We've all encountered this in our pursuit for employment - the corporate career board that requires you to submit your resume and application via an automated, fill-in-the-blanks system that you can use to apply for any and every position said company has available. Even some of the smaller, less corporate offices have adopted said system if only to filter and auto-response the literally hundreds of applications they receive (mostly from me).
On one hand, it's really no different than cold-emailing your application to the careers@, info@, jobs@ or any number of something@ addresses that the smaller offices employ, however the idea that at least an actual person will likely see my email at the smaller offices gives me slightly more hope of getting an actual response.
So, what I am interested in hearing from is if people ACTUAL get jobs out of simply submitting a resume to the corporate career job board OR did you have to do something beyond that, like bucking the system and emailing the office directly? physical mail? random choosing principals and partners from the corporate directory?
Personally I tried both ways..sending resumes to info@..... emails and sending resumes directly to the principals or hiring managers.I haven't gotten 1 reply either way.
I heard back from one of the offices you mentioned there. I sent my application via careers@. It took them 2 1/2 months to get back to me. Then I never heard from them again. I called their HR dept. a few weeks later. HR person promised to look into it. She got back to me telling me the initial contact process is still ongoing and it may take a few more months before the second stage (actual interviews) start.
Whatever interviews I had in the last year were of the delayed variety.ie. they call you back at the exact moment you've forgotten you even applied there.
This is something I've spent a lot of time actually researching. And I have no quantifiable experience in proving or disproving any of this information. So, interpret how you will.
When it comes to automated HR systems-- you really need to focus on what is known as "resume parsing" and there's two main contenders: Peoplesoft (known Oracle) and Sovren.
A resume parser pretty much takes you resume and scans it for competency (i.e., like a computerized "what is your reading level test), synonyms relating to the job, the stability of your job history and then sometimes compares that data with a database.
Your bigger companies will often verify your information with the Acxiom worldwide database. Hello, terrifying big brother!
Essentially, these parsing and verification software packages will blacklist an inconsistent or false resume. Once blacklisted, your applications and resumes will no longer be processed by the system. This gets even worse when companies use a software company intermediary who maintains data on their servers and not the hiring company servers.
Basically, one lie or one embellishment can blacklist you from being able to apply to multiple companies.
Aside from this, each individual HR software packages has their own method of operation-- some are really glorified versions of Outlook combined with Dreamweaver and others are total systems.
I applied to a position with corporate once and called back only to get the same response "We are still looking into it". Few months later I got hired with a staffing agency to the same firm and one month later I got hired by the firm full time, buying out the contract from the staffing agency.
Long story short, I ended up dating the person who answered my call months before and asked her if she remembered me and she said yes, but she also said that when she told me that they are looking into it, she knew that they weren't going to hire me, because they had so many recommended architects already.
We are married now and I still give her shit about it.
Kohn Pederson Fox is preparing to make around 45 redundancies at its London office.
The New York-based practice, which ranked as the 63rd largest in the world in BD’s 2010 World Architecture Top 100 survey, currently employs 150 people in London.
A spokeswoman for KPF said: “In response to the economic downturn, we are reviewing business efficiencies globally and are considering what is required by the current market to ensure the practice is best positioned to work through the recession. Based on this we have begun a consultation process with our staff in London. KPF continues to be a global business leader and we are hopeful that the European economy will improve shortly.”
The practice is currently in consultation with the staff concerned.
None of the company’s other offices, which include outposts in Shanghai and Hong Kong, are affected.
Nope. Just using KPF as an example of offices that use the system.
@steelstuds: I've had the same experience. When I finally get a call from an office about my application, it's been well over 3-4 months when I last sent it. Considering how many resumes I've been sending out lately, I rarely remember anything about the office, let alone what city they are located in and I usually need to make some small talk to buy time until I can open their website.
The Sovren .pdf is amusing, but hard to take seriously, considering the whole "avoid buzz-words" is exactly what the automated systems are looking for on your resume.
