leave it. we have only ourselves to blame for the compensation we receive. when i finished university (M.Arch from Kent State University) in 2001 my classmates and i made a pact - 40 for 40. $40k minimum for a 40hr/wk salary. stick to your guns.
I have a feeling that a even when or if this recession ends, employers are going to use it as an excuse to pay us low wages, 35 grand? the only one that can answer your question is you, because only you know your own situation. 35 grand to support yourself and a family? not even in the middle of nowhere would that suffice.
Thats a great idea why hasn't anyone tried that?
Maybe if i download that old song that goes something like "american women stay away from me" and played it really loudly everywhere I went. maybe then women will stay way long enough for me to become a famous but not so rich architect.
Make sure you get paid for oevertime and you will take home extra cash AND have no time to spend it. Work hard and get a 10% raise every year based on your outstanding performance. You will be up to 45k in 3 years, which isn't bad.
ask about health benefits at the 40k job vs the 35k one, some firms will take that out of your paycheck. others wont, so in the end you might be making the same
And I dont want to hear any "when I was your age all we made was this and that" kind of shit.
+1....If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that asinine line. I don't give 2 shits if you made $12k back in 1980. Adjusted for inflation, salaries in Architecture have gone down. Not even boom times were able to get Architecture salaries back to 1960-70's levels.
It's WAY better than what I got paid when I first started out... way back in 2003 when the economy didn't suck.
True that.
Have you tried to negotiate your current offer? Ask for 40 and they may come mid way - maybe 37. You don't have anything to lose.
I'd try that approach. Statistics say lifetime earnings of those starting out in recessions are way lower because they don't negotiate. Only risk is they recind the offer.
I find it depressing that there are people mid 40s, 20+ years experience, licensed pulling down corporate salaries of around $80k or $90k.
Actually, that's a good wage in this country. Providing you don't live in NYC you can live a decent middle class life on that. Most non-management Architect's never get to that kind of wage, at least in most cities. And remember only a fraction of us will ever make it to "management" level. That's what's depressing.
when i finished university (M.Arch from Kent State University) in 2001 my classmates and i made a pact - 40 for 40. $40k minimum for a 40hr/wk salary.
In 2001 I was offered a job in Philly at $32k. That was the higest offer and with limited experience. I'm calling BS on your pact unless you all were in high cost of living cities on the coasts. Also the dot com bubble was busting at that time. Know many people that were laid off in 2001-02 only to get new jobs at lower wages.
let's see. 35k is a 3 month surgeon salary. 35K is a 4 month Lawyer salary. 35k is a 6 month construction worker salary.
So who makes 35K a year in Denver? A shoe salesman, a cabdriver, a paramedic, a plumber (not self employed). 35K isn't bad for a first year architect. But compared to all other recent grads, it's terrible.
I'm sure you've already made your decision, but maybe this post will help others in the same boat.
I live and work in Denver. My friend just took a job at a small-med residential firm. They offered him 33K for the first 6 mo, and then 37K salary after. He had about one year of experience more than you. He thought it he wa being a bit low-ball'd but being the state of the market in denver he took it.
Harold where did u get that 35k salary for a plumber? because here in illinois, they earn a hefty gage. My dad called someone to route and unclog the main drain, for 30 minutes of work, guess how much we payed? 400 dollars, and I'm not talking about pesos buddy. Didn't you ever see that Frazor episode where their high school bully happened to be the plumber? look it up pretty funny.
What you get affects all of us, even in a minuscule way, so try to get the most you can - at least call the other firm and ask them to make a decision, the worst that could have happened is that they tell you "no" in which case you would take that 35,000 anyway.
I wish the whole profession would ask for better pay, atleast similar to engineers? - do you think that's too much to ask? We need the leaders of the profession - the AIA's and other organisations to demand and encourage everyone to ask for higher fees. How do think large organisations like McDonalds sell their borderline junk and still make huge profits? - it's not only because they taste good, but rather I'd argue it's because they have lobbyists, advertisers, lawyers, that create subliminal, pervasive and persuasive campaigns that change public perception - resulting in people who love the taste and are happy to buy it -- if soy manufacturers worked hard enough I'm sure they'd be able to make us want to buy tofu [despite it's insipid, lackluster taste], oh wait we love tofu - it's good for us, high in protein and really a versatile ingredient (0.0) ....
