ARCHITECTURAL INTERN
Firm:LivingHomes
Location:Santa Monica, CA, US
Posted on:Fri, Jun 17 '11
Position:
We're looking for an Architectural Intern to join our team. This is an unpaid internship. LivingHomes is a high-growth, startup environment so the successful candidate will have a demonstrated ability to work independently in a fast-paced work atmosphere. This person will also be creative, flexible and knowledgeable about design.
Primary responsibilities include, but are not limited to:
Collaborate with project architects to develop plans, elevations, sections, schedules and details of custom and standard homes.
Build and manage Revit models and design components.
Assist in the production of construction documents.
Assist in maintaining material libraries and sourcing new fixtures, finishes, and equipment.
Qualifications:
2-4 years prior work experience with AutoCAD 2009
1-2 years prior work experience with Revit 2010 min , familiarity with energy modeling a plus.
Interest in sustainable design , architecture and pre fab.
Pursuing or earned BS , BA or MARCH in Architecture.
Other Requirements:
Good written and verbal communication skills. Ability to complete projects with minimal supervision, self-directed, resourceful, and goal oriented. An eye for detail and a desire to perform at a high level. A sense of humor.(SERIOUSLY?)
Software:
Proficiency with AutoCAD, Revit and Sketchup Experience with the following: Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop. Experience with 3D Studio, VRay and any other rendering programs a plus.
Familiarity with Microsoft Office suite of products helpful.
Salary/Benefits:
This is an unpaid internship. Benefits including the opportunity to work with great architects, to create homes that improve the quality of living for people and the planet, (YES THAT WAS MY DREAM!!!!) and to surf during lunch (our office is blocks from the ocean)(WOW GREAT)
To Apply:
Please submit cover letter, resume, and samples of work in .PDF format to [email protected]. No calls, please.
Visit our site for other internship opportunities: http://www.livinghomes.net/internships.html
Is that reasonable job offer in these days?
Is 5~6 years of education(money, time, effort, skill, whatever) for an unpaid position because they give you a chance to work and to be with the magnificent architects like them?
And surfing?
Even mopping gets paid. Well, if the position is just for fun and play, than maybe i am wrong. But the requirements they are asking look not a joke for me.
Thank god, super luckily, I am working now as an architect intern and get fully paid including insurance whatever everything.
I am just wondering whether I don't understand the true architecture field or the most architects forget what they were before?
Maybe it´s a naive question, as a non-US citizen: but why isn´t anyone (the AIA, for instance) taking any real measures against such firms? Because it´s not just bad for the employees, but also harming the business in total, as these firms can compete on an uneven playing field, financially speaking. If you have 3 fully paid employees on a project, your fee needs to be quite a bit higher than when you have 3 unpaid slaves around...
Someone will take this and finance the internship through some sort of illicit or unfair way (loans, student loans, parents, financial aid, black market). After working for a few months at this craphole probably doing a whole lot of nothing, a more respectable paying firm will instantly see value in this freshly trained and experienced person. That person will get a decent job.
In the mean time, the person who was unwilling to work for free is months or even possibly years into trying to land a entry-level career position. Unable to find that "step into a career" job that actually pays, that disenfranchised person will probably continue to work a menial job, end up chronically unemployed or homeless.
They'll probably start engaging in risky behavior due to a lack of confidence and will more than likely end up with a ton of children on welfare, become morbidly obese, fall gravely ill with anything from diabetes or HIV, develop a healthy addiction to booze, pills, cocaine, crack or meth or end up homeless.
We will then read the story of said sad case 3 weeks post-mortem on CNN and 60% of the people will respond with, "WHUTS A LOOSER.,. THYEDESRVTED IT.! Y CULDNT THEY JUST GO OUT & GIT A JERB LKE SOO MENY HARD WURKEING AMERICANS. GOOD BLESS ERVY1 XCEPT THIS JOKER!"
