dig out more examples.
May 8, 19 3:47 pm ·
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Time for Value Engineering
I'll keep it a bit vague and short, but we just went through a VE process with a contractor and I had to share. A bit of info: addition and rehab to a 3-story Type IIB dormitory occupancy in the southeast. Now for the shockers:
Omit 10x40 balcony (composite deck with sandwiched roof membrane and topping slab as well as 42" brick on mtl stud parapet) and throw on a 5/12 architectural shingle hip-roof instead: $5,600 ADD... really guys, a hip roof is more expensive than a balcony system over occupied space? surprise number 1
Replace brick veneer with some sort of thin-set faux brick system (we left this one really open, asking the contractor to suggest something economical as long as it looked like brick): $100,000 ADD... ok, guess will keep the real brick then.
Change the roughly 100 windows from Anderson 400 series to 100 series, same size, still casement: $2,400 Deduct... so the price difference on a typical egress window is $24/window?... I see
Change from architectural shingles to 3-tab (hated including this one): $505 Deduct... Ok, don't tell the client, but I'll pony up the cash on that difference.
We reduced the amount of Gyp ceilings and threw ACT in a lot of rooms instead: $4,085 ADD... ok, so ACT is more expensive than gyp. Hard ceilings everywhere!
Perhaps some of you won't be as surprised as I was on the above. Most of the deducts were in line with what I expected, but I thought this would spark some interest.
I once deleted a 3-storey structural conc-block wall (2hr FRR) separating a parking level and tower exit stairs (formwork GC fucked-up). Discussing the deletion with the client and GC, we all agreed that the credit would +\- be a wash with whatever we were going to have to do to fix the situation.
My block credit came back at about $800 (those are canadian dollaroonies... so, $300USD?) Anyways, the total change was north of $30K. But that was a CCN, not VE.
Are you locked in to using this particular GC? If so, they really have no incentive to make meaningful price reductions. I've been in that situation a time or two.
With regards to some particular items, 1) I have seen GC's sometimes willing to do simple gyp ceilings for less than ACT, they can get gyp crews (who are on site anyway for the walls) cheaper than ACT workers. 2) Relatively few GC's are familiar with the many faux brick systems out there like Nichia and others, thus the GC will automatically want more money because it's an unknown thing to them. A skilled faux brick crew (if there is one in your town) is also probably more expensive than your cheapest local brick veneer person.
Similar to thisisnotmyname, it sounds like it's a labor and expertise issue to me.
We aren't locked in to a GC, but the owner was leaning towards not wanting to bid it out, as they have history with the GC and the GC helped with pricing. My bet is we'll be bidding with 5 recommended GCs shortly, and that this GC's price will change accordingly at that time.
Non, I have GCs tell me things are going to be a wash all the time. I try to get them to promise as much in writing and include it as part of my ASKs. I don't always succeed, but my rule of thumb is that if you want me to draw a single line changing the contract documents, we need to agree on a price before hand. If at all possible, I have the subs drawing their recommendations and submit them as part of the ASK along with their price. If a GC handed me a change order for $30k that I thought we agreed was going to be a wash, that GC would be providing me break-down documentation for every nut and bolt for the rest of the job.
Joe, I agree and have done that before. Regarding my particular example tho... yes, a wash was discussed among most parties but when it came time to review quotes, the project manager presented a pre-existing contract they had with the mason which stipulated an agreed price per block for substitutions. I made my case and argued that price per unit was not applicable given that this wall was rather substantial (filled cores, scaffolding, re-bar, seismic magical stuff, etc...), but that went nowhere. The owner is a known hard ass so he might have done something about it outside of the meeting. eugh. I should dig out more examples.
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