I'm almost to the point of just emailing principals and partners directly, or LinkedIn researching for the HR person and emailing them as well. I figure I have nothing to lose at this point.
In my experience, snail mail is the way to go... I wouldn't email...
Snail mail something of quality, invest in some color prints as needed... Make it nice up front, and then invest about $200 in prints, say a box of them... Its worth it... Spend the time attending to the details of the snail mailed package, reread and edit up front to make sure it looks professional, looks and reads well, and send and address to the right people, depends on the office... I think even at large firms, this works... If the person making a hiring decision gets a resume and samples on his/her desk addressed to him/her, or if he/she hears about somebody through a referral, he/she is more likely to look at it and invite for an interview. The computer system in large firms then, is required protocol...
Once interviewed, I think if the Principal or Manager or whoever then wanted to hire, they would just ask the candidate to post their application to the online form, if the candidate had not already done so...
I think it very important to keep your expectations firmly grounded in reality. Very few firms are doing much hiring right now. Just because a firm has a web location where you can deposit your credentials doesn't mean that firm is going to drop everything they're doing to respond instantaneously to your inquiry. Moreover, doing an end-run around a firm's established procedure may help you get noticed, but not necessarily in a good way.
All firms - and especially the well known firms - are inundated by unsolicited resumes right now. The fact that you really need or want a job doesn't change a particular firm's reality. They can only hire you if they have an active job opening. You should focus your efforts on identifying those firms where an opening actually exists and not invest much of your efforts, and frustrations, on firms that have no current ability to hire.
In my experience, networking still is the most effective way to identify potential openings. While using a shotgun approach to apply at a lot of firms has the feeling of forward motion, most of that motion is ineffective and a waste of your time, and a waste of time for firms that have no ability to provide you a job.
Look, I know the opportunities in Architecture right now are slim and the likelihood that I will ever get a job are dimensioning everyday. The longer the gap in my employment becomes, the more undesirable a candidate I am. Networking, at this stage, seems trite at best, as most people are still doing everything they can to hold onto the job they have and are not particularly interested in risking it, nor do they want to damage their own network of potential back-up jobs. Regardless, I am also interested in relocating for a position, as the market where I currently not only is demolished, but is also not a place I was interested in working anyway and was only a product of moving home to save money.
My feeling on the matter is that because offices are receiving so many unsolicited resumes, they have no need to advertise if/when they are hiring. The few things that do make it to the job board are generally for high-experience/specialized skills that may/may not readily show up unsolicited. For people like me, that have enough experience to not be entry level, but not enough to fully run projects- offices already get enough of these resumes without an ad to hire as needed. If I wait for an actual job post, there will be hundreds more additional resumes. So I figure, I can't beat the system, so I will just participate. Sure it means sending out hundreds of resumes that will receive little, if any, response, but at this stage I am numb to the feeling of dismissal and rejection. All I can do is hope for the best that just one will result in something.
Cherith, you're becoming tedious. Spreading your misery here isn't going to help either you or any other archinctors. You ask for advice. If you don't want to listen to well intentioned advice, that's your choice. But, what's the point of a public wallowing in your personal misery?
@babs - I think "public wallowing" is providing a public service to all those college students who are thinking about a career in architecture. Maybe they'll read these boards and make a smarter decision as to what to do with their lives.
Cherith, perhaps you just need to try harder. There are jobs and someone has to get them.
Also, dismissing networking as trite cuts your chances of getting a job to literally 1/10th of what it would be otherwise.
If you need someone to convince yourself that failure is ok, there are many people who can help you with that also. You should have a lot of doubt about your own perceptions of your situation, especially the negative ones. They most likely are wrong.
trying harder maybe isn't the solution. trying better, being more strategic, may be...quality over quantity!
i have to second/third all of those in favor of networking. cherith, really! if people meet you and like you, they generally want to help. of the 10 interviews i've had in the past year, 7 came through some sort of connection (and the only 3 maybes coming up? all through connections).
these connections aren't necessarily where you think you'll find them, either. yeah going to networking events sort of sucks and is uncomfortable. former classmates/alums from your school might have some ideas, but you never know who the father of your little sister's best friend knows.