... bottom line: architects deliver a service, a specialised service that you can't just get anywhere just like a laywer, doctor, engineer etc - consequently we should be setting the price for our services, and I think it should be set at the same level the other professions. There's less building work going, that's true but working for minimum wage is BS...
own - we do set our price. The reality is a lot of people are willing to set their prices very low. Look, I have a small (6 people) firm in the middle of midtown Atlanta. Our rent is reasonable by any comparison, but we offer all of the standard benefits and we pay reasonable (I think) salaries. In short, we have a modest but real overhead. Not nearly as big as the larger corporate firms to be sure.
Yet, in the past year, we've lost 3-4 projects (these are 1M type municipal jobs) , on fees, to small 1-2 person firms who operate out of their house out in the suburbs of Atlanta. Their effective overhead, compared to mine, is nearly zilch. Their liability insurance is 1/4 what mine is; their rent is their mortgage (which they get to write off in part); they don't keep up with the latest software or hardware (we know because we chatted while waiting for our interviews). In short, they can get by on 70-80k a year apiece and are quite content with recycling designs, details, whatever. They know who they know and meet the expectations of these clients quite well. I've actually made my peace with that aspect - they get theirs and we'll stay out of those markets in the future unless we know someone personally and have a shot at winning.
Why bring this up? One major problem with the way most CLIENTS (not architects) see fees is that one size (or percentage) fits all. 6% of construction for the project above may work great for that situation. Works less for us, not at all for the larger firms. Yet, ask yourselves why we arrived at that number? Why aren't our fees a condition of the time we spend (and that alone)? Get the answer and you can start to figure out how to structure the message...
your comments jive with my belief that the arch industry as a whole needs a giant pr / advertising campaign. in my view the money I send to the aia should go towards ads, ads, ads, ads. frankly i wouldn't need their free advice on other things if i made enough money to just hire my own lawyers etcetera...
they put a few ads in a few select publications here and there for like a few months many moons ago. the ads were actually great. KEEP DOING THAT and do it everywhere. radio ads, cheap ads in free newspapers, etc... hire a damn public relations consultant.
frankly a lot of arch firms could do with some PR efforts as well. i'm surprised at how little architects make use of this sector of the business world.
i'm so fucking tired of having what i do come down to "picking out paint" in a potential client's mind. nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does, or what goes into building a building. and how do we educate the public in this world? (sadly) through advertising. until we get mandatory building design classes into public education of course (har har har).
frankly i wouldn't need their free advice on other things if i made enough money to just hire my own lawyers
Damn straight. AIA (I'm not a member this year, decided I can't afford it) is supposed to be helping with insurance and business structure but I haven't found their advice useful enough to justify the cost of entry.
I talked with some young Swedish architects yesterday who say in Sweden they pay several hundred dollar to join the official architect's association (not clear if it's a union or a governmental entity or what exactly - the profession is obviously structured differently there), and the fee they pay to join also covers their liability insurance. WOW! So small firms in Sweden get put into a big pool of insurance money with the big players and everyone is covered. I love this idea. Then I look at my AIA fees that buy me a magazine subscription and tracking of my CEUs, plus the fact that I pay over $2K a year for insurance and I get very sad. :-(
But I'm off topic. bleh, take the job and kick ass at it 110% for 6 months, learn learn learn, take on responsibility, be a valuable team member etc.. If they don't appreciate you and reward you at that point (you'll have to be proactive about it and request a salary/performance review, have hard evidence of how successful your work has been, etc.), you can look for another job WITH experience in a firm now under your belt. Good luck.
PS I just want to point out that my own "back in my day" salary story is, I think, not only complaining but adding a bit of perspective: I started at $18,000 in 1992. Thirty years previously, my father, a metallurgical engineer, started at his first job after college at the exact same salary. So wage depression hasn't only happened recently, it's been ongoing for 40+ years.
