I've been out of grad school for about 2.5 years now, and during that time was unemployed for 8 months before I found my current position at a small firm. The firm is doing well enough, and I'm getting some great experience with how a small firm runs. However, I'm not too thrilled with the location (a bit of a long commute) and the type of work.
In a recent discussion with my supervisor about our project, I pointed out an area where aligning two walls would have helped the space read better. She explained to me that while it was great that I saw that, and while it would make a good detail, the layout as she had it drawn would not allow for the walls to be aligned. She said that it was great that I was thinking like "an architect's architect" but that the client wouldn't notice that detail. I disagreed saying that while non-architects don't necessarily know why they like what they see, they know they like it. I also suggested that we revisit the layout to see if both design and programmatic goals could be reached. The suggestion was disregarded.
The whole event left me very disillusioned with real-world design process. I’m not sure if it’s the profession that’s like this or just one this architect. I also don’t know if I’m being too naive about the real world and overreacting, or if I’m right to stand up to this kind of architectural half-assery.
I’m now considering a change of employers. Should I suffer through the poor design in order to see a still-pretty-interesting project through, while getting some good experience with how to run a small firm? Or do I look for another position at another firm with decreased access to experience, but with work that will help me mature as a designer? And how does the current recession factor into all of this?
sounds like you are in a healthy environment - you asserted your opinion on a project and instead of going nuts, your boss handled it pretty well - not perfect, but pretty well...
IMO - you've just been told that they aren't going to pay you for work that's already been done. and it's up to you to judge whether or not they'd appreciate or be offended by you taking the initiative to rework the layout on your own time. sounds like if you simply reassured your supervisor that you did this on off hours just to see if it could be done they might be annoyed, but the worst that could happen is that they simply reject what you had done and move on to something else.
if anything, it's good practice for you to rework designs outside of work - that's how i came to appreciate what I once thought was mediocre design.
I've actually been asking myself a similar question lately, although I am coming at it from not having a job at all. My question is if any experience is worthwhile... i.e. should I take just any job regardless of how poor the design/architecture is or should I hold out for something that aligns better with my background and experience.
Which is worse, a large gap in employment history or having a pretty low-end office on your resume?
The only thing that really matters is profitability unless you work for the government or a non-profit-- but even then, many governments are starting to realize that it is sink or swim (i.e., your population will absolutely move and relocate if you're giving them shit).
You can do crappy work and make no money.
You can do amazing work and make no money.
You can do crappy work and make money.
You can do amazing work and make money.
Ideally, whatever you do should be on budget, on schedule with the highest possible fee you can extract from your clients.
If I'm trying to sell myself in a money-tight world, I'd rather be worried about proving that projects I worked on made actual money rather than them being pretty.
Listen to toasteroven, and keep your job, assuming you are still learning things there.
Within a few years you will likely have learned all you can learn at this firm, and hopefully the economy can be netter - then you'll know it's time to move on.
Having been through pure design-process hell before… having been embarrassed, bullied, threatened, belittled...having had ideas stolen, drawings changed, exhibits secretly not shown to client, etc...
A few things I have learned:
If you design something for 6', someone else will say 8'
If you had designed for 8', they will say it should be 6'
Learn to choose your battles: it’s not worth fighting about a small detail in a project you are not fully passionate about...not always but sometimes
All experience is good experience and it will all come back to help you later.
Always do what is asked of you perfectly first and then show your options.
Creative ownership is like money, with all its good and bad..it can be rationed and distributed, awarded and stolen..it can make people envious
Unless the person you are working with or under is of the undisputed genius of Frank Lloyd Wright, there are no 'chosen people' in Architecture or design. Regardless of what they think or how they talk and act.
Everyone has their own tastes..you, your coworkers, the client..there is no one right way or answer..often people (especially in creative/artistic design) have a lot of anxiety about the validity of their own work and position...so making 'better' suggestions threatens their career.
And I think most important,
If you feel strongly about your design and it is rejected or it is not feasible, save the work..save all your options for a project...you can actually build an alternate world of options...
cherith - if you do any kind of mixed-used projects you should feel grateful that the client retained you to lay out whatever is going into one of the tenant spaces. you'll understand what I'm talking about once you experience having to share your drawings with another architect.
What area do you live in? If there are enough jobs that you would consider changing employers because of this kind of disagreement, I'd like to move there!
