My forecast is that the Chinese economy lags that of the US by about 3 years. So what you will see is the US economy bottom out around 2012 coinciding with the china bubble bursting, after which the US and western economies will see moderate growth up until 2015 while China begins a decline (not forever, just according to cycles).

So if you look at it long term, cultural preferences aside, China will not be the free-for-all it once was. In the past year, I have seen 3 friends make the move to China, and their wages are, although high for China, typically on the low end of US wages, and there is not much potential for wage increases in the near future. Given the relatively low cost of living, you may be able to save a little and pay down some debt, but overall, I would compare it to being cryogenically frozen for a few years because if you decide to return to the US, you'll be in the same place professionally as when you left.

There are no doubt some interesting design firms doing interesting things in China, and some will succeed, but as a whole, the skills and experience you acquire over there will not have much value when you return. Not to say one is superior to the other, but there are huge differences in construction standards (which is like a language), management styles, to even the way clients operate which you will learn to navigate there, but will not have as much value here.

Basically I'm a naysayer, but this is just my opinion.

Again, it will be what you expect to do when you return to the US or Europe.

If you plan to work in a small practice doing McMansions in Mobile, Alabama, you may even freak out them with your Chinese experience.

If you want to work for some corporate or starchitect with interests in the Chinese market (that at the present is 99,99% of them), your Chinese experience will be better than good. Also, it will depend on which kind of office you work in China: foreign corporation with local practice, local starchitect, local shitty corporate stuff, etc.

If you are convinced... go for it.

"If you plan to work in a small practice doing McMansions in Mobile, Alabama, you may even freak out them with your Chinese experience.

If you want to work for some corporate or starchitect with interests in the Chinese market (that at the present is 99,99% of them)"

That really polarizes the profession quite a bit, don't you think?

dont eat the drywall

Don't breathe the air.

Maybe Archinect is blocked in China, which would explain the lack of positive response thus far.

I can offer you some advice from my experience although it maybe a bit dated and relative to Shanghai. I worked in Shanghai in 2006. I had many, many friends during that time that worked in offices in Shanghai from 2005-2008. All of them are back in the States or their respective European countries.

ANSWERS:

Pay - Depends. I worked at a Chinese firm and made roughly $800 a month. Since, China has a low cost of living (or an incredibly high one if you so chose) I was able to live comfortably. Many of my friends worked for American firms and made American salaries (usually $3,000-$4,000) a month. A number of them worked in China solely for the purpose of paying off their student loan debt.

Hours - I worked a strict 9 - 5 workday. We weren't allowed any overtime and they literally asked us to leave if we were still at our desk at 5:10. My team worked one night until 10 pm during my entire tenure there. Many of my friends that worked at American firms didn't put too much overtime in either. Sure, they had normal deadline crunches but those were few and far between.

Living conditions - Again, depends. I was able to afford a nice 600 sq ft apartment in the middle of Shanghai for about $350 a month in a building with primarily all Chinese residents. If you live in an apartment complex intended for Westerners, you will pay a ridiculous amount. Some firms will pay for your housing (usually single-occupancy).

Experience - Working in China was a great cultural experience, but hardly a good work experience. My work experience (and many of my friends) was much less lackluster. I moved to Shanghai directly after undergrad and with no idea how to build a building. I left Shanghai a year later with still no clue how to build a building. We primarily worked on very preliminary schematic design. We'd work on some floor plans, make a SketchUp model, and have an out-of-house company render our idea. We'd present it to the client, then never see the project again. Engineers have a heavy role in the construction document process with little help from architects. It was a great experience, and I valued my time there, but I did not feel much different from an academic studio in many respects. With that said, I wouldn't return to China to work again. I don't think it will further help me professionally, although I am very grateful that I went. Side note: having my Shanghai experience on my resume made me a very desirable candidate when I returned to the States. Many interviewers seemed really fascinated with the experience so it was a plus when I returned.

