Archinect
anchor

This field is filled with absolute idiots and it is destroying the profession

Gaidamack

Idiots as in people who are OK with working 18hr a day, 6-7 days a week. 

I mean, what is wrong with you? I've seen a lot of people like you, I've started seeing you in school where you would stay up all night because "that's how we do it the studio haha staying up all night #studiolife" hahahaha you're an utter imbecile! staying up all night just to draw a mediocre one section or whatever. People actually think it is "cool" to stay late working on fucking architecture!  You're not an engineer at NASA, you're now curing cancer, you're a fucking architect! you are drawing floor plans! you are not even an architect! you are CAD monkey and bad one at that. zero efficiency, zero time management. zero skill.

It's a tedious profession, you need redraw, edit and change your design constantly, what makes it very time consuming. I get that it's slow, and it takes a lot of time to come together. But how is it physically possible to be a productive person if you work 24/7? No way an employee who comes at 9 am, goes home at 11 pm (and that's one of the "reasonable" days from what I gather. Disgusting!) is more productive that one who works 40-45 hours a week, sleeps well, fucks his/her bf/gf from time to time, eats well, go outside. Jesus. I seriously would get the sacrifice if it was for the greater good or if you actually made money, but no, we are architects. the lowest of the low. We are worst than lawyers. AND WE ARE WORST THAN LAYWERS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE OKAY BEING SLAVES!

it seems like nobody has self respect. Everyone is okay being a slave, because if we've been taught that in school. Teachers would actually tell me not to sleep in order to finish their shitty, good for nothing assignment. I swear to god it should be equivalent to sexual harassment when you teacher tells you to NOT SLEEP. How the fuck is this normal is beyond me. I'm 27 y/o, I've been working for almost 3 years, never in my life have I stayed all night to finish something. I would rather stop at some point and continue when I'm fresh the next day, and it always worked because I mange my time correctly and efficiently. You are more capable of producing stuff if you are well rested, than if you are entering your 15th hour of work. I work at at chill small office, very reasonable hours and a relatively good pay. and everyone just feels ashamed to go home, even thought they is no deadline or anything. Those idots wait for the first one to go home so they can feel fine with. This profession shames people for going home! IT IS INSANE! I mean, how is this legal?

 
Mar 20, 19 7:49 am
Non Sequitur

I'm not going to read this angst-filled teenage rant. What's your point?

I work 40 to 42hr weeks and bend my schedule around my family commitments. Plenty of folks do this and only very few are dumb enough to accept terrible gigs as you describe.


Mar 20, 19 8:10 am
Gaidamack

You just did, and my point it pretty clear. People have no respect for themselves and ruin the profession. You are not doing that, so thank you.

poop876

Same here! As an office, we maybe pull 1-2 all-nighters once a year. Other than that my entire staff is working 40 hours, unless they want to work more!

joseffischer

hah, poop... I only demand my employees work 24 hours straight once or twice a year... otherwise I let them work as much as they feel like they need to in order to keep their jobs.

5839

How do you know that everyone is sitting around feeling ashamed to go home from the firm, if you yourself aren't one of those idiots?  If you're the enlightened one who leaves on time then A) you're solving the problem for everyone who doesn't want to be the first to go, and B) you aren't there to see what the others do, whether they're ashamed, or how late they stay.

Mar 20, 19 9:41 am
Gaidamack

I go home first. then they follow. We talked about it, they confirmed it is the case.

5839

Great - problem solved. Keep doing that. Stop worrying about what your coworkers are doing. 

Or consider a different firm, if that culture is getting to you.  We don't all keep those hours, regardless of what your profs told you.

randomised

Just do what you do, the way you do it best. If you're most productive 09:00-17:00, good for you. I'm most productive between 13:30-18:30 and from 20:00-22:00/23:00, but I often have to work 09:30-18:00, because I work with people and have a family actually. So yeah, there's that. 

Mar 20, 19 10:08 am
Witty Banter

There are plenty of firms that don't operate that way.  I would suggest finding one.

Mar 20, 19 10:09 am
Rusty!

World is filled with functional yet completely mediocre architecture that meets all bare minimums of competency. And meeting this minimum is no small task! It requires professional mastery to put together the most drab strip mall that looks exactly like million other places in every city. 

If you have ever worked on a really generically awful project and then worked on a really great project that stands out in its effort, all of this would be very clear to you. Sadly, you do not receive a higher design fee for being really good at all the intangibles in the profession. Crap project will receive similar staffing as a really ambitious one. 

