Many believe that ARE questions come from a finite pool and are thus reused periodically. People believe that you if write down all of the questions you remember, others can study them and perhaps get asked the same questions when they take the test. All of this is against NCARB's rules that candidates agree to abide by.

Most of them had ties to SOM, so I assume they had a little study party where people shared a bit too much. Apparently, there was a group member who blew the whistle. Seems rough.

Definitely not me, 5839, thanks for making that clear!

I do remember that. It was actually entertaining.

Indeed, bump in the road. Pritzkers for all in 30 years.

What is a minor infraction?

Minor would be forgot to renew license and signed a drawing, or held yourself out to be an architect, with an expired license.

Yes and yes. And/or not executing a contract before commencing work.

"I'm curious what materials or information they had.."and if they're willing to share!

Don't work at firms who monitor your every fucking email?

When I came out of the tests I always did a post-test brain dump, so that I could look up the answers and see roughly how I did (this was 15+ years ago, when the results used to take 2 months on average, so I wanted to have an inkling as to whether I should start studying for that test again!) For most I was able to remember more than 80% of the questions - though not always all the answer choices. Still if I'd let those lists into the wild, it would be pretty easy for NCARB to prove that it was a list of actual questions from one test. If this little study group was doing that, they collectively could have compiled the majority of most of the questions each saw.

NCARB doesn't say how many forms of each division are in play at once - but when I was a test content contributor, on another standardized professional test that a lot of design professionals take, it had only three forms. This means that that test has three complete versions in play at once, and when you take it you have an equal chance of encountering any of those. If you have a study group with 5+ people you'd have a good chance that all of those forms would be encountered by at least one member. When "Donna's List" was circulating, she had compiled many test questions verbatim, particularly from one test division, so it wasn't difficult for NCARB to show that those questions were all from one test form (and also she admitted to that online.)  If these guys were emailing test questions around after testing, that's a pretty damning trail.

Fair enough, I suppose I underestimated people's ability to recall test questions. Interesting note too about the multiple test "forms" in circulation.

Exactly. The sharing of the exam content with others is where a person violates the Candidate Agreement they entered into with NCARB.

I was under the impression that ARE 5 exams are generated randomly for each test. That each test is broken into chunks and each chunk grabs questions from its own database.

Yes, grabs questions from a database of limited questions. How large is that set and how many questions repeat enough that it would be helpful to cheat is unknown and unverifiable by the public, since it would require the public to share the questions with friends to see if they got the same questions, which is against conduct.

Arguably, if you've both passed the test in question, sharing your questions and answers shouldn't matter?  Still against conduct though.  I suspect that if I were to have polled around the office, I would have found repeat questions crop up, but even if I did, I wouldn't have a way of informing NCARB that their testing methodology is lazy and broken without outing myself... hmmm...  

Oh well, testing was a couple years back now, so it's not like I could remember any of it at this point.

Maybe the questions are generated randomly for each test, from a database. I don't know how the ARE works. But, that would be a little different from how it worked in previous versions, and how most standardized test development happens. It's more common for there to be entire test forms created - because in test development there are all sorts of rules about how many of each type of question there need to be, and each format, and intended difficulty level, and how the different test forms are weighted. And then the way the test is checked/tested with the subject matter developers and some rounds of pre-testers also usually involves the whole test. The result is that there are only a small number of entire tests. In the past that was always NCARB's excuse for why there is a waiting period - because if you could retake it right away you'd have a fairly high likelihood of encountering exactly the same form you'd already taken, and might still remember too many of the answers.

Do you throw away your umbrella in a rain storm if your feet get wet?

Bad analogy. The ARE does not protect the HSW of the public. It artificially bars entry while doing nothing to test knowledge. it's a memorization test, and can be passed through cramming.

What then, do you suggest? We use 'memorization tests' for nearly everything in our society. It is a practical method for analyzing a group against a basic standard. You are correct that the ARE is more a battle of wills then a test of knowledge. It is also the minimum threshold--much like designing to code. It's an imperfect system. But claiming we'd be better off with no system seems shortsighted at best. But then again, perhaps that's because the ARE is 10 years in my rearview-mirror.

It's a great analogy. How many more "bad actors" would get in without the ARE? May not prevent all "bad actors" but there are a lot less than there would be. Even if all it is is memorization at least you have to at least have the determination to do that.

As a measure of ability, the old paper version of the exam was much better. Taking a blank sheet of paper and generating a legible architectural solution is a true demonstration of skill. The current computer-based test is more about how much the candidate practices on the NCARB software to move around some goofy pre-made symbols.

I don't believe I suggested eliminating an exam as part of the path to becoming a licensed architect.

Well... typically if someone is licensed I do verify their license(s) and see if they've had any state disciplinary issues. Also if they say they have an NCARB certificate, LEED, or any other certifications then I verify those. This NCARB actions page is a new thing though, so I might not think to look there, and probably won't get in the habit of it quickly.