I'm going to blame my more recent spelling mistakes on this terrible economy and state of affairs in architecture, I can't seem to get a good nights sleep, but good thing is college, prepared me to handle this small problem.
oh yes, take Donna's advice. Learn, Live, and Move on.
"nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does"
This is a persistent theme here on archinect - almost as persistent as the expectation that 'somebody else' should do something about the problem.
IMHO, if each of us can't quickly and clearly explain to a layman what it is that we do - and why that is valuable - then we have little chance of improving our lot in life.
jmanganelli: the problem with your question is that we all have different skills, experience, services, clients, etc. My explanation would be unique to me and my firm - yours would be different and unique to you, as it should be. I don't believe there is a single, unified concept of "what an architect does".
The point of my earlier post is that if each of us can't make a credible case to our clients regarding the value of our services, then we can't reasonably expect someone else to plow that ground for us.
"i'm so fucking tired of having what i do come down to "picking out paint" in a potential client's mind. nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does, or what goes into building a building. and how do we educate the public in this world? (sadly) through advertising. until we get mandatory building design classes into public education of course (har har har)."
I think the general populace are closer to understanding the role of the typical archtiect better than the typical architect does.
What the majority of architects provide is the ability to choose three colors of tile that match well with the paint and plumbing and light fixtures in the bathroom. It's sad but there it is. Architecture or the need to have or be licensed has mostly gone bye bye basically because we have become lazy and complacent. Most building designers do the same thing an architect does, they just can't stamp/sign off on a lot of the construction drawings because the individual state they work in requires a licensed professional. But for what? We farmed out the structural, PE, electrician and MECH. I suppose we coordinate drawings well throughout these professions.
is see your point quizzical --- and it makes complete sense
i initially took your point a little differently -- categorically
it seems that for the public to understand what we do and why we are valuable, they should be able to apply a categorical label to us that makes intuitive sense as to why they would want our involvement
it may be the case that i develop a client base for whom i offer valuable skills --- which solves the problem for me, but does not address the quagmire within which the profession is engulfed
i do think in order for this to be a broadly lucrative profession, people have to be able to generally say, 'architects do x and that is why i need them'
otherwise, there will always be that suspicion that if they just hired the right concoction of domain experts, or put the time in to do management and coordination themselves, then they wouldn't need the architect --- the result of which is a skepticism about our value and a consequent unwillingness to pay us much
"we do set our price. The reality is a lot of people are willing to set their prices very low." - Greg Walker
- that's exactly the problem and why we need a large organisation e.g. the AIA to lead an industry wide fee restructuring. The building industry IS cyclic, the next recessionary dip is going to happen again, hopefully next time our profession will have a more balanced wage and more assets to get through it more calmly...
"arch industry as a whole needs a giant pr / advertising campaign." - mantaray
... and lobbyists that encourage the government for more, better quality, public structures.
"nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does" - quizzical
Has anyone watched the program "Grand Designs" - that tv show was educated the general public greatly and much more than any "Institute of Architect" in the world, ever has - people need to know that architects don't just draw pretty pictures (which is why everyone seems to love and want to be an architect) - but some of the services we provide are actually some quite serious and critical tasks e.g. project co-ordination and management, and therefore provide alot of value to a project, and consequently should be compensated accordingly. (Most clients in "Grands Designs" go in thinking they can project management resulting in many mistakes, and stress along the way)
P.S. I love this profession, I just think we deserve a salary comparable to other profession concerning the built environment namely engineering! - maybe??
own - of course we'd all like to have a salary more commensurate. Of course, we could be a doctor in the Czech Republic...
Look, this is a really tough, nearly intractable problem in a free market economy. If it was that easy to fix, I can guarantee you the AIA would have done so long ago. They'd love to (and are trying) to solve these problems. There's a ton of moving parts to fix...
The other thing that should be pointed out - firms do make money. Some firms make a whole lot of money. The premise of any firm owner, no matter who they are, is to obtain work and find a way to produce that work at a cost lower than the fees involved. That means you have to hire people at a salary that allows you to still make money. Otherwise, as much as I love this profession, I'm out. I'll go do something else if (as an owner) I can't break even or make some kind of reasonable return. Doesn't mean I have to be unethical, doesn't mean slave wages, etc. What it does mean is that I have to articulate our value to our clients. Lot of times we can do that - I've certainly won work without being the low person in the room. Sometimes the client is only looking for the low number. We avoid those situations. HOWEVER, you can't ask the general public to do that - AIA and everyone like that always advocates for quality/qualifications based selections. Still doesn't prevent clients from setting a price expectation in their mind...