Design is an integrally inefficient process. Pass a ladder to an architect stuck in a hole in the ground, and they will turn it into a shovel. What drives people to such madness? Probably that history is filled with truly exceptional architecture that is civilization defining. Some people like to believe that they are indeed part of something important. 

You want a 9-5 job in Architecture? There is lots of that out there, guaranteed. Trick is to start building a portfolio of built crap really early on, and keep at it. Once you have spent a few years working on completely forgettable shit, expectations will be realistic from everyone going forward. 

It sounds like you are on a good path. 

Mar 20, 19 10:19 am
chigurh

first couple of statements are spot on...

meiii

Lmaooo, could not agree more, thank you.

OneLostArchitect

100% Rusty. Everyone should listen to Renzo Piano interview with Charlie Rose on the Whitney in NY.

MDWed

Amen, Rusty!

MDWed

GridBubbles

Well said Rusty! This is absolutely spot on and a very clear and concise summary of the profession of architecture.

Have any of you read this article?

http://www.harvarddesignmagazi...

Mar 20, 19 12:58 pm
randomised

Thanks for that, great read. A bit dense but very recognizable, made it till paragraph 21 on my train ride, will finish later. Cheers David!

SneakyPete

I just did. Thank you for the suggestion.

Gaidamack

That's a great essay. Thanks.

archanonymous

Great read.

Quentin

I never pulled an all nighter in undergrad nor grad. I've stayed at work past 9pm I think 4 times working in the profession for 6 years. Most people I know in the profession aren't working past 45hr/week. I think only select firms operate the way you speak of. And I agree they're lame for taking those conditions.

Mar 20, 19 2:01 pm
Archinect
tintt

If you plan your work you can cut the hours. 

Mar 20, 19 7:20 pm
RickB-Astoria

Gaidamack,

There are people who works intermittently across the day. Maybe they are actually working 8 to 12 hours a day but that is actually spread across from say, 8 am to about 2 am. That means they are probably working 2-3 hours and resting for 2-3 hours and going back to work and so forth. During those "resting" periods, they are thinking about the design. For those who LIVE architecture as a way of life (not as a job), they are basically thinking architecture 24/7.... EVEN during sleep. They go to the "drafting table" (or computer workstation) when they want to transfer the design in their head on to paper (or into the CAD/BIM file). Due to such iterative process, it isn't something that happens solely between an 8 hour window. Some people, they have to put to paper the ideas (so to speak) when they have that idea that they can't simply wait until the next work day to put down so they have to do it while it is fresh in their mind before they lose it. 

It's like clocking in and out throughout the day and night. They aren't putting their time resting while mulling over design decisions on their employer's dime so to speak. As they are often salary workers, they are paid the same but their job is about meeting expectations and deadlines. 

Even the craftspeople don't work conventional office hours. In fact, the 8 hours a day work day is a modern convention as a response to industrial age factory worker safety and welfare. Imagine working in a steel factory for 16 to 20+ hours a day, 7 days a week. In fact, it would in fact be quite deadly. You'd die of heat exhaustion, heat stroke, and basically dying under those extreme conditions of such work environment. This somehow spread across to all occupations as a typical work shift. Office professions like ours with our air conditioned work space and cushiony chairs is a very different environment. We became candy-asses thinking that working more than 8 hours a day is SOOOOO hard. You have no f-ing clue what working hard is.

Mar 20, 19 9:36 pm
tduds

Have you ever worked in an architecture office?

poop876

Yeah Balkins, what do you know about office setting?

RickB-Astoria

An office is a space with one or more rooms with at least a desk, chair, computer and printer (including large format computer). Larger offices may have more than one desk, computer, chair, and printer. Fundamentally, no different than any other office. You seen one, you seen them all basically. Architecturally speaking, the office space requirements are no different for me than it is for you Tim Dudley. An office an be any any scale from a one room office to a larger office space where you may have multiple employees. I have my own office space. If I hired employees and all and need a conference room and all that other additional stuff, it isn't rocket science. A home office, for example, is an office as well but simply located at a residence. Sure, there can be building code related matters but it doesn't always have to be.

RickB-Astoria

What do I know about office setting? Oh lets see, over a decade of running my own office and worked in another office. Besides talking or discussion about the project with your work colleagues, you are sitting on a chair in front of a computer, or on the phone with the client, and occassionally doing work outside the office like site visits, meeting with clients, dropping off plans at the city hall or county hall, or any number of tasks. ALL of which you are in your average room temperature 65-75 degree office environment. Typically 68-70.

tduds

So, no. OK.