3d Rendering - It seems that many firms only do rough 3d models, then send them to rendering farms because the turnover is so quick and it's usually less expensive to pay a rendering farm than to have your own employees rendering. If you do work in China, I highly recommend taking a trip to see a rendering farm. It's crazy. Rows and rows and rows of people behind their computers, smoking up a storm, dead silence, and all the lights turned off. I went to a number of them and I asked why the lights were always turned off. They said that they work in 3 shifts throughout the day, so the daylight was a constant reminder of how much time they had left to finish a project.

If you have more questions, I'd be happy to help.

I think that if China continues to artificially devalue its currency [and it's highly likely it will], then the Chinese economy will more or less stay status quo: steady growth with the average Chinese citizen staying put whilst the aristocracy [and there is one] grows richer. The government runs the country like a gigantic corporation. I don't see the Chinese economy faltering in the same way the US economy did.

Therefore, I don't think you've missed the boat at all. I also think that having a Western education and actually being a Western ethnicity [don't know if you are, not presuming anything] is very much still in vogue there. So I think there are opportunities.

That said, I do think it's a cultural leap. Sure, you can find coffee and OJ in Beijing or Shanghai, but it's ludicriously expensive. Also, I've been told if you're going over there you should make a commitment to learn Mandarin, otherwise you will be taken advantage of.

In regards to work environment, I think it depends on the firm. If you're with a Western satelite office, I think you can expect Western ideology towards work. If you're with a local firm, I've heard you can expect an Eastern standpoint. Some firms are [what I would consider] 'normal', and some firms are [what I would consider] 'sweatshops'.

Be that as it may, I think that building experience is building experience and in an increasingly small world, it's extremely valuable. Perhaps you might gain some good experience faster than your peers in the US or Europe and then be able to shoot for a better job in Paris or Chicago [let's say] in 5 years.

Or, there's, of course, the possibilty that you might fall in love with the place.

I would like to second n_'s experience as it largely mirrors mine except with a few differences. My hours were roughly the same as a normal small design firm, anywhere between 40-80 depending on the week. A few friends I have working there now say they work harder than they ever have though, and do not like it for the most part. They work for small, semi-famous design firms I wont name.

Unlike, n_ however, I have never had a potential employer be in any way at all interested in my work experience in China. As he said, the actual process is very different there, and doing CDs in a design office is almost unheard of. They are farmed out to large state-run agencies for the most part. In some ways its the dream right? You do what you always dreamed architects do, rock out sketches and basic ideas and everyone else fills in the rest. That said, it totally wont help you be an architect anywhere else, and its basically school-squared.

A note on arch. salaries in china: they will be more "free-market" than your are comfortable with. If you are an experienced architect with connections, you can be paid a western wage and live like a king. If you are young and replaceable, you will be paid enough to live on (in china), but basically dirt. This used to enrage me, but Ive seen enough people work for -free- in the states now that I don't know what to think. You'd better believe wed pay our interns $2/hr in the states too if we could.

If you are young, can use rhino, and have a decent portfolio, firms will hire you for sure (for very little). Considering all you have posted about your employment situation recently, maybe its time to consider it.

Having said all that, I really enjoyed it there. If you have or make friends who speak chinese there it can really be a lot of fun. I wouldn't go back though, unless it was to start my own firm.

it can get pretty bad.

but the food is delicious.

just be prepared to be given waaaaay more responsibility than you'd expect.