I love ppl who are so full of them selves that they think working for them is such an experience that it = a $30,000 salary. And James R, I know where you are tying to go with this, but it is bullshit to work for free in america. Not all of us come from rich families that can support us while we go off and work for some idealist and get paid in surfing. I had a kid by the time is was 24, which is about the time i had the experience this guy is looking for with revit and i just got my M.Arch a year eairlier. How would i pay for my family to survie on a unpaid internship. Its bad enough that the paid internships pay like shit. I woldnt be as upset if he was looking for a summer intern that was a year or two into an undergraduate program, but to be looking for someone with a degree, and a masters none the less , and experience, then they want to pay them nothing! This guy needs to pull his head out of his ass and realize there is a recession going on and ppl are hurting.
smda, where did you find this job post? Because before I encourage people to flood their office with polite but firm reminders that what they are offering is illegal, and possibly contacting the employment office of their state, I want to be sure you're not making it up or misunderstanding it.
Since the staff here seems to oppose unpaid internships, how can they justify accepting these ads?
Jun 21, 11 10:24 am ·
·
Unpaid internships should be mandatory in architecture just to weed out all the whiny people who keep complaining that the profession doesn't pay enough money.
Of course, that would probably be the death of the archinect forum...or at least half of its posts, yo!
So I guess you never had to "whine" because you couldn't pay your rent one month CashMoney? Give me a break, I hope you are just trying to be cute, because anyone who believes you should go to school for 6+ years with massive school loans only to come out and work for free is either stupid or out of touch with reality.
a friend recently encountered a student from one of the powerhouse Ivy grad programs who basically threw herself at a firm for a summer internship, offering to work for nothing before the issue even came up. then the intern wanted idp credit, and my friend, who was her supervisor, refused to grant it, pissing everyone off in the process. i think they just expected her to 'reward' the unpaid intern...
i'm glad she did, but it sucks that it has to come down to that...
What was her reason for not granting the credit? Was it that she truly felt the internt did not earn the time, or did she not want to trade pay for idp credits?
speaking for myself, not her, there are so many things wrong with it--
--first off that, as noah says, it's illegal. you are rewarding someone for work they're doing illegally. they are not only being exploited, but working outside all labor laws. no protection from harassment, unsafe conditions, etc. who wants to put their name on that, as a supervisor or mentor??
-if you grant the hours, you're contributing to a culture of exploitation. you work for me for free, i lie for you and give you idp credit. if this takes off, why should anyone pay ANY workers who are still in their internship period (about ten years now, on average...)?
-idp is supposed to be professional training, not educational. you are supposed to be functioning as an architect-in-training and treated as such. part of this is BEING PAID FOR YOUR WORK.
-you are further privileging the privileged. if the ivy girl can afford to work for idp credit, what happens to the students who can't?
@ Hence: "anyone who believes you should go to school for 6+ years with massive school loans only come out to and work for free is either stupid or out of touch with reality"
Let me start by saying that I do NOT condone unpaid internships nor do I, or my firm, ever employ unpaid interns. Unpaid internships are, in my eyes, an abomination.
Nevertheless, I find in the sentence quoted above a sense of entitlement and naivety that is, in and of itself, equally disturbing.
The fact that one goes "to school for 6+ years with massive school loans" does not entitle someone to a) a job; b) a paying job, or c) a well paying job. The availability of work - at any pay level - is determined fundamentally by the state of the economy and the ability of that economy to generate sufficient economic activity, and stabilitly, to warrant the massive investment required to build, or renovate, structures.
When one takes a long-term view at the relationship between graduation rates and the inability of the profession to sustain high levels of architectural employment for long periods of time, there seems to be a severe disconnect. When that happens, I suppose it is inevitable that during downturns some firms will attempt to use unpaid interns and some recent graduates - for their own reasons - will accept such positions.
This doesn't make it right - but, it is possible to understand the motivations on both sides. The only way it will stop is if all individual graduates refuse to accept such positions. Despite our repugnance when examples are brought to light, I don't see that refusal happening across the board.
It just means that they blew the entire fee on better paid staff who did less and and they need some poor unsuspecting lower-level employee to ne given a "rewarding experience."
file, I did not mean to portray a sense of entitlement, but I do think you deserver to get paid for your work. And I think that if you are willing to work for free than, yes you have your reasons, desperation, or you have enough money in the bank to support your self. I suppose my inital reaction boilied my blood too much and I came across with more venom then I ment to. Not every kid should get a trophy for coming in last place, and not every intern should make the maxium pay. But sometimes you do feel used as an intern...
I suppose it is inevitable that during downturns some firms will attempt to use unpaid interns
So it's also inevitable that during this economic downturn I should attempt to steal my groceries or rob a bank?
