i've been really struggling lately to maintain my motivation to work at my firm. i recently graduated and am working corporate in nyc, doing cool stuff and learning alot.
despite my special opportunity here, (that i know so many people would even relocate for), i can't help but constantly question my decision to be working 12-16 hours every day of the week, and every other weekend. it is stressful and so exhausting, after awhile. i'm truly inspired by architecture, but in order to be successful and excel in this field it truly requires the sacrifice of so much time - to the point where other areas of my life that were once healthy are now starved.
i guess im at a crossroads or something, and recognize that i can continue with my career, working tirelessly and being 'successful' in the way we see it, or moving onto something i'm less suited for and leading a balanced lifestyle. it's just frustrating because i do believe i'm suited for architecture in every respect, except for these absurd demands it makes on my time.
yes, i know this is a personal dilemma and should be answered personally. but i am curious to know, for you people who saw this 'issue', and continued on with your career... why did you choose that? is it really because of some histrionic 'love' for architecture?
rockaway .. not every firm requires the time commitment you outline above. what you're experiencing is perhaps indicative of the firm you chose and the city in which you live. however, it's not like that everywhere and there's no requirement that you live that way for the rest of your career.
Is the firm expecting you to work those kind of hours? Are you just not getting your work done in an efficient manner? Is the firm taking advantage of your current enthusiasm? Are you getting overtime cramming to make a deadline?
You are on a fast track to burnoutville, my friend.
There used to be a time when architects got paid for working overtime. Back then you had to get approval to work overtime. There just wasn't enough money for inefficiency. (mind you proposals and competitions were treated differently than billable hours).
These days, taking 12 hours to accomplish something that should really only take you 3 is often confused for hard work. I had a number of coworkers who would stay late in order to look good to the upper management. Totally works. Be the first one to leave every day? It won't matter if your work is impeccable. You will be hated, and in risk of losing your job.
Trick is (and there is a solution to this) is to work for a company that will value your contribution and will trust your ability to manage your time. This is more likely to happen at a smaller firm.
Otherwise, work for yourself once the first opportunity knocks.
Completely agree...I was written up once for not working overtime, even though I 1) Had all my work done to their standards and 2) Saved them money because I was an hourly worker (and therefore federal laws state that you must pay overtime). Didn't make sense then, and sure didn't make sense when I was part of the first round of layoffs (In their defense, I'm definitely not the best person to work in a very corporate firm, as I'm a fan of the everyone is equal approach).
I hear that place is now a shell of what is was.
Basically, do your 3, get licensed and tell them where to stick their overtime and go out on your own. That is my plan if I'm unable to get into a doctoral program or find a job overseas.
There are teams in this firm that seem to work round the clock, with 4 or 5 people on the team. My team is a two person team, leaves at 5:00, and our last two projects came in with enviable profit margins...Profit is what the principals look at. Yes, we are perhaps hated, but those haters are coming to us to try to figure out how we are so efficient. Work hard, but have balance.
T~AGG. sure, that's great when you can show profit. Now imagine your 2 person 'team' as part of a much larger project. Impossible to gage profitability of individual pieces. You leave at 5, everyone else is there till eleventy. Project barely breaks even... Guess who's ass will be dumped first?
A lot of people who complain about mindless overtime are in that exact situation. I find that really inefficient people rarely complain about this. To them it's an equalizer. I can play stairway to heaven at 1/4 the speed!
There's a larger conversation here dealing with a much larger systemic problem about the workforce and the workplace. It also explains why some countries have instituted shorter work weeks, longer vacation periods and have imposed tighter regulations regarding work weeks.
In France, the 35-hour work week was suppose to increase jobs; however, it seems to have failed at doing so.
Even as far back as the early 1990s before widespread automation and computerization, there's some particular voices stressing concern over this issue.
The issue is that technology is vaporizing jobs and workplace roles faster than we can create new ones. Perhaps that is what is unique about the 2000s' economic bubble is that real estate and construction is one of the only things that hasn't be able to be replaced by computers yet. If the Harvard and IT crowd gets their wish, automated pre-fabrication could make most construction jobs obsolete.
In terms of an architecture office-- like any professional office-- there's a number of tasks that are slowly disappearing along with various jobs.
Even the process of redlining is no longer as complex as it use to be. There's no master copies, reference copies, project journals, stacks of lose notes, couriers to make copies from one office to the next and secretaries to keep track of these papers.
Now, there's a PDF with a nauseating amount of colored squiggles and boxes that can be saved, updated and duplicated almost infinitely.
In a sense, a single 'architect' on a decent computer can do the job of at least 6 to 12 standard 'architects.' Even if that employee were to be equipped with the most expensive software, the best computer and even throw in a 3d printer-- that employee with all the bells and whistles still costs less than 3 standard employees.
What it comes down to is that single employee is now doing the work of 12 employees at no increase in pay.
