Bim is quickly becoming a ‘buzzword’. It is nearly impossible to open any piece of architectural press nowadays without seeing it somewhere. Because of that, a lot of people are sticking their hands in the air and shouting as loud as they can “I do bim”. A bit like the really keen guy in class that couldn’t wait to let teacher know the answer back at school, they can hardly stop from blurting it out wherever they go. The result is that the real message is becoming lost amongst the hype, and we need a new ‘hip’ term to refer to that process.
“You are probably not doing bim… If”
1. you have not radically changed how you work.
2. you use a large amount of text.
3. you don’t use a ridiculous amount of Shared Parameters.
4. you can’t show perspectives of rooms to your client for fear of it not portraying the design.
5. you are scared of sharing your model with contractors.
6. you are more concerned with drawing graphics than data.
7. your team launches AutoCAD as much as Revit.
8. you have data in places that doesn’t or cannot interface together.
9. your consultants are not creating data rich models also.
10. you think that just because I mentioned a lot of things about a Revit model, you still believe that Revit = BIM
I vow to never use BIM. I hate R3^!+. Why should buildings be so unnecessarily large to require schedules upon schedules of details? Does this pseudo-complexity make architects worth more? Is our ability, as a profession, to delegate complex thinking to software good for our future? BIM takes the fun out of drawing. Architecture and drawing have been synonymous forever (check your library for specifics) and this is what I see as the buzz kill. Where is the freedom in such a design method? Why is architecture falling victim to the interface (Deleuze)? I don't believe it will make things better.... and if you do, I won't hire you.
"Unless you're using BIM to the fullest extent (lots of data, families and integration) and sharing your work... then there's no real reason to use it"
total rubbish - I bet you are still giving it a hard ass approach to design documentation...
Pencil revolution 2/18/11 !??! ... while were at it why dont we go back to writing hand written letters and not using archinect to discuss the future of technology?
"Is our ability, as a profession, to delegate complex thinking to software good for our future?" ...Its called a calculator or computer
Architecture and MODELING have been synonymous forever too!
BIM is a tool, plain and simple. Just because someone hands you a hammer and a saw doesn't mean you suddenly become a master carpenter.
The core issue is that architects and engineers need to understand what is going on behind the program (e.g. the calculation methods in the engineers case) before you use any advanced tools. I see the same thing in some of the younger engineering students that I tought- they see RAM and think that they can design a structure without understanding any of the calculation methods that this program uses to facilitate structural analysis.
When there are highly repetitive tasks that do not require any "design thought" these tools can be a real timesaver- like the drafting of CDs after the design is complete.
If you are an architect or engineer and let your software do any of your "design thinking" for you for one iota of a second, you are a) an iminent risk to public safety and b) are far too incompetent to be a licensed professional.
If you're using Revit for components and to automate the repetitive tasks with minimal data production... SketchUp does that 'out of the box' in a far easier method that actually lets you work in perspective.
I also think Vectorworks does it without having to dive down too much into its BIM functionality.
What bothers me is I see architects creating BIM models and expending more time then they did when using autocad, and for a lower fee! At the same time, contractors are now creating a seperate line item below their general conditions for 'bim modeling and 3d coordination' and are getting $$$.
This has to be my favourite thread. The dude abides.
'BIM' has become another from of washing akin to 'green'.
On one hand it frees up a lot of design fees to work on [gasp!] actual design, as opposed to tedious bullshit tasks.
On the other it hasn't yet revamped the architectural process nor the architectural business model. Yet. I assume it will become the norm in 5-10 years. That is probably a conservative estimate.
What is even the point of bringing it up? Banal firms being able to do yet more banal buildings and put their stamp on it quicker? Whoop de do.
come on people how is all this going to land me a job?
on the one hand if software makes it possible like jplourde said, to do yet more banal buildings and put stamps on it quicker, doesnt that also mean less man power? less people doing more work. Its an express ticket to a heart attack, faster than eating big macs every day. Whos going to want to slave away for an architecture firm, so the president can vacation in italy every year?
I don't even see where the debate is. Everyone knows that Revit is coming on strong. More offices are using it, requiring it on job postings. Students are learning it earlier at the universities.
I've been modeling and rendering for many years. Now I can apply those skills to 2d design/construction documents. I think it's the best of both worlds without all that back and forth between multiple software packages. Plus the render engine, though not nearly as good as vray or maxwell, is pretty damn fast when you need something on the fly to show to your boss. And if you want a nice rendering, just export the model.
