This is theoretical-slash-hypothetical and is not situated in any specific area. So, I'm not sure if there is any relevant code information I could find. I also do not have access to an IBC book.
I do know that there are glass and glazing systems that have fire ratings. But can a glass enclosure for means of emergency egress be an acceptable alternative to the standard?
I can illustrate the proposed situation if need be. But basically I have an idea of a generic hallway-and-big-room office building but rather than relying on gypsum board and fluorescent lighting, I'd like to use glass as a partition.
No. The corridor has to be 2 or 3 hour rated and I don't think there's a glass enclosure with that rating. If someone knows otherwise, please do tell! I am curious too.
Don't call it firestop. Firestoping refers to through-penetration firestop systems for penetrations through fire-resistance-rated constructions, including both empty openings and openings containing penetrating items.
Now, fire-resistive glazing partitions are possible. As mentioned in here, glazing itself can come with up to 180min ratings. Your glass framing system will have to be made out of insulated steel (as opposed to aluminum). Aluminum does not behave well in fire.
Thus, your overall assembly will be quite expensive.
From my notes: The limiting sizes of wired-glass panels for each fire-protection-rated window are published in the model codes. Maximum sizes for ceramic glass may be greater than wired glass and should be verified with test results from the glass manufacturer. Wired glass may not be permitted where the window is subject to human impact. Interpretation of this requirement is subject to review by authorities having jurisdiction.
A & S Window Associates, Inc.
The William Bayley Company
Bliss-Nor Am Windows & Doors
Crittall Windows North America;
The Fox Steel Co.
DV Fyre-Tec, Inc.
Hope’s Windows, Inc.
Optimum Window Manufacturing
Torrance Steel Window Co., Inc.
All of these should be able to manufacture your partition.
we, cad monkeys, would like to know where in the code a two or three hour partition is required at corridor walls? ibc only requires one hour for unsprinklered and zero hour for sprinklered for type B occupancy as far as i know.
Is a three-hour fire rating even necessary if a floor has say 90% transparency? You know, everything except bathrooms and elevator cores being made of glass?
I'm assuming the reason for lengthy fire requirements is that a fire maybe present without detection-- i.e. non-functioning fire alarms and not visible.
But if all the walls are transparent (or at least highly translucent), does one really need 3 hours to evacuate a 'crystal palace?'
3h is reserved for large electrical and mechanical system rooms.
2h is typically for double story atriums and lofts.
"But if all the walls are transparent (or at least highly translucent), does one really need 3 hours to evacuate a 'crystal palace?'"
Oh, boy.
You need to figure out what your occupancy requirements are before you start erecting glass everywhere. Your means of egress (stairs, corridors) will have to be fire protected.An office building with a single occupant per floor can have an unobstructed space. An apartment building will need each unit to be fire protected.
Most states provide their adopted version of the IBC or cities (like nyc. Free on web
I second rustystuds, oh boy...its about occupancy man occupancy and required fire seperations or divisions based on many factors and code definitions.
It can be done and expensive as hell mind you
And to second rustystuds again
Glass firestopping...man I was excited to see a thread on this, but disappointingly NO.
I am actually trying to formulate what that could be in my mind, sounds cool but what is it? And why for?
Maybe we are on to something.
Glass block ish?
One key distinction: most of the fire rated glass systems are for "openings" --the code expects that you are building solid walls and the allows a percentage of openings--so if you are doing this check that the system you want to use is rated as a wall.
TGP Glass systems advertises with a big photo of a glass-enclosed stair, so I guess they found someone to approve the type of arrangement you describe.
you know if you were Norman Foster you'd get the client to change Japanese building code by doing a full size mock-up with actual tests, just saying. (Century Tower Bunkyo-ku in Tokyo, Japan)
how does that man do it? he'd make glass firestopping work.
I hope this makes sense? My idea was basically to have a large open plan office with a smallish core/staircase.
I know that it will be trick so I wanted to wrap the outside of it with a wide all glass hallway. The exterior facade with single-pane glass and possibly a rainscreen or shutter system (large dashed line). The interior glass wall be a double-pane insulating glazing system (small dashed line).
My idea was to use the hallway as a giant cushion of insulating air while providing egress. I also like to think of it as both a security measure and a cleanliness measure.
The other idea was shifting bulky weight away from the far edges of the building allow me to play more with the interior support structure.
You can see why I want to provide a hallway. I think the people on the far edge of the building are too far away from exits as is.
