Idiots as in people who are OK with working 18hr a day, 6-7 days a week.
I mean, what is wrong with you? I've seen a lot of people like you, I've started seeing you in school where you would stay up all night because "that's how we do it the studio haha staying up all night #studiolife" hahahaha you're an utter imbecile! staying up all night just to draw a mediocre one section or whatever. People actually think it is "cool" to stay late working on fucking architecture! You're not an engineer at NASA, you're now curing cancer, you're a fucking architect! you are drawing floor plans! you are not even an architect! you are CAD monkey and bad one at that. zero efficiency, zero time management. zero skill.
It's a tedious profession, you need redraw, edit and change your design constantly, what makes it very time consuming. I get that it's slow, and it takes a lot of time to come together. But how is it physically possible to be a productive person if you work 24/7? No way an employee who comes at 9 am, goes home at 11 pm (and that's one of the "reasonable" days from what I gather. Disgusting!) is more productive that one who works 40-45 hours a week, sleeps well, fucks his/her bf/gf from time to time, eats well, go outside. Jesus. I seriously would get the sacrifice if it was for the greater good or if you actually made money, but no, we are architects. the lowest of the low. We are worst than lawyers. AND WE ARE WORST THAN LAYWERS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE OKAY BEING SLAVES!
it seems like nobody has self respect. Everyone is okay being a slave, because if we've been taught that in school. Teachers would actually tell me not to sleep in order to finish their shitty, good for nothing assignment. I swear to god it should be equivalent to sexual harassment when you teacher tells you to NOT SLEEP. How the fuck is this normal is beyond me. I'm 27 y/o, I've been working for almost 3 years, never in my life have I stayed all night to finish something. I would rather stop at some point and continue when I'm fresh the next day, and it always worked because I mange my time correctly and efficiently. You are more capable of producing stuff if you are well rested, than if you are entering your 15th hour of work. I work at at chill small office, very reasonable hours and a relatively good pay. and everyone just feels ashamed to go home, even thought they is no deadline or anything. Those idots wait for the first one to go home so they can feel fine with. This profession shames people for going home! IT IS INSANE! I mean, how is this legal?
One thing I think isn't mentioned enough is the toxic work culture of certain cities / regions that permeates the architectural communities of that city.
When I lived in DC I was worked to death, but so were the consultants and the hill interns. I have colleagues in Manhattan who sleep at their desks for less money than I make in a much more affordable market. In Portland, I've yet to work more than 60 hours in a week. I rarely come in on weekends or stay past 7pm. And when I take vacations my principals excitedly ask for pictures of the trip. They value balance here.
Outside of a few starchitect firms, workaholic culture - I'd argue - is more closely correlated with location than industry.
The lowest of the low ? Lmao, I doubt so. I get your point even though I don't get why it makes you so upset... just... do you ?
Your statement is definetely not applicable to the majority of architects in this world, but portrays a reality your young-self is currently exposed to. Just keep preaching the good word (with a chiller vibe lol), and maybe people will actually follow your advice. (if they feel like it)
But anyway, any individual in any given profession is entitled to live and work the way it suits himself/herself, some people actually enjoy these crazy schedules, they live for it like you said. As long as they are happy with their lives well.. it's their business not ours.
(Important to note that 9-5 pm jobs are often not realistic when you own your business.. not everybody is an employee...)
I'm not going to read this angst-filled teenage rant. What's your point?
I work 40 to 42hr weeks and bend my schedule around my family commitments. Plenty of folks do this and only very few are dumb enough to accept terrible gigs as you describe.
Same here! As an office, we maybe pull 1-2 all-nighters once a year. Other than that my entire staff is working 40 hours, unless they want to work more!
Mar 20, 19 1:47 pm ·
·
joseffischer
hah, poop... I only demand my employees work 24 hours straight once or twice a year... otherwise I let them work as much as they feel like they need to in order to keep their jobs.