That's what makes Revit even more baffling is it allows a single person to do the work of say 3 or 4 dozen people. Not that it isn't necessarily a bad or complex thing but the amount of liability and responsibility placed on a single person for literally doing the work of dozens of people is a bit troubling.
Obsolescence is a funny thing. We pride ourselves on the reduction of expenses and efforts along with increases in output and efficiency. Then we realize we no longer have jobs and blame the Chinese for taking all of them.
I'm interested in understanding how a single Revit user is doing the work of 3 or 4 dozen people? Hell, it has increased our staffing, decreased productivity, and decreased drawing quality!
If we go back to pre-computer offices, changing something such as door knob height or door width on a series of doors in a project can be a baffling experience.
Say the project is a 30 story-high rise building. Each floor has anywhere between 15 and 40 doors (we'll say an average of 25). That's 750 instances of doors having to be updated.
There's 3 or 4 people involved in communicating the changes. Once every single floor plan and elevation has been updated, the previous drawings have to be collected, cataloged and destroyed.
Wall assemblies, elevations and plans will have to be meticulously checked, redrawn and updated for each specific instance of door. Even if the plans refer to a spec sheet, things like door stoppers and wall assemblies will change drastically if a door shrinks or grows by an inch.
New plans for the entire building have to be duplicated for every single person in the staff.
Mail clerks and secretaries then have to notify every single party outside of the office that the change has taken place, recall previous drawings and send out new ones.
From there, parts suppliers and construction foremen have to be made aware of the changes taking place in their orders and cost estimation. They then have to submit new estimates who will be received by mail clerks and secretaries who then have to inform other people of the changes caused by the changes.
Et cetera.
Now, if I want to change a door spec for 750 doors... it literally takes 15 minutes to update all 750 instances, redraw all adjacent walls and e-mail every interested and relevant party about the change.
One no longer has to worry about secretaries, mail clerks, reproductions, archivists, managers and couriers.
because apparently all that staff who used to be on projects were ONLY doing production - not any kind of coordination or additional design thinking or problem-solving... nope. just picking up redlines. only management does any actual thinking anyway. computer does all the production now. I heard computers can now design too! what will they think of next!
I know when I use a word processor it writes novels for me - I just write down a couple ideas, push a couple buttons and hit print. sure it's in latin-ish gibberish, but as long as it has a kick-ass cover with a pretentious title I'm sure at least the students will buy a few thousand copies.
boxman- horrible example. That's not how architectural drawings are done.
Door knob height will only be mentioned once in the door schedule, and nowhere else. Even changing the width of the door should be very simple. Change it in the door schedule and update your door wblock (in autocad) and all drawings are updated.
Changing floor elevations will screw up a bunch of drawings, but I'm not sure I'd want an automated process to make those changes for me.
At the end of the day, you have to check all of your construction documentation for accuracy manually.
boxman- horrible example. That's not how architectural drawings are done.
Door knob height will only be mentioned once in the door schedule, and nowhere else. Even changing the width of the door should be very simple. Change it in the door schedule and update your door wblock (in autocad) and all drawings are updated.
Changing floor elevations will screw up a bunch of drawings, but I'm not sure I'd want an automated process to make those changes for me.
At the end of the day, you have to check all of your construction documentation for accuracy manually.
If we go back to pre-computer offices, changing something such as door knob height or door width on a series of doors in a project can be a baffling experience.
yes - pretty baffling if you've never worked on an actual project.
Anyways, thanks for completely derailing the topic.
"Why are you willing to work so hard"
Because architecture is a project based creative endeavor that often yields deeply satisfying results. Making the extra effort will lead to better results. Architecture is also cursed with being made of professionals who's ambitions will never be fulfilled in their careers.
Result? Mindless hard work on projects you couldn't give a flying fuck about. It makes sense if you think of the setup.
I completely understand your situation. 3 to 4 years ago I was in the same boat. basically dedicated my life to the profession because many people my age do that very thing regardless of the profession. I spent 3 years of 12+ work days and 7 days a week, work weeks, all the while being pressured to get my license. So even if i had any free time I had to use it to study. People thought I was making all kinds of money when i was barely pushing 40,000. I had a b/f that i didn't see, a gym membership that I didn't use and an apartment that was empty ALL the time. Also being a woman I didn't have any mentors other than my project manager who HAD to leave to have children.
Even though all of this was happening,,2 years ago when the lay-offs started ,I still wanted to keep my job. Well after 3 rounds of lay-offs I didn't make the cut. I was let go but it was a blessing because I don't think I would've made the change on my own.
I hate to say this on here but I have since turned down full-time jobs. I have only accepted contract work. It hurts my pockets but honestly my pockets were hurting when I was working fullt-time. But now I have a life, back in shape and have a positive outlook about my future. It's hard to turn away from my original dream but I had to do it.