Bossman,
Been working at PB for the past 4 years. When my hours were cut about a year ago I went full time at Lawrence Tech for M.Arch. PB paid for a good chunk of tuition in exchange for loyalty, so I'll be here for awhile.
"- that's exactly the problem and why we need a large organisation e.g. the AIA to lead an industry wide fee restructuring. The building industry IS cyclic, the next recessionary dip is going to happen again, hopefully next time our profession will have a more balanced wage and more assets to get through it more calmly..."
The AIA did that once already. It's called price fixing. It's highly illegal.
Unions don't raise the minimum wage -- Congress, as a matter of law, raises the minimum wage.
The Justice Department made it abundantly clear at the time of the Consent Decree that professional associations cannot impose, and enforce, a fee structure on their own profession -- that is considered 'restraint of trade' -- you're wasting your time pushing that particular rope.
I dont know what planet these people are from that are telling you to hold out for a better offer. Thats dumb.
You have no experience.
35k in denver is fine and you can leave after two weeks if you get a better offer somewhere else, they'll understand, theres a million other candidates behind you.
you can live in a three bedroom house in suburban thornton for 650 a month and ride the bus to work.
35k, take it or leave it?
yes
thanks. yeah, i've been fortunate to have worked with some incredibly talented people.
leave it. we have only ourselves to blame for the compensation we receive. when i finished university (M.Arch from Kent State University) in 2001 my classmates and i made a pact - 40 for 40. $40k minimum for a 40hr/wk salary. stick to your guns.
I have a feeling that a even when or if this recession ends, employers are going to use it as an excuse to pay us low wages, 35 grand? the only one that can answer your question is you, because only you know your own situation. 35 grand to support yourself and a family? not even in the middle of nowhere would that suffice.
^ simple solution. Don't have a family!
Thats a great idea why hasn't anyone tried that?
Maybe if i download that old song that goes something like "american women stay away from me" and played it really loudly everywhere I went. maybe then women will stay way long enough for me to become a famous but not so rich architect.
Make sure you get paid for oevertime and you will take home extra cash AND have no time to spend it. Work hard and get a 10% raise every year based on your outstanding performance. You will be up to 45k in 3 years, which isn't bad.
take it. but get that time-and-a-half for overtime.
take it, then leave it if the 40k one comes around, just tell them its not for you.
Get it and keep looking for jobs.
The easiest way to get a new job is... having already a job.
ask about health benefits at the 40k job vs the 35k one, some firms will take that out of your paycheck. others wont, so in the end you might be making the same
Take it but don't stop job hunting. The offer of the job regardless of a pay is already lucky at is.
Great responses on this thread.
And I dont want to hear any "when I was your age all we made was this and that" kind of shit.
+1....If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that asinine line. I don't give 2 shits if you made $12k back in 1980. Adjusted for inflation, salaries in Architecture have gone down. Not even boom times were able to get Architecture salaries back to 1960-70's levels.
It's WAY better than what I got paid when I first started out... way back in 2003 when the economy didn't suck.
True that.
Have you tried to negotiate your current offer? Ask for 40 and they may come mid way - maybe 37. You don't have anything to lose.
I'd try that approach. Statistics say lifetime earnings of those starting out in recessions are way lower because they don't negotiate. Only risk is they recind the offer.
I find it depressing that there are people mid 40s, 20+ years experience, licensed pulling down corporate salaries of around $80k or $90k.
Actually, that's a good wage in this country. Providing you don't live in NYC you can live a decent middle class life on that. Most non-management Architect's never get to that kind of wage, at least in most cities. And remember only a fraction of us will ever make it to "management" level. That's what's depressing.
when i finished university (M.Arch from Kent State University) in 2001 my classmates and i made a pact - 40 for 40. $40k minimum for a 40hr/wk salary.
