Recent grad, One summer intern experience. 35k offer in the bag. But the job isnt terrific. I have a 50/50 chance at getting an offer with a better firm at around 40k but it would probably mean passing up on the sure offer.
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush? Or is 35k low enough that I will find something else comparable in case the better job doesnt come through. Thanks.
im not sure where youre living, but for the midwest, including the larger cities, that would be a pretty standard mid/low offer. Its not a great offer, its probably not even an average offer, but its not a ridiculous offer. In this economy, take the job you know you can have.... you can worry about making up that extra 5k when there are more jobs and you have more experience
lletdownl: so even in this bad market, 35k jobs are pretty hard to come by? I have only interviewed at 2 firms period. The first is the one to offer me the job and I have had 2 interviews at the better firm that I would prefer. Maybe I have just been lucky in contacting the right firms...
I know people in metro areas with WAY higher costs of living that are currently making WAY less than $35k and they have experience.
Considering you have what sounds like no to very little experience, 35k is actually really good, esp. in the Denver area where the cost of living is pretty low. I've only ever made slightly more than that and I have 4+ years of experience. Add to that the current job climate... you would be a fool to turn down this offer. Of course, you have to factor what your living expenses are and make sure this will pay the bills, but honestly I doubt you will do much better. Consider yourself lucky that you actually got an interview and an offer... I have been waiting for that day for over a year now.
What you can do is contact the second firm and tell them a competing office has made you an offer, however you would prefer to work for them. See if they bite and offer you something equal to or more than the first office. Again, being someone new to the profession, any experience will be good experience, so I wouldn't get to concerned about "better offices" unless the first office has management problems or something.
bleh, each city really is different... 35k jobs are hard to come by in lots of places these days and im not too familiar with Denvers current job market for architects. Just be aware that there are parts of this country were unemployment rates amongst architects are still double the general unemployment rate. So... that being said, dont take your offers for granted. if you have the money to wait for a better offer, you can do that, but just keep in mind that we are still in a depressed market, and you might be better served long term by taking 35k, and getting your work experience under way ASAP.
It seems your on the up-and-up. Pulling in that kind of money in this economy? Judging by the amount of amount of yellow and blue paper bills you're pulling in, I have three wonderful houses on two properties just for you!
You have a choice either between States Avenue and Virginia Avenue! Its your choice-- but a forewarning, the option is a bit of a Scylla and Charybdis.
Or should I say, between a railroad and the electric company!
Just curious where you found these job listings? The Archinect job board is great but I also know it's getting more action than a cheap hotel room mattress. Craigslist ads are always so elusive it's difficult to take any of them seriously, and after that you are left with Monster.com (and related sites) that assume by 'architect' you must surely mean 'systems architects', 'solutions architect', or any other array of non-architecture related careers. Aside from working the AIA directory top to bottom, I am not really sure where the job listings are hiding out these days.
Maybe all the firms are holding out for Archinect 3.0.
35K ain't terrible for Dever. But maybe that shouldn't be your primary decision making factor. At this stage of your career, what's more important is what you think you can learn from this office.
I think young graduates today can learn a great deal from any type of firm experience except for one type of setting. The one thing you want to avoid is falling down the "I want to design" trap. If you are out looking for that, you'll spend the next couple of years making 3D models, rendering and putting together boards. All of which, while much funner than drawings say toilet details, teaches you little more than what you've already learned from school.
Architecture is a long career. This recession will not last forever. Don't let economics completely dictate your career goals.
Get experience... If that job will get you real project experience straight out of school, do it...
On the other hand, I would contact the other firm and let them know you have an offer and need to reply soon... Give the other firm an option to match the offer at least, especially if you have already taken their time with an interview. The other firm would appreciate you giving them an opportunity to offer, and the fact that you have an offer under your belt means you have a quantifiable market value...
I have no idea what entry level architecture hires are getting these days - nobody has hired a fresh grad in years around here. That said, for a place like denver a pre-recession starting wage wouldn't go much over $40k if you were lucky. $35k is only 12.5% less than the magical wage of 40. *If* the economy roars back and this firm gets good and profitable I would guess you should expect some rapid wage growth. And if the economy lingers on like it is now, at least you have a job.