My advice is to way your options? Don't think about what other people might say or the state of the economy or any of that. Think about what it is you want out of life. There were several guys in the office I worked at who LOVED that lifestyle. It defined them as a person and they took pride in being an architect. That was my problem,,, i know longer felt proud to be an architect. Actually I started to feel ashamed. if you still take pride in being an architect than stick with it.
rock - my first year out of school I worked those same hours - i completely burnt out and needed a year of recovery (odd jobs, travel, + couch surfing). I also spent that year seriously contemplating whether or not I really wanted to continue on in architecture, and even though I found a job at a firm with a more reasonable time expectations (as quiz said, these places exist), I still spent several years planning my exit because I thought I couldn't physically put in the time it really took to be "successful." Now that I've been doing this for a while and have realized that you really don't need to work insane hours to do well in this field, spending all those years thinking I was about to leave prevented me from actually learning as much as I could - so that now that I'm committed to staying I'm playing catch up and am a little behind where I should be.
so... you are normal - no one can sustain those kinds of hours and remain a sane person. it is possible to find success in this field and still have somewhat of a life outside of it. IMO - don't kill yourself until you start your own office.
This is just non-resulting navel gazing. Every response to this question can be summed up by the basic tenets of conflict and narrative.
Man vs. self-- problem with self, pursuit for self-betterment
"I became a ________ because it was always what I wanted to achieve."
Man vs. man-- prove success to antagonist regarding man-versus-self sub-narrative
"Despite pressures from family and friends, I continue to succeed in my career despite __________."
Man vs. society-- conflict with social norms and pressures de jure
"I became a _________ because I wanted to use my skills and knowledge to help __________."
Man vs. nature-- work to survive, gain shelter, avoid starvation; could be confounded with human environments of lower classes, e.g. fight conflict to avoid living in a SRO
"Even though I am not as paid as much as I want to be paid, I am happy because I live in _________ and can do ________."
Man vs. technology-- identifies and combats technological danger and failures; could resolve around man versus man, man versus self and man versus society
"I hate what ___________ has done to ________ and _______. I feel __________ can _____________ with my skills, education and knowledge."
Man vs. destiny-- avoiding, combating or delaying the inevitable, can relate to all other sub-narratives
"I have/will/might start my own business because _________ and _______."
You next move should be the who, whats and hows: Why do I work so much? How do I work? What do I work on? Where do I work? Who do I work for?
When I was a 3D environment designer in the Video game industry, we had what they called mandatory hours. This could be any where from 60 - 80 hours a week - then to top of it off, I decided to go architecture school to pursue my M.Arch. The video game studio reluctantly let me cut my hours back to part time(40 Hrs/week) while I spent the next 3 years earning my M.arch degree. In two years, time I paid it back to them, when I helped design their new office TI project and used my architecture skills on "Red Dead Redemption" and Midnight Club Los Angeles.
Over the last 30+ years of my 3D artist and now architecture careers, I have generally spent 50 to 60 hours/week. I have pulled two all nighters recently - because I need to work 2 architecture jobs just to stay afloat - Good thing I like doing what I am doing - or as the Dean of Architecture said at my school "It's only work if you would rather be doing something else"
"If I get home before daybreak, just might get some sleep tonight"
@ rethinkit
Do you get paid overtime? I don't mind working those hours if you are compensated for it. Architects usually don't pay by the hour, That was the problem that I and almost everyone one of my friends had.
My roommate is a massage therapist who generally makes 60 to 75 a hour but she can only work 4 to 5 hours a day because it's physical work. She's self employed so AFTER taxes she was only making about 30,000 a year.
One night we calculated how much I was making given the hours I was working and the fact that I got fixed salary. It came out to a measly 12.50 a hour.
Side note what programming language did you use while you were a Video game Designer?
lanah: Glad to hear your post-layoff experience has given you some positive perspective.
rockaway: listen to those of us saying there *are* firms where you don't have to pull those kinds of hours week after week. Sometimes is OK, but not consistently.
Also, as a self-employed architect, I've come to realize just how much emotional freedom I have that I don't have to be in some specific physical place - an office - the whole time I'm working, even if it is long hours. Being able to up and go walk the dog on a nice day, even knowing it will mean working an hour longer after the rest of the family has gone to bed, is incredibly valuable.
At the game company? no - that is until a class action lawsuit was filed, and I recieved a settlement in '09. The money came in handy for the 1 year I was unemployed/working for free in '09 -
In architecture? I did get paid OT from a large firm I worked at in SF -Now? I work for two small offices, and get paid straight time - I am a contract worker.
Programming languages
At the game company I worked at, we used C++ and C# for game engine work. For 3D environments, it was all done with Maya, we used .mel a lot which is a lot like C. We had technical artists that wrote most of the complex programmer type mel scripts. I wrote little geometry processing and file processing scripts.
Now I am learning to write Revit API code in Visual Basic.net(C# w/o curly braces) which is great for old school C programmers like myself.
Is there any other choice besides working hard? I got to a point in life where my options were work two jobs for a lot of years or get a degree and find a "real" job.