In 2001 I was offered a job in Philly at $32k. That was the higest offer and with limited experience. I'm calling BS on your pact unless you all were in high cost of living cities on the coasts. Also the dot com bubble was busting at that time. Know many people that were laid off in 2001-02 only to get new jobs at lower wages.
this thread is depressing
hey shuell what are you up to these days
let's see. 35k is a 3 month surgeon salary. 35K is a 4 month Lawyer salary. 35k is a 6 month construction worker salary.
So who makes 35K a year in Denver? A shoe salesman, a cabdriver, a paramedic, a plumber (not self employed). 35K isn't bad for a first year architect. But compared to all other recent grads, it's terrible.
construction workers make $70,000 a year? are you serious?
bleh
I'm sure you've already made your decision, but maybe this post will help others in the same boat.
I live and work in Denver. My friend just took a job at a small-med residential firm. They offered him 33K for the first 6 mo, and then 37K salary after. He had about one year of experience more than you. He thought it he wa being a bit low-ball'd but being the state of the market in denver he took it.
if you are in a union then definitely, bossman
well i suppose $35 an hour comes out to about that. most of the people i used to work construction with though survived on far, far less.
Harold where did u get that 35k salary for a plumber? because here in illinois, they earn a hefty gage. My dad called someone to route and unclog the main drain, for 30 minutes of work, guess how much we payed? 400 dollars, and I'm not talking about pesos buddy. Didn't you ever see that Frazor episode where their high school bully happened to be the plumber? look it up pretty funny.
wage oops
..bleh
What you get affects all of us, even in a minuscule way, so try to get the most you can - at least call the other firm and ask them to make a decision, the worst that could have happened is that they tell you "no" in which case you would take that 35,000 anyway.
I wish the whole profession would ask for better pay, atleast similar to engineers? - do you think that's too much to ask? We need the leaders of the profession - the AIA's and other organisations to demand and encourage everyone to ask for higher fees. How do think large organisations like McDonalds sell their borderline junk and still make huge profits? - it's not only because they taste good, but rather I'd argue it's because they have lobbyists, advertisers, lawyers, that create subliminal, pervasive and persuasive campaigns that change public perception - resulting in people who love the taste and are happy to buy it -- if soy manufacturers worked hard enough I'm sure they'd be able to make us want to buy tofu [despite it's insipid, lackluster taste], oh wait we love tofu - it's good for us, high in protein and really a versatile ingredient (0.0) ....
... bottom line: architects deliver a service, a specialised service that you can't just get anywhere just like a laywer, doctor, engineer etc - consequently we should be setting the price for our services, and I think it should be set at the same level the other professions. There's less building work going, that's true but working for minimum wage is BS...
own - we do set our price. The reality is a lot of people are willing to set their prices very low. Look, I have a small (6 people) firm in the middle of midtown Atlanta. Our rent is reasonable by any comparison, but we offer all of the standard benefits and we pay reasonable (I think) salaries. In short, we have a modest but real overhead. Not nearly as big as the larger corporate firms to be sure.
Yet, in the past year, we've lost 3-4 projects (these are 1M type municipal jobs) , on fees, to small 1-2 person firms who operate out of their house out in the suburbs of Atlanta. Their effective overhead, compared to mine, is nearly zilch. Their liability insurance is 1/4 what mine is; their rent is their mortgage (which they get to write off in part); they don't keep up with the latest software or hardware (we know because we chatted while waiting for our interviews). In short, they can get by on 70-80k a year apiece and are quite content with recycling designs, details, whatever. They know who they know and meet the expectations of these clients quite well. I've actually made my peace with that aspect - they get theirs and we'll stay out of those markets in the future unless we know someone personally and have a shot at winning.
