There is a law that requires that if an employer receives a resume then they must keep it on file for 1 year minimum, and that if they do consider candidates for a position then that candidate must be considered if he's qualified.
This is an anti-discrimination measure - it's supposed to keep employers from discriminating against protected classes by simply throwing away their applications and then saying "we didn't have any open positions at that time", only to hire someone else days or months later.

I am not aware of a law specifically requiring any response to the candidate - however I know that some insurers recommend that if any applicants receive any response then all applicants should receive a response (our insurer provided us with recommended responses for various situations - i.e. "Thank you for your interest... we will keep your materials on file and contact you in the event that a position matching your qualifications arises...") So, yes, maybe he's being lazy in the sense that he doesn't want to have to follow up with a file drawer full of resumes. But having been in that position I can sympathize a bit.

I can see why you feel put off by this - but if he really didn't want to give you the time of day I'm not sure he would have suggested continuing to check back. Usually if they just don't want to be bothered firms will ask you just to give them your contact info, and not to continue to call ("we'll call you if...").

I have too many to share. I could write a book.

I just had someone reject my design and tell me I should redesign the project to include a "pointed roof" and then helpfully inform me that a "pointed" roof is an "iconic" image of shelter. Jeez, somehow my Masters degree and 25 years of being a practicing architect didn't make me aware of that fact! Thanks, man!

Bloopox, I've never heard that law, interesting. Is that only in the case of advertised positions, or for any resume that randomly gets sent? Because I've definitely dropped resumes into the trash immediately upon opening them if the firm name/name of the person to whom the cover letter was addressed was misspelled.

Yes, it's only for advertised positions. However, employment law attorneys recommend that you keep all application materials (solicited or not), and keep them for 2 years minimum. This is so that if there is a claim of discrimination you can prove what was actually submitted (whereas if you trash what the applicant sent, they can potentially pad their resume retroactively in support of their claim.)

I got one really nasty and rude one once that was priceless!

It was some "award-winning" midsize Baltimore firm. I spoke with some of the firm's architects while they were at a career fair at my school (while in grad school). They seemed nice as I walked them through my work. Then the day after I sent them a 'thank you' email in appreciation for their time.

I got a response back a day or two later that I can never forget - the email was clearly a forward from an admin person there. It was like this:

RE: RE: RE: No Interview, No Thank You

Sherry, can you please forward this guy the latter declining him of any future interviews or employment. Thanks


Then it went on to give a generic scripted rejection letter. they did this to a lot of people and I forwarded to the letter to our dean to which he was so pissed that he told that firm never to come to any of their career fairs again. It was kind of a big deal as my school sent a lot of their alumni up there.

When I was a couple years out of school I was interviewing at a small firm, talking with the owner while he looked through my portfolio, when a guy came into the room, introduced himself as the Computer Administrator, and said he was all set up in the other room for my "CAD test". I hadn't been told that there was going to be a CAD test, and knew the firm was using software that I hadn't used before and hadn't listed on my resume. I politely stated that I'd be happy to attempt the CAD test, but had no experience with that software. At that point the CAD admin guy said "never mind", made an angry comment about "people always wasting my time", and slammed the door on his way out. I wasn't sure whether he felt I was wasting his time, or that the owner had wasted his time, or both, but it sure made for an unpleasant impression and awkward situation.
The owner seemed embarrassed and was very apologetic, and said he knew I didn't have experience with that software and didn't consider that to be a big issue.
The rest of the interview went well and I did get an offer, but I just couldn't see myself working there after that experience.

@med.,

that's pretty terrible. More awkward than anything, i don't think "Sherry" understands the former/latter relationship... I feel like even a middle-schooler would understand that you don't forward the inner-workings-conversation onto the subject. It was obviously passed around from the administrator (like you said), to a selection of partners/associates and then back to the administrator who should have started a new email chain to you - that's just terrible common-sense.

Proud of the way your school reacted though - probably had to be uplifting for them to hang around in your corner like that.