I'm not saying that networking isn't the answer, I'm saying that where I am currently located at, I don't see networking helping.
A: I didn't go to school here, so all of my "education" networking is now out-of-state. Plus I've already exhausted that resource. Didn't help that most of the instructors at said school's "practices" are essentially an extension of school, i.e. little to no pay, little to no real projects. Great experience during school, but I am looking for something more substantial now.
B: Everyone I went to school with is doing the best they can to hold onto the jobs they have, which doesn't put them in a position to help someone else get a job. Most are looking for something better.
C: The market here is both small and decimated. Unquestionably most offices have cut down to 4 days a week. The largest office in town is doing a re-roofing project. I don't foresee that they are actively hiring. Also the market here is almost exclusively local, so there isn't the possibility of transferring via getting a job here and moving within the company.
D: I don't really no any other networking options. I guess I could go crash AIA luncheons or something, but given point C, it seems like a futile effort. Networking, in my mind, works best when there is an actual network, not just the 3 or 4 offices in town and nothing else.
This my archinect friends, is the honest truth and if it comes across as "tedious" than I am sorry. Once you have been unemployed for well over 1.5 years, you start investigating any and all possible barriers to entry. I see automated applications as one such barrier.
At any rate, this has all really derailed from the original intent, which was to a discussion about automated application systems and if people actually got interviews out of them. I'm actually overall interested in hearing about what barriers people had to cross in-order to find jobs, because the old system of answering to want ads is clearly non-existent.
I'll try to add some productive advice to this thread...
Cherith, when you talk of big corporate offices, make sure you don't just limit yourself to just purely arch. ones (ie. KPF, SOM,etc..) Think of your AECOMs and SHAWs.
Here is a list of top 500 "Design" Firms . List is dominated by engineering firms, but they provide plenty of arch. opportunities as well. If you visit individual websites of these companies, you will find quite a number of positions that would be ideal for your level of experience. I think recent grads or designers with limited work experience tend to shy away from these types of firms. Not as glamorous perhaps?
You are willing to relocate anywhere. Seriously look up positions with these firms. They are big enough to understand that moving for a position is a common thing that's done all the time (to tie it into your other thread).
Thanks rusty. I've have noticed lately that a number of offices have been bought up by HDR, Stantec and AECOM lately. Before too long we might all be working for the same 3 offices.
I don't think your starchitects and boutiques are of any interest to your Stantecs, but middle of the road firms tend to get in the way of big boys and buyout is the best way to get rid of them. Assimilate citiz err architect!
That's my dream in architecture: have a crappy company that underbids on all kinds of small public works projects and eventually gets bought out.
I think discourse on archinect would be kind of fun if we all worked for same 3 firms. Thread of the day: "There's free donuts on 3rd floor next to fat Mike's desk"
True. The day that Zaha and Stantec set up a meeting to working out the merger details is probably also the same day that giant asteroid or floor or whatever happens that destroys the entire world.
I'm starting to wonder if I just showed up at one of the big corporates on a Monday morning, introduced myself to the receptionist as the new hire and made some vague reference about being hired for their new school/hospital/civic project, if I could just hire myself? Maybe if you work like gangbusters the first few days, even if they realized that were not hired, they might just keep you on.
I don't see it working, but it's fun to imagine.
Nov 13, 10 10:20 pm ·
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Corporate Job Applications - Do they produce results?
SOM
KPF
Gensler
We've all encountered this in our pursuit for employment - the corporate career board that requires you to submit your resume and application via an automated, fill-in-the-blanks system that you can use to apply for any and every position said company has available. Even some of the smaller, less corporate offices have adopted said system if only to filter and auto-response the literally hundreds of applications they receive (mostly from me).