You are in a delusional fantasy world if you are seriously considering leaving a job over something like this. Your attitude is exactly what is wrong with people in this profession. There is no humility, no humble-ness, little respect for your boss. No understanding that there are limits and that it is a job like any other where you must say 'yes ma'am' and do what you are told.
Good lord it is frightening what these schools are turning out these days.
Did you even consider the fee and time it would cost?
This is a RECESSION in a profession oversaturated with ego maniacs - a crap load of people looking for jobs. You think it is that easy to switch to a new job?!
If you want to design your own stuff start your own firm. Until then, take direction well, understand that some people may indeed know better than you, and realize you get nowhere if you cant work in a team environment.
i wouldn't put it quite the way Bosch has, but there is the possibility that your boss knows what she is doing...and you don't. just keep that in the back of your mind.
it is also possible that your boss is simply not interested in making the kind of architecture you want to do and so you focus on details and she focuses on landscape or whatever. if that is the case it is worth trying to understand why she took the decision she did. was it really just laziness? lack of time and fees? or something more subtle? There is a good chance you just are not well enough informed to pass judgment.
it is easy to discount the people in charge, and perhaps in this case you really have caught it all and got it right. BUT, if there is something to learn then take the opportunity. Being a boss is not easy and if you want to be one yourself it could be worth your time to pay attention now and learn what you can. Later on when some young person comes to you and asks why things are going the way they are you will hopefully be able to answer as your boss did (fairly good answer in my opinion), or even better.
quit if you like, don't expect better. just as bosch points out this is a job based on co-operation, very often with people who you don't and can't agree with. learning to deal with that is very impt part of being a real architect.
on second thought it is part of any job you will ever have.
I just want to point out that it is perfectly normal for someone who's been working for a couple years to really start questioning their boss's design ability - it happens within "mediocre" offices up to the starchitects (who do real projects)... it's kind of the entry-level hump... the great reconciling of real-world design process with what we learned in school...
if you leave, you'll just end up feeling the same way after a few months at your new firm (maybe add a few weeks if it's a bigger name)... it takes a while to get over it, but my trick was to literally rework designs that came out of my office - I learned pretty quickly that my bosses might actually know their shit - especially when something comes up later on in the project.
are you going to get CA experience? you know nothing until you've seen at least a few projects through construction - those weird material choices and odd design moves your boss made? might not seem so strange after you see it going up.
On the other hand, your problem may also just be a matter of approach... This might work better: don't *tell* people what you think is better, vs what they've already drawn, that is sort of just pointing at it and saying it like it is ... Instead, just *do it* and after the fact, after you've moved that wall, if it looks better and works better nobody will say anything, and they nay just trust in your judgment... Always do what you are told, and then do the other better thing both and show what you've done, never talk about what you will do... Just do it, nobody will tell you not to design it if you've gotten the work done and saved them the time in advance, made it better already... The client and your designer / manager will be happy and will not complain... Just be sure you don't rub it in their face, you need to be a team player.. :p
The trick is doing it first, then talk about it afterwards if it comes up...
I agree with bRink. It's always best to do it the way you were told first and if you see something that could be improved, draw that option up as well. Then present it in a way that will allow your boss to feel as if they made the decision. So instead of presenting it as "I did this because it works better" which basically trumps the authority of your boss you need to offer it as an alternative... explain why you did what you did in non-partial language and then offer your boss the option to pick which design they want to go forward with. You might have to do the other option on your time so make sure it is something you really think will offer a significant improvement.
Personally I believe architecture is a collaborative process and I can't not agree at all with bosch. This attitude that the only person in the office who knows what they are doing is the few people at the top is seriously dated and it is reflected in the work those kinds of offices produce. The best firms I have worked at recognized that everyone in the office can and should have a contribution to make to the project... a contribution larger than just pumping out CD sets per the bosses orders. Bosch's definition of a "team environment" sounds a lot like a dictatorship... count me out on that one.
Right... Also... Same goes for crits... Always put things in a way that brings them along for the decision, keep em on your side and let them see that it is their design decision too... This is key to design and working and also communicating to clients... If your client says something you like, latch on to that comment and do something awesome with it, and they will love it...
Actually design IMHO is all about working with people, valuing the insights of others, winning their trust through collaboration and keeping them on board... Play as a team, be a little bit humble but do the work and you will earn peoples trust and they will depend on you and you can also depend on them...
one thing i'll add, in time you'll learn your boss's tendencies, strengths, weaknesses and motivations as well as what is feasible, cost-effective and what the client wants. With this knowledge you'll know when you should push an issue and when you should let it go. As things stand, it doesn't sound like you're in this position yet. So best to file this away for future reference, maybe work out the change on your own time for your own education, but accept the situation right now.