How do you know that everyone is sitting around feeling ashamed to go home from the firm, if you yourself aren't one of those idiots? If you're the enlightened one who leaves on time then A) you're solving the problem for everyone who doesn't want to be the first to go, and B) you aren't there to see what the others do, whether they're ashamed, or how late they stay.
Mar 20, 19 9:41 am ·
·
Gaidamack
I go home first. then they follow. We talked about it, they confirmed it is the case.
Mar 20, 19 9:48 am ·
·
Flatfish
Great - problem solved. Keep doing that. Stop worrying about what your coworkers are doing.
Or consider a different firm, if that culture is getting to you. We don't all keep those hours, regardless of what your profs told you.
Just do what you do, the way you do it best. If you're most productive 09:00-17:00, good for you. I'm most productive between 13:30-18:30 and from 20:00-22:00/23:00, but I often have to work 09:30-18:00, because I work with people and have a family actually. So yeah, there's that.
World is filled with functional yet completely mediocre architecture that meets all bare minimums of competency. And meeting this minimum is no small task! It requires professional mastery to put together the most drab strip mall that looks exactly like million other places in every city.
If you have ever worked on a really generically awful project and then worked on a really great project that stands out in its effort, all of this would be very clear to you. Sadly, you do not receive a higher design fee for being really good at all the intangibles in the profession. Crap project will receive similar staffing as a really ambitious one.
Design is an integrally inefficient process. Pass a ladder to an architect stuck in a hole in the ground, and they will turn it into a shovel. What drives people to such madness? Probably that history is filled with truly exceptional architecture that is civilization defining. Some people like to believe that they are indeed part of something important.
You want a 9-5 job in Architecture? There is lots of that out there, guaranteed. Trick is to start building a portfolio of built crap really early on, and keep at it. Once you have spent a few years working on completely forgettable shit, expectations will be realistic from everyone going forward.
I never pulled an all nighter in undergrad nor grad. I've stayed at work past 9pm I think 4 times working in the profession for 6 years. Most people I know in the profession aren't working past 45hr/week. I think only select firms operate the way you speak of. And I agree they're lame for taking those conditions.
One thing I think isn't mentioned enough is the toxic work culture of certain cities / regions that permeates the architectural communities of that city.
When I lived in DC I was worked to death, but so were the consultants and the hill interns. I have colleagues in Manhattan who sleep at their desks for less money than I make in a much more affordable market. In Portland, I've yet to work more than 60 hours in a week. I rarely come in on weekends or stay past 7pm. And when I take vacations my principals excitedly ask for pictures of the trip. They value balance here.
Outside of a few starchitect firms, workaholic culture - I'd argue - is more closely correlated with location than industry.
This is something you’ll find in any industry and unfortunately if you are really working on ground breaking work in whatever field people will be pushing it. What’s a bummer with architecture is I found that pay was actually lower in the firms actually doing interesting work so it’s a double lose if you have a life. Also unfortunate, is it is definitely a fact that you need to look like you are putting in extra effort just to remain employable and this is most easily measured in hours not output with disconnected bosses. My first job demonstrated this perfectly with their flexible hour schedule where you could arrive anytime between 7-9am and leave 8 hours after. What I found was that when I opted for the 7am to 4pm schedule managers were raising their eyebrows if I left technically late at 430 but when I switched to 9-6 around 530 managers would pass by and be like “still here!? Go home!” And I would leave under 8 hours. Just another example of a potentially awesome policy ruined by the American workaholic lifestyle.
Mar 21, 19 9:32 pm ·
·
archi_dude
Rick have you ever actually worked in an office?
Mar 22, 19 12:40 pm ·
·
tduds
Swing and a miss.
Mar 22, 19 1:45 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
"swing and a miss" You're assuming Ricky B was even dressed and standing in the correct field. Looks more like he showed up at a bowling alley 3 towns over.