I've seen many architects get cut off at DD and the project is handed over to BIM firms to finish it off. Especially when the client is a developer or contractor, an architect is just hired to make preliminary sketches. So unless you want to be a concept architect working for $10 an hour in 5 years then BIM isn't something for you.
If I look at my friends in the automotive industry they just can't imagine that a tool like SkectUp is used professionally.
No it's not hard to learn - if you were smart enough to make through architecture school and hold down a job in this most unforgiving of professions, then the least you can do is learn Revit. Where I work, we use Revit from concept through SD, DD, CD, CA and handle RFIs in the same file. In a small office like the one I work for, it is the only way to stay on top of things and elliminate confusion - esp when you model the entire HVAC duct work to show an MEP consultant where the ducts really need to go between the ceiling grids and and structure - they chose to do things in autocad and ended up creating linguini clashatoli. With Revitini, we were able to show exactly what is possible to make things work. If anything, Revit is great for coordination - this tool makes it possible to elliminate the adversarial relationships between architecture vs consulatants. If that is all Revit is good for, then it's worth at least to learn it - is it really worth it to hang on to "legacy" approaches when the end result is long tern unemployment or a bushel barrel of RFIs - all it takes is two weeks folks.
"you may drive a bimmer, but i'll stick with my domestic auto."
take your pick, a 2011 M3 or a 92' Chevy Caprice with bad shocks and burn't piston rings
What the hell are drawings? Seriously we've pissed architecure down 2d representation road for too many years now. Scientists describe the world in data and parameters, but architects are better than scientists.
Anyway, some shit just takes a lot less time with pencil and paper...go mckim mead white renovation details for me and make it snappy.
I like to goto the grocery store like the dude when I need a break from this shit known as architecture.
an investment banker? . I see them everymorning when I get off BART at Montgomery station as they damn near run me down on thier fixies as I cross Market - they make the big bux - and today I couldn't even afford a BART ticket home, so I will sleep on top of the carpet samples again and use a BIM produced permit set for a blanket - oh well -
rethinkit, i really liked your response until you started comparing cars. i don't think you know much about cars, which is fine since this is an architecture website, but not okay for an analogy of revit & cad. why is the chevy a '92 yet the m1 an '11? Revit is not that new and my CAD release is <1 year old. so i believe the two are on more of a level playing field. let's change the m1 to a '98 3-series and have fun replacing some part on the inline six.
modeling HVAC is crucial for folks like yourself and I am glad you finally have a system available. i always hated basement bulkheads in my suburban friends' homes and i see it is now in your hands to prevent this from ever happening again. yet i've modeled HVAC in non-bim software without this italian head-scratch pasta you believe is inherent.
here in Detroit a '92 caprice would knock any bimmer off the road. they are way more intimidating. in fact, you only find bimmobiles on the highway or in parking garages - temporary locations - serving the businessman well for his quick and efficient desires. kind of like bimfirms? a caprice with 20's+ is great on unplowed winter streets.
I liked your BIM agument rethinkit until you dragged it down to cars.
Cars and buildings are not the same on so many levels without going down the road contrasting US with European car design - I don't think it's a software design problem.
Cars = 0.01 to 0.001" tolerance
Buildings = 1/32" to 1/4"
I wouldn't even remotely try to model anything requiring accuracy within a 0.001" with the standard fair (autocad, revit, 3dsmax/maya, rhino). AutoCAD is actually not infallible since the program suffers from floating point operation miscalculations.
If you're talking about performance and precision... that's CATIA, Pro-E, Solidworks, NX territory. Architecture is really not a "precise" process.
Like Olaf pointed out is that what it comes down to is representation.
Small jobs and even some big jobs don't necessarily require massive amounts of cross-collaboration. And GASP... drawings sometimes don't even have to be accurate.
I appreciate BIM. I like BIM but for most things I don't really see a point unless you're working with a dozen different teams over a few dozen employees.
i bought a few used manuals and am attempting to slay (or ride?) this beast. or maybe i should just boot up Sim Tower on floppies, the original BIM! predict hotel room occupancies & unit prices. wonderful stuff.