Wow...These are all pretty good. Aside from the previously mentioned resume rejection, I had a woman in California hang up on me during a cold-call. I politely described that I was a recent graduate who is interested in visiting their firm, to which she interjected "WE HAVE NO JOBS!" and hung up. Yikes.

"Me - "Hello my name is Such-and-Such and Jane Doe recommended that I contact you to see if you had any entry-level positions available?"

Him - "Nope. We are hard pressed at the moment. Keep checking back."

Me - "Well I'd love to send you my resume and work samples in the event that something opens up?"

Him - "Don't do that. By law we have to respond if you send a resume...just try calling back sometime."

Should I take offense to that?"

To me that wasn't offensive at all.If you took offense to that maybe you should quit architecture.

Now trying to have the same conversation with a secretary who won't let you talk to the decision maker, huffs and puffs at every word you say and almost hangs up on you with an uber pissed off manner? Now that's offensive!

Paradoxx and drsmith -

I know it seems like anyone should be able to pick up the phone, cold call a firm, and get the top brass to take time to hear your requests for a job. However, that's not standard business etiquette, nor is it something feasible for most firms, especially smaller ones. For example, if we get 100 calls a month (we don't, but some do) and each one takes 4 minutes to go through, that's 10 hours of time spent doing nothing but telling people we don't have a position to offer.

I try to respond to each email we get; however, even I'm reaching the point where if it smells like a blanket email (no listed recipients, addressed 'to whom it may concern', etc.) or even something where people haven't actually taken time to even do basic research on our firm, I'm just hitting delete and moving on.

We haven't advertised for a professional position in 4 years, so we don't have too many issues, but keeping things for 2 years, unsolicited? Not a chance.

When you cold call an office wanting to talk to a top-level person, it would be my expectation that they would be short and rude to you. I mean afterall, you are putting them on the spot.

I mean if you are a younger person out of school who does this, there is little you can prove by having a phone conversation. I mean I'm not against the younger staff for trying these kinds of things but I also know that some architects who run small shops like these tend to be sorta douche nuggets.

I by no means expect talk to the "top brass" of a firm on a cold call, I normally just politely ask the name/title of the person within human resources that I can direct my resume towards...however if being referred to them by someone I expect the person to be cordial at least.

I will also say that in an environment where times are tough can you really hold it against recent graduates who are aggressivly persuing jobs?

The only one I can think of was this small crafty firm I applied to, they had these stock cards that they sent out after receipt of a resume/portfolio. It had three different replies on it with checkboxes next to them:

(paraphrased)
1. We will be in contact to set up an interview.
2. We are not hiring currently but will keep your resume on file and review it as positions open.
3. We are not hiring currently and will only keep your resume on file for legal reasons.

Yeah, the third one was checked. Uh, did that option really need to be on there? Thanks for being honest... I guess?

These days there are so many applicants, you are lucky to get any type of response via email or written form. When I was looking 2 years ago, I estimate my rejection response rate was less than 10% (out of 50-60 applications). In the days before email and web-based applications, I recieved about 75% hard copy rejection letters.

As stated above, firms don't have the time or resources to respond personally to all applicants. Heck, many smaller firms eliminated their secretary and HR support staff all together.

little off topic, but a good story...

in school, one term i had this guy as instructor with a stern demeanor and a deep, imposing voice...actually a very nice guy but until you got to know him, he came off as excessively critical and humorless

he would call us into his office, one by one to review our design concepts

the semester had just begun, we were given our assignment, i had sketched some ideas out on trace, and i was called into his office

part of what i sketched involved a footbridge with a sort of inverted triangularish section

he said, " what is this? is this a triangular bridge? The only person I've seen pull of the triangular form well is Carlo Scarpa and you are no fucking Carlo Scarpa."

End of conversation. I was a little shocked, mostly amused, and a little 'dude wtf'

I cant attest to any rude behavior 'verbally' as it seems every ad posted states not to be called. I definitely do not agree with unpaid interships and abhor whats become of the process of getting a job in this profession.