Mar 22, 19 1:49 pm ·
·
Steeplechase
I’ve been in an operating room before. I have a table and a X-
acto knife, so I’m pretty much a surgeon.
Mar 22, 19 5:54 pm ·
·
tduds
This is all so hilariously irrelevant. Keep going.
Mar 22, 19 6:49 pm ·
·
tduds
"So lets say you are suppose to produce some deliverable at a certain stage of the project by the end of the month. You put whatever time is required to meet deadline."
If you're regularly pulling long nights + weekends to meet deadlines either you / your boss has unrealistic expectations (in which case the culture needs changing) or you are bad at time management (in which case get your shit together). Everything else you've written is superfluous.
Mar 25, 19 11:25 am ·
·
Steeplechase
Funny, just last week I told a client we would not meet their deadline. I clearly justified our decision and they accepted. Had a conversation today about how to handle another client and the likely scenario of rejecting their deadlines.
Mar 25, 19 1:28 pm ·
·
tduds
How many clients have you had?
Mar 26, 19 3:34 pm ·
·
eeayeeayo
Before the hemming and hawing begins, Rick: how many clients have you had who were NOT one or more of the following:
1.
related to you;
2. assigned to you in connection with academic requirements;
3. contracting you for one-time tasks very peripherally related to building design, such as but not limited to: serving as a document courier, un-sticking a nail from a stuck window, or locating old plans in an institution's files?
4. associated with tasks entirely unrelated to building design, such as but not limited to: movie theater maintenance; electronics repair; or shifts on the back of a garbage truck?
Mar 26, 19 3:57 pm ·
·
tduds
"The average client is about 5'-9" tall and caucasian..." etc.
Mar 26, 19 5:29 pm ·
·
Witty Banter
Not surprising he's once again chosen to ignore this question.
The lowest of the low ? Lmao, I doubt so. I get your point even though I don't get why it makes you so upset... just... do you ?
Your statement is definetely not applicable to the majority of architects in this world, but portrays a reality your young-self is currently exposed to. Just keep preaching the good word (with a chiller vibe lol), and maybe people will actually follow your advice. (if they feel like it)
But anyway, any individual in any given profession is entitled to live and work the way it suits himself/herself, some people actually enjoy these crazy schedules, they live for it like you said. As long as they are happy with their lives well.. it's their business not ours.
(Important to note that 9-5 pm jobs are often not realistic when you own your business.. not everybody is an employee...)
After four years in your company you should be able to see which employees lack intelligence and which ones are just there for a paycheck. Neither is better than the other. But here’s what works for me. Accountability. I’ll ask or tell them (Usually the new guys in IT) to do something. I add in “If anything goes wrong tell your direct supervisor that I told you to do it.” It works two fold:
the AIA is mostly complicit in controlling the profession with scarcity mindset, restricting the ability of new firms that could do better for less time. But they want to keep the fees high for a few big firms. So you end up with people abused and overworked to get ahead. Designing and building isn’t that hard, it’s just all of this BS process that the profession has ingrained in the culture.
Why it’s better to be in a parallel profession that has more power over design and less bureaucracy
Never in my career (professional and student) have I done an all nighter.
For me a big week is 50 - 60 hours and I refuse to do more than 6 of those a year. The odd thing is while working in MN I did no overtime, in fact you had to get approval to do overtime. Now that I'm here in CO it seems that unpaid overtime is expected. To be fair the firm I'm at gives you a year end bonus that typically covers your overtime but it's never guaranteed.
Jan 2, 20 2:01 pm ·
·
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This field is filled with absolute idiots and it is destroying the profession
Idiots as in people who are OK with working 18hr a day, 6-7 days a week.
I mean, what is wrong with you? I've seen a lot of people like you, I've started seeing you in school where you would stay up all night because "that's how we do it the studio haha staying up all night #studiolife" hahahaha you're an utter imbecile! staying up all night just to draw a mediocre one section or whatever. People actually think it is "cool" to stay late working on fucking architecture! You're not an engineer at NASA, you're now curing cancer, you're a fucking architect! you are drawing floor plans! you are not even an architect! you are CAD monkey and bad one at that. zero efficiency, zero time management. zero skill.