I love discussions like these... They are great to have. Feel free to have them over at my blog to. The for and against Revit arguments are the most fun.
hate to say it, but these "kids" in high school can do some serious design + production - they have instantaneous eye hand coordination from playing video games that make a fast 16 or 17 year old BIMer. I use to work with people like this, and they are pretty sharp. The RevitKid is basically doing what many should be doing. They are teaching Revit in high school architecture classes. When they get to college, they will have an advantage, and will be able to perform design with BIM w/o paper sketches or models or any of that old school stuff. 2, 3 years tops, and they will be in calling the shots at major architecture offices - I know of 3 individuals that came up that way, and one is about to make partner at age 28 - she knows Revit, Rhino, and has designed 3 skyscrapers in China- all because she got started in high school and kick some serious ass since then.
Rethinkit - great article. Indie actually begin Revit, CAD, sketcup, and 3d mas in high school. I would not be where I am today if it were not for that.
Architectum - The concept wasnsupposed to be a little ugly. Childish. That character has become a brand for me. I would love to change the font one day though because that has always bugged me. When I have time I will.
Stating that bimmers have no design sensibility is a pretty bold statement considering almost all of the Architects who will get licenses and be designing buildings in the next 4 or 5 years will probably be using a BIM software to do it... Hence, bimmers.
"considering almost all of the Architects who will get licenses and be designing buildings in the next 4 or 5 years will probably be using a BIM software to do it..."
"Dammit, I do bim…"
“You are probably not doing bim… If”
1. you have not radically changed how you work.
2. you use a large amount of text.
3. you don’t use a ridiculous amount of Shared Parameters.
4. you can’t show perspectives of rooms to your client for fear of it not portraying the design.
5. you are scared of sharing your model with contractors.
6. you are more concerned with drawing graphics than data.
7. your team launches AutoCAD as much as Revit.
8. you have data in places that doesn’t or cannot interface together.
9. your consultants are not creating data rich models also.
10. you think that just because I mentioned a lot of things about a Revit model, you still believe that Revit = BIM
From here: BDonline.co.uk
I still jerk off manually
Fuckin' A, man. I got a rash, man
@midler: so are you saying that bim stands for beat it manually?
who cares?
I'm totally not getting any of these O Brother, Where Art Thou? references.
I vow to never use BIM. I hate R3^!+. Why should buildings be so unnecessarily large to require schedules upon schedules of details? Does this pseudo-complexity make architects worth more? Is our ability, as a profession, to delegate complex thinking to software good for our future? BIM takes the fun out of drawing. Architecture and drawing have been synonymous forever (check your library for specifics) and this is what I see as the buzz kill. Where is the freedom in such a design method? Why is architecture falling victim to the interface (Deleuze)? I don't believe it will make things better.... and if you do, I won't hire you.
Pencil revolution 2/18/11
I think that's what the author was implying architectum.
Unless you're using BIM to the fullest extent (lots of data, families and integration) and sharing your work... then there's no real reason to use it.
"Unless you're using BIM to the fullest extent (lots of data, families and integration) and sharing your work... then there's no real reason to use it"
total rubbish - I bet you are still giving it a hard ass approach to design documentation...
Pencil revolution 2/18/11 !??! ... while were at it why dont we go back to writing hand written letters and not using archinect to discuss the future of technology?
"Is our ability, as a profession, to delegate complex thinking to software good for our future?" ...Its called a calculator or computer
Architecture and MODELING have been synonymous forever too!
Why not use that BIM model more intelligently?!?
BIM is a tool, plain and simple. Just because someone hands you a hammer and a saw doesn't mean you suddenly become a master carpenter.
The core issue is that architects and engineers need to understand what is going on behind the program (e.g. the calculation methods in the engineers case) before you use any advanced tools. I see the same thing in some of the younger engineering students that I tought- they see RAM and think that they can design a structure without understanding any of the calculation methods that this program uses to facilitate structural analysis.
When there are highly repetitive tasks that do not require any "design thought" these tools can be a real timesaver- like the drafting of CDs after the design is complete.
If you are an architect or engineer and let your software do any of your "design thinking" for you for one iota of a second, you are a) an iminent risk to public safety and b) are far too incompetent to be a licensed professional.
Tought = taught.
Iminent = imminent
Please excuse the horrible typos above. I am without coffee this morning and can't find a way to edit past posts.
If you're using Revit for components and to automate the repetitive tasks with minimal data production... SketchUp does that 'out of the box' in a far easier method that actually lets you work in perspective.
I also think Vectorworks does it without having to dive down too much into its BIM functionality.