And consider yourself lucky b/c it sounds like your boss respects your opinion, is polite and professional, and handled the situation very diplomatically.
At any firm be it large or small, design or developer driven, famous [or infamous] or obscure, eventually the employee will have worked there long enough to question why certain things are done a certain way.
That questioning could be met with two responses from those who operate or own the practice: it could be encouraged, or it could be disgarded.
There's a couple of questions then that come out of this: If the questioning is encouraged then the principle/whomeverisinchargeatthemoment sees it as a valid question and welcomes the additional thought: therefore is this because the question aligns with the firm's adenda and direction? Or because the office is built on open discussion [unlikely in my opinion for various, not all negative, reasons] or because the 'principle' sees it as aligning with her own thoughts? Etc.
If it is disgarded without interrogation, then there could be many reasons, but my guess is that most often it just fits into the 'its just not what we do here' mantra. It just isn't a part of the particular firm's agenda, though it may be perfectly suitable at another office. [The worst case scenario in this instance is if the 'principle' has taken it personal, or if she has her own agenda irrespective of the office's. Then it's impossible to shed any light on the office at large.]
Then the employee has a value judgement to make: Is it more valuable for him or herself in the long run to stick it out and gain experience which can then be applied to another office, or his/her own office in the future? Full knowing of course there may be a heck of a lot he or she doesnt agree with to come?
Or do the differences in design agenda inform a decision to seek greener pastures?
For example, at my last office, I didn't agree with a lot of my superior's decisions because I thought they were simply bad designers who cared much more about money than architecture. And so I left.
Now I work in an office where I still disagree sometimes with my superiors, but I'm willing to let it go because I respect their design agenda and ability and sometimes I am just plain wrong through inexperience. However, I still find it valuable to work there because I'm learning the things I want to learn [how to put together a building, and how to manage consultants]. Likewise, I might not tolerate the same construct were I not learning.
Sep 14, 10 2:56 pm ·
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Good experience vs. good design
I've been out of grad school for about 2.5 years now, and during that time was unemployed for 8 months before I found my current position at a small firm. The firm is doing well enough, and I'm getting some great experience with how a small firm runs. However, I'm not too thrilled with the location (a bit of a long commute) and the type of work.
In a recent discussion with my supervisor about our project, I pointed out an area where aligning two walls would have helped the space read better. She explained to me that while it was great that I saw that, and while it would make a good detail, the layout as she had it drawn would not allow for the walls to be aligned. She said that it was great that I was thinking like "an architect's architect" but that the client wouldn't notice that detail. I disagreed saying that while non-architects don't necessarily know why they like what they see, they know they like it. I also suggested that we revisit the layout to see if both design and programmatic goals could be reached. The suggestion was disregarded.
The whole event left me very disillusioned with real-world design process. I’m not sure if it’s the profession that’s like this or just one this architect. I also don’t know if I’m being too naive about the real world and overreacting, or if I’m right to stand up to this kind of architectural half-assery.
I’m now considering a change of employers. Should I suffer through the poor design in order to see a still-pretty-interesting project through, while getting some good experience with how to run a small firm? Or do I look for another position at another firm with decreased access to experience, but with work that will help me mature as a designer? And how does the current recession factor into all of this?
sounds like you are in a healthy environment - you asserted your opinion on a project and instead of going nuts, your boss handled it pretty well - not perfect, but pretty well...
IMO - you've just been told that they aren't going to pay you for work that's already been done. and it's up to you to judge whether or not they'd appreciate or be offended by you taking the initiative to rework the layout on your own time. sounds like if you simply reassured your supervisor that you did this on off hours just to see if it could be done they might be annoyed, but the worst that could happen is that they simply reject what you had done and move on to something else.
if anything, it's good practice for you to rework designs outside of work - that's how i came to appreciate what I once thought was mediocre design.
I've actually been asking myself a similar question lately, although I am coming at it from not having a job at all. My question is if any experience is worthwhile... i.e. should I take just any job regardless of how poor the design/architecture is or should I hold out for something that aligns better with my background and experience.
Which is worse, a large gap in employment history or having a pretty low-end office on your resume?
Do you live in the tri-state area? I will gladly take your position once you switch employers.
Low-end?