My situation is somewhat unique in the fact that I worked while going to school part time (undergrad) in nyc. When I got to my 3rd year, the office piled so much design work on my desk that I succumbed to the intoxicating nature of money, experience, and design authorship. I subsequently put school off to be successful at the office. Cut to 5 years later (08') I was the first to get pink slipped and now here I am at 40 trying to finish an undergrad degree in california! I've given up on trying to get work as it seems the cut off line for hiring starts at the bachelors degree. My multiple years experience with revit, autocad, 3dstudio, PM knowledge, count for NOTHING. Its my own fault for not being smarter with my career path.

Nowadays one has to have a resume to wash dishes in a restaurant. I blame technology for making getting a job so cold and impersonal. No one wants to actually meet face to face anymore. I liken it to posting anonymous negative comments without fear of retribution. I've seen many offices in this town post 3 times a year with the same ad. I've seen offices demand sample work sent in hard copy format. If there's anything I have a surplus of, its gotta be having the dough to buy ink cartridges for my printer at 20 buck per color - (give me break) only later to not hear from anybody at said office. Some offices hiring tactics would make wall street look like economic angels.

I'm going back to Oil Painting and Sculptures. It seems building are getting built so wherever theres a space there's room for art.

I once had a firm revoke their offer for employment when I would not accept it on the phone. I asked for a few days to consider their offer. They said "Well, there must be somebody out there you'd rather work for so why don't you just go work for them."

oh man, m3A+I. your post was like a punch in the gut.

you should look into getting licensed based on your experience. some states allow this, including NYS, though i'm not quite clear on the specifics.

I was interviewed by a Canadian office. In the course of the interview (which began with an agressive 20 minutes of grilling on the subject of cavity walls) it emerged I was in Ontario due to my spouse being an already employed academic here, I was trained in the UK.
One of the interviewers a pregnant young woman sniffed, "Hm. Two jobs!". Having already stolen one job from Canada we were now trying to steal another, the office hmed and hawed for a few days and then said they would rather employ someone with Canadian experience...Lovely place Canada, -and mostly, they don't reply to foreign resumes.

I once sent an email to a firm after researching who to send it to/finding information about the firm/writing a specific cover letter tailored for the firm, etc. only to be rejected within 3 minutes. The rejection letter wasn't automated either. Someone opened the e-mail and then responded with a quick note about the firm not hiring. Not even the typical, "we'll keep your info on file" type of response. It might as well have just been a one line response: "NO"


I was also once interviewed at a school's career day, and subsequently given a formal interview and tour of the office and told that the firm wanted to hire me, only to never hear back from them. After a few weeks I tried to follow-up and was given the run-around with no rejection or offer. I was basically asked to sit tight and wait. Luckily at the time, I had another offer and I took that one instead.


On a lighter note, the best rejection letter I ever received was a mailed note from a mid-sized firm with your typical response, but it also included some praise about specific projects in my portfolio, which I thought was a nice touch.


I get that some firms don't have the resources available like HR offices and whatnot, but some of these firms have seemingly no clue about the most basic elements of professional etiquette.

I had a firm (an analysts/economics/policy firm) email me back 7 months after I had applied to the firm to tell me the position had been taken.

The position was for an entry-level research analyst... that only paid $55,000 a year. (This is an unbelievably low starting salary doing this kind of work. The shittiest firm on Wall Street starts their analysts out in the mid 70s).

We're talking like no experience, B.A./B.S..

But, here was the hilarious part... the e-mail I had received from the HR representative was a general chit-chat e-mail asking questions about who I was, what I have been doing.

Well, I replied back to the e-mail thanking them for the opportunity to know a little bit about the firm and that I would be appreciative to be considered for any future positions open at the firm.

"Oh, you were applying for a job? I hadn't realized that's why you were in my address book. I seem to have lost your resume!"

I replied back with it "happens all the time, here's another copy, [insert copious groveling]."

Never ever heard back. They had no idea who I was or why I was even in their system.

The person that they did hire has a resume of stellar projects long than Ron Jeremy's dick, looks to be in his late 30s, double Masters degrees and is all around pretty awesome. But, god damned, that's "entry-level?"

