Architects are skilled trade people too, and a lot of Architects are finding themselves in the same situation as the engineers being scouted by Carlisle.
From the comments section,
"Here it is right from the horses mouth. Why become an engineer for a job that pays $50K when you can earn more money working as a school custodian scrubbing grafitti from wall lockers and scraping chewing gum off the floor."
"$50K for technical trades person, go to hell"
"$50K/year for an seasoned engineer, or any skilled trade for that matter, is an embarrassment, no matter where in the US you are located."
"dominickspez | Aug 20, 2010 04:50 PM ET
you neglect to mention those $50,000 jobs were $80,000 jobs before the layoffs and now your trying to fill them on the cheap. 50 thou won't cover the move, student loans and mortgage so --maybe time to pay up a little say halfway to $65 thou-then they can eat"
jonnyboiler: It's very hard to give up a lifestyle for a decent regular income job. However, I'm sure there are counselors and therapists out there to help people put the lattes and clubbing behind them. I bet $50k jobs in the Dakotas could buy a nice $125,000 home that would cost $300,000+ in many cities, and still leave enough money to pay for a three or four round trip airline tickets back to civilization every year."
LOL.
Okay, I can get why people obviously do not see culturally eye-to-eye... But do these country bumpkins do not realize that a growing percentage of this country's GDP is latte and clubbing?
I love being called "entitled" because I don't want to go to barn dances and eat pease pudding.
"50 thou won't cover the move, student loans and mortgage"
That really depends on where you live and your budgetary needs. I think the article mentioned this particular jobs being in small towns, which usually means lower cost of living... cheaper homes, less commute time, cheaper expenses. Even in a some mid-sized cities, $50k can get you pretty far. Granted, you are probably not going to be able to afford a brand-new 5,000+sf McMansion and a new BMW, which are exactly the people that contributed to this mess to begin with. LA, New York... that might be a different discussion, although I do know people doing ok living in those places with much less for salary.
I feel like half the country needs to get a one semester class on personal economics to learn the lesson of living within your means. Just because the Kardashians can spend money like it's blowing out their ass doesn't mean you can (or should). I think people start their budget with unnecessary expenses first and then work backwards from there are see they don't have enough in the budget to pay the bills.
Yet another pile of CNBC spin. "Oh the economy is great, this CEO can't even find people to take his $50k jobs."
Truth is that *if* those jobs exist, they more than likely want experience. Same thing in Architecture. A job pre-bust that would've asked for 3-5 years experience now asks for 10-15. Nothing about the job has changed except for a higher standard given a deeper pool of applicants. Problem is, $50k sounds nice at 3 years exp - not so much at 15.
Nevermind that the job is in the Dakotas. I know the oil industry has to pay more to get talented people to work in the desolate places they operate. Same should apply here.
for an individual $50 may be okay if you live within your means, have no debt and no medical conditions and only modest savings goals
but not if you have/are planning a family or hope to send them to college or take them on vacations or buy them computers, etc --- 50,000 + family, even with no debt and in a smaller city or rural place is not that much, and if you add debt or savings or a medical condition and/or aspirations for sending kids to college, it is not much, no matter where in the US you live
I do agree with aquapura about the experience standards having spiked quite a bit. The majority of the job posts I have seen for architecture have all been for 10+ years of experience with a job description that sounds pretty much like 3-4 years experience. It seems unlikely that offices would want to hire so many senior level positions unless they are hoping to get tons of experience for nothing in pay. I can't imagine being an office like that... everyone would essentially be a project manager with zero support staff to actually get the work done.
What will be awesome/not awesome is if/when the economy rebounds and all of these people who took the low-paying jobs to get by jump ship. I think sometime in the next few years we are going to see a lot of job-hopping as people move around to get back into the positions they should have been hired for years ago.
before the .com crash I was making $90k as an Art Director.
I am again looking for work in the graphic / new media field where there are jobs available in the $70k - $90k range. I am starting to send out resumes this week...we will see. The amount of jobs available eclipses anything even remotely interesting on the aia job boards. beyond depressing.
Bye Architecture. You have become incompatible with my needs. Total design it is. Continuing to push my coding and scripting skills during grad school was the smartest thing I could have done.
I have been thinking about going back into the dirtiness that is print design. At least I've learned enough rendering a modeling skills to punch the pants off some layout artists.
Having a shtick in print design (other than 'purist' print design) seemed to work for a lot of people. And being as someone who can't draw anything non-terrifying, I didn't have very many options.
I started doing web work in 1995...taught myself. At the same time did tons of screenprinting for bands. All self taught at that point.
In Arch with all of my experience I am worth less than $50k. In graphics without my arch education I was worth $90k....hmmmmm...If you are not a single, rich, hooked up academic (further adding to the pretense of the field in comparison to other design fields), or stupid - I see no reason why you would stay in the field...unless of course it is, "your life's passion," then by all means...indulge in the suffrage. But please do not complain about it.
The article and most of the comments there are pure BS, unless you have never left the Upper West Side.