RickB-Astoria
RickB-Astoria
RickB-Astoria

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/home-office

3. a work or office space set up in a person's home and used exclusively for business on a regular basis.


RickB-Astoria

If you are trying to make a point about people and social culture then that's just socializing with co-workers. So what. However, how is sitting in front of a computer for 10-16 hours a day remotely physical and dangerous to the same extent as working that many hours in a steel factory and other similarly dangerous industrial jobs.

RickB-Astoria

Here's a little history and it had NOTHING to do with cushiony "office work environments": https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/03/how-the-8-hour-workday-changed-how-americans-work.html

RickB-Astoria

You know.... the 8 hour work day history pertains to the danger of work fatigue from MANUAL labor for such duration as 16 hour work days. The reason it is kind of falling apart today is that the reasons that brought about the 8 hour work day is applicable to manual labor jobs but doesn't hold the same applicability in an office job. An honest days work is a the amount of hours you have to work until you are physically fatigued to the point where you need to stop work OR you will soon become a danger to yourself and others. That was the traditional work schedule. Office work doesn't require the physical exertion that those manual labor jobs would. Generally, you can work in an office environment for nearly twice as long each day than you can in those manual labor jobs like working in blacksmith-ing workshops, or in a steel factory, or other jobs involving moving heavy objects and a lot of physically exhausting manual labor. This is why it is becoming norm to see office workers working 60-80 hours. My point is, you have no clue to what really working your ass off because you haven't experienced the working conditions of working 100 hour work week in places like a steel mill or blacksmith-ing or any highly physical oriented working environment like those back in the industrial age. Those work conditions are practically outlawed in the U.S. People worked there ass off and it wasn't pushing sheets of paper around. My criticism of the OP is whining about working more than 8 hours a day. Sorry, when you join a profession, you are marrying a way of life. You work 100 hours a week if you must. It is still nothing like working 100 hours a week in a job where moving stuff 100 pounds or more all day long.

RickB-Astoria

Under no point am I saying you are not a good worker in the context of the field. This isn't a profession where if you work more than 8 hours in a day, that you would be endangering yourself and others with literal risk to life regarding the physical exertion as you aren't really physically exerting much. You don't have to built like an athlete to work in this profession 16 hour work days. You just have to have your intermittent breaks fro rest and meals.

Witty Banter

Don't ever change Rick.

RickB-Astoria

I'm not suggesting workers in architectural design HAS to work such long shifts. However, they shouldn't assume as an office worker (which in a way, you are one) that you work only 40 hour a week work week... 8 hours a day work day. You are kind of expected to work as many hours as needed to be productive, keep with project schedules, and basically work comes before family. That's the private sector for you as your life depends on the job and keeping it and being productive. The two people that gets laid off quickly are the A) those that milk hours and does little and B) those who does the minimum hours of work. Office based professionals are expected to work 50-60 hours a week being normal. That's basically 10 hours a day.... 5 to 6 days a week. Historically, you would have only one day off.... that was commonly Sunday... in the U.S.

tduds

I love/hate your ability to endlessly harp on every thing besides the point.

tduds

In a thread about toxic workaholic culture in Architecture firms you pop in with some philosophical / historical musings on the nature of work and then go on to define "an office" It's like performance art.

Non Sequitur

I had an open bar conference today. It was a glorious 5 hrs of continuing education.

( o Y o )

Design is an integrally inefficient process.

Architecture is an integrally inefficient process.

There, fixed it for you.

Mar 21, 19 12:38 pm
tduds

One thing I think isn't mentioned enough is the toxic work culture of certain cities / regions that permeates the architectural communities of that city.

When I lived in DC I was worked to death, but so were the consultants and the hill interns. I have colleagues in Manhattan who sleep at their desks for less money than I make in a much more affordable market. In Portland, I've yet to work more than 60 hours in a week. I rarely come in on weekends or stay past 7pm. And when I take vacations my principals excitedly ask for pictures of the trip. They value balance here.

Outside of a few starchitect firms, workaholic culture - I'd argue - is more closely correlated with location than industry.