Donna is living my dream as her own boss. I know it can be difficult. My dad ran small restaurants most of my life. How many times have you been all stressed out because you got stuck in traffic and were going to be 12 minutes late or were sitting inside on a gorgeous day after 3 straight weekends of rain? Ever miss out on vacation cause you and your partner couldn't get the same weeks off? Being an employee sucks. I would estimate 80% of my managers were Dheads who got off on antagonizing the staff.
architectural management, besides being an oxymoron, rarely looks at productivity of employees, they look at how many hours you work versus the salary you make. if you work just 2 hours of overtime for free per day, for a 5 day week (and they guilt most people into working at least one weekend day), that is 10 free hours per week, 520 hours free per year, which is 13 weeks......yes over 3 MONTHS per year of free labor, per employee. I'm willing to bet your 2 weeks vacation and 7 sick days per year isn't looking like such a benefit anymore, huh? and yes, they are billing and getting compensated for that 3 months of free work you so willingly provide.
in a good firm, they take pride in completing work within a 40 hour week, and consider it a management failure if it doesn't happen......arch's are too infatuated thinking that your not creative if you don't spend inordinate and ultimately unproductive time with the 'process'. if you know your shit, that's the process.
don't kill yourself or burn yourself out, but another way to look at work us: what can I take away from this...?
In other words, every incremental task no matter how mundane or how creative and inspired gives you *something*... adds a piece of knowledge or experience you can put in your back pocket, or a built project or rendering or drawing you can put in your portfolio, a new project type yo stick in the resume, or a client or consultant or coworker relationship that becomes a resource as well... one thing that makes architecture interesting is that there is always something new to learn and it's all the cumulative bits that add up and make you an experienced professional... also, you collect all these portfolio pieces that you can always keep with you, as you move forward in your career, they are never lost, so it's cumulative... That's a positive for our design field vs say accounting or dentistry or whatever thing... So it's reason to motivate yourself to take ownership of a piece of work... However small, a detail, a code review, a rendering, or a drawing... What tidbit of knowledge or useful skill did I get from that thing that adds to my value as a professional? Or what piece of image can I stick in my portfolio?
There are worse and less interesting jobs out there...
On the other hand, not saying we shouldn't get fairly compensated... Overtime ought to be paid
On the other hand, if you are not getting anything out of it, not learning anything, not doing anything that contributes to your career or skills, and if you really feel like the job is not looking out for your development or career, then it's a paycheck... Don't kill yourself but get the work done and make a living... You can always look for another job that better meets your needs or goals...
One other thing to add: document your work, whatever you do, for your own records, always... That makes everything do something you can draw on, for a portfolio or in an interview conversation, or as a reference in your knowledge set... Because you will inevitably move around in your career, but everything you do along the journey adds to your development, but it's important never to throw away what you've done or places you've been... I keep even rough sketches or notes I've made... Materials or finish research etc.
Code research as well... Lots of things worth keeping... But filter what you value as useful to your knowledge growth... Easy to overdo it and accumulate junk too... :P
Also... Software... Regardless of where you go, software knowledge and experience will be useful as you work in offices... Each new software platform becomes an asset in your resume and in practice that makes you a bit more versatile to a potential employer...
Regarding documentation... In light of the realities of s unpredictable economy, i think this is all the more important... Keep stuff *along the journey* never wait til you are canned or whatever because you never know if your employer will let you take your work for your personal portfolio... Always negotiate this along the way, like finished project photography etc... By professional and ethical code of conduct, firms are supposed to give credit and allow employees take their own work for personal portfolio and in my experience most employers are pretty good about this, but you never know... They might just lock you out of your computer and escort you out to the street... I've heard horror stories...
Sorry for the last post... That was pretty cynical talking about getting canned etc... it's the economic deppression talking...
Truth is, aside from the personal career motivations for working hard, there's actually another kind of motivation I think that can be found in our line of work which maybe is not in every profession... That is: comradery and lasting friendships that come from working your butt off on a team... There are few other things that can bring as much shared satisfaction from a team of people as having busted your asses on a project, and then seeing that thing built... And if the thing that is built turns out to be really nice, and you can share a beer and enjoy the finished work, the bricks and mortar thing you made together, you can end up building lasting friendships, stronger bonds, trust, etc. than you would in another job where there were no challenges or long nights working on the thing...
It's hard for me to imagine accountants or dentists developing that kind of comradery through the work...
Mar 31, 11 3:50 am ·
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why are you willing to work so hard?...
i've been really struggling lately to maintain my motivation to work at my firm. i recently graduated and am working corporate in nyc, doing cool stuff and learning alot.
despite my special opportunity here, (that i know so many people would even relocate for), i can't help but constantly question my decision to be working 12-16 hours every day of the week, and every other weekend. it is stressful and so exhausting, after awhile. i'm truly inspired by architecture, but in order to be successful and excel in this field it truly requires the sacrifice of so much time - to the point where other areas of my life that were once healthy are now starved.
i guess im at a crossroads or something, and recognize that i can continue with my career, working tirelessly and being 'successful' in the way we see it, or moving onto something i'm less suited for and leading a balanced lifestyle. it's just frustrating because i do believe i'm suited for architecture in every respect, except for these absurd demands it makes on my time.
yes, i know this is a personal dilemma and should be answered personally. but i am curious to know, for you people who saw this 'issue', and continued on with your career... why did you choose that? is it really because of some histrionic 'love' for architecture?
rockaway .. not every firm requires the time commitment you outline above. what you're experiencing is perhaps indicative of the firm you chose and the city in which you live. however, it's not like that everywhere and there's no requirement that you live that way for the rest of your career.