Not paying people who do work for you is ILLEGAL except under strictly defined circumstances published by the Department of Justice. I guarantee you Living Homes ad doesn't meet those circumstances. Archinect (and all job boards) shouldn't be posting unpaid internship ads and Archinect has removed those ads in the past. Students should not be accepting unpaid internships. But finally it comes down to the employers: employers who break the law should be stopped, fined, whatever it takes. If no unpaid positions exists, then no naive students will ever be faced with the quandary of whether to accept one.
@ Donna: "So it's also inevitable that during this economic downturn I should attempt to steal my groceries or rob a bank?" -- no, certainly not you. But it does seem inevitable that economic need will drive some people to steal groceries or rob banks. It's sad, and it's wrong, but it does happen.
@ Donna: "If no unpaid positions exists, then no naive students will ever be faced with the quandary of whether to accept one." - That would work too !
Jun 21, 11 2:00 pm ·
·
If the economy turns down far enough then, yes, it is inevitable that you will do whatever you need to do to survive. When you've got an empty stomach, stealing groceries isn't such a bad idea.
Robbing a bank is probably a better idea but it is also much harder to pull off successfully, yo!
every time i see one of these ads, i send a copy over to the department of labor and the AIA.
Apparently the AIA has a rule....
If the architect in question is an AIA member, and the AIA finds out that theyre not paying interns, that architect will never become an AIA fellow, (FAIA). I dont know if it's a new rule. The AIA usually tells me they will send out a letter and warning to that architect.
To add injury to insult, if this firm (as the name and description suggests) bases its practice on private house commissions, doesn't that make it that much worse? I assume that clients who can afford to have their own house fully custom-designed are typically in the upper-bracket of income. This would lead me to believe that the firms taking these commissions would absolutely be able to afford to pay their interns.
BenC, I think what you said is just excatly what makes me so mad about some coorporatipons in this country. The guys at the top get all the cash and the guys below, in this case, get nothing. I don't think everyone should be paid the same and the guys who run the company are entitled to make more, but how much more do you really need to make?
Is this even a real architecture firm? From the looks of it, it appears they are more of a construction service. In this case, the 'internship' may not be what we would really consider an 'internship' as architects:
http://www.livinghomes.net/about.html
http://www.livinghomes.net/viewPerson.html?id=1 - no mention of being an architect (actually, more of a categorical denial).
According to their website, this seems to be some kind of tract-home company that uses famous architects for their designs (the firm really, really highly touts Ray Kappe and KieranTimberlake).
I hate saying this but Architects need somekind of union to go out and educate people on this stuff and stand up for workers rights. I know we have the AIA, but what do they do really? Every employer I have had has expected me to work over time and not be paid for it. I even got fired from a job because I refused to work overtime durring christmas because I wanted to spend time with my mother who had cancer and died the following august. (oh and that same asshole hired his students as unpaid summer interns) Im just sick of the business end of this field. I love architecture and the work, but I just feel like sometimes we get treated like dirt.
"Architects need somekind of union" and "every employer I have had has expected me to work over time and not be paid for it."
Those are 'blue collar' sentiments that never seem to gain much traction in what is otherwise a 'professional' environment.
Too many in the profession do get treated like dirt, but those are the situations that get the most air time. Perhaps it's just the part of the country where I work, but my experience suggests that the vast majority of firms strive to treat their employees fairly and with considerable dignity. The challenge seems to be finding the good firms to approach and identifying the bad firms to avoid.
I don't think it is a blue collar ideal to be compensated for your time. It dosn't need to be pay, but some level of apprication is nice, and i know there are places out there that get that. But there are a lot of places that take advantage of the fact that the can expect young interns to work 50 -60 hrs or more a week and only pay them for 40 and just say "well this is a professional enviromet and thats how it is" Thats why I think we need a way to group together, not to go on stike like the airlines or something, but just to establish a basic level of expectations and have that known in the industry and known to students so they don't get taken advantage of.
I think it would be better if we spent more energy examining WHY this occurs, rather than bemoaning the fact that it does. Debating the particulars of its incidence is not debating its incidence.
I was once at an interview which I believed to ba normal mid-size firm in NYC and at the end of it they propositioned me for an "unpaid internship" which they described as a "fellowship" - it was bullshit.