But I do also typically google prospective employees to see what pops up high in their results, so I guess I might find mentions of this on other sites, like on archinect. If I did then it might factor into a decision to hire them at this point in their careers - both because my perception of their maturity and good judgement is lowered, and because if they're not NCARB-certifiable then they may not be able to get licenses in the states in which our firm works, which would impact their usefulness on some projects, and their versatility in our proposals and such. But if it's 10 years from now, and they've gotten licensed and made strides in their careers, then I might view this as just a long-ago mistake that shouldn't factor into hiring decisions.

Many people who don't cheat and pass should not have licenses. Most of the people working for design firms don't need licenses. Our profession shoots itself in the foot on the daily.

What exactly are you trying the say? That the "diversed" NCARB 8

* That it was fate or an inevitable that a group of 8 "diverse" individuals would try to cheat or undermine the system that was trying to help them?

I think builder has one of those wall collages with red yarn
connecting black and white photographs.

This seems like a function of: being a large enough firm with enough relatively young staff that there was this large of a group of employees studying simultaneously; and this employer's location in a diverse city, long-standing world-wide reputation that attracts diverse applicants, and the firm's (relatively recent) tendency to hire a diverse staff. There's no reason to think that the diversity of the study group somehow contributed to its alleged misconduct - the diversity of the study group was just a circumstance of its location and employer.

But, I am curious about your assertion that NCARB has worked hard to increase diversity within the profession:  can you cite examples of NCARB's work on that?

LOL, worked hard to increase diversity?!? you mean the past 12 months of dragging out tokens since #metoo and #imWithHer movement vs well over a century of white guys dominating the profession?!? Hell its 2019 and I work in a city where its funny that all the work for past 20 years on all elementary, high schools and colleges seems to keep going to the same (2) all white, male dominated architecture firms and same all white all male construction firm! Not one minority architect, pm, cad tech, or even a black janitor! I interviewed with one of the arch firms like 15yrs ago and was told by the PA interviewing me and I quote "there are plenty of jobs around town, and if you dont have a job its because you are not looking in the right place!, thanks for coming in" I left thinking WTF does that mean! I have learn to develop a 6th sense about these things and this profession of white male dominance. Somedays I think to myself if I was white were would I be in my career! Hmm.... definitely in the good ol boys club

What exactly are you trying to say here, Builder2025?

Listen, kkklanchitect, the "profession" has already dealt with one of you - Heather assoc aia nazi in training we see you - take your white nationalism somewhere else.

What is unethical about the diversity within this bunch? Shouldn't it be the Diversity of the Unethical NCARB 8?

I'd even say these 8 are a triumph of our modern pluricultural times, 8 people from diverse backgrounds work together towards a common goal!

If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying. Welcome to the American Dream?

If this is not Hollywood material, Oceans Eight! With Brad Pitt and George Clooney as the ole white boys.

Did replies get nuked from this? I'm having trouble following.

It all makes sense in my head though...builder2025 appears to be racist, people call builder out and a movie script idea is born, aspiring architects from diverse backgrounds conspire together and work as a team to cheat NCARB u

Fence, I agree not all white people are in the good ol boys club and I will bet you your weight in gold no one approaches you and assume: you are a democrat, you only listen to hip hop music, you voted for Obama, you will need a child support form, you have AIDS so you cant use the community toilet, yo u didnt make it because you are a talent, you made it because of affirmative action, scared you will speak to much slang and scare of clients and staff, afraid your baby mama's may show up to office barefoot and loud! if the stapler or what ever go missing you stole it as if a stapler or IBC book at the pawn shop is worth anything, afraid no more black jokes can be told, afraid if they try to instruct you on something you will clap back and pull out a 9mm and shoot up the office like a white gangter, afraid you will go around the office asking people for money etc., colleagues conversation starters are leed with something about hip hop, sports, obama, dave chappel or gym shoes

:(

Sorry, if you're white, you're benefiting from a racist system; just the facts.

My frown was sympathetic / empathetic, not aimed at myself .

sneaky, i got you.

I apologize if it seems I am looking for sympathy, I was definitely not, just stating the challenges. Every office arch. (8 of them) I have worked in, with the exception of about 3-4 people,has always been a great group of girls and guys. Many of them are good friends and I definitely respected, looked up to and learned a ton from in my career

haha, nope not but

Fence, I apologize if you feel I was attacking you & got you all in your feelings, I was not. Majority of Americans get extremely uncomfortable & wierded out Talking about race or Jesus. I was just stating the hurdles minorities have to deal with in this & like professions. My point was good old boy organizations like AiA and NCARB, and even us the folks who make up the profession, are a joke when it comes to "doing all they can" to promote diversity.

I dont believe in life isnt fair. I believe and know, people aren't fair. Racism, sexism, machoism, chauvinim and all the other ism's are the blight of all humanity everywhere