Is the firm expecting you to work those kind of hours? Are you just not getting your work done in an efficient manner? Is the firm taking advantage of your current enthusiasm? Are you getting overtime cramming to make a deadline?
You are on a fast track to burnoutville, my friend.
what they said. keep it up as long as you think it's valuable to you, but have a plan for what's next. there are def firms that accommodate real life.
There used to be a time when architects got paid for working overtime. Back then you had to get approval to work overtime. There just wasn't enough money for inefficiency. (mind you proposals and competitions were treated differently than billable hours).
These days, taking 12 hours to accomplish something that should really only take you 3 is often confused for hard work. I had a number of coworkers who would stay late in order to look good to the upper management. Totally works. Be the first one to leave every day? It won't matter if your work is impeccable. You will be hated, and in risk of losing your job.
Trick is (and there is a solution to this) is to work for a company that will value your contribution and will trust your ability to manage your time. This is more likely to happen at a smaller firm.
Otherwise, work for yourself once the first opportunity knocks.
Completely agree...I was written up once for not working overtime, even though I 1) Had all my work done to their standards and 2) Saved them money because I was an hourly worker (and therefore federal laws state that you must pay overtime). Didn't make sense then, and sure didn't make sense when I was part of the first round of layoffs (In their defense, I'm definitely not the best person to work in a very corporate firm, as I'm a fan of the everyone is equal approach).
I hear that place is now a shell of what is was.
Basically, do your 3, get licensed and tell them where to stick their overtime and go out on your own. That is my plan if I'm unable to get into a doctoral program or find a job overseas.
There are teams in this firm that seem to work round the clock, with 4 or 5 people on the team. My team is a two person team, leaves at 5:00, and our last two projects came in with enviable profit margins...Profit is what the principals look at. Yes, we are perhaps hated, but those haters are coming to us to try to figure out how we are so efficient. Work hard, but have balance.
T~AGG. sure, that's great when you can show profit. Now imagine your 2 person 'team' as part of a much larger project. Impossible to gage profitability of individual pieces. You leave at 5, everyone else is there till eleventy. Project barely breaks even... Guess who's ass will be dumped first?
A lot of people who complain about mindless overtime are in that exact situation. I find that really inefficient people rarely complain about this. To them it's an equalizer. I can play stairway to heaven at 1/4 the speed!
There's a larger conversation here dealing with a much larger systemic problem about the workforce and the workplace. It also explains why some countries have instituted shorter work weeks, longer vacation periods and have imposed tighter regulations regarding work weeks.
In France, the 35-hour work week was suppose to increase jobs; however, it seems to have failed at doing so.
Even as far back as the early 1990s before widespread automation and computerization, there's some particular voices stressing concern over this issue.
The issue is that technology is vaporizing jobs and workplace roles faster than we can create new ones. Perhaps that is what is unique about the 2000s' economic bubble is that real estate and construction is one of the only things that hasn't be able to be replaced by computers yet. If the Harvard and IT crowd gets their wish, automated pre-fabrication could make most construction jobs obsolete.
In terms of an architecture office-- like any professional office-- there's a number of tasks that are slowly disappearing along with various jobs.
Even the process of redlining is no longer as complex as it use to be. There's no master copies, reference copies, project journals, stacks of lose notes, couriers to make copies from one office to the next and secretaries to keep track of these papers.
Now, there's a PDF with a nauseating amount of colored squiggles and boxes that can be saved, updated and duplicated almost infinitely.
In a sense, a single 'architect' on a decent computer can do the job of at least 6 to 12 standard 'architects.' Even if that employee were to be equipped with the most expensive software, the best computer and even throw in a 3d printer-- that employee with all the bells and whistles still costs less than 3 standard employees.
What it comes down to is that single employee is now doing the work of 12 employees at no increase in pay.
That's what makes Revit even more baffling is it allows a single person to do the work of say 3 or 4 dozen people. Not that it isn't necessarily a bad or complex thing but the amount of liability and responsibility placed on a single person for literally doing the work of dozens of people is a bit troubling.
Obsolescence is a funny thing. We pride ourselves on the reduction of expenses and efforts along with increases in output and efficiency. Then we realize we no longer have jobs and blame the Chinese for taking all of them.
I'm interested in understanding how a single Revit user is doing the work of 3 or 4 dozen people? Hell, it has increased our staffing, decreased productivity, and decreased drawing quality!