Call the other firm. The offer should be able to wait a couple days at least, let the first firm know you are seriously considering the offer and tell them when you will reply by. After the second firm gives you a response you can decide, if they don't make an offer then you have your decision made for you.
Did you read the thread at all med.? This is in Denver, which is not an INSANELY expensive city. 35k would be a totally different discussion if we were talking about New York (or wherever it is you are living).
I mean I still think that 35K is pretty downright unsatisfactory even in a cheaper city but given the circumstanses in the industry I'd take it.
I'm sure there are dozens of other jobs in Denver that pay better without even a degree. That is how BAD this is people. We need to do something about this -- preferable grow some and charge more for our services.
And I dont want to hear any "when I was your age all we made was this and that" kind of shit. Your generation knows full well how badly they hurt us by driving up all the prices for pretty much everything but breathing...well....so far.
so...you only have 1 summer experience and you live in denver? what where you expecting to make? my first job out of school i made $10/hr. now i live in chicago and i make 30k, with 5 years of solid, award-winning experience, and i am very knowledgeable and competent. and i get my rent and bills paid. welcome to the real world, my friend.
Difference between $35 and $40K is surprisingly huge. Difference between $55 and $70K was nice, but didn't really have as much of an impact as hitting that $40K threshold did. When you are bumming it out paycheck to paycheck, every dollar is greatly appreciated.
I'm with Cherith on this one. Use the offer as a leverage to get the second company to make a quicker decision. It's great to have options in life. Use them to your advantage.
Granted $35k is not going to buy a new car. It's probably not going to make mortgage payments on a new house. It might not make the biggest dent in student loan payments. It's not going to put a lot of frills and extras in the budget.
It is however much better than minimum wage, a salary I have seen many firms offer as a starting salary for recent graduates with little to no experience (and also for graduates with experience for that matter). It's WAY better than what I got paid when I first started out... way back in 2003 when the economy didn't suck.
I don't understand why people think this is a bad offer. It's not like the poster is a senior architect in NYC.
My first job out of undergrad offered me the same salary, and that was in Boston, during the "good times." In my interview I said I wanted 40k-45k, so when I got the offer, I explained that I was interested but their salary was a bit low. They gave me a new offer with 2k more. I also got a promotion and a raise less than 6 months later...you never know what could happen.
Also, I would contact the other firm you are interested in and pressure them to make a decision. Explain that you really like their office, but have an offer somewhere else and will have to decide soon. In my experience, firms are more likely to make an offer if they know someone else already has.
If I were you, and the other job can't hire you, I would take this one. Make the best of it, learn as much as you can about construction and office practices and try not to get sucked in to what you don't like. Stay for 5-6 months, and keep your eye out for other opportunities down the road.
^ well they could always say NO and go to the next candidate. It's not like there isn't a line of people around the block eager and willing to take that position. They probably already have the number 2 on speed-dial.
don't just 'take it' - that wouldn't be smart. express your gratitude for their offer and ask for more money, either stating that you have a competing, higher offer in the wings or cite personal budget/expense issues. they won't pull the rug out from under you - they'll either say, "yes - here is a bit more money" or "no - we can't afford a higher offer - do you still want the job?"
typically, a firm will bill out a junior designer at around 5x their pay. that's not exploitation. it covers down time, taxes, benefits, etc, in addition to profit, of which the firm takes a share and the principals take a share. no one is 100% efficient. most employees are probably half that.
Billable hours are WAY down. Many people are not willing to pay what it takes to make drawings. I am not defending them but Architecture is a really marginal business right now.
I agree that's a plausible view, make.. that's what I meant by "multpliers have gone way up"... that's synonymous as saying that billable hours per unit fixed costs are way down.
lebossman - 30k with 5 years of experience???? You have to be joking.
I agree with others, the original poster should bargain it up to 40k. It's a big difference. Denver may not be as expensive as other cities, but it's still expensive.