Why bring this up? One major problem with the way most CLIENTS (not architects) see fees is that one size (or percentage) fits all. 6% of construction for the project above may work great for that situation. Works less for us, not at all for the larger firms. Yet, ask yourselves why we arrived at that number? Why aren't our fees a condition of the time we spend (and that alone)? Get the answer and you can start to figure out how to structure the message...
own:
your comments jive with my belief that the arch industry as a whole needs a giant pr / advertising campaign. in my view the money I send to the aia should go towards ads, ads, ads, ads. frankly i wouldn't need their free advice on other things if i made enough money to just hire my own lawyers etcetera...
they put a few ads in a few select publications here and there for like a few months many moons ago. the ads were actually great. KEEP DOING THAT and do it everywhere. radio ads, cheap ads in free newspapers, etc... hire a damn public relations consultant.
frankly a lot of arch firms could do with some PR efforts as well. i'm surprised at how little architects make use of this sector of the business world.
i'm so fucking tired of having what i do come down to "picking out paint" in a potential client's mind. nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does, or what goes into building a building. and how do we educate the public in this world? (sadly) through advertising. until we get mandatory building design classes into public education of course (har har har).
Damn straight. AIA (I'm not a member this year, decided I can't afford it) is supposed to be helping with insurance and business structure but I haven't found their advice useful enough to justify the cost of entry.
I talked with some young Swedish architects yesterday who say in Sweden they pay several hundred dollar to join the official architect's association (not clear if it's a union or a governmental entity or what exactly - the profession is obviously structured differently there), and the fee they pay to join also covers their liability insurance. WOW! So small firms in Sweden get put into a big pool of insurance money with the big players and everyone is covered. I love this idea. Then I look at my AIA fees that buy me a magazine subscription and tracking of my CEUs, plus the fact that I pay over $2K a year for insurance and I get very sad. :-(
But I'm off topic. bleh, take the job and kick ass at it 110% for 6 months, learn learn learn, take on responsibility, be a valuable team member etc.. If they don't appreciate you and reward you at that point (you'll have to be proactive about it and request a salary/performance review, have hard evidence of how successful your work has been, etc.), you can look for another job WITH experience in a firm now under your belt. Good luck.
PS I just want to point out that my own "back in my day" salary story is, I think, not only complaining but adding a bit of perspective: I started at $18,000 in 1992. Thirty years previously, my father, a metallurgical engineer, started at his first job after college at the exact same salary. So wage depression hasn't only happened recently, it's been ongoing for 40+ years.
I'm going to blame my more recent spelling mistakes on this terrible economy and state of affairs in architecture, I can't seem to get a good nights sleep, but good thing is college, prepared me to handle this small problem.
oh yes, take Donna's advice. Learn, Live, and Move on.
This is a persistent theme here on archinect - almost as persistent as the expectation that 'somebody else' should do something about the problem.
IMHO, if each of us can't quickly and clearly explain to a layman what it is that we do - and why that is valuable - then we have little chance of improving our lot in life.
so how do you explain it, quizzical?
jmanganelli: the problem with your question is that we all have different skills, experience, services, clients, etc. My explanation would be unique to me and my firm - yours would be different and unique to you, as it should be. I don't believe there is a single, unified concept of "what an architect does".
The point of my earlier post is that if each of us can't make a credible case to our clients regarding the value of our services, then we can't reasonably expect someone else to plow that ground for us.
"i'm so fucking tired of having what i do come down to "picking out paint" in a potential client's mind. nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does, or what goes into building a building. and how do we educate the public in this world? (sadly) through advertising. until we get mandatory building design classes into public education of course (har har har)."
I think the general populace are closer to understanding the role of the typical archtiect better than the typical architect does.
What the majority of architects provide is the ability to choose three colors of tile that match well with the paint and plumbing and light fixtures in the bathroom. It's sad but there it is. Architecture or the need to have or be licensed has mostly gone bye bye basically because we have become lazy and complacent. Most building designers do the same thing an architect does, they just can't stamp/sign off on a lot of the construction drawings because the individual state they work in requires a licensed professional. But for what? We farmed out the structural, PE, electrician and MECH. I suppose we coordinate drawings well throughout these professions.
is see your point quizzical --- and it makes complete sense
i initially took your point a little differently -- categorically
it seems that for the public to understand what we do and why we are valuable, they should be able to apply a categorical label to us that makes intuitive sense as to why they would want our involvement
it may be the case that i develop a client base for whom i offer valuable skills --- which solves the problem for me, but does not address the quagmire within which the profession is engulfed
i do think in order for this to be a broadly lucrative profession, people have to be able to generally say, 'architects do x and that is why i need them'
otherwise, there will always be that suspicion that if they just hired the right concoction of domain experts, or put the time in to do management and coordination themselves, then they wouldn't need the architect --- the result of which is a skepticism about our value and a consequent unwillingness to pay us much
tak€ it whi£€ ¥ou can, ¥o!