Mar 21, 19 5:39 pm
archi_dude

This is something you’ll find in any industry and unfortunately if you are really working on ground breaking work in whatever field people will be pushing it. What’s a bummer with architecture is I found that pay was actually lower in the firms actually doing interesting work so it’s a double lose if you have a life. Also unfortunate, is it is definitely a fact that you need to look like you are putting in extra effort just to remain employable and this is most easily measured in hours not output with disconnected bosses. My first job demonstrated this perfectly with their flexible hour schedule where you could arrive anytime between 7-9am and leave 8 hours after. What I found was that when I opted for the 7am to 4pm schedule managers were raising their eyebrows if I left technically late at 430 but when I switched to 9-6 around 530 managers would pass by and be like “still here!? Go home!” And I would leave under 8 hours. Just another example of a potentially awesome policy ruined by the American workaholic lifestyle.

Mar 21, 19 9:32 pm
RickB-Astoria

In America, the idea is why put off to tomorrow what you can do today. There are certain points in any project where it is a good time to stop and take a break at. There are spots where you either stop at the previous good point to take a break at or continue on til the next spot. You all know what I am talking about. The point is take one of those moments before you get too exhaustive and make dumbass mistakes which you would know better. A full-time salaried office-based professional works between 1.25x to 1.5x normal full-time (40 hour) work week as a normal week. Sometimes a little more than other and sometimes a little less than those figures. 50-60 hours a week give or take roughly 5 hours or so being the typical average. If you have a lot of meetings you have to attend in connection with a project, you might have to put in a little more. Sometimes, you can have some slow weeks that are 40 hours work weeks. I don't recommend constantly working every week at 80-100+ hours each week. However, don't be a minimalist working only the minimum work hours where they leave exactly at the 8-hr mark. The receptionist might leave but you don't leave at that moment, necessarily.

Business owners / principals that are actively part of the business day to day activities and not just there for the business meetings.... they work regularly in excess of 40 hours a week because they basically have two jobs. 1) doing the day to day work of the business, and 2) running the business affairs.

archi_dude

Rick have you ever actually worked in an office?

RickB-Astoria

Yes. As far as working for at an architectural firm is another thing but I have been at an architectural firm's office before. When you deduce the cosmetic differences of one office to the next and factor the types of configuration and size of the office. An architect's office for a sole-proprietor is basically a small office or home office and would not typically have a conference room and other amenities. At the minimal, it's a room with a table and computer. You may have a phone but you may use your cell phone instead of a landline. With the computer, you may have a printer or plotter or both or one of those plotters that also functions as a printer and support small 8.5 x 11 paper as well as the large format. In an architectural or engineering office, there maybe a drafting table. Basically, I have those things right here.

RickB-Astoria

In short, yes. I also visited offices of architectural firms. It isn't all that different than any office space. It's not really that different than a social services office, as well. Many years ago while I was getting my first associates degree, in microcomputer programming & networking, I had a financial aid work study job at one of our local non-profit agencies. At their location at the time, their office had the main lobby area and "cubicle" (ok, not really a cubicle but can't think of the correct word at the moment), there was a conference room, and there was individual "offices" for program directors for the various programs. Visit an architect office later and it wasn't all that different even for a moderate size firm. There are a variety of ways an office is physically set up. While a non-profit agency has different work to do than architects, it isn't all that different.

tduds

Swing and a miss.

Non Sequitur

"swing and a miss" You're assuming Ricky B was even dressed and standing in the correct field. Looks more like he showed up at a bowling alley 3 towns over.

Steeplechase

I’ve been in an operating room before. I have a table and a X-
acto knife, so I’m pretty much a surgeon.

RickB-Astoria

That's a fucked up logic and not what I have said or implied even in parallel. Steeplechase, you allude to a point where seeing an operating room makes you a surgeon. First, a surgeon is an occupation and noun of a person who practices surgery. Nothing in what I said about seeing an office is saying I am an architect. Building design is just a synonym for architectural design in some countries. Some of which do not require an occupational license. Building design in U.S. is really just practicing architecture in connection with projects exempt from requiring an Architect license to design. Now, we have the dictionary definition of architecture and we have each local state, province, territory or nation's statutory definition for purposes of whether a license is required or not. Some places, really don't license the profession and it's merely a dictionary definition of the profession as it were for the last.... 10,000 years or at least as it was in the days of Vitruvius and before occupational licensing came into existence in only the last ~125 years.

tduds

This is all so hilariously irrelevant. Keep going.