On one hand, it's really no different than cold-emailing your application to the careers@, info@, jobs@ or any number of something@ addresses that the smaller offices employ, however the idea that at least an actual person will likely see my email at the smaller offices gives me slightly more hope of getting an actual response.
So, what I am interested in hearing from is if people ACTUAL get jobs out of simply submitting a resume to the corporate career job board OR did you have to do something beyond that, like bucking the system and emailing the office directly? physical mail? random choosing principals and partners from the corporate directory?
Personally I tried both ways..sending resumes to info@..... emails and sending resumes directly to the principals or hiring managers.I haven't gotten 1 reply either way.
I heard back from one of the offices you mentioned there. I sent my application via careers@. It took them 2 1/2 months to get back to me. Then I never heard from them again. I called their HR dept. a few weeks later. HR person promised to look into it. She got back to me telling me the initial contact process is still ongoing and it may take a few more months before the second stage (actual interviews) start.
Whatever interviews I had in the last year were of the delayed variety.ie. they call you back at the exact moment you've forgotten you even applied there.
This is something I've spent a lot of time actually researching. And I have no quantifiable experience in proving or disproving any of this information. So, interpret how you will.
When it comes to automated HR systems-- you really need to focus on what is known as "resume parsing" and there's two main contenders: Peoplesoft (known Oracle) and Sovren.
A resume parser pretty much takes you resume and scans it for competency (i.e., like a computerized "what is your reading level test), synonyms relating to the job, the stability of your job history and then sometimes compares that data with a database.
Your bigger companies will often verify your information with the Acxiom worldwide database. Hello, terrifying big brother!
Essentially, these parsing and verification software packages will blacklist an inconsistent or false resume. Once blacklisted, your applications and resumes will no longer be processed by the system. This gets even worse when companies use a software company intermediary who maintains data on their servers and not the hiring company servers.
Basically, one lie or one embellishment can blacklist you from being able to apply to multiple companies.
Aside from this, each individual HR software packages has their own method of operation-- some are really glorified versions of Outlook combined with Dreamweaver and others are total systems.
Silkroad, one of the better HR packages, gives you a full video of how the software works from both sides.
And, luckily, Sovren, one of the leading resume parsing software companies, actually has a conscious.
Here's a PDF for the Sovren corporation about how to "cheat" a parsing system. here
I applied to a position with corporate once and called back only to get the same response "We are still looking into it". Few months later I got hired with a staffing agency to the same firm and one month later I got hired by the firm full time, buying out the contract from the staffing agency.
Long story short, I ended up dating the person who answered my call months before and asked her if she remembered me and she said yes, but she also said that when she told me that they are looking into it, she knew that they weren't going to hire me, because they had so many recommended architects already.
We are married now and I still give her shit about it.
I hope you haven't applied to KPF London...
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/uk/kpf-to-lose-a-third-of-london-staff/5008964.article
KPF to lose a third of London staff
11 November 2010 | By Anna Winston
Kohn Pederson Fox is preparing to make around 45 redundancies at its London office.
The New York-based practice, which ranked as the 63rd largest in the world in BD’s 2010 World Architecture Top 100 survey, currently employs 150 people in London.
A spokeswoman for KPF said: “In response to the economic downturn, we are reviewing business efficiencies globally and are considering what is required by the current market to ensure the practice is best positioned to work through the recession. Based on this we have begun a consultation process with our staff in London. KPF continues to be a global business leader and we are hopeful that the European economy will improve shortly.”
The practice is currently in consultation with the staff concerned.
None of the company’s other offices, which include outposts in Shanghai and Hong Kong, are affected.
Nope. Just using KPF as an example of offices that use the system.
@steelstuds: I've had the same experience. When I finally get a call from an office about my application, it's been well over 3-4 months when I last sent it. Considering how many resumes I've been sending out lately, I rarely remember anything about the office, let alone what city they are located in and I usually need to make some small talk to buy time until I can open their website.