Funny thing is that they asked me if I had any other offers on the table and I said yes - it was at a much larger corporate firm in DC which was paid. They tried to convince me to stay away from there because of how "corporate" it was and that it's a place where architects "sell-out."
"I don't think it is a blue collar ideal to be compensated for your time."
I certainly understand that point of view. However, to the extent you're addressing the 'unpaid overtime' issue, when one has earned a "professional' degree, wage and labor laws in virtually every state definitely allow firms to characterize, and pay, such individuals as salaried employees. Typically, that means you work as needed to accomplish the requirements of your positions.
Many firms do not classify all graduate architects as salaried employees (my firm, for example) -- frequently, only those who have accumulated a certain amount of experience get bumped into the salaried realm, typically with a raise.
Our firm pays all entry level employees on an hourly basis (with paid overtime at 1.5 times their regular hourly rate) -- our logic being that inexperienced staff rarely know enough about the process and the work required to have any meaningful influence over how many hours are needed - or appropriate - for the task at hand.
Stone that is an good method for interns, I wish I had a chance to work with more employeers that shared your vision. I have seen too many times where interns are lured in with the offer of a salary and benfits and then are left scratching their heads when they are stuck at the office till 12:30 at nite finishing a dead line and not getting "paid" for it. I would think that one fix to this situation would be better preperation on the part of interns looking for their first jobs. I don't know if that should fall on the Universities or on the interns themselves.
"I don't know if [preparing upcoming graduates for the job search] should fall on the Universities or on the interns themselves."
My experience is that the placement offices in most universities don't have a clue -- or even care -- about helping graduate architects find appropriate employment. I always found this strange, since most universities seem to go out of their way to really help students in other departments. My guess is that they just don't have any real understanding of our professional environment.
I also observe that most soon-to-be-graduates in architecture don't really seek out that sort of help from their university. Not sure if we're dealing with the chicken or the egg here!
In the best of all worlds, the topic of preparing upcoming graduates for the job search probably would work best if it were a significant component of the Pro-Practice course offered by most schools. Of course, that would force the schools to admit - out loud - that the job market for upcoming graduates sucks -- and we know that's not going to happen.
you know - I've met a lot of people who've only worked for smaller boutique firms who seem very uninformed about federal labor laws. so I wonder how many people choose to do something illegal because there's very little risk, and how many people are just ignorant.
So I responded to the job posting basically telling this firm that i think they are garbage for using unpaid interns. and here is the responce i got back Thank you for contacting us.
We receive a large number of submissions for our positions � and we�re a small company � so we can�t always follow-up with everyone individually. We apologize.
Please know, however, that we do review every resume and if we think there�s a fit, you will hear from us to discuss our position further.
Again, we appreciate your support and consideration.
Some states have their own laws on the subject.[20] Laws in the state of California, for example, require an employer to pay its interns working in California unless the intern receives college credit for the labor.[20]
To hell with the AIA and Washington. That NYT article pretty much came out and said unpaid internships are 99% illegal and rarely punished. We need to find some underemployed lawyer who wants to sue these cheap p$#$@. The idea comes to me based on a lawyer I read about who spends all his time suing companies that spam him. It's like his own little business with his law degree. I wonder if a lawyer could run a similar business chasing after companies that don't pay interns making his money by settling out of court or winning damages? What is the actual fine/penalty for breaking the labor law?
Unpaid Internship
ARCHITECTURAL INTERN
Firm:LivingHomes
Location:Santa Monica, CA, US
Posted on:Fri, Jun 17 '11
Position:
We're looking for an Architectural Intern to join our team. This is an unpaid internship. LivingHomes is a high-growth, startup environment so the successful candidate will have a demonstrated ability to work independently in a fast-paced work atmosphere. This person will also be creative, flexible and knowledgeable about design.
Primary responsibilities include, but are not limited to:
Collaborate with project architects to develop plans, elevations, sections, schedules and details of custom and standard homes.
Build and manage Revit models and design components.
Assist in the production of construction documents.
Assist in maintaining material libraries and sourcing new fixtures, finishes, and equipment.
Qualifications:
2-4 years prior work experience with AutoCAD 2009
1-2 years prior work experience with Revit 2010 min , familiarity with energy modeling a plus.
Interest in sustainable design , architecture and pre fab.