I always like the ones that tell you after the interview that they will contact you and let you know one way or the other, and then never do so. It has happened a couple times, and I get that you don't want to waste your time, but you said it at the interview, so it makes you look bad.

I also got one of the nicest rejection letters a couple years back. It was basically along the lines of newguy's but said that "While we would like to hire you, you would most likely hate the type of work that we do" (mostly corporate work...typical American architecture). It was nice, but at the same time I was looking to leave a firm in which a supervisor refused to let me learn anything new and stuck me on CDs all the time (my IDP for CDs is done...and I'm not out of school yet).

While I haven't had any truly rude and unprofessional rejections, I have had a pretty rude and unprofessional layoff. They rounded us up, and with no explanation told us to leave because we were laid off.

The other side of it is that if you are too gracious in telling people that your office does not have a job for them, a good number of the job seekers won't just leave it at that. 1/2 that time when I have written back (to someone blindly sending out a resume) something along the lines of "looks like you have talent and good experience, unfortunately we are not hiring right now, but appreciate your sending a resume"; it starts a seemingly never ending barrage of follow-up calls and emails. After a couple of more polite responses, I inevitably end up having to state that I do not wish to hear from them again, period. They have now received their rude rejection. This is why now, I just don't respond at all.

I'm sure looking for a job with little success sucks, but people do need to figure out when they have been given a polite kiss-off. Instead of hanging onto some slim hope with that particular firm, just be satisfied that they had the decency to write you back.

^ amen to that!

@joshuamings

Re. that layoff, you could actually sue the company for wrongful termination.  Company is required by law to give you reasons for termination and to offer you a severance if the termination is not performance based.  My former firm was sued even for terminating an employee the right way.  You should know your rights, don't take the crap from unprofessional firms. 

It was lack of work. We all knew, we all saw it in the office. I was actually planning on leaving that firm when I did my study abroad semester, so to me it was more of a relief than a hinderance (except for the budget hit of course).

I recently found out that one particular person in my last office may have been giving out bad references when other offices called, purposefully derailing my effort to obtain a job.

After calling multiple times to a firm in hopes of applying for an internship; I went in to hand in the resume package. I thought I would be able to leave it at the front desk in the lobby; but I was told that was not an option once I had arrived. I waited in the freight room of the building for 30 minutes when the elevator guy said the firm said it was okay for me to come up. After standing at the front door of the office for 4 minutes, a guy approached me very kindly asking me what I needed. I told him I just came to drop of my resume, I spoke with the principal a few months ago and he agreed it would be a good idea for me to drop by the office when I arrived to the city. A lady jumped up from her chair on the other side of the floor sized office on the third floor, and shouted, "what are you doing here?!" In surprise I looked around at all the other members of the open studio, before I could begin to utter the same speech out of my mouth. As the guy who greeted me is taking the resume, she walked towards us and said; "you don't have to do that, it's expensive for you guys and like....I don't know you're probably right out of school." I didn't bother telling her of my actual amount of experience and stayed silent for a second or two; though the time period seemed much longer. Thinking to myself; obviously its already printed (no more costs) and I didn't bring in a random mass package. Her logic was clearly lacking, and her ego offended. I continued to hand the package to the guy, shook his hand, and said thank you. Meanwhile the rest of the office congratulated me with smirks, as though they wanted to do the same thing to the lady. It hurt; and I was shocked by someone being so threatened by someone coming simply to hand in a resume; but glad the other members of the 40+ firm were satisfied. A week later I had a Junior Architecture position at another firm that could offer me a much better salary, and less mundane tasks. All things came together in the end.

I dont understand why this person would do that since I did a great job over there. Who knows? I hardly worked with that person also which makes me think that someone else may be behind it. oh well.

worthy cooper,
   Yikes man, sorry you had to go through that humiliating experience. What city did that happen in if you dont mind me asking?  Inevitably due to the worst unemployment rate that this profession has seen since the great depression.  5 out of 10 architecture professionals are out of a job.  Keeping this in mind, how does it make me feel when touring an office all I see is very very young early 20's people, and then only a handful of older guys in their early to mid forties? I think that its kind of amusing because I have a very professional no nonsense kind of vive and all the youngsters at the work stations would actually give me mixed looks. Some looked at me and with respect, but ultimately I also think that there is a general feeling that I could only describe with the following sentence. " Oh shit, the pros are back in town". 