The only thing that really matters is profitability unless you work for the government or a non-profit-- but even then, many governments are starting to realize that it is sink or swim (i.e., your population will absolutely move and relocate if you're giving them shit).
You can do crappy work and make no money.
You can do amazing work and make no money.
You can do crappy work and make money.
You can do amazing work and make money.
Ideally, whatever you do should be on budget, on schedule with the highest possible fee you can extract from your clients.
If I'm trying to sell myself in a money-tight world, I'd rather be worried about proving that projects I worked on made actual money rather than them being pretty.
I'm just having a hard time getting excited about adapting existing Walgreens plans for whatever site they are currently developing.
Listen to toasteroven, and keep your job, assuming you are still learning things there.
Within a few years you will likely have learned all you can learn at this firm, and hopefully the economy can be netter - then you'll know it's time to move on.
Having been through pure design-process hell before… having been embarrassed, bullied, threatened, belittled...having had ideas stolen, drawings changed, exhibits secretly not shown to client, etc...
A few things I have learned:
If you design something for 6', someone else will say 8'
If you had designed for 8', they will say it should be 6'
Learn to choose your battles: it’s not worth fighting about a small detail in a project you are not fully passionate about...not always but sometimes
All experience is good experience and it will all come back to help you later.
Always do what is asked of you perfectly first and then show your options.
Creative ownership is like money, with all its good and bad..it can be rationed and distributed, awarded and stolen..it can make people envious
Unless the person you are working with or under is of the undisputed genius of Frank Lloyd Wright, there are no 'chosen people' in Architecture or design. Regardless of what they think or how they talk and act.
Everyone has their own tastes..you, your coworkers, the client..there is no one right way or answer..often people (especially in creative/artistic design) have a lot of anxiety about the validity of their own work and position...so making 'better' suggestions threatens their career.
And I think most important,
If you feel strongly about your design and it is rejected or it is not feasible, save the work..save all your options for a project...you can actually build an alternate world of options...
I could write a book about all this...
cherith - if you do any kind of mixed-used projects you should feel grateful that the client retained you to lay out whatever is going into one of the tenant spaces. you'll understand what I'm talking about once you experience having to share your drawings with another architect.
What area do you live in? If there are enough jobs that you would consider changing employers because of this kind of disagreement, I'd like to move there!
You are in a delusional fantasy world if you are seriously considering leaving a job over something like this. Your attitude is exactly what is wrong with people in this profession. There is no humility, no humble-ness, little respect for your boss. No understanding that there are limits and that it is a job like any other where you must say 'yes ma'am' and do what you are told.
Good lord it is frightening what these schools are turning out these days.
Did you even consider the fee and time it would cost?
This is a RECESSION in a profession oversaturated with ego maniacs - a crap load of people looking for jobs. You think it is that easy to switch to a new job?!
If you want to design your own stuff start your own firm. Until then, take direction well, understand that some people may indeed know better than you, and realize you get nowhere if you cant work in a team environment.
i wouldn't put it quite the way Bosch has, but there is the possibility that your boss knows what she is doing...and you don't. just keep that in the back of your mind.
it is also possible that your boss is simply not interested in making the kind of architecture you want to do and so you focus on details and she focuses on landscape or whatever. if that is the case it is worth trying to understand why she took the decision she did. was it really just laziness? lack of time and fees? or something more subtle? There is a good chance you just are not well enough informed to pass judgment.
it is easy to discount the people in charge, and perhaps in this case you really have caught it all and got it right. BUT, if there is something to learn then take the opportunity. Being a boss is not easy and if you want to be one yourself it could be worth your time to pay attention now and learn what you can. Later on when some young person comes to you and asks why things are going the way they are you will hopefully be able to answer as your boss did (fairly good answer in my opinion), or even better.
quit if you like, don't expect better. just as bosch points out this is a job based on co-operation, very often with people who you don't and can't agree with. learning to deal with that is very impt part of being a real architect.
on second thought it is part of any job you will ever have.
I just want to point out that it is perfectly normal for someone who's been working for a couple years to really start questioning their boss's design ability - it happens within "mediocre" offices up to the starchitects (who do real projects)... it's kind of the entry-level hump... the great reconciling of real-world design process with what we learned in school...
if you leave, you'll just end up feeling the same way after a few months at your new firm (maybe add a few weeks if it's a bigger name)... it takes a while to get over it, but my trick was to literally rework designs that came out of my office - I learned pretty quickly that my bosses might actually know their shit - especially when something comes up later on in the project.
are you going to get CA experience? you know nothing until you've seen at least a few projects through construction - those weird material choices and odd design moves your boss made? might not seem so strange after you see it going up.