It's a tedious profession, you need redraw, edit and change your design constantly, what makes it very time consuming. I get that it's slow, and it takes a lot of time to come together. But how is it physically possible to be a productive person if you work 24/7? No way an employee who comes at 9 am, goes home at 11 pm (and that's one of the "reasonable" days from what I gather. Disgusting!) is more productive that one who works 40-45 hours a week, sleeps well, fucks his/her bf/gf from time to time, eats well, go outside. Jesus. I seriously would get the sacrifice if it was for the greater good or if you actually made money, but no, we are architects. the lowest of the low. We are worst than lawyers. AND WE ARE WORST THAN LAYWERS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE OKAY BEING SLAVES!
it seems like nobody has self respect. Everyone is okay being a slave, because if we've been taught that in school. Teachers would actually tell me not to sleep in order to finish their shitty, good for nothing assignment. I swear to god it should be equivalent to sexual harassment when you teacher tells you to NOT SLEEP. How the fuck is this normal is beyond me. I'm 27 y/o, I've been working for almost 3 years, never in my life have I stayed all night to finish something. I would rather stop at some point and continue when I'm fresh the next day, and it always worked because I mange my time correctly and efficiently. You are more capable of producing stuff if you are well rested, than if you are entering your 15th hour of work. I work at at chill small office, very reasonable hours and a relatively good pay. and everyone just feels ashamed to go home, even thought they is no deadline or anything. Those idots wait for the first one to go home so they can feel fine with. This profession shames people for going home! IT IS INSANE! I mean, how is this legal?
2 Featured Comments
One thing I think isn't mentioned enough is the toxic work culture of certain cities / regions that permeates the architectural communities of that city.
When I lived in DC I was worked to death, but so were the consultants and the hill interns. I have colleagues in Manhattan who sleep at their desks for less money than I make in a much more affordable market. In Portland, I've yet to work more than 60 hours in a week. I rarely come in on weekends or stay past 7pm. And when I take vacations my principals excitedly ask for pictures of the trip. They value balance here.
Outside of a few starchitect firms, workaholic culture - I'd argue - is more closely correlated with location than industry.
The lowest of the low ? Lmao, I doubt so. I get your point even though I don't get why it makes you so upset... just... do you ?
Your statement is definetely not applicable to the majority of architects in this world, but portrays a reality your young-self is currently exposed to. Just keep preaching the good word (with a chiller vibe lol), and maybe people will actually follow your advice. (if they feel like it)
But anyway, any individual in any given profession is entitled to live and work the way it suits himself/herself, some people actually enjoy these crazy schedules, they live for it like you said. As long as they are happy with their lives well.. it's their business not ours.
(Important to note that 9-5 pm jobs are often not realistic when you own your business.. not everybody is an employee...)
All 19 Comments
I'm not going to read this angst-filled teenage rant. What's your point?
I work 40 to 42hr weeks and bend my schedule around my family commitments. Plenty of folks do this and only very few are dumb enough to accept terrible gigs as you describe.
You just did, and my point it pretty clear. People have no respect for themselves and ruin the profession. You are not doing that, so thank you.
Same here! As an office, we maybe pull 1-2 all-nighters once a year. Other than that my entire staff is working 40 hours, unless they want to work more!
hah, poop... I only demand my employees work 24 hours straight once or twice a year... otherwise I let them work as much as they feel like they need to in order to keep their jobs.
How do you know that everyone is sitting around feeling ashamed to go home from the firm, if you yourself aren't one of those idiots? If you're the enlightened one who leaves on time then A) you're solving the problem for everyone who doesn't want to be the first to go, and B) you aren't there to see what the others do, whether they're ashamed, or how late they stay.