RickB-Astoria

Sure... since it was you and poop that wanted to focus on asking about experience in an architect office. You know my main point in the first place was about the OP whining about working more than 8 hour a day work day and more than 40 hour work week. The point is you have project deadlines that you enter into contractual agreement by verbal or written communications telling a client that you'll be done with _______ by ________. You fill in the blank but you get the point. So lets say you are suppose to produce some deliverable at a certain stage of the project by the end of the month. You put whatever time is required to meet deadline. That's to be expected in this profession and clients will NOT accept excuses for failure. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION. In short, we have to meet the schedule, hell or high water. NO EXCEPTION. That or we don't get paid. Okay, some clients are more reasonable than others but I deal with some of the most unreasonable clients known to mankind in the residential / home building design sector. However, the expected work ethics point still applies that you don't promise something and then don't follow through on it. As an employee, the promises are often made by those higher up on the organization.... the big wigs....that makes the contractual agreement. The boss sets the timeline, and you have to fulfill the boss's promises to the client. Your employment depends on it. Failing to do generally results in getting canned. So, yes, you may have to work more hours than you may want to but you get 'er done. Like any calling, what are you willing to sacrifice? This profession is a profession of a calling and all calling requires a sacrifice. I don't mean animal sacrifice.

RickB-Astoria

One of the sacrifices of professional fields is you may have to work more than an 8 hour work shift and you may have to work more than 40 hours a week. Sure, it isn't usual to be working 100 hours a week in this profession but it isn't something that doesn't happen once in a while. Even attorneys may have to burn the midnight oil. It is the way it is. Yes, I agree that we shouldn't strive to constantly work at this extreme levels of hours. However, working 40-60 hours a week isn't unusual and fairly normal. My reference to history was that the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week was something of a modern fabrication and partly to do with making working conditions reasonable for those hard and tough manual labor industrial jobs. The reasons that originally lead the establishment of 8 hour work days and 40 hour work week do not apply to office work because the physical condition and physical fatigue doesn't apply to us unless we are already dangerously out of shape bordering on physical disability in the first place. Hell man, construction contractors will often work well over 40 hours. GCs may work 40 hours on the job site each week and after a full day's work on the job site, they have to then take care of the book keeping and administrative matters. So, 60 hours a week is not uncommon. Sometimes they may have to put in weekend time as well. If we are going to be respected by our colleagues in the AEC field, we need to work honest day's work. An honest day's work is not 8 hours but the average 12 HOURS... relating to the average daytime and night-time hours at the equator. Historically, it was related to the time of sunrise to sunset and then it was uniformed somewhat to 12 hours. The honest work week was 6 DAYS with Sunday off to go to church (or whatever your worship time but in the U.S., we have a Christian dominant cultural history). Monday through Saturday, 12 hours a day. That's 72 hours. It was later when we adopted the 8 hour work day and adopting the Robert Owen's "Eight hours labor, eight hours recreation, eight hours rest" formula, loosely. Truth is, the rest was more likely to be 9-10 hours. Some of us are trying to push for less work. The point of the history lesson is that the 8-hour a day, 40 hour work week... was a modern fabrication and it was intended for those manual labor jobs like the mines, factories, etc. The reason and justification applies to those fields but that justification is for those occupations that are office oriented. We don't really have physical labor involved in our profession.

tduds

"So lets say you are suppose to produce some deliverable at a certain stage of the project by the end of the month. You put whatever time is required to meet deadline."

 If you're regularly pulling long nights + weekends to meet deadlines either you / your boss has unrealistic expectations (in which case the culture needs changing) or you are bad at time management (in which case get your shit together). Everything else you've written is superfluous.

RickB-Astoria

That maybe and there is no disagreement that good leadership should include reasonable human resource but even the process of acquiring the additional human resources with the knowledge and skill set that is required to be effective. Just adding freshly graduated idiots don't help projects. Expectations is we meet deadlines that have been established. 

Remember, the CLIENT determines the deadlines because they control the dispersion of the money. You might say the contract does. Contract is nothing but paper with words on it. Inanimate. Right now on this little planet called Earth, it takes human beings to either operate according to the contract terms or not. It's a human action to enact human action. We may say the contract control. No, the people control. The contract stipulates terms of agreement and so forth. You don't meet the deadline to deliver, you can end up not getting paid. In other words, in some effect you may be forfeiting that money. Kind of like the old Dominoes pizza commercials that their deliver pizza within 30 minutes from the time the order is placed (or leaves the oven and notification is made) or the pizza is free. Failure to deliver by the deadlines established is a forfeiture of your fees. It can be treated that way and in cases, they are. There are clients that are assholes like that. There are various other more subtle contractual penalties for being late not only on the client side regarding payments but also on the professional's own failure to meet the expectations. 