I currently work in Beijing for a fairly large Canadian firm (mostly in naming and tax rights). My experience is also very similar to n_'s. However, I do get to design and we do a lot of the renderings in house. We only use the rendering sweat shops when we really have to or want to make some cheesy movie about what ever new project will be the center of the new China. If you have ever seen a crystal CG movie they are pretty much carbon copies of each other with whatever project you are currently hawking dropped in. Anyways my biggest concern is not learning anything new. I have some knowledge of how to detail and put a building together but it is never used in China they could care less. You design something in a couple weeks it gets approved and then god knows where it goes. The design architect and project architect probably talk to each other a handful of times and that is it. My company has a "A" license which allows them to build which is even more ironic. The design architects and teams are on one floor and the project architects CD production is on another. Much like the rendering the "creative" side of the profession is completely removed from the "production side". Further more most of what is designed is to bid on the land from the government and rarely if ever gets built as designed. Because of corruption Developers have to hire several architects that "bid" and then the developer picks one or two in which to show the government. If they actually already have the land then it usually starts all over with you getting the bid that one the land as reference. Every firm in China plays the game this way.

I would say the positives of working here are the number and variety of design problems one must quickly deal with, the speed in which things happen and of course the culture. I for one am happy to have a job and believe that this is worth while for the time being. There are a ton of firms doing work in China whether locally or from abroad and I've only been seeing this growing. Further more, as much as people speculate on a supposed Bubble everything I've seen shows nothing of the sort in the next couple of years. Beijing, Shanghai Guangzhou have slowed a bit but tier 2 and 3 cities are building like gang busters. I'm currently doing projects in Taiyuan and Shenyang and it is really madness. The municipal government has had to put restrictions in place in Shanghai to slow "growth". but the big question is how "real" is this growth. However, given the differences in the way things are paid for and developed (you have to put down between 30-50%) I am not too worried as of yet. The other benefit is I have made way more money than I ever expected. I get payed very well considering I am in China and due to the cost of living I have been able to save more than half of what I've made. For better or worse it is great waking up every morning with out any financial strain.

Also client meetings and dinners are second to none. There is nothing better than after a morning meeting with client, going on a site visit, having a huge dinner with plenty of booze and then going to KTV till midnight. It can be a lot of fun.


I think there are opportunities to make good money and work on decent project and like any job in the states you just have to sell yourself.

Wow, this is an interesting thread and some great insight. I also lived in Shanghai working as an architect from 2004-2006. Although there were ups and downs, as always, in general it was a great experience and not one I would ever regret. The descriptions above are all pretty accurate. I worked for an American corporate office for about a year as an intern. Hours were strictly 9-5 with the occasional deadline crunch and every once in a while a travel obligation - which was fun.

i then left the company and worked for a medium to small boutique architecture studio. Hours were worse 50-60 or more hours a week and pay was much less but then again the projects were more interesting. As mentioned by a few others above, it was mostly schematic design experience. We did a little design development but all the construction documents and stuff was done by the state run design institutes (although I don't believe they are all state run anymore). This was kind of a cool experience as we would design a project in small teams over three weeks or so, submit the designs and then start on a new project. The speed and turnover of projects was a lot of fun, although a lot of ideas never got developed to their full potential. Either way it was fun and a great experience regardless of whether that translates back to practicing in the US.

I would highly recommend going. You will learn about a new culture, get to work as an architect, earn a little bit of money, and most importantly get to travel around China and Asia which is spectacular.

I find it interesting that most of the people here who working in Asia have said they wouldn't go back. I'm in that boat too. But it was great while I was there.

Currently working in Shanghai. Been here 6 months. No time to reply.
Try it and see.

This China thing is not going to last forever, they are over-building their cities, they are even greedier then the wall-streeters, they are gonna have a massive bubble burst, that will sink our whole world economy to the middle ages! Its coming soon, so better go somewhere quite and live in a small little town away from all this madness.

zen: Everyone says this but have there been actual conclusive studies? I think that people see all these uninhabited buildings being built in china and the instinct is: "giant bubble", but the situation is so much different in China than in the US. There is an insatiable demand from the villages to move to the city, which is completely unlike the western situation. As jobs are created in the cities, more and more people from the villages move in and fill out these residential complexes. Until western companies stop investing in china, I don't see a reason for developers to stop developing. I have never read a real study on it either way though, only mass speculation from western expats and economists (and do we really trust economists to speculate at all anymore).