I lived in Pittsburgh once in a pretty upscale appartment where rent was less than half of what I pay now for a middle of the line appartment and I was still struggling. (circa 2002-2003)
just checked out the archinect salary poll. Looks like $35k isn't that far off the mark, even for major cities Sadly. There are some scary things up there: 26 (M) St. Louis, MO $23,000 and 25 (M) Phoenix, Arizona $13,572 stood out as scary fulltime ones.
Type of work: Fulltime
Type of workplace: Boutique
2 Years Experience
I find it depressing that there are people mid 40s, 20+ years experience, licensed pulling down corporate salaries of around $80k or $90k.
just checked out the archinect salary poll. Looks like $35k isn't that far off the mark, even for major cities Sadly. There are some scary things up there: 26 (M) St. Louis, MO $23,000 and 25 (M) Phoenix, Arizona $13,572 stood out as scary fulltime ones.
I find it depressing that there are people mid 40s, 20+ years experience, licensed pulling down corporate salaries of around $80k or $90k.
i went back out west, work as a chairlift operator, did some architecture, enjoyed myself, and then got a random offer in chicago and moved back. i still do some side work for the dog shampoo people.
Is the random job offer in architecture? Hope so. Checked out your web site. Very cool design build stuff. Good to know that somebody is getting jobs in this God forsaken city...
35k, take it or leave it?
Recent grad, One summer intern experience. 35k offer in the bag. But the job isnt terrific. I have a 50/50 chance at getting an offer with a better firm at around 40k but it would probably mean passing up on the sure offer.
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush? Or is 35k low enough that I will find something else comparable in case the better job doesnt come through. Thanks.
leave it and i'll take it!
Haha. Ill let you know. Seriously though...
I have never been in the job market so I have no idea how common or uncommon an offer like this is or how good it is.
..bleh
Where is this job?
Is it salary or hourly?
im not sure where youre living, but for the midwest, including the larger cities, that would be a pretty standard mid/low offer. Its not a great offer, its probably not even an average offer, but its not a ridiculous offer. In this economy, take the job you know you can have.... you can worry about making up that extra 5k when there are more jobs and you have more experience
The job is near denver. It is salary.
lletdownl: so even in this bad market, 35k jobs are pretty hard to come by? I have only interviewed at 2 firms period. The first is the one to offer me the job and I have had 2 interviews at the better firm that I would prefer. Maybe I have just been lucky in contacting the right firms...
That offer is pretty fucking aweful. But if that's all you are getting you might as well take it.
Take it.
I know people in metro areas with WAY higher costs of living that are currently making WAY less than $35k and they have experience.
Considering you have what sounds like no to very little experience, 35k is actually really good, esp. in the Denver area where the cost of living is pretty low. I've only ever made slightly more than that and I have 4+ years of experience. Add to that the current job climate... you would be a fool to turn down this offer. Of course, you have to factor what your living expenses are and make sure this will pay the bills, but honestly I doubt you will do much better. Consider yourself lucky that you actually got an interview and an offer... I have been waiting for that day for over a year now.
What you can do is contact the second firm and tell them a competing office has made you an offer, however you would prefer to work for them. See if they bite and offer you something equal to or more than the first office. Again, being someone new to the profession, any experience will be good experience, so I wouldn't get to concerned about "better offices" unless the first office has management problems or something.
bleh, each city really is different... 35k jobs are hard to come by in lots of places these days and im not too familiar with Denvers current job market for architects. Just be aware that there are parts of this country were unemployment rates amongst architects are still double the general unemployment rate. So... that being said, dont take your offers for granted. if you have the money to wait for a better offer, you can do that, but just keep in mind that we are still in a depressed market, and you might be better served long term by taking 35k, and getting your work experience under way ASAP.
Good day to you, Mister Bleh.
It seems your on the up-and-up. Pulling in that kind of money in this economy? Judging by the amount of amount of yellow and blue paper bills you're pulling in, I have three wonderful houses on two properties just for you!
You have a choice either between States Avenue and Virginia Avenue! Its your choice-- but a forewarning, the option is a bit of a Scylla and Charybdis.
Or should I say, between a railroad and the electric company!