Revit can work in perspective and when it comes to translating a sketch into design documentation it makes sketch up look like this in comparison
LOL. Only in axonometric.
Some of us like two-point perspective.
What bothers me is I see architects creating BIM models and expending more time then they did when using autocad, and for a lower fee! At the same time, contractors are now creating a seperate line item below their general conditions for 'bim modeling and 3d coordination' and are getting $$$.
This has to be my favourite thread. The dude abides.
'BIM' has become another from of washing akin to 'green'.
On one hand it frees up a lot of design fees to work on [gasp!] actual design, as opposed to tedious bullshit tasks.
On the other it hasn't yet revamped the architectural process nor the architectural business model. Yet. I assume it will become the norm in 5-10 years. That is probably a conservative estimate.
What is even the point of bringing it up? Banal firms being able to do yet more banal buildings and put their stamp on it quicker? Whoop de do.
come on people how is all this going to land me a job?
on the one hand if software makes it possible like jplourde said, to do yet more banal buildings and put stamps on it quicker, doesnt that also mean less man power? less people doing more work. Its an express ticket to a heart attack, faster than eating big macs every day. Whos going to want to slave away for an architecture firm, so the president can vacation in italy every year?
I don't even see where the debate is. Everyone knows that Revit is coming on strong. More offices are using it, requiring it on job postings. Students are learning it earlier at the universities.
I've been modeling and rendering for many years. Now I can apply those skills to 2d design/construction documents. I think it's the best of both worlds without all that back and forth between multiple software packages. Plus the render engine, though not nearly as good as vray or maxwell, is pretty damn fast when you need something on the fly to show to your boss. And if you want a nice rendering, just export the model.
If people want to hate on Revit, go for it.
If people want to hate on Revit, don't. There is no reason.
many reasons.
reason #1 - revit is not mac compatible
;)
I want to learn Bim for Free...or Rivit....before I die..
architectum - get a PC ;-)
I'll take your old one, BOTS. I've got a bunch of linux distros we can install or perhaps play sim city off of a floppy?
loved that game
i have roller coaster tycoon on cd and simfarm on floppy too if you get the chance.
I've seen many architects get cut off at DD and the project is handed over to BIM firms to finish it off. Especially when the client is a developer or contractor, an architect is just hired to make preliminary sketches. So unless you want to be a concept architect working for $10 an hour in 5 years then BIM isn't something for you.
If I look at my friends in the automotive industry they just can't imagine that a tool like SkectUp is used professionally.
hooray for the auto indultry
meant industry (or was it adultery?)
I love the sentiment: "Yeah, Bim is all like.... difficult and shit. It's too conceptual like uh.. sketchup..."
READ A BOOK
TAKE A COURSE
IT'S NOT THAT HARD
Now I know why automobiles...are so nasty looking....they have been bimmed. I wish I knew the lady bim, cause she sounds hot.
you may drive a bimmer, but i'll stick with my domestic auto.
BIMmer - the ultimate design machine -
No it's not hard to learn - if you were smart enough to make through architecture school and hold down a job in this most unforgiving of professions, then the least you can do is learn Revit. Where I work, we use Revit from concept through SD, DD, CD, CA and handle RFIs in the same file. In a small office like the one I work for, it is the only way to stay on top of things and elliminate confusion - esp when you model the entire HVAC duct work to show an MEP consultant where the ducts really need to go between the ceiling grids and and structure - they chose to do things in autocad and ended up creating linguini clashatoli. With Revitini, we were able to show exactly what is possible to make things work. If anything, Revit is great for coordination - this tool makes it possible to elliminate the adversarial relationships between architecture vs consulatants. If that is all Revit is good for, then it's worth at least to learn it - is it really worth it to hang on to "legacy" approaches when the end result is long tern unemployment or a bushel barrel of RFIs - all it takes is two weeks folks.
"you may drive a bimmer, but i'll stick with my domestic auto."
take your pick, a 2011 M3 or a 92' Chevy Caprice with bad shocks and burn't piston rings
What the hell are drawings? Seriously we've pissed architecure down 2d representation road for too many years now. Scientists describe the world in data and parameters, but architects are better than scientists.
Anyway, some shit just takes a lot less time with pencil and paper...go mckim mead white renovation details for me and make it snappy.