Pursuing or earned BS , BA or MARCH in Architecture.
Other Requirements:
Good written and verbal communication skills.
Ability to complete projects with minimal supervision, self-directed, resourceful, and goal oriented.
An eye for detail and a desire to perform at a high level.
A sense of humor.(SERIOUSLY?)
Software:
Proficiency with AutoCAD, Revit and Sketchup
Experience with the following: Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop.
Experience with 3D Studio, VRay and any other rendering programs a plus.
Familiarity with Microsoft Office suite of products helpful.
Salary/Benefits:
This is an unpaid internship. Benefits including the opportunity to work with great architects, to create homes that improve the quality of living for people and the planet, (YES THAT WAS MY DREAM!!!!) and to surf during lunch (our office is blocks from the ocean)(WOW GREAT)
To Apply:
Please submit cover letter, resume, and samples of work in .PDF format to [email protected]. No calls, please.
Visit our site for other internship opportunities: http://www.livinghomes.net/internships.html
Is that reasonable job offer in these days?
Is 5~6 years of education(money, time, effort, skill, whatever) for an unpaid position because they give you a chance to work and to be with the magnificent architects like them?
And surfing?
Even mopping gets paid. Well, if the position is just for fun and play, than maybe i am wrong. But the requirements they are asking look not a joke for me.
Thank god, super luckily, I am working now as an architect intern and get fully paid including insurance whatever everything.
I am just wondering whether I don't understand the true architecture field or the most architects forget what they were before?
2-4 years prior experience. Lovely.
You forgot the punchline.
Wait for it...
Wait...
<drumroll>
thispositionwillgetfilled!
<pulls a dead rabbit out of a hat>
Ta-da!
rusty!.... please tell me you are joking....
Maybe it´s a naive question, as a non-US citizen: but why isn´t anyone (the AIA, for instance) taking any real measures against such firms? Because it´s not just bad for the employees, but also harming the business in total, as these firms can compete on an uneven playing field, financially speaking. If you have 3 fully paid employees on a project, your fee needs to be quite a bit higher than when you have 3 unpaid slaves around...
Unfortunately he isn't.
Someone will take this and finance the internship through some sort of illicit or unfair way (loans, student loans, parents, financial aid, black market). After working for a few months at this craphole probably doing a whole lot of nothing, a more respectable paying firm will instantly see value in this freshly trained and experienced person. That person will get a decent job.
In the mean time, the person who was unwilling to work for free is months or even possibly years into trying to land a entry-level career position. Unable to find that "step into a career" job that actually pays, that disenfranchised person will probably continue to work a menial job, end up chronically unemployed or homeless.
They'll probably start engaging in risky behavior due to a lack of confidence and will more than likely end up with a ton of children on welfare, become morbidly obese, fall gravely ill with anything from diabetes or HIV, develop a healthy addiction to booze, pills, cocaine, crack or meth or end up homeless.
We will then read the story of said sad case 3 weeks post-mortem on CNN and 60% of the people will respond with, "WHUTS A LOOSER.,. THYE DESRVTED IT.! Y CULDNT THEY JUST GO OUT & GIT A JERB LKE SOO MENY HARD WURKEING AMERICANS. GOOD BLESS ERVY1 XCEPT THIS JOKER!"
I love ppl who are so full of them selves that they think working for them is such an experience that it = a $30,000 salary. And James R, I know where you are tying to go with this, but it is bullshit to work for free in america. Not all of us come from rich families that can support us while we go off and work for some idealist and get paid in surfing. I had a kid by the time is was 24, which is about the time i had the experience this guy is looking for with revit and i just got my M.Arch a year eairlier. How would i pay for my family to survie on a unpaid internship. Its bad enough that the paid internships pay like shit. I woldnt be as upset if he was looking for a summer intern that was a year or two into an undergraduate program, but to be looking for someone with a degree, and a masters none the less , and experience, then they want to pay them nothing! This guy needs to pull his head out of his ass and realize there is a recession going on and ppl are hurting.
smda, where did you find this job post? Because before I encourage people to flood their office with polite but firm reminders that what they are offering is illegal, and possibly contacting the employment office of their state, I want to be sure you're not making it up or misunderstanding it.
"I want to be sure you're not making it up or misunderstanding it."
It is on their website.