The Sovren .pdf is amusing, but hard to take seriously, considering the whole "avoid buzz-words" is exactly what the automated systems are looking for on your resume.
I'm almost to the point of just emailing principals and partners directly, or LinkedIn researching for the HR person and emailing them as well. I figure I have nothing to lose at this point.
Cherith:
In my experience, snail mail is the way to go... I wouldn't email...
Snail mail something of quality, invest in some color prints as needed... Make it nice up front, and then invest about $200 in prints, say a box of them... Its worth it... Spend the time attending to the details of the snail mailed package, reread and edit up front to make sure it looks professional, looks and reads well, and send and address to the right people, depends on the office... I think even at large firms, this works... If the person making a hiring decision gets a resume and samples on his/her desk addressed to him/her, or if he/she hears about somebody through a referral, he/she is more likely to look at it and invite for an interview. The computer system in large firms then, is required protocol...
Once interviewed, I think if the Principal or Manager or whoever then wanted to hire, they would just ask the candidate to post their application to the online form, if the candidate had not already done so...
Unicorn, you're the greatest!
I think it very important to keep your expectations firmly grounded in reality. Very few firms are doing much hiring right now. Just because a firm has a web location where you can deposit your credentials doesn't mean that firm is going to drop everything they're doing to respond instantaneously to your inquiry. Moreover, doing an end-run around a firm's established procedure may help you get noticed, but not necessarily in a good way.
All firms - and especially the well known firms - are inundated by unsolicited resumes right now. The fact that you really need or want a job doesn't change a particular firm's reality. They can only hire you if they have an active job opening. You should focus your efforts on identifying those firms where an opening actually exists and not invest much of your efforts, and frustrations, on firms that have no current ability to hire.
In my experience, networking still is the most effective way to identify potential openings. While using a shotgun approach to apply at a lot of firms has the feeling of forward motion, most of that motion is ineffective and a waste of your time, and a waste of time for firms that have no ability to provide you a job.
Just my $.02
Look, I know the opportunities in Architecture right now are slim and the likelihood that I will ever get a job are dimensioning everyday. The longer the gap in my employment becomes, the more undesirable a candidate I am. Networking, at this stage, seems trite at best, as most people are still doing everything they can to hold onto the job they have and are not particularly interested in risking it, nor do they want to damage their own network of potential back-up jobs. Regardless, I am also interested in relocating for a position, as the market where I currently not only is demolished, but is also not a place I was interested in working anyway and was only a product of moving home to save money.
My feeling on the matter is that because offices are receiving so many unsolicited resumes, they have no need to advertise if/when they are hiring. The few things that do make it to the job board are generally for high-experience/specialized skills that may/may not readily show up unsolicited. For people like me, that have enough experience to not be entry level, but not enough to fully run projects- offices already get enough of these resumes without an ad to hire as needed. If I wait for an actual job post, there will be hundreds more additional resumes. So I figure, I can't beat the system, so I will just participate. Sure it means sending out hundreds of resumes that will receive little, if any, response, but at this stage I am numb to the feeling of dismissal and rejection. All I can do is hope for the best that just one will result in something.
Cherith, you're becoming tedious. Spreading your misery here isn't going to help either you or any other archinctors. You ask for advice. If you don't want to listen to well intentioned advice, that's your choice. But, what's the point of a public wallowing in your personal misery?
@babs - I think "public wallowing" is providing a public service to all those college students who are thinking about a career in architecture. Maybe they'll read these boards and make a smarter decision as to what to do with their lives.
@babs- and what exactly are you contributing to this discussion?
Cherith, perhaps you just need to try harder. There are jobs and someone has to get them.
Also, dismissing networking as trite cuts your chances of getting a job to literally 1/10th of what it would be otherwise.