I've been sniffing around small design firms lately, I'm working for a big "design" office and I am not really happy. So whenever I see someone doing interesting research/work I shoot them an email, just to see what happens. Well I was really surprised at people like atmos (london), context (porto) and ijp (london), they all took the time to tell me they had no space to employ other people at the moment but that they appreciated the interest.  I don't know whether it's because they have a lot of time on their hands (I doubt it) or it's because they are simply "nice". I like the attitude of a lot of these new guys coming out, it's very different from a lot of the design offices that sprung up in the nineties, who thought they were all the best thing since sliced bread. And I think that it reflects in their work too.

Here's what I got after 5 years of graduating from one of the top colleges and working on better projects than this looser will ever do in his lifetime. I bet he's done it to others as well... copied and pasted below:

I regret to say that I am not hiring any additional staff at this moment which is no reflection on your excellent work and credentials. It’s a sad reflection of the current state of the economy among architects. But I think you are making the best of this situation by taking the licensing exam. I congratulate you for it and hope you will pass.

Please allow me to make a very personal comment about your resume, particularly since I am the Secretary of the AIA New York Chapter:
Don’t ever call yourself an Architect or having done any work as an Architect, Project Architect, Architect Intern, Junior Architect, as you do in your resume before you passed the exam and have become a Registered Architect!! !!

As you should know, claiming these tiles and activities violates State Law and every ethical rule on the books. Don’t jeopardize your future by doing this. A complaint to any licensing board by anybody could bare you from ever taking the exam, not mentioning the legal consequences. Change your resume immediately.

I will look happily forward to the day you pass your licensing exam and the day you will be able and legally call yourself an ARCHITECT and have a promising future.

Best regards,

{name removed by moderator}

Luckily [he] didn't say you can'y call yourself Ms. Architect. You'd be screwed if that happened.

Ms. Architect,
You sound awfully jaded.  Why are you trying to get on with a firm that does 'loser' work?  What projects have you done that are better than this firm?  Are they completed projects?  Stuff you do in school never (I repeat never) trumps anything that is actually built.  (Its easy to design cool stuff in a vaccum).
The letter you received is quite personal and well written.  Once you get your license, you will appreciate where he is coming from. 

Ms. Architect: I agree with gibbost -- the letter you received was both polite and seemingly a sincere attempt to help you avoid difficulties with your state board of Architects. You may not like the letter because you don't happen to like the way your state treats graduate-but unlicensed-architects. But, until the laws in your state are changed, I don't think it fair to abuse this fellow simply because he was trying to be helpful.

It seems to me that if anyone was in the wrong here that would be you, due to the way you characterized yourself in your credentials statement -- ignorance of the regulations is not an excuse.

i disagree...he's a complete ass.  'intern architect' and 'architect intern' are totally acceptable and (i think) recommended by the AIA (!) 'junior architect' means the same thing, and  'project architect' is used by many firms as a job title, often for unlicensed employees, and everyone in NY knows this. 

this guy sounds like the type who has his little bit of power and will make the most of it.  i'm glad you named names, though...gave me the opportunity to check out his lovely website.

creativityexpert,

That happened to me in NYC; the story becomes that much more real once that's stated right? I understand the lady defending her position; but I just thought she could at least make an attempt to be decent. There's only so much she can gain from being disgusting to me, when she could have just as easily received the package and thrown it in the garbage. I can't imagine someone doing what they did to you with bad references; that's just extremely sad and frightening.

"Complete ass" and "looser" (sic)?  Nah, not from what he said.  He was trying to be helpful. 

Now, what if he had said something like, " I'm informing you that the act of calling yourself "Ms. Architect" without holding a valid license presents yourself improperly to the public.  You are in direct violation of the rules regarding practice in your state and you shall cease and desist."?  Now, THAT would be a little strong...