I like to goto the grocery store like the dude when I need a break from this shit known as architecture.
same here, I just fire up a render, and wander up to Caffe Trieste for a glass of house red - LG
Oh BIM - Beer In Morning
Isn't that the goal, more money, more drinking, less work...who doesn't want to be an investment banker?
an investment banker? . I see them everymorning when I get off BART at Montgomery station as they damn near run me down on thier fixies as I cross Market - they make the big bux - and today I couldn't even afford a BART ticket home, so I will sleep on top of the carpet samples again and use a BIM produced permit set for a blanket - oh well -
rethinkit, i really liked your response until you started comparing cars. i don't think you know much about cars, which is fine since this is an architecture website, but not okay for an analogy of revit & cad. why is the chevy a '92 yet the m1 an '11? Revit is not that new and my CAD release is <1 year old. so i believe the two are on more of a level playing field. let's change the m1 to a '98 3-series and have fun replacing some part on the inline six.
modeling HVAC is crucial for folks like yourself and I am glad you finally have a system available. i always hated basement bulkheads in my suburban friends' homes and i see it is now in your hands to prevent this from ever happening again. yet i've modeled HVAC in non-bim software without this italian head-scratch pasta you believe is inherent.
here in Detroit a '92 caprice would knock any bimmer off the road. they are way more intimidating. in fact, you only find bimmobiles on the highway or in parking garages - temporary locations - serving the businessman well for his quick and efficient desires. kind of like bimfirms? a caprice with 20's+ is great on unplowed winter streets.
I liked your BIM agument rethinkit until you dragged it down to cars.
Cars and buildings are not the same on so many levels without going down the road contrasting US with European car design - I don't think it's a software design problem.
Cars = 0.01 to 0.001" tolerance
Buildings = 1/32" to 1/4"
I wouldn't even remotely try to model anything requiring accuracy within a 0.001" with the standard fair (autocad, revit, 3dsmax/maya, rhino). AutoCAD is actually not infallible since the program suffers from floating point operation miscalculations.
If you're talking about performance and precision... that's CATIA, Pro-E, Solidworks, NX territory. Architecture is really not a "precise" process.
Like Olaf pointed out is that what it comes down to is representation.
Small jobs and even some big jobs don't necessarily require massive amounts of cross-collaboration. And GASP... drawings sometimes don't even have to be accurate.
I appreciate BIM. I like BIM but for most things I don't really see a point unless you're working with a dozen different teams over a few dozen employees.
i bought a few used manuals and am attempting to slay (or ride?) this beast. or maybe i should just boot up Sim Tower on floppies, the original BIM! predict hotel room occupancies & unit prices. wonderful stuff.
BIM is someasy even a kid can do it ;)
See: www.TheRevitKid.com
I love discussions like these... They are great to have. Feel free to have them over at my blog to. The for and against Revit arguments are the most fun.
dammit, i do bim so well, i can bim 2 to 3 buildings at once
Oh - Building In Minutes
Kid, your banner is horrendous. Goes along with my belief that bimmers have no design sensibility.
hate to say it, but these "kids" in high school can do some serious design + production - they have instantaneous eye hand coordination from playing video games that make a fast 16 or 17 year old BIMer. I use to work with people like this, and they are pretty sharp. The RevitKid is basically doing what many should be doing. They are teaching Revit in high school architecture classes. When they get to college, they will have an advantage, and will be able to perform design with BIM w/o paper sketches or models or any of that old school stuff. 2, 3 years tops, and they will be in calling the shots at major architecture offices - I know of 3 individuals that came up that way, and one is about to make partner at age 28 - she knows Revit, Rhino, and has designed 3 skyscrapers in China- all because she got started in high school and kick some serious ass since then.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20100219-Career-oriented-courses-at-Texas-schools-5365.ece
Rethinkit - great article. Indie actually begin Revit, CAD, sketcup, and 3d mas in high school. I would not be where I am today if it were not for that.
Architectum - The concept wasnsupposed to be a little ugly. Childish. That character has become a brand for me. I would love to change the font one day though because that has always bugged me. When I have time I will.
Stating that bimmers have no design sensibility is a pretty bold statement considering almost all of the Architects who will get licenses and be designing buildings in the next 4 or 5 years will probably be using a BIM software to do it... Hence, bimmers.
I actual began Revit*. ... Damn iPad autocorrect.
"considering almost all of the Architects who will get licenses and be designing buildings in the next 4 or 5 years will probably be using a BIM software to do it..."
I really don't think so.
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