If we go back to pre-computer offices, changing something such as door knob height or door width on a series of doors in a project can be a baffling experience.
Say the project is a 30 story-high rise building. Each floor has anywhere between 15 and 40 doors (we'll say an average of 25). That's 750 instances of doors having to be updated.
There's 3 or 4 people involved in communicating the changes. Once every single floor plan and elevation has been updated, the previous drawings have to be collected, cataloged and destroyed.
Wall assemblies, elevations and plans will have to be meticulously checked, redrawn and updated for each specific instance of door. Even if the plans refer to a spec sheet, things like door stoppers and wall assemblies will change drastically if a door shrinks or grows by an inch.
New plans for the entire building have to be duplicated for every single person in the staff.
Mail clerks and secretaries then have to notify every single party outside of the office that the change has taken place, recall previous drawings and send out new ones.
From there, parts suppliers and construction foremen have to be made aware of the changes taking place in their orders and cost estimation. They then have to submit new estimates who will be received by mail clerks and secretaries who then have to inform other people of the changes caused by the changes.
Et cetera.
Now, if I want to change a door spec for 750 doors... it literally takes 15 minutes to update all 750 instances, redraw all adjacent walls and e-mail every interested and relevant party about the change.
One no longer has to worry about secretaries, mail clerks, reproductions, archivists, managers and couriers.
because apparently all that staff who used to be on projects were ONLY doing production - not any kind of coordination or additional design thinking or problem-solving... nope. just picking up redlines. only management does any actual thinking anyway. computer does all the production now. I heard computers can now design too! what will they think of next!
I know when I use a word processor it writes novels for me - I just write down a couple ideas, push a couple buttons and hit print. sure it's in latin-ish gibberish, but as long as it has a kick-ass cover with a pretentious title I'm sure at least the students will buy a few thousand copies.
boxman- horrible example. That's not how architectural drawings are done.
Door knob height will only be mentioned once in the door schedule, and nowhere else. Even changing the width of the door should be very simple. Change it in the door schedule and update your door wblock (in autocad) and all drawings are updated.
Changing floor elevations will screw up a bunch of drawings, but I'm not sure I'd want an automated process to make those changes for me.
At the end of the day, you have to check all of your construction documentation for accuracy manually.
boxman- horrible example. That's not how architectural drawings are done.
Door knob height will only be mentioned once in the door schedule, and nowhere else. Even changing the width of the door should be very simple. Change it in the door schedule and update your door wblock (in autocad) and all drawings are updated.
Changing floor elevations will screw up a bunch of drawings, but I'm not sure I'd want an automated process to make those changes for me.
At the end of the day, you have to check all of your construction documentation for accuracy manually.
post was directed at T-AGG...
If we go back to pre-computer offices, changing something such as door knob height or door width on a series of doors in a project can be a baffling experience.
yes - pretty baffling if you've never worked on an actual project.
Anyways, thanks for completely derailing the topic.
"Why are you willing to work so hard"
Because architecture is a project based creative endeavor that often yields deeply satisfying results. Making the extra effort will lead to better results. Architecture is also cursed with being made of professionals who's ambitions will never be fulfilled in their careers.
Result? Mindless hard work on projects you couldn't give a flying fuck about. It makes sense if you think of the setup.
rockaway,,,
I completely understand your situation. 3 to 4 years ago I was in the same boat. basically dedicated my life to the profession because many people my age do that very thing regardless of the profession. I spent 3 years of 12+ work days and 7 days a week, work weeks, all the while being pressured to get my license. So even if i had any free time I had to use it to study. People thought I was making all kinds of money when i was barely pushing 40,000. I had a b/f that i didn't see, a gym membership that I didn't use and an apartment that was empty ALL the time. Also being a woman I didn't have any mentors other than my project manager who HAD to leave to have children.
Even though all of this was happening,,2 years ago when the lay-offs started ,I still wanted to keep my job. Well after 3 rounds of lay-offs I didn't make the cut. I was let go but it was a blessing because I don't think I would've made the change on my own.
I hate to say this on here but I have since turned down full-time jobs. I have only accepted contract work. It hurts my pockets but honestly my pockets were hurting when I was working fullt-time. But now I have a life, back in shape and have a positive outlook about my future. It's hard to turn away from my original dream but I had to do it.