Donna, this is on the Job postings of Archinect. I was browsing them yesterday and saw it... thought about posting it up here because its disgusting.
http://www.livinghomes.net/viewJob.html?id=24
http://www.livinghomes.net/viewJob.html?id=8
http://www.livinghomes.net/viewJob.html?id=22
Unpaid internships galore in this "high-growth, start-up environment."
Since the staff here seems to oppose unpaid internships, how can they justify accepting these ads?
Unpaid internships should be mandatory in architecture just to weed out all the whiny people who keep complaining that the profession doesn't pay enough money.
Of course, that would probably be the death of the archinect forum...or at least half of its posts, yo!
So I guess you never had to "whine" because you couldn't pay your rent one month CashMoney? Give me a break, I hope you are just trying to be cute, because anyone who believes you should go to school for 6+ years with massive school loans only to come out and work for free is either stupid or out of touch with reality.
...or who needs to cut competition.
disgusting, as usual.
a friend recently encountered a student from one of the powerhouse Ivy grad programs who basically threw herself at a firm for a summer internship, offering to work for nothing before the issue even came up. then the intern wanted idp credit, and my friend, who was her supervisor, refused to grant it, pissing everyone off in the process. i think they just expected her to 'reward' the unpaid intern...
i'm glad she did, but it sucks that it has to come down to that...
What was her reason for not granting the credit? Was it that she truly felt the internt did not earn the time, or did she not want to trade pay for idp credits?
These internships are illegal, and a poor reflection on the company that is offering them.
http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/11/unpaid-internsh.html
it's actually against ncarb rules, but i think she mostly thought it was unethical on all sides.
I agree, good for her for standing up like that
speaking for myself, not her, there are so many things wrong with it--
--first off that, as noah says, it's illegal. you are rewarding someone for work they're doing illegally. they are not only being exploited, but working outside all labor laws. no protection from harassment, unsafe conditions, etc. who wants to put their name on that, as a supervisor or mentor??
-if you grant the hours, you're contributing to a culture of exploitation. you work for me for free, i lie for you and give you idp credit. if this takes off, why should anyone pay ANY workers who are still in their internship period (about ten years now, on average...)?
-idp is supposed to be professional training, not educational. you are supposed to be functioning as an architect-in-training and treated as such. part of this is BEING PAID FOR YOUR WORK.
-you are further privileging the privileged. if the ivy girl can afford to work for idp credit, what happens to the students who can't?
just a few points...
@ Hence: "anyone who believes you should go to school for 6+ years with massive school loans only come out to and work for free is either stupid or out of touch with reality"
Let me start by saying that I do NOT condone unpaid internships nor do I, or my firm, ever employ unpaid interns. Unpaid internships are, in my eyes, an abomination.
Nevertheless, I find in the sentence quoted above a sense of entitlement and naivety that is, in and of itself, equally disturbing.
The fact that one goes "to school for 6+ years with massive school loans" does not entitle someone to a) a job; b) a paying job, or c) a well paying job. The availability of work - at any pay level - is determined fundamentally by the state of the economy and the ability of that economy to generate sufficient economic activity, and stabilitly, to warrant the massive investment required to build, or renovate, structures.
When one takes a long-term view at the relationship between graduation rates and the inability of the profession to sustain high levels of architectural employment for long periods of time, there seems to be a severe disconnect. When that happens, I suppose it is inevitable that during downturns some firms will attempt to use unpaid interns and some recent graduates - for their own reasons - will accept such positions.
This doesn't make it right - but, it is possible to understand the motivations on both sides. The only way it will stop is if all individual graduates refuse to accept such positions. Despite our repugnance when examples are brought to light, I don't see that refusal happening across the board.
It just means that they blew the entire fee on better paid staff who did less and and they need some poor unsuspecting lower-level employee to ne given a "rewarding experience."
file, I did not mean to portray a sense of entitlement, but I do think you deserver to get paid for your work. And I think that if you are willing to work for free than, yes you have your reasons, desperation, or you have enough money in the bank to support your self. I suppose my inital reaction boilied my blood too much and I came across with more venom then I ment to. Not every kid should get a trophy for coming in last place, and not every intern should make the maxium pay. But sometimes you do feel used as an intern...
@ Hence: "I do think you deserve to get paid for your work" -- on that there is no disagreement.