"Junior Architect"?  Would anyone even answer to that?

elinor:

As has been stated here repeatedly - by Donna and by many others - the AIA has nothing to do with the way individual states define the nomenclature appropriate to our profession. My own state Board allows "architectural intern" but not "intern architect" ... other states have their own approach to acceptable nomenclature.

There is a major distinction between the description Ms. Architect provided and the terms that you use -- and that distinction is the difference between "Architect" and "architect". 

Many participants here complain persistantly about how indiscriminantly others adopt the words that historically describe what we do. However, I find it odd that so many of us care not how we dilute the meaning of our language when we find it personally inconvenient to protect the brand.

Oh - and by the way - the role of "Secretary of the AIA New York Chapter" is about as powerless a position as I've ever come across.

quiz--my mistake regarding the AIA position.

i do think though that this whole fighting-over-nomenclature issue is an embarrassment.  having to call yourself an 'intern' until you are 35 (or 40, or forever) is a disservice to the work people do in this field... more than allowing them to use some variant on the term 'architect' would be a dilution.  

why doesn't the use of 'architect' / 'registered architect' make sense...like 'engineer' / 'professional engineer' ?

this is my opinion, of course.  it goes without saying that i think people should follow the law.

the day i stop seeing articles/announcements like these is the day i'll start to take this issue seriously:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703843804575534011815466110.html

http://78.136.16.169/members/Hani%20Rashid.html

until then, with all due respect,  i'll continue to think that picking on an unemployed young graduate when the big guys get to call themselves whatever they want makes one an ass....

besides which...do you guys remember that partner at SOM who was fired when it was discovered he had lied about being licensed?  well, he was later made a fellow by the AIA.  so much for consequences...

I like the cut of elinor's jib. 

I honestly feel sorry for anyone that actually gives a shit about whether someone calls themselves an architect or not. 

I wouldn't call that guy an "ass" though, he is just a square.

@creativity expert....I've had that happen too. The supervisor that would not let me do anything other than CDs bad mouthed me to a lot of people. I of course took solace in the fact that he was fired not long after I was laid off, but it seems like he did his damage.

Same thing as you, did great work there, showed great pride in my work. Even handled some small projects with very little oversight as a student intern (design/CD parts not CA).

I guess it doesn't help that I'm not exactly the best person for a corporate office since I don't play into office politics.

.

not necessarily a rejection but got a full display of office inner workings from one firm i applied to:  sent in my work to a network contact, got an email response from the hr department about setting up a time for an initial phone interview [they had posted the position so they were sifting through a hundred different applications i'm sure]. i responded to their email about being available on Monday at 3pm for a phone interview...and never heard from them again...ever. i sent them a confirmation email the day before the phonecall was supposed to happen. no response. waited by the phone when they mentioned they would call. no phone call. called the office and left a message on my contact's voicemail. no response. sent them an email afterward. no response. IF they contact me again they will get 1 response from me. "due to your complete lack of professional decorum in our last contact -- your

lack of response after contacting me for an interview -- i have no interest in conducting any further business with your firm. thank you for your time.

i have no clue what is happening with the postings -- i had tried to edit the text and the post went wonky.....anyone else having issues??timothysalder@????seems like you tried to post something and it didn't work?? or edited by moderator??

Elinor... That so needed to be said! 

Might I add – losers like him are classified as asses for the simple reason that they hide behind a subterfuge of mock power, in their stupid attempts to discourage and intimidate others.
His letter was crass, pathetic and ill-timed (as opposed to helpful…?...) - because he is targeting people who are merely looking for jobs, using prevailing industry standards to define their skills and level of expertise (and not stamping CD’s or making any claims to that effect).
Really… lighten up guys! The “title” issue has been beaten to death, over and over again and yet it lingers! With all due respect, most of us are in this profession because of a passion for the built environment… and NOT a hankering after “titles” - or so I thaught.

and yet, you choose a screen name of "Ms. Architect"

....? its "ironic" 

and a pity it has to be explained....