The exterior facade with single-pane glass... The interior glass wall be a double-pane insulating glazing system
My head. It hurts.
My idea was to use the hallway as a giant cushion of insulating air while providing egress.
Your entire curtainwall would have to be fire-rated. You just lost your commission.
If you want to design a double curtainwall, that's fine. They are not that uncommon in moderate climates. They can also be very beneficial in terms of ventilation and noise protection. But to use said walls as fire rated egress is crazytown.
I think the people on the far edge of the building are too far away from exits as is.
Either they are or they are not. Pull out your scale and find out. It' not hard.
Even if your curtainwall was rated, this design would still not be up to code due to corridor distances.
Secrecy is like banging a prostitute on Kwinter's desk.
Everyone does it and there's a beautiful humanist quality but you never talk about who's stain is who when it comes down to orders, details and hegemony.
Vado I think they are drawing a pretty damn crappy floor plan in InDesign...not even a CAD program...reminds me of grad school, haha. Educating useless dreamers, yay.
Air cushion? What like insulation?
Based on your floor plan, why the corridor? Plenty of open offices that egress into the core of the building, just get rid of the corridor.
Actually nothing you are saying is making. Can I try some?
Vado I think they are drawing a pretty damn crappy floor plan in InDesign...not even a CAD program...reminds me of grad school, haha. Educating useless dreamers, yay.
Air cushion? What like insulation?
Based on your floor plan, why the corridor? Plenty of open offices that egress into the core of the building, just get rid of the corridor.
Actually nothing you are saying is making. Can I try some?
No but a nagging issue in office environments in the surprise boss sweeps. I wanted to isolate them from the general 'work population' when they do their surveying.
The isolated hallway also allows for people to leave the work area and have private phone conversations, person-to-person conversations and other interactions while still being in view.
The infestation part more or less has to do with controlling access corridors to prevent infestations from spiraling out of control. Dividing the hallways from circulation (both air and access) allows one to use pesticides and other control measures without residual risks-- i.e., not spraying actual work areas but only the areas in between work areas.
The other idea was isolating each floor and access to the floors as a means of bedbug management. If one floor has a bed bug infestation, the floor can be sealed off quicker and treated.
And because the demands of all glass partitions and transparency, more work will have to be put into properly integrating electrical, plumbing, telephony and the like. That means there will be less pockets and less cracks for cockroaches, rats, mice and bedbugs from crawling into spreading.
issue in office environments:
surprise boss sweeps
allows one to use pesticides
means of bedbug management
less cracks for cockroaches, rats, mice and bedbugs
Seriously, when was the last time you've ever heard an architect say the follow phrase:
"This design should successfully discourage cockroach infestations."
It's an entirely important avenue of study. And part of the role of architecture is to protect "inhabitants" from "elements." Why isn't integrated pest management as talked about as "creating space and stirring the soul?"
When I see a hot piece of architecture... one of the firsts thing I think about is where do you hide the rat traps.
the issue with hypothetical projects is this...without classifications, occupancy, square footage, setback requirements, neigboring buildings etc. etc. etc. what can and cannot be done really cannot be determined.
Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is part of the front end. For some of the NYC jobs that included extensive renovations to existing facilities, there was a system in place that forced all the rats to go into the basement where they would be genocided.
This involved planning ahead rat paths of movement.
Glass firestops
This is theoretical-slash-hypothetical and is not situated in any specific area. So, I'm not sure if there is any relevant code information I could find. I also do not have access to an IBC book.
I do know that there are glass and glazing systems that have fire ratings. But can a glass enclosure for means of emergency egress be an acceptable alternative to the standard?
I can illustrate the proposed situation if need be. But basically I have an idea of a generic hallway-and-big-room office building but rather than relying on gypsum board and fluorescent lighting, I'd like to use glass as a partition.
Plausible?
No. The corridor has to be 2 or 3 hour rated and I don't think there's a glass enclosure with that rating. If someone knows otherwise, please do tell! I am curious too.
Aluflame (and I have two other companies but I cant' find where I have them written down) have 120 minute and 180 minute curtainwall systems.
Fireglass (FireLite Plus and FireLite NT) has an approved fire rating of 180 minutes!
Whoops, nevermind. 180 minutes is only in doors. Spoke too soon.
i believe if you are sprinklered and have wired glass you may be able to do it.
there are transparent ceramic and laminated products available - but they are super expensive.