I suppose it is inevitable that during downturns some firms will attempt to use unpaid interns
So it's also inevitable that during this economic downturn I should attempt to steal my groceries or rob a bank?
Not paying people who do work for you is ILLEGAL except under strictly defined circumstances published by the Department of Justice. I guarantee you Living Homes ad doesn't meet those circumstances. Archinect (and all job boards) shouldn't be posting unpaid internship ads and Archinect has removed those ads in the past. Students should not be accepting unpaid internships. But finally it comes down to the employers: employers who break the law should be stopped, fined, whatever it takes. If no unpaid positions exists, then no naive students will ever be faced with the quandary of whether to accept one.
@ Donna: "So it's also inevitable that during this economic downturn I should attempt to steal my groceries or rob a bank?" -- no, certainly not you. But it does seem inevitable that economic need will drive some people to steal groceries or rob banks. It's sad, and it's wrong, but it does happen.
@ Donna: "If no unpaid positions exists, then no naive students will ever be faced with the quandary of whether to accept one." - That would work too !
If the economy turns down far enough then, yes, it is inevitable that you will do whatever you need to do to survive. When you've got an empty stomach, stealing groceries isn't such a bad idea.
Robbing a bank is probably a better idea but it is also much harder to pull off successfully, yo!
Any one else feel the urge to respond to the job post with a bunch of resumes for U.R a dick jr and other juvinal false names?
I do urge people to respond and copy the department of labor on the correspondence.
every time i see one of these ads, i send a copy over to the department of labor and the AIA.
Apparently the AIA has a rule....
If the architect in question is an AIA member, and the AIA finds out that theyre not paying interns, that architect will never become an AIA fellow, (FAIA). I dont know if it's a new rule. The AIA usually tells me they will send out a letter and warning to that architect.
To add injury to insult, if this firm (as the name and description suggests) bases its practice on private house commissions, doesn't that make it that much worse? I assume that clients who can afford to have their own house fully custom-designed are typically in the upper-bracket of income. This would lead me to believe that the firms taking these commissions would absolutely be able to afford to pay their interns.
BenC, I think what you said is just excatly what makes me so mad about some coorporatipons in this country. The guys at the top get all the cash and the guys below, in this case, get nothing. I don't think everyone should be paid the same and the guys who run the company are entitled to make more, but how much more do you really need to make?
Is this even a real architecture firm? From the looks of it, it appears they are more of a construction service. In this case, the 'internship' may not be what we would really consider an 'internship' as architects:
http://www.livinghomes.net/about.html
http://www.livinghomes.net/viewPerson.html?id=1 - no mention of being an architect (actually, more of a categorical denial).
According to their website, this seems to be some kind of tract-home company that uses famous architects for their designs (the firm really, really highly touts Ray Kappe and KieranTimberlake).
Either way, they should pay their people, though.
Ha, just read this so maybe robbing a bank isn't so difficult after all, yo!
@intotheloop
God... everybody should check the links you posted.
I did not know this greedy fxxkers posted more unpaid intern positions.
They should be reported and stopped for other naive people and businesses sake. Seriously.
I hate saying this but Architects need somekind of union to go out and educate people on this stuff and stand up for workers rights. I know we have the AIA, but what do they do really? Every employer I have had has expected me to work over time and not be paid for it. I even got fired from a job because I refused to work overtime durring christmas because I wanted to spend time with my mother who had cancer and died the following august. (oh and that same asshole hired his students as unpaid summer interns) Im just sick of the business end of this field. I love architecture and the work, but I just feel like sometimes we get treated like dirt.
"Architects need somekind of union" and "every employer I have had has expected me to work over time and not be paid for it."
Those are 'blue collar' sentiments that never seem to gain much traction in what is otherwise a 'professional' environment.
Too many in the profession do get treated like dirt, but those are the situations that get the most air time. Perhaps it's just the part of the country where I work, but my experience suggests that the vast majority of firms strive to treat their employees fairly and with considerable dignity. The challenge seems to be finding the good firms to approach and identifying the bad firms to avoid.
I don't think it is a blue collar ideal to be compensated for your time. It dosn't need to be pay, but some level of apprication is nice, and i know there are places out there that get that. But there are a lot of places that take advantage of the fact that the can expect young interns to work 50 -60 hrs or more a week and only pay them for 40 and just say "well this is a professional enviromet and thats how it is" Thats why I think we need a way to group together, not to go on stike like the airlines or something, but just to establish a basic level of expectations and have that known in the industry and known to students so they don't get taken advantage of.