My advice is to way your options? Don't think about what other people might say or the state of the economy or any of that. Think about what it is you want out of life. There were several guys in the office I worked at who LOVED that lifestyle. It defined them as a person and they took pride in being an architect. That was my problem,,, i know longer felt proud to be an architect. Actually I started to feel ashamed. if you still take pride in being an architect than stick with it.
rock - my first year out of school I worked those same hours - i completely burnt out and needed a year of recovery (odd jobs, travel, + couch surfing). I also spent that year seriously contemplating whether or not I really wanted to continue on in architecture, and even though I found a job at a firm with a more reasonable time expectations (as quiz said, these places exist), I still spent several years planning my exit because I thought I couldn't physically put in the time it really took to be "successful." Now that I've been doing this for a while and have realized that you really don't need to work insane hours to do well in this field, spending all those years thinking I was about to leave prevented me from actually learning as much as I could - so that now that I'm committed to staying I'm playing catch up and am a little behind where I should be.
so... you are normal - no one can sustain those kinds of hours and remain a sane person. it is possible to find success in this field and still have somewhat of a life outside of it. IMO - don't kill yourself until you start your own office.
even then, I'd consider chapter 11 before committing suicide.
only push that hard if what you are learning is in alignment with your long-term goals
pushing hard to learn something, however practically valuable, that isn't really what you want to do is usually not the best use of time
Ugh, derailed? There's two sides to every coin.
This is just non-resulting navel gazing. Every response to this question can be summed up by the basic tenets of conflict and narrative.
Man vs. self-- problem with self, pursuit for self-betterment
"I became a ________ because it was always what I wanted to achieve."
Man vs. man-- prove success to antagonist regarding man-versus-self sub-narrative
"Despite pressures from family and friends, I continue to succeed in my career despite __________."
Man vs. society-- conflict with social norms and pressures de jure
"I became a _________ because I wanted to use my skills and knowledge to help __________."
Man vs. nature-- work to survive, gain shelter, avoid starvation; could be confounded with human environments of lower classes, e.g. fight conflict to avoid living in a SRO
"Even though I am not as paid as much as I want to be paid, I am happy because I live in _________ and can do ________."
Man vs. technology-- identifies and combats technological danger and failures; could resolve around man versus man, man versus self and man versus society
"I hate what ___________ has done to ________ and _______. I feel __________ can _____________ with my skills, education and knowledge."
Man vs. destiny-- avoiding, combating or delaying the inevitable, can relate to all other sub-narratives
"I have/will/might start my own business because _________ and _______."
You next move should be the who, whats and hows: Why do I work so much? How do I work? What do I work on? Where do I work? Who do I work for?
rusty ... is it "boxman" or "blockhead" ?
It's "dick in the box" on Tuesdays.
He knows we hate fill in the blank tests.
..would love to stay and chat, but I gotta be out by 5:00.
Im only allowed to work 40 hrs a week...
Architects are assholes
When I was a 3D environment designer in the Video game industry, we had what they called mandatory hours. This could be any where from 60 - 80 hours a week - then to top of it off, I decided to go architecture school to pursue my M.Arch. The video game studio reluctantly let me cut my hours back to part time(40 Hrs/week) while I spent the next 3 years earning my M.arch degree. In two years, time I paid it back to them, when I helped design their new office TI project and used my architecture skills on "Red Dead Redemption" and Midnight Club Los Angeles.
Over the last 30+ years of my 3D artist and now architecture careers, I have generally spent 50 to 60 hours/week. I have pulled two all nighters recently - because I need to work 2 architecture jobs just to stay afloat - Good thing I like doing what I am doing - or as the Dean of Architecture said at my school "It's only work if you would rather be doing something else"
"If I get home before daybreak, just might get some sleep tonight"
@ rethinkit
Do you get paid overtime? I don't mind working those hours if you are compensated for it. Architects usually don't pay by the hour, That was the problem that I and almost everyone one of my friends had.
My roommate is a massage therapist who generally makes 60 to 75 a hour but she can only work 4 to 5 hours a day because it's physical work. She's self employed so AFTER taxes she was only making about 30,000 a year.
One night we calculated how much I was making given the hours I was working and the fact that I got fixed salary. It came out to a measly 12.50 a hour.
Side note what programming language did you use while you were a Video game Designer?
lanah: Glad to hear your post-layoff experience has given you some positive perspective.
rockaway: listen to those of us saying there *are* firms where you don't have to pull those kinds of hours week after week. Sometimes is OK, but not consistently.
Also, as a self-employed architect, I've come to realize just how much emotional freedom I have that I don't have to be in some specific physical place - an office - the whole time I'm working, even if it is long hours. Being able to up and go walk the dog on a nice day, even knowing it will mean working an hour longer after the rest of the family has gone to bed, is incredibly valuable.
Sounds like the way I was in NYC for 6 years...I finally had it and moved West to a better balance of life/work...and couldn't be more happy I did...
lanah
Did I get paid overtime?
At the game company? no - that is until a class action lawsuit was filed, and I recieved a settlement in '09. The money came in handy for the 1 year I was unemployed/working for free in '09 -
In architecture? I did get paid OT from a large firm I worked at in SF -Now? I work for two small offices, and get paid straight time - I am a contract worker.
Programming languages
At the game company I worked at, we used C++ and C# for game engine work. For 3D environments, it was all done with Maya, we used .mel a lot which is a lot like C. We had technical artists that wrote most of the complex programmer type mel scripts. I wrote little geometry processing and file processing scripts.
Now I am learning to write Revit API code in Visual Basic.net(C# w/o curly braces) which is great for old school C programmers like myself.