Just curious where you found these job listings? The Archinect job board is great but I also know it's getting more action than a cheap hotel room mattress. Craigslist ads are always so elusive it's difficult to take any of them seriously, and after that you are left with Monster.com (and related sites) that assume by 'architect' you must surely mean 'systems architects', 'solutions architect', or any other array of non-architecture related careers. Aside from working the AIA directory top to bottom, I am not really sure where the job listings are hiding out these days.
Maybe all the firms are holding out for Archinect 3.0.
its a job..take it
Bleg,
35K ain't terrible for Dever. But maybe that shouldn't be your primary decision making factor. At this stage of your career, what's more important is what you think you can learn from this office.
I think young graduates today can learn a great deal from any type of firm experience except for one type of setting. The one thing you want to avoid is falling down the "I want to design" trap. If you are out looking for that, you'll spend the next couple of years making 3D models, rendering and putting together boards. All of which, while much funner than drawings say toilet details, teaches you little more than what you've already learned from school.
Architecture is a long career. This recession will not last forever. Don't let economics completely dictate your career goals.
take it...
Unless of course the office is not going to pay you. I don't care what anyone says, no experience is worth not getting paid for.
Get experience... If that job will get you real project experience straight out of school, do it...
On the other hand, I would contact the other firm and let them know you have an offer and need to reply soon... Give the other firm an option to match the offer at least, especially if you have already taken their time with an interview. The other firm would appreciate you giving them an opportunity to offer, and the fact that you have an offer under your belt means you have a quantifiable market value...
I have no idea what entry level architecture hires are getting these days - nobody has hired a fresh grad in years around here. That said, for a place like denver a pre-recession starting wage wouldn't go much over $40k if you were lucky. $35k is only 12.5% less than the magical wage of 40. *If* the economy roars back and this firm gets good and profitable I would guess you should expect some rapid wage growth. And if the economy lingers on like it is now, at least you have a job.
Call the other firm. The offer should be able to wait a couple days at least, let the first firm know you are seriously considering the offer and tell them when you will reply by. After the second firm gives you a response you can decide, if they don't make an offer then you have your decision made for you.
I live in an INSANELY expensive city. 35k would not cover rent for the most part let alone basic living expenses.
Did you read the thread at all med.? This is in Denver, which is not an INSANELY expensive city. 35k would be a totally different discussion if we were talking about New York (or wherever it is you are living).
I live in Denver. Take it.
I mean I still think that 35K is pretty downright unsatisfactory even in a cheaper city but given the circumstanses in the industry I'd take it.
I'm sure there are dozens of other jobs in Denver that pay better without even a degree. That is how BAD this is people. We need to do something about this -- preferable grow some and charge more for our services.
And I dont want to hear any "when I was your age all we made was this and that" kind of shit. Your generation knows full well how badly they hurt us by driving up all the prices for pretty much everything but breathing...well....so far.
so...you only have 1 summer experience and you live in denver? what where you expecting to make? my first job out of school i made $10/hr. now i live in chicago and i make 30k, with 5 years of solid, award-winning experience, and i am very knowledgeable and competent. and i get my rent and bills paid. welcome to the real world, my friend.
Difference between $35 and $40K is surprisingly huge. Difference between $55 and $70K was nice, but didn't really have as much of an impact as hitting that $40K threshold did. When you are bumming it out paycheck to paycheck, every dollar is greatly appreciated.
I'm with Cherith on this one. Use the offer as a leverage to get the second company to make a quicker decision. It's great to have options in life. Use them to your advantage.
"Do you want to make more money? Sure we all do!"
Granted $35k is not going to buy a new car. It's probably not going to make mortgage payments on a new house. It might not make the biggest dent in student loan payments. It's not going to put a lot of frills and extras in the budget.
It is however much better than minimum wage, a salary I have seen many firms offer as a starting salary for recent graduates with little to no experience (and also for graduates with experience for that matter). It's WAY better than what I got paid when I first started out... way back in 2003 when the economy didn't suck.
Well said le bossman.
The Real World:DENVER
Looks like $35K is going to get you pretty far.
im getting paid 7.25 / hour! and i have more experience than you son!
I don't understand why people think this is a bad offer. It's not like the poster is a senior architect in NYC.