This is the best comment:
"Geckos | Aug 23, 2010 11:23 AM ET
For those of you who don't know - In 2008, the average Household Income in the U.S. was $48,000 - Some of you folks who are living in LALA land need to travel to middle of Alabama or Mississippi some time and see how REAL Americans live and work
"I can't imagine being an office like that... everyone would essentially be a project manager with zero support staff to actually get the work done."
cherith - it's more like, those firms are hiring experienced people to do it all - not just management of projects but to do the document production as well. who wouldn't want someone with the experience of a 10 year vet also doing the work? it (ideally) gets done quicker, more completely, and helps try to manage the fee reductions we're getting hit with by owners.
yeah, it blows for someone who was sitting comfy at a higher salary to take a proverbial step back, but my guess is that a significant number of the people we're describing were mostly coasting anyways, probably more than they'd be able to admit to themselves.
I don't know. I've worked at an office where once someone was given "Project Architect" status on a project. they suddenly decided it was beneath them to do anything remotely production oriented. Project usually ended up with 3-5 people all feeling as if they were in charge of the project... generally this lead to conflicting information and a totally lack of coordination of job tasks, leaving the 1-3 people who didn't feel so entitled to frequently have to redo things.
It was pretty much like working for Initech.... TPS reports and all.
Sometimes I think the whole point of the lack of architectural education and training is to essentially make the 90% of the industry that is basically redundant and / or worthless, easily expendable. The 10% that "get it" got it long before anyone told them what "it" is and will always do it when it needs to get done. Getting paid for it is whole other story but at least its not just us getting it in the ass this time around.
BTW Cherith, calling people "Project Architects" is a way to make the fancy degree newbies saddled with debt and low pay feel special and keep them from revolting before their 2 years are up. Wal*Mart does this too, it calls it's terminally fucked employees "associates". It makes them forget about the leaking roof and moldy insulation back in the trailer park where their teenage daughter is getting knocked up - again.
^ wish that was the case where I was at. I think the opposite was true where I was... can all the lower level staff and only keep licensed/LEED/experience+ because they are more marketable.
In my current office I am called "Project Architect" and I barely do any production work these days... should I worry? I have about 3 years experience btw.
$50K a Year Jobs
Architects are skilled trade people too, and a lot of Architects are finding themselves in the same situation as the engineers being scouted by Carlisle.
From the comments section,
"Here it is right from the horses mouth. Why become an engineer for a job that pays $50K when you can earn more money working as a school custodian scrubbing grafitti from wall lockers and scraping chewing gum off the floor."
"$50K for technical trades person, go to hell"
"$50K/year for an seasoned engineer, or any skilled trade for that matter, is an embarrassment, no matter where in the US you are located."
I would be pretty happy making $50k a year right now.
Yes, I will take one of these $50k a year jobs no one wants.
"dominickspez | Aug 20, 2010 04:50 PM ET
you neglect to mention those $50,000 jobs were $80,000 jobs before the layoffs and now your trying to fill them on the cheap. 50 thou won't cover the move, student loans and mortgage so --maybe time to pay up a little say halfway to $65 thou-then they can eat"
"OakTree | Aug 20, 2010 04:55 PM ET
jonnyboiler: It's very hard to give up a lifestyle for a decent regular income job. However, I'm sure there are counselors and therapists out there to help people put the lattes and clubbing behind them. I bet $50k jobs in the Dakotas could buy a nice $125,000 home that would cost $300,000+ in many cities, and still leave enough money to pay for a three or four round trip airline tickets back to civilization every year."
LOL.
Okay, I can get why people obviously do not see culturally eye-to-eye... But do these country bumpkins do not realize that a growing percentage of this country's GDP is latte and clubbing?
I love being called "entitled" because I don't want to go to barn dances and eat pease pudding.
"50 thou won't cover the move, student loans and mortgage"
That really depends on where you live and your budgetary needs. I think the article mentioned this particular jobs being in small towns, which usually means lower cost of living... cheaper homes, less commute time, cheaper expenses. Even in a some mid-sized cities, $50k can get you pretty far. Granted, you are probably not going to be able to afford a brand-new 5,000+sf McMansion and a new BMW, which are exactly the people that contributed to this mess to begin with. LA, New York... that might be a different discussion, although I do know people doing ok living in those places with much less for salary.
I feel like half the country needs to get a one semester class on personal economics to learn the lesson of living within your means. Just because the Kardashians can spend money like it's blowing out their ass doesn't mean you can (or should). I think people start their budget with unnecessary expenses first and then work backwards from there are see they don't have enough in the budget to pay the bills.
Yet another pile of CNBC spin. "Oh the economy is great, this CEO can't even find people to take his $50k jobs."
Truth is that *if* those jobs exist, they more than likely want experience. Same thing in Architecture. A job pre-bust that would've asked for 3-5 years experience now asks for 10-15. Nothing about the job has changed except for a higher standard given a deeper pool of applicants. Problem is, $50k sounds nice at 3 years exp - not so much at 15.