I go home first. then they follow. We talked about it, they confirmed it is the case.
Great - problem solved. Keep doing that. Stop worrying about what your coworkers are doing.
Or consider a different firm, if that culture is getting to you. We don't all keep those hours, regardless of what your profs told you.
Just do what you do, the way you do it best. If you're most productive 09:00-17:00, good for you. I'm most productive between 13:30-18:30 and from 20:00-22:00/23:00, but I often have to work 09:30-18:00, because I work with people and have a family actually. So yeah, there's that.
There are plenty of firms that don't operate that way. I would suggest finding one.
World is filled with functional yet completely mediocre architecture that meets all bare minimums of competency. And meeting this minimum is no small task! It requires professional mastery to put together the most drab strip mall that looks exactly like million other places in every city.
If you have ever worked on a really generically awful project and then worked on a really great project that stands out in its effort, all of this would be very clear to you. Sadly, you do not receive a higher design fee for being really good at all the intangibles in the profession. Crap project will receive similar staffing as a really ambitious one.
Design is an integrally inefficient process. Pass a ladder to an architect stuck in a hole in the ground, and they will turn it into a shovel. What drives people to such madness? Probably that history is filled with truly exceptional architecture that is civilization defining. Some people like to believe that they are indeed part of something important.
You want a 9-5 job in Architecture? There is lots of that out there, guaranteed. Trick is to start building a portfolio of built crap really early on, and keep at it. Once you have spent a few years working on completely forgettable shit, expectations will be realistic from everyone going forward.
It sounds like you are on a good path.
first couple of statements are spot on...
Lmaooo, could not agree more, thank you.
100% Rusty. Everyone should listen to Renzo Piano interview with Charlie Rose on the Whitney in NY.
Amen, Rusty!
MDWed
Well said Rusty! This is absolutely spot on and a very clear and concise summary of the profession of architecture.
Have any of you read this article?
http://www.harvarddesignmagazi...
Thanks for that, great read. A bit dense but very recognizable, made it till paragraph 21 on my train ride, will finish later. Cheers David!
I just did. Thank you for the suggestion.
That's a great essay. Thanks.
Great read.
I never pulled an all nighter in undergrad nor grad. I've stayed at work past 9pm I think 4 times working in the profession for 6 years. Most people I know in the profession aren't working past 45hr/week. I think only select firms operate the way you speak of. And I agree they're lame for taking those conditions.
Related feature published today:
Unhappy with Architecture's Grueling Work Culture, Kimberly Neuhaus Carves Out Her Own Space
If you plan your work you can cut the hours.
Design is an integrally inefficient process.
Architecture is an integrally inefficient process.
There, fixed it for you.
One thing I think isn't mentioned enough is the toxic work culture of certain cities / regions that permeates the architectural communities of that city.
When I lived in DC I was worked to death, but so were the consultants and the hill interns. I have colleagues in Manhattan who sleep at their desks for less money than I make in a much more affordable market. In Portland, I've yet to work more than 60 hours in a week. I rarely come in on weekends or stay past 7pm. And when I take vacations my principals excitedly ask for pictures of the trip. They value balance here.
Outside of a few starchitect firms, workaholic culture - I'd argue - is more closely correlated with location than industry.
This is something you’ll find in any industry and unfortunately if you are really working on ground breaking work in whatever field people will be pushing it. What’s a bummer with architecture is I found that pay was actually lower in the firms actually doing interesting work so it’s a double lose if you have a life. Also unfortunate, is it is definitely a fact that you need to look like you are putting in extra effort just to remain employable and this is most easily measured in hours not output with disconnected bosses. My first job demonstrated this perfectly with their flexible hour schedule where you could arrive anytime between 7-9am and leave 8 hours after. What I found was that when I opted for the 7am to 4pm schedule managers were raising their eyebrows if I left technically late at 430 but when I switched to 9-6 around 530 managers would pass by and be like “still here!? Go home!” And I would leave under 8 hours. Just another example of a potentially awesome policy ruined by the American workaholic lifestyle.