I think it would be better if we spent more energy examining WHY this occurs, rather than bemoaning the fact that it does. Debating the particulars of its incidence is not debating its incidence.
It occurs because firms get away with it, where is the enforcement
I was once at an interview which I believed to ba normal mid-size firm in NYC and at the end of it they propositioned me for an "unpaid internship" which they described as a "fellowship" - it was bullshit.
Funny thing is that they asked me if I had any other offers on the table and I said yes - it was at a much larger corporate firm in DC which was paid. They tried to convince me to stay away from there because of how "corporate" it was and that it's a place where architects "sell-out."
Guess which offer I took! :)
"I don't think it is a blue collar ideal to be compensated for your time."
I certainly understand that point of view. However, to the extent you're addressing the 'unpaid overtime' issue, when one has earned a "professional' degree, wage and labor laws in virtually every state definitely allow firms to characterize, and pay, such individuals as salaried employees. Typically, that means you work as needed to accomplish the requirements of your positions.
Many firms do not classify all graduate architects as salaried employees (my firm, for example) -- frequently, only those who have accumulated a certain amount of experience get bumped into the salaried realm, typically with a raise.
Our firm pays all entry level employees on an hourly basis (with paid overtime at 1.5 times their regular hourly rate) -- our logic being that inexperienced staff rarely know enough about the process and the work required to have any meaningful influence over how many hours are needed - or appropriate - for the task at hand.
Stone that is an good method for interns, I wish I had a chance to work with more employeers that shared your vision. I have seen too many times where interns are lured in with the offer of a salary and benfits and then are left scratching their heads when they are stuck at the office till 12:30 at nite finishing a dead line and not getting "paid" for it. I would think that one fix to this situation would be better preperation on the part of interns looking for their first jobs. I don't know if that should fall on the Universities or on the interns themselves.
WTF
"fellowships" are typically paid positions at or through non-profit research institutions - usually funded by grant money.
although - we are trained to talk out of our asses in school - so I guess it isn't surprising.
"I don't know if [preparing upcoming graduates for the job search] should fall on the Universities or on the interns themselves."
My experience is that the placement offices in most universities don't have a clue -- or even care -- about helping graduate architects find appropriate employment. I always found this strange, since most universities seem to go out of their way to really help students in other departments. My guess is that they just don't have any real understanding of our professional environment.
I also observe that most soon-to-be-graduates in architecture don't really seek out that sort of help from their university. Not sure if we're dealing with the chicken or the egg here!
In the best of all worlds, the topic of preparing upcoming graduates for the job search probably would work best if it were a significant component of the Pro-Practice course offered by most schools. Of course, that would force the schools to admit - out loud - that the job market for upcoming graduates sucks -- and we know that's not going to happen.
you know - I've met a lot of people who've only worked for smaller boutique firms who seem very uninformed about federal labor laws. so I wonder how many people choose to do something illegal because there's very little risk, and how many people are just ignorant.
I heard that unpaid internships were the norm before IDP. So maybe that is where it comes from. Anyone?
So I responded to the job posting basically telling this firm that i think they are garbage for using unpaid interns. and here is the responce i got back Thank you for contacting us.
We receive a large number of submissions for our positions � and we�re a small company � so we can�t always follow-up with everyone individually. We apologize.
Please know, however, that we do review every resume and if we think there�s a fit, you will hear from us to discuss our position further.
Again, we appreciate your support and consideration.
LivingHomes
Some states have their own laws on the subject.[20] Laws in the state of California, for example, require an employer to pay its interns working in California unless the intern receives college credit for the labor.[20]
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=1
To hell with the AIA and Washington. That NYT article pretty much came out and said unpaid internships are 99% illegal and rarely punished. We need to find some underemployed lawyer who wants to sue these cheap p$#$@. The idea comes to me based on a lawyer I read about who spends all his time suing companies that spam him. It's like his own little business with his law degree. I wonder if a lawyer could run a similar business chasing after companies that don't pay interns making his money by settling out of court or winning damages? What is the actual fine/penalty for breaking the labor law?
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