Don't call it firestop. Firestoping refers to through-penetration firestop systems for penetrations through fire-resistance-rated constructions, including both empty openings and openings containing penetrating items.
Now, fire-resistive glazing partitions are possible. As mentioned in here, glazing itself can come with up to 180min ratings. Your glass framing system will have to be made out of insulated steel (as opposed to aluminum). Aluminum does not behave well in fire.
Thus, your overall assembly will be quite expensive.
From my notes: The limiting sizes of wired-glass panels for each fire-protection-rated window are published in the model codes. Maximum sizes for ceramic glass may be greater than wired glass and should be verified with test results from the glass manufacturer. Wired glass may not be permitted where the window is subject to human impact. Interpretation of this requirement is subject to review by authorities having jurisdiction.
Your crusty spec writer.
A & S Window Associates, Inc.
The William Bayley Company
Bliss-Nor Am Windows & Doors
Crittall Windows North America;
The Fox Steel Co.
DV Fyre-Tec, Inc.
Hope’s Windows, Inc.
Optimum Window Manufacturing
Torrance Steel Window Co., Inc.
All of these should be able to manufacture your partition.
dear big boys,
we, cad monkeys, would like to know where in the code a two or three hour partition is required at corridor walls? ibc only requires one hour for unsprinklered and zero hour for sprinklered for type B occupancy as far as i know.
thanks,
won and the chimps
One more question:
Is a three-hour fire rating even necessary if a floor has say 90% transparency? You know, everything except bathrooms and elevator cores being made of glass?
I'm assuming the reason for lengthy fire requirements is that a fire maybe present without detection-- i.e. non-functioning fire alarms and not visible.
But if all the walls are transparent (or at least highly translucent), does one really need 3 hours to evacuate a 'crystal palace?'
3h is reserved for large electrical and mechanical system rooms.
2h is typically for double story atriums and lofts.
"But if all the walls are transparent (or at least highly translucent), does one really need 3 hours to evacuate a 'crystal palace?'"
Oh, boy.
You need to figure out what your occupancy requirements are before you start erecting glass everywhere. Your means of egress (stairs, corridors) will have to be fire protected.An office building with a single occupant per floor can have an unobstructed space. An apartment building will need each unit to be fire protected.
Most states provide their adopted version of the IBC or cities (like nyc. Free on web
I second rustystuds, oh boy...its about occupancy man occupancy and required fire seperations or divisions based on many factors and code definitions.
It can be done and expensive as hell mind you
And to second rustystuds again
Glass firestopping...man I was excited to see a thread on this, but disappointingly NO.
ninjaman: I got all excited about glass firestopping as well. False advertising, money back, etc...
I am actually trying to formulate what that could be in my mind, sounds cool but what is it? And why for?
Maybe we are on to something.
Glass block ish?
More like a series of peepholes that allows you to spy on all your neighbors/professional competitors (and vice versa).
Glass fireproofing is the wikileads of transparency in construction industry.
One key distinction: most of the fire rated glass systems are for "openings" --the code expects that you are building solid walls and the allows a percentage of openings--so if you are doing this check that the system you want to use is rated as a wall.
TGP Glass systems advertises with a big photo of a glass-enclosed stair, so I guess they found someone to approve the type of arrangement you describe.
fire rated peepholes, haha good stuff.
you know if you were Norman Foster you'd get the client to change Japanese building code by doing a full size mock-up with actual tests, just saying. (Century Tower Bunkyo-ku in Tokyo, Japan)
how does that man do it? he'd make glass firestopping work.
I hope this makes sense? My idea was basically to have a large open plan office with a smallish core/staircase.
I know that it will be trick so I wanted to wrap the outside of it with a wide all glass hallway. The exterior facade with single-pane glass and possibly a rainscreen or shutter system (large dashed line). The interior glass wall be a double-pane insulating glazing system (small dashed line).
My idea was to use the hallway as a giant cushion of insulating air while providing egress. I also like to think of it as both a security measure and a cleanliness measure.
The other idea was shifting bulky weight away from the far edges of the building allow me to play more with the interior support structure.
You can see why I want to provide a hallway. I think the people on the far edge of the building are too far away from exits as is.
It doesn't.
The exterior facade with single-pane glass... The interior glass wall be a double-pane insulating glazing system
My head. It hurts.
My idea was to use the hallway as a giant cushion of insulating air while providing egress.