My first job out of undergrad offered me the same salary, and that was in Boston, during the "good times." In my interview I said I wanted 40k-45k, so when I got the offer, I explained that I was interested but their salary was a bit low. They gave me a new offer with 2k more. I also got a promotion and a raise less than 6 months later...you never know what could happen.
Also, I would contact the other firm you are interested in and pressure them to make a decision. Explain that you really like their office, but have an offer somewhere else and will have to decide soon. In my experience, firms are more likely to make an offer if they know someone else already has.
If I were you, and the other job can't hire you, I would take this one. Make the best of it, learn as much as you can about construction and office practices and try not to get sucked in to what you don't like. Stay for 5-6 months, and keep your eye out for other opportunities down the road.
Have you tried to negotiate your current offer? Ask for 40 and they may come mid way - maybe 37. You don't have anything to lose.
^ well they could always say NO and go to the next candidate. It's not like there isn't a line of people around the block eager and willing to take that position. They probably already have the number 2 on speed-dial.
Take it. Learn and survive.
I'd suggest saying "sure, I'll take it, but I'd like to learn x, y, and z"
That way you can look at it more as a solid investment.
take it.
don't just 'take it' - that wouldn't be smart. express your gratitude for their offer and ask for more money, either stating that you have a competing, higher offer in the wings or cite personal budget/expense issues. they won't pull the rug out from under you - they'll either say, "yes - here is a bit more money" or "no - we can't afford a higher offer - do you still want the job?"
take it.
drink some dr.pepper... it might help clear your thoughts a bit
Keep it or abort it?
hmm.. $35k is basically $16.80 an hour. So if your multiplier is 2x and your advertised rate is 20% profit, your billing rate would be $60.00/hr.
Funny, I haven't seen seen any subs proposing salaries for any tier at $60.00/hr. $70 or $80 is as low as I've seen it.
Either multipliers have gone way up or firms are exploiting junior designers.
typically, a firm will bill out a junior designer at around 5x their pay. that's not exploitation. it covers down time, taxes, benefits, etc, in addition to profit, of which the firm takes a share and the principals take a share. no one is 100% efficient. most employees are probably half that.
Urbanist,
Billable hours are WAY down. Many people are not willing to pay what it takes to make drawings. I am not defending them but Architecture is a really marginal business right now.
I agree that's a plausible view, make.. that's what I meant by "multpliers have gone way up"... that's synonymous as saying that billable hours per unit fixed costs are way down.
lebossman - 30k with 5 years of experience???? You have to be joking.
I agree with others, the original poster should bargain it up to 40k. It's a big difference. Denver may not be as expensive as other cities, but it's still expensive.
I lived in Pittsburgh once in a pretty upscale appartment where rent was less than half of what I pay now for a middle of the line appartment and I was still struggling. (circa 2002-2003)
i spent most of 2 years looking for a job, so when i found one, i took it. have you been out of work in this economy?
just checked out the archinect salary poll. Looks like $35k isn't that far off the mark, even for major cities Sadly. There are some scary things up there: 26 (M) St. Louis, MO $23,000 and 25 (M) Phoenix, Arizona $13,572 stood out as scary fulltime ones.
Type of work: Fulltime
Type of workplace: Boutique
2 Years Experience
I find it depressing that there are people mid 40s, 20+ years experience, licensed pulling down corporate salaries of around $80k or $90k.
just checked out the archinect salary poll. Looks like $35k isn't that far off the mark, even for major cities Sadly. There are some scary things up there: 26 (M) St. Louis, MO $23,000 and 25 (M) Phoenix, Arizona $13,572 stood out as scary fulltime ones.
I find it depressing that there are people mid 40s, 20+ years experience, licensed pulling down corporate salaries of around $80k or $90k.
So no more dog shampoo factory for you le bossman? Is your new job in architecture? I presume you came back to Chicago as well.
er...welcome back to reality
i went back out west, work as a chairlift operator, did some architecture, enjoyed myself, and then got a random offer in chicago and moved back. i still do some side work for the dog shampoo people.
Is the random job offer in architecture? Hope so. Checked out your web site. Very cool design build stuff. Good to know that somebody is getting jobs in this God forsaken city...
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