think BRIC

cherith, i have been doing my internship in china for almost 9 months now. I am currently in Shanghai working in a young medium-sized firm. After obtaining my bachelors from melbourne and after hearing about the number of opportunites in China, I decided to first head to Beijing after being offered an internship position. I am Malaysian Chinese by the way. My employers then were Chinese and were Ivy-educated. I previously had no working experience, so being in China for the first time was kinda intimidatingm but being bilingual helped. I worked in Beijing for a short while, 6 months and I must say that it was exciting albeit short. I was surprised by the number of projects that ran at the same time and because of that I had the opportunity to be part of different scale projects and work in different teams in that short period. Some may say sticking in one project all the way through is more fruitful than dabbling in couple of projects but at various stages. It may be true to an extent, but at this stage as an intern and yet to complete my studies, being able to experiment abit of everything is beneficial ranging from masterplannning projects for mixed-use developments up to 350,000 sqm to a 15,000sqm exhibition centre. China is where land is abundant and where there are constantly demands for various developments especially in emerging neighbouring cities like Tianjin, Changchun, Suzhou, Wuhan, Shenzhen etc.

I looked at Shanghai and decided to head over there to continue my internship with a different firm in a more urban environment compared to the slightly conservative beijing. Shanghai is obviously not as authentic as Beijing in terms of chinese culture but the harmonious amalgmation of all the various architectural styles have given shanghai so much more depth and appeal to foreigners. Its proximity to Hong Kong and Taiwan and the southern part of China which is undeniably growing rapidlly creates even more opportunities and networks.

We all know that there are many foreign offices here in China, some even starchitects. At first, I was also hoping to get a position in a starchitect firm as I believe that there are more openings here in China. But nevertheless, after being here for quite sometime , I start to realize that there are many chinese architects who study in top schools abroad and finally return to their home country, and these architects like ma qingyun, wang shu and artist/architect aiweiwei who have pioneered "chinese contemporary architecture" with little to none reference to the familiar signatures of west startchitects like rem, zaha or holl. These up and coming architects are testament to what chinese architecture are heading, merging new ideas and materials, but with underlying centuries-old oriental architecture principles, unique to China. I question myself, this is what I should be learning and observing in China if I do choose to work here; not to just strive to win a spot with a top foreign firm with a string of projects here in China, which in fact could also be built anywhere else in the world i fnot for the recession. Foreign architects treat China like their experimental playground, testing new and daring concepts but often neglect good execution. ( i have been to the linked hybrid, and boy the construction materials and finishes were disastrous, no, u wouldnt realize it through the hyped visuals on magazines).

Another thing about working in China, is that time is gold. Clients want their visions built asap and revenues spilling in soon after. Hence, datelines are always tight. Concept stage could go pass in 2-3days and then boom construction commence after a month of winning the project. Money wise, not too worry, foreigners will be given sufficent salary for a comfortable apartment and life. Don;t expect luxury unless u get paid in the firm's home country currency. But be warned of the working hours here. Overtime is VERY common and it could happen in weeks back-to-back when it comes to datelines.

So to work and live in China, I believe is to understand its own authentic architecture and culture and to be able to contribute to its own identity.It will be questionable to come to China, and to work in a foreign firm within a foreign environment but yet on Chinese soil, and have no interest at all on what China really has to offer other than lots of land, a booming economy and a long list of rich clients.

do it...draft dodger

You don't necessarily have to go to China. It is not just about getting a salary.You need to like the place you're living in. You need to get along with the society and be comfortable in their culture. If you don't enjoy it it will be torturous.There are many countries in the world which are doing much better than the US right now.Just sayin'.

Totally agree with Parad0xx86.

Just go to China if you "believe" in Chinese culture/business/work ethics. Otherwise you will be un unhappy Western critizing everything there, and more sooner than later you will leave the country.

There are tons of countries doing pretty well now. If I can, I would travel to the countries I am interested before getting a job, so I can have a "feeling" of the place.