On the other hand, your problem may also just be a matter of approach... This might work better: don't *tell* people what you think is better, vs what they've already drawn, that is sort of just pointing at it and saying it like it is ... Instead, just *do it* and after the fact, after you've moved that wall, if it looks better and works better nobody will say anything, and they nay just trust in your judgment... Always do what you are told, and then do the other better thing both and show what you've done, never talk about what you will do... Just do it, nobody will tell you not to design it if you've gotten the work done and saved them the time in advance, made it better already... The client and your designer / manager will be happy and will not complain... Just be sure you don't rub it in their face, you need to be a team player.. :p
The trick is doing it first, then talk about it afterwards if it comes up...
I agree with bRink. It's always best to do it the way you were told first and if you see something that could be improved, draw that option up as well. Then present it in a way that will allow your boss to feel as if they made the decision. So instead of presenting it as "I did this because it works better" which basically trumps the authority of your boss you need to offer it as an alternative... explain why you did what you did in non-partial language and then offer your boss the option to pick which design they want to go forward with. You might have to do the other option on your time so make sure it is something you really think will offer a significant improvement.
Personally I believe architecture is a collaborative process and I can't not agree at all with bosch. This attitude that the only person in the office who knows what they are doing is the few people at the top is seriously dated and it is reflected in the work those kinds of offices produce. The best firms I have worked at recognized that everyone in the office can and should have a contribution to make to the project... a contribution larger than just pumping out CD sets per the bosses orders. Bosch's definition of a "team environment" sounds a lot like a dictatorship... count me out on that one.
Right... Also... Same goes for crits... Always put things in a way that brings them along for the decision, keep em on your side and let them see that it is their design decision too... This is key to design and working and also communicating to clients... If your client says something you like, latch on to that comment and do something awesome with it, and they will love it...
Actually design IMHO is all about working with people, valuing the insights of others, winning their trust through collaboration and keeping them on board... Play as a team, be a little bit humble but do the work and you will earn peoples trust and they will depend on you and you can also depend on them...
comments here are very good
one thing i'll add, in time you'll learn your boss's tendencies, strengths, weaknesses and motivations as well as what is feasible, cost-effective and what the client wants. With this knowledge you'll know when you should push an issue and when you should let it go. As things stand, it doesn't sound like you're in this position yet. So best to file this away for future reference, maybe work out the change on your own time for your own education, but accept the situation right now.
And consider yourself lucky b/c it sounds like your boss respects your opinion, is polite and professional, and handled the situation very diplomatically.
At any firm be it large or small, design or developer driven, famous [or infamous] or obscure, eventually the employee will have worked there long enough to question why certain things are done a certain way.
That questioning could be met with two responses from those who operate or own the practice: it could be encouraged, or it could be disgarded.
There's a couple of questions then that come out of this: If the questioning is encouraged then the principle/whomeverisinchargeatthemoment sees it as a valid question and welcomes the additional thought: therefore is this because the question aligns with the firm's adenda and direction? Or because the office is built on open discussion [unlikely in my opinion for various, not all negative, reasons] or because the 'principle' sees it as aligning with her own thoughts? Etc.
If it is disgarded without interrogation, then there could be many reasons, but my guess is that most often it just fits into the 'its just not what we do here' mantra. It just isn't a part of the particular firm's agenda, though it may be perfectly suitable at another office. [The worst case scenario in this instance is if the 'principle' has taken it personal, or if she has her own agenda irrespective of the office's. Then it's impossible to shed any light on the office at large.]
Then the employee has a value judgement to make: Is it more valuable for him or herself in the long run to stick it out and gain experience which can then be applied to another office, or his/her own office in the future? Full knowing of course there may be a heck of a lot he or she doesnt agree with to come?
Or do the differences in design agenda inform a decision to seek greener pastures?
For example, at my last office, I didn't agree with a lot of my superior's decisions because I thought they were simply bad designers who cared much more about money than architecture. And so I left.
Now I work in an office where I still disagree sometimes with my superiors, but I'm willing to let it go because I respect their design agenda and ability and sometimes I am just plain wrong through inexperience. However, I still find it valuable to work there because I'm learning the things I want to learn [how to put together a building, and how to manage consultants]. Likewise, I might not tolerate the same construct were I not learning.
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