Your entire curtainwall would have to be fire-rated. You just lost your commission.
If you want to design a double curtainwall, that's fine. They are not that uncommon in moderate climates. They can also be very beneficial in terms of ventilation and noise protection. But to use said walls as fire rated egress is crazytown.
I think the people on the far edge of the building are too far away from exits as is.
Either they are or they are not. Pull out your scale and find out. It' not hard.
Even if your curtainwall was rated, this design would still not be up to code due to corridor distances.
this is not how i was taught to draw a floor plan.
Okay. I'll just use fireboard, contractor's special windows, EIFS cladding and slap an ugly staircase on the front of it.
MUCH EASIER.
Peter Eisenman? Is that you?
Secrecy is like banging a prostitute on Kwinter's desk.
Everyone does it and there's a beautiful humanist quality but you never talk about who's stain is who when it comes down to orders, details and hegemony.
Vado I think they are drawing a pretty damn crappy floor plan in InDesign...not even a CAD program...reminds me of grad school, haha. Educating useless dreamers, yay.
Air cushion? What like insulation?
Based on your floor plan, why the corridor? Plenty of open offices that egress into the core of the building, just get rid of the corridor.
Actually nothing you are saying is making. Can I try some?
Vado I think they are drawing a pretty damn crappy floor plan in InDesign...not even a CAD program...reminds me of grad school, haha. Educating useless dreamers, yay.
Air cushion? What like insulation?
Based on your floor plan, why the corridor? Plenty of open offices that egress into the core of the building, just get rid of the corridor.
Actually nothing you are saying is making. Can I try some?
"Based on your floor plan, why the corridor?"
To make the periphery democratic.
To allow people to walk around and survey floors without disrupting others.
Give floor space to yet isolate vegetation which maybe problematic with either infestations or allergies.
survey floors?
Is it.... a sweatshop?
You do mention an infestation (I assume rats).
Haha.
No but a nagging issue in office environments in the surprise boss sweeps. I wanted to isolate them from the general 'work population' when they do their surveying.
The isolated hallway also allows for people to leave the work area and have private phone conversations, person-to-person conversations and other interactions while still being in view.
The infestation part more or less has to do with controlling access corridors to prevent infestations from spiraling out of control. Dividing the hallways from circulation (both air and access) allows one to use pesticides and other control measures without residual risks-- i.e., not spraying actual work areas but only the areas in between work areas.
The other idea was isolating each floor and access to the floors as a means of bedbug management. If one floor has a bed bug infestation, the floor can be sealed off quicker and treated.
And because the demands of all glass partitions and transparency, more work will have to be put into properly integrating electrical, plumbing, telephony and the like. That means there will be less pockets and less cracks for cockroaches, rats, mice and bedbugs from crawling into spreading.
issue in office environments:
surprise boss sweeps
allows one to use pesticides
means of bedbug management
less cracks for cockroaches, rats, mice and bedbugs
Totally serious.
I PREFER TO MICROMANAGE EVERYTHING.
Seriously, when was the last time you've ever heard an architect say the follow phrase:
"This design should successfully discourage cockroach infestations."
It's an entirely important avenue of study. And part of the role of architecture is to protect "inhabitants" from "elements." Why isn't integrated pest management as talked about as "creating space and stirring the soul?"
When I see a hot piece of architecture... one of the firsts thing I think about is where do you hide the rat traps.
Well, if that's the case, I think your floor plan is perfect. Don't even worry about silly building codes.
You're done! Yay.
what are you micromanaging?
why not design the space planning and traffic venues for the cockroaches while you're at it?
I think rats have rights too and you should have a rat fire egress through your glass wall egress.
rustystuds - you have any specs for rat corridors?
the issue with hypothetical projects is this...without classifications, occupancy, square footage, setback requirements, neigboring buildings etc. etc. etc. what can and cannot be done really cannot be determined.
Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is part of the front end. For some of the NYC jobs that included extensive renovations to existing facilities, there was a system in place that forced all the rats to go into the basement where they would be genocided.
This involved planning ahead rat paths of movement.
So, yes. I got a rat corridor spec.
you're officially the man Rusty. saweet.
Most enjoyable thread year 2K10.
rat corridors. what comes around goes roundandround
Heh-heh. Bedbugs in office space ? They only feed on sleeping individuals, in the dark. Some office !
Bedbugs in office space?
More offices see bedbug infestations
It's more than likely.
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