Nevermind that the job is in the Dakotas. I know the oil industry has to pay more to get talented people to work in the desolate places they operate. Same should apply here.
for an individual $50 may be okay if you live within your means, have no debt and no medical conditions and only modest savings goals
but not if you have/are planning a family or hope to send them to college or take them on vacations or buy them computers, etc --- 50,000 + family, even with no debt and in a smaller city or rural place is not that much, and if you add debt or savings or a medical condition and/or aspirations for sending kids to college, it is not much, no matter where in the US you live
The most I've ever made is a $50,000 salary. That was before the bubble burst.
I do agree with aquapura about the experience standards having spiked quite a bit. The majority of the job posts I have seen for architecture have all been for 10+ years of experience with a job description that sounds pretty much like 3-4 years experience. It seems unlikely that offices would want to hire so many senior level positions unless they are hoping to get tons of experience for nothing in pay. I can't imagine being an office like that... everyone would essentially be a project manager with zero support staff to actually get the work done.
What will be awesome/not awesome is if/when the economy rebounds and all of these people who took the low-paying jobs to get by jump ship. I think sometime in the next few years we are going to see a lot of job-hopping as people move around to get back into the positions they should have been hired for years ago.
before the .com crash I was making $90k as an Art Director.
I am again looking for work in the graphic / new media field where there are jobs available in the $70k - $90k range. I am starting to send out resumes this week...we will see. The amount of jobs available eclipses anything even remotely interesting on the aia job boards. beyond depressing.
Bye Architecture. You have become incompatible with my needs. Total design it is. Continuing to push my coding and scripting skills during grad school was the smartest thing I could have done.
In Austin just knowing HTML, CSS, and the Adobe suite well can get you $30 - $50 an hour. And that is low end work, not overly complex work.
I think the future is an integration of all the creative fields as media and material merge more and more...anyway...another topic.
@chupacabra:
I have been thinking about going back into the dirtiness that is print design. At least I've learned enough rendering a modeling skills to punch the pants off some layout artists.
Having a shtick in print design (other than 'purist' print design) seemed to work for a lot of people. And being as someone who can't draw anything non-terrifying, I didn't have very many options.
We had a 40-50 year old licensed Architect interview for a %35,000 year internship
I started doing web work in 1995...taught myself. At the same time did tons of screenprinting for bands. All self taught at that point.
In Arch with all of my experience I am worth less than $50k. In graphics without my arch education I was worth $90k....hmmmmm...If you are not a single, rich, hooked up academic (further adding to the pretense of the field in comparison to other design fields), or stupid - I see no reason why you would stay in the field...unless of course it is, "your life's passion," then by all means...indulge in the suffrage. But please do not complain about it.
The article and most of the comments there are pure BS, unless you have never left the Upper West Side.
This is the best comment:
"Geckos | Aug 23, 2010 11:23 AM ET
For those of you who don't know - In 2008, the average Household Income in the U.S. was $48,000 - Some of you folks who are living in LALA land need to travel to middle of Alabama or Mississippi some time and see how REAL Americans live and work
Money doesn't grow on trees!! "
"I can't imagine being an office like that... everyone would essentially be a project manager with zero support staff to actually get the work done."
cherith - it's more like, those firms are hiring experienced people to do it all - not just management of projects but to do the document production as well. who wouldn't want someone with the experience of a 10 year vet also doing the work? it (ideally) gets done quicker, more completely, and helps try to manage the fee reductions we're getting hit with by owners.
yeah, it blows for someone who was sitting comfy at a higher salary to take a proverbial step back, but my guess is that a significant number of the people we're describing were mostly coasting anyways, probably more than they'd be able to admit to themselves.
I don't know. I've worked at an office where once someone was given "Project Architect" status on a project. they suddenly decided it was beneath them to do anything remotely production oriented. Project usually ended up with 3-5 people all feeling as if they were in charge of the project... generally this lead to conflicting information and a totally lack of coordination of job tasks, leaving the 1-3 people who didn't feel so entitled to frequently have to redo things.
It was pretty much like working for Initech.... TPS reports and all.
Sometimes I think the whole point of the lack of architectural education and training is to essentially make the 90% of the industry that is basically redundant and / or worthless, easily expendable. The 10% that "get it" got it long before anyone told them what "it" is and will always do it when it needs to get done. Getting paid for it is whole other story but at least its not just us getting it in the ass this time around.
BTW Cherith, calling people "Project Architects" is a way to make the fancy degree newbies saddled with debt and low pay feel special and keep them from revolting before their 2 years are up. Wal*Mart does this too, it calls it's terminally fucked employees "associates". It makes them forget about the leaking roof and moldy insulation back in the trailer park where their teenage daughter is getting knocked up - again.
cherith - i don't disagree. those were the first people canned, though. at least at the smarter firms...
^ wish that was the case where I was at. I think the opposite was true where I was... can all the lower level staff and only keep licensed/LEED/experience+ because they are more marketable.
In my current office I am called "Project Architect" and I barely do any production work these days... should I worry? I have about 3 years experience btw.
are you licensed? Then how does that fly?
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