You can't just go hire a bunch of architecture school grads looking for a job. Sometimes you can... a lot of times, you can't just do that and expect the problem solved. I expect office based professionals to regularly work between 40 to 60 hours a weeks but there are times where long hours are done. In the software/video game development world, we call it "crunch time". There are similar parallels in architecture. There are "crunch time" events in architectural projects of any scale which may require additional hours to get things done. 

Most project deadlines are rarely ever ideal. This is because you have to satisfy the client and they might not accept your ideal schedule but they have the leverage because they can always find someone else but if you have employees, you can't afford to be too nitpicky. You need the project because if you have employees, you have to pay whether or not they are actually doing anything productive or not. You know what I am saying is true because this forum is a litany of those truths and there is certainly profound facts. I am happy that you are working for a firm that has managed or is lucky enough to not have to make their employees work regularly 80+ hours a week.

Steeplechase

Funny, just last week I told a client we would not meet their deadline. I clearly justified our decision and they accepted. Had a conversation today about how to handle another client and the likely scenario of rejecting their deadlines.

RickB-Astoria

Sometimes, you have a reasonable client and sometimes you have an asshole client. Usually it is the asshole clients that causes all kinds of problems and in turn they are the ones you prepare for like prepare for the worst and hope for the best and be satisfied with whatever in between.

Be prepared for the Donald Trumps type of clients and cover your ass. Then hope your client is someone better not equal or worse than Trump.

tduds

How many clients have you had?

eeayeeayo

Before the hemming and hawing begins, Rick: how many clients have you had who were NOT one or more of the following:

1. related to you;

2. assigned to you in connection with academic requirements;

3. contracting you for one-time tasks very peripherally related to building design, such as but not limited to: serving as a document courier, un-sticking a nail from a stuck window, or locating old plans in an institution's files?

4. associated with tasks entirely unrelated to building design, such as but not limited to: movie theater maintenance; electronics repair; or shifts on the back of a garbage truck?

tduds

"The average client is about 5'-9" tall and caucasian..." etc.

Witty Banter

Not surprising he's once again chosen to ignore this question.

meiii

The lowest of the low ? Lmao, I doubt so. I get your point even though I don't get why it makes you so upset... just... do you ? 

Your statement is definetely not applicable to the majority of architects in this world, but portrays a reality your young-self is currently exposed to. Just keep preaching the good word (with a chiller vibe lol), and maybe people will actually follow your advice. (if they feel like it)

But anyway, any individual in any given profession is entitled to live and work the way it suits himself/herself, some people actually enjoy these crazy schedules, they live for it like you said. As long as they are happy with their lives well.. it's their business not ours.

(Important to note that 9-5 pm jobs are often not realistic when you own your business.. not everybody is an employee...)

Mar 22, 19 5:43 am
RickB-Astoria

Exactly. For a business owner, you do your 9-5 and then you do your additional business administration stuff like book keeping. Okay, it may sometimes be the other way around but you basically running two jobs. The job of designing (especially when you are a sole-practitioner or small firm with maybe 1-2 employees but still a sole-proprietorship). You are responsible for the work so you have to review the work and you have to talk to the client. The client contract is with you not your hired minions. You have to go to meetings representing the business and even sign papers not your underling. So, it is easy to still have to work past 5pm. Sometimes, you have to go to the city council or planning commission meeting that are often after 5pm. So you have that. Long days is to be expected and is to be performed.

randomised

Pfft, designing is easy. I do most of the designing in the back of my head while doing other things. I just designed a diagram while typing this

RickB-Astoria

Some of the steps in designing in easy but some of it is not so easy. Some of it takes time and some people operate on a Flex schedule, anyway. You have to make sure all the pieces of the design works together as a whole. That can be easy to being a total pain in the ass.

randomised

Comes natural to me, do it I.

randomised

in my sleep. Very efficient. Only problem it's not always billable ;)

RickB-Astoria

True. It does for some and not always the case with others. I get you. I'm speaking broadly on the dynamics of the myriad of persons. When I am talking about designing, that includes the scientific/engineering side as well as the spatial, form and aesthetic side of designing. There is the whole synthesis of all pieces of the design. It can be challenging for some people in this field.

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