"we do set our price. The reality is a lot of people are willing to set their prices very low." - Greg Walker
- that's exactly the problem and why we need a large organisation e.g. the AIA to lead an industry wide fee restructuring. The building industry IS cyclic, the next recessionary dip is going to happen again, hopefully next time our profession will have a more balanced wage and more assets to get through it more calmly...
"arch industry as a whole needs a giant pr / advertising campaign." - mantaray
... and lobbyists that encourage the government for more, better quality, public structures.
"nobody has any fucking clue what an architect really does" - quizzical
Has anyone watched the program "Grand Designs" - that tv show was educated the general public greatly and much more than any "Institute of Architect" in the world, ever has - people need to know that architects don't just draw pretty pictures (which is why everyone seems to love and want to be an architect) - but some of the services we provide are actually some quite serious and critical tasks e.g. project co-ordination and management, and therefore provide alot of value to a project, and consequently should be compensated accordingly. (Most clients in "Grands Designs" go in thinking they can project management resulting in many mistakes, and stress along the way)
P.S. I love this profession, I just think we deserve a salary comparable to other profession concerning the built environment namely engineering! - maybe??
Get it if there is nothing else. "Holes" in the resume do not look good.
own - of course we'd all like to have a salary more commensurate. Of course, we could be a doctor in the Czech Republic...
Look, this is a really tough, nearly intractable problem in a free market economy. If it was that easy to fix, I can guarantee you the AIA would have done so long ago. They'd love to (and are trying) to solve these problems. There's a ton of moving parts to fix...
The other thing that should be pointed out - firms do make money. Some firms make a whole lot of money. The premise of any firm owner, no matter who they are, is to obtain work and find a way to produce that work at a cost lower than the fees involved. That means you have to hire people at a salary that allows you to still make money. Otherwise, as much as I love this profession, I'm out. I'll go do something else if (as an owner) I can't break even or make some kind of reasonable return. Doesn't mean I have to be unethical, doesn't mean slave wages, etc. What it does mean is that I have to articulate our value to our clients. Lot of times we can do that - I've certainly won work without being the low person in the room. Sometimes the client is only looking for the low number. We avoid those situations. HOWEVER, you can't ask the general public to do that - AIA and everyone like that always advocates for quality/qualifications based selections. Still doesn't prevent clients from setting a price expectation in their mind...
Bossman,
Been working at PB for the past 4 years. When my hours were cut about a year ago I went full time at Lawrence Tech for M.Arch. PB paid for a good chunk of tuition in exchange for loyalty, so I'll be here for awhile.
portfolio is pretty sweet, really like the montana cabin
"- that's exactly the problem and why we need a large organisation e.g. the AIA to lead an industry wide fee restructuring. The building industry IS cyclic, the next recessionary dip is going to happen again, hopefully next time our profession will have a more balanced wage and more assets to get through it more calmly..."
The AIA did that once already. It's called price fixing. It's highly illegal.
"The AIA did that once already. It's called price fixing. It's highly illegal." - when a union raises the minimum wage is that illegal?
Unions don't raise the minimum wage -- Congress, as a matter of law, raises the minimum wage.
The Justice Department made it abundantly clear at the time of the Consent Decree that professional associations cannot impose, and enforce, a fee structure on their own profession -- that is considered 'restraint of trade' -- you're wasting your time pushing that particular rope.
I see I see - thanks quizzical
I dont know what planet these people are from that are telling you to hold out for a better offer. Thats dumb.
You have no experience.
35k in denver is fine and you can leave after two weeks if you get a better offer somewhere else, they'll understand, theres a million other candidates behind you.
you can live in a three bedroom house in suburban thornton for 650 a month and ride the bus to work.
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