If you need someone to convince yourself that failure is ok, there are many people who can help you with that also. You should have a lot of doubt about your own perceptions of your situation, especially the negative ones. They most likely are wrong.
trying harder maybe isn't the solution. trying better, being more strategic, may be...quality over quantity!
i have to second/third all of those in favor of networking. cherith, really! if people meet you and like you, they generally want to help. of the 10 interviews i've had in the past year, 7 came through some sort of connection (and the only 3 maybes coming up? all through connections).
these connections aren't necessarily where you think you'll find them, either. yeah going to networking events sort of sucks and is uncomfortable. former classmates/alums from your school might have some ideas, but you never know who the father of your little sister's best friend knows.
I'm not saying that networking isn't the answer, I'm saying that where I am currently located at, I don't see networking helping.
A: I didn't go to school here, so all of my "education" networking is now out-of-state. Plus I've already exhausted that resource. Didn't help that most of the instructors at said school's "practices" are essentially an extension of school, i.e. little to no pay, little to no real projects. Great experience during school, but I am looking for something more substantial now.
B: Everyone I went to school with is doing the best they can to hold onto the jobs they have, which doesn't put them in a position to help someone else get a job. Most are looking for something better.
C: The market here is both small and decimated. Unquestionably most offices have cut down to 4 days a week. The largest office in town is doing a re-roofing project. I don't foresee that they are actively hiring. Also the market here is almost exclusively local, so there isn't the possibility of transferring via getting a job here and moving within the company.
D: I don't really no any other networking options. I guess I could go crash AIA luncheons or something, but given point C, it seems like a futile effort. Networking, in my mind, works best when there is an actual network, not just the 3 or 4 offices in town and nothing else.
This my archinect friends, is the honest truth and if it comes across as "tedious" than I am sorry. Once you have been unemployed for well over 1.5 years, you start investigating any and all possible barriers to entry. I see automated applications as one such barrier.
At any rate, this has all really derailed from the original intent, which was to a discussion about automated application systems and if people actually got interviews out of them. I'm actually overall interested in hearing about what barriers people had to cross in-order to find jobs, because the old system of answering to want ads is clearly non-existent.
I'll try to add some productive advice to this thread...
Cherith, when you talk of big corporate offices, make sure you don't just limit yourself to just purely arch. ones (ie. KPF, SOM,etc..) Think of your AECOMs and SHAWs.
Here is a list of top 500 "Design" Firms . List is dominated by engineering firms, but they provide plenty of arch. opportunities as well. If you visit individual websites of these companies, you will find quite a number of positions that would be ideal for your level of experience. I think recent grads or designers with limited work experience tend to shy away from these types of firms. Not as glamorous perhaps?
You are willing to relocate anywhere. Seriously look up positions with these firms. They are big enough to understand that moving for a position is a common thing that's done all the time (to tie it into your other thread).
Thanks rusty. I've have noticed lately that a number of offices have been bought up by HDR, Stantec and AECOM lately. Before too long we might all be working for the same 3 offices.
in which case, I better get started working my down this list
I don't think your starchitects and boutiques are of any interest to your Stantecs, but middle of the road firms tend to get in the way of big boys and buyout is the best way to get rid of them. Assimilate citiz err architect!
That's my dream in architecture: have a crappy company that underbids on all kinds of small public works projects and eventually gets bought out.
I think discourse on archinect would be kind of fun if we all worked for same 3 firms. Thread of the day: "There's free donuts on 3rd floor next to fat Mike's desk"
True. The day that Zaha and Stantec set up a meeting to working out the merger details is probably also the same day that giant asteroid or floor or whatever happens that destroys the entire world.
I'm starting to wonder if I just showed up at one of the big corporates on a Monday morning, introduced myself to the receptionist as the new hire and made some vague reference about being hired for their new school/hospital/civic project, if I could just hire myself? Maybe if you work like gangbusters the first few days, even if they realized that were not hired, they might just keep you on.
I don't see it working, but it's fun to imagine.
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