Rick have you ever actually worked in an office?
Swing and a miss.
"swing and a miss" You're assuming Ricky B was even dressed and standing in the correct field. Looks more like he showed up at a bowling alley 3 towns over.
I’ve been in an operating room before. I have a table and a X-
acto knife, so I’m pretty much a surgeon.
This is all so hilariously irrelevant. Keep going.
"So lets say you are suppose to produce some deliverable at a certain stage of the project by the end of the month. You put whatever time is required to meet deadline."
If you're regularly pulling long nights + weekends to meet deadlines either you / your boss has unrealistic expectations (in which case the culture needs changing) or you are bad at time management (in which case get your shit together). Everything else you've written is superfluous.
Funny, just last week I told a client we would not meet their deadline. I clearly justified our decision and they accepted. Had a conversation today about how to handle another client and the likely scenario of rejecting their deadlines.
How many clients have you had?
Before the hemming and hawing begins, Rick: how many clients have you had who were NOT one or more of the following:
1. related to you;
2. assigned to you in connection with academic requirements;
3. contracting you for one-time tasks very peripherally related to building design, such as but not limited to: serving as a document courier, un-sticking a nail from a stuck window, or locating old plans in an institution's files?
4. associated with tasks entirely unrelated to building design, such as but not limited to: movie theater maintenance; electronics repair; or shifts on the back of a garbage truck?
"The average client is about 5'-9" tall and caucasian..." etc.
Not surprising he's once again chosen to ignore this question.
The lowest of the low ? Lmao, I doubt so. I get your point even though I don't get why it makes you so upset... just... do you ?
Your statement is definetely not applicable to the majority of architects in this world, but portrays a reality your young-self is currently exposed to. Just keep preaching the good word (with a chiller vibe lol), and maybe people will actually follow your advice. (if they feel like it)
But anyway, any individual in any given profession is entitled to live and work the way it suits himself/herself, some people actually enjoy these crazy schedules, they live for it like you said. As long as they are happy with their lives well.. it's their business not ours.
(Important to note that 9-5 pm jobs are often not realistic when you own your business.. not everybody is an employee...)
Pfft, designing is easy. I do most of the designing in the back of my head while doing other things. I just designed a diagram while typing this
Comes natural to me, do it I.
in my sleep. Very efficient. Only problem it's not always billable ;)
After four years in your company you should be able to see which employees lack intelligence and which ones are just there for a paycheck. Neither is better than the other. But here’s what works for me. Accountability. I’ll ask or tell them (Usually the new guys in IT) to do something. I add in “If anything goes wrong tell your direct supervisor that I told you to do it.” It works two fold:
I’m accountable and I’m never wrong.
The culture at KPF and SOM is EXACTLY the way you describe... lol
Screw 40, where are these new 4x 10's or 32/hr week jobs?
Not sure about 4x10, but 9/80 is fairly common. For
the AIA is mostly complicit in controlling the profession with scarcity mindset, restricting the ability of new firms that could do better for less time. But they want to keep the fees high for a few big firms. So you end up with people abused and overworked to get ahead. Designing and building isn’t that hard, it’s just all of this BS process that the profession has ingrained in the culture.
Why it’s better to be in a parallel profession that has more power over design and less bureaucracy
I started my career at 'Skidmore and thought it was normal to put in 70 hr weeks and an occasional all nighter
Never in my career (professional and student) have I done an all nighter.
For me a big week is 50 - 60 hours and I refuse to do more than 6 of those a year. The odd thing is while working in MN I did no overtime, in fact you had to get approval to do overtime. Now that I'm here in CO it seems that unpaid overtime is expected. To be fair the firm I'm at gives you a year end bonus that typically covers your overtime but it's never guaranteed.
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