You worked for EA?
Is there any other choice besides working hard? I got to a point in life where my options were work two jobs for a lot of years or get a degree and find a "real" job.
Donna is living my dream as her own boss. I know it can be difficult. My dad ran small restaurants most of my life. How many times have you been all stressed out because you got stuck in traffic and were going to be 12 minutes late or were sitting inside on a gorgeous day after 3 straight weekends of rain? Ever miss out on vacation cause you and your partner couldn't get the same weeks off? Being an employee sucks. I would estimate 80% of my managers were Dheads who got off on antagonizing the staff.
my only problem when i was on my own is that - after goin out for an hour during the day - i wasn't willing to go to bed that hour later...
well, ok, that wasn't my only problem. i also hated it.
architectural management, besides being an oxymoron, rarely looks at productivity of employees, they look at how many hours you work versus the salary you make. if you work just 2 hours of overtime for free per day, for a 5 day week (and they guilt most people into working at least one weekend day), that is 10 free hours per week, 520 hours free per year, which is 13 weeks......yes over 3 MONTHS per year of free labor, per employee. I'm willing to bet your 2 weeks vacation and 7 sick days per year isn't looking like such a benefit anymore, huh? and yes, they are billing and getting compensated for that 3 months of free work you so willingly provide.
in a good firm, they take pride in completing work within a 40 hour week, and consider it a management failure if it doesn't happen......arch's are too infatuated thinking that your not creative if you don't spend inordinate and ultimately unproductive time with the 'process'. if you know your shit, that's the process.
don't kill yourself or burn yourself out, but another way to look at work us: what can I take away from this...?
In other words, every incremental task no matter how mundane or how creative and inspired gives you *something*... adds a piece of knowledge or experience you can put in your back pocket, or a built project or rendering or drawing you can put in your portfolio, a new project type yo stick in the resume, or a client or consultant or coworker relationship that becomes a resource as well... one thing that makes architecture interesting is that there is always something new to learn and it's all the cumulative bits that add up and make you an experienced professional... also, you collect all these portfolio pieces that you can always keep with you, as you move forward in your career, they are never lost, so it's cumulative... That's a positive for our design field vs say accounting or dentistry or whatever thing... So it's reason to motivate yourself to take ownership of a piece of work... However small, a detail, a code review, a rendering, or a drawing... What tidbit of knowledge or useful skill did I get from that thing that adds to my value as a professional? Or what piece of image can I stick in my portfolio?
There are worse and less interesting jobs out there...
On the other hand, not saying we shouldn't get fairly compensated... Overtime ought to be paid
On the other hand, if you are not getting anything out of it, not learning anything, not doing anything that contributes to your career or skills, and if you really feel like the job is not looking out for your development or career, then it's a paycheck... Don't kill yourself but get the work done and make a living... You can always look for another job that better meets your needs or goals...
really good point, brink. i haven't been looking at it that way but it is all quite true in my case.
Rockaway, NYC arch firms eat employees for breakfast, I'd suggest finding work elsewhere if you don't want to work yourself to death.
That's pretty much what I did.
One other thing to add: document your work, whatever you do, for your own records, always... That makes everything do something you can draw on, for a portfolio or in an interview conversation, or as a reference in your knowledge set... Because you will inevitably move around in your career, but everything you do along the journey adds to your development, but it's important never to throw away what you've done or places you've been... I keep even rough sketches or notes I've made... Materials or finish research etc.
Code research as well... Lots of things worth keeping... But filter what you value as useful to your knowledge growth... Easy to overdo it and accumulate junk too... :P
Also... Software... Regardless of where you go, software knowledge and experience will be useful as you work in offices... Each new software platform becomes an asset in your resume and in practice that makes you a bit more versatile to a potential employer...
Regarding documentation... In light of the realities of s unpredictable economy, i think this is all the more important... Keep stuff *along the journey* never wait til you are canned or whatever because you never know if your employer will let you take your work for your personal portfolio... Always negotiate this along the way, like finished project photography etc... By professional and ethical code of conduct, firms are supposed to give credit and allow employees take their own work for personal portfolio and in my experience most employers are pretty good about this, but you never know... They might just lock you out of your computer and escort you out to the street... I've heard horror stories...
Sorry for the last post... That was pretty cynical talking about getting canned etc... it's the economic deppression talking...
Truth is, aside from the personal career motivations for working hard, there's actually another kind of motivation I think that can be found in our line of work which maybe is not in every profession... That is: comradery and lasting friendships that come from working your butt off on a team... There are few other things that can bring as much shared satisfaction from a team of people as having busted your asses on a project, and then seeing that thing built... And if the thing that is built turns out to be really nice, and you can share a beer and enjoy the finished work, the bricks and mortar thing you made together, you can end up building lasting friendships, stronger bonds, trust, etc. than you would in another job where there were no challenges or long nights working on the thing...
It's hard for me to imagine accountants or dentists developing that kind of comradery through the work...
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