Hi this is my first post here although i have been following this for so long ..
Anyway i am holding a BS in Architecture and around 7 years architecture experience and because of our economic situations i am planning to move to Japan with my wife (she is Japanese)
By the time i learn Japanese (i calculate 4 years to be ggod enough to be at negotiation level ) i will be 37 years old.
During the meantime i am planning to go to japan and work in whatever i can find , since i am sure that no architecture studio or construction company will hire me with my limited japanese skills
what are you thoughts for those that work, worked, live lived or know about Japan
Not a great film, but it does provide some insight into Japanese workplace culture that is most certainly different from what have probably experienced.
There are international firms in Japan, so it might not be so difficult to land something.
You need to think carefully about this kusaina-san. Sure, things will start off magically. You'll get a job selling American Kita-Kata bars at the local fish market, and you'll quickly learn Japanese phrases like "Stop throwing rocks at me!" and "I'm a human being too." But then your wife will meet a British dude who's even pastier white and dorkier than you. They'll run off to Mt. Fuji while you are left alone to wonder the mean streets of Hentai district (read: all of Japan). Desperate to make some money to buy a ticket back home, you'll meet a man whom everyone calls "oji-chan". At first it seems you only need to turn a few tricks before you can go home, but next thing you know oji-chan has your passport. Your life just turned into a Japanese game show from hell, only the tapes of the show are sold under the stalls. Eventually you'll turn old, and be traded to Singapore for a Canadian stuck in a similar situation there. Once there, you'll have to start from scratch learning a whole new language. You'll eventually befriend a retired US general on 'vacation' in Singapore, who'll take pity of you, and will buy you the ticket home. For a few favors, of course...
This story happens to clueless white people every day in Japan!
the economy here is not really so great. some places are hiring but many of the international offices laid off a lot of staff, just like the USA.
not speaking japanese is an issue especially if you plan to be here for awhile. if you actually study i don't see why it would take more than a year or two to become quite proficient though. it isn't that hard.
if you are good and willing to work for free you might be able to get an internship with a starchitect and turn that into a real job over time.
i hear kuma is hiring but the selection process involves a day long marathon design charette mixed in with actual interviews. which is possibly a good indication of the hours. to be blunt it is a real competitive entrance process.
if not architecture?
it used to be possible to teach english. that has become more competitive lately, but is still theoretically possible. a lot of companies went out of business last few years however and it is becoming a job that requires actual degrees in education if you want to make proper coin. still, not a bad job. you will most likely never learn japanese though. It is not the kind of job that requires it in daily life, and really i can name the number of english teachers i know who who speak japanese on 2 fingers.
other jobs i don't know. i have friends who work in factories and say the money is good. they don't speak much japanese, and don't plan to learn so i guess that is good indication of the fact it is unnecessary for the work...
a lot of companies here have age limits for hiring. ie, no one over 35 etc. you are required in applications to state age, gender and include a photo of yourself. that is just the way it is. so if you really want an architecture job you should start looking right away not later on.
also, do expect to start at the bottom. experience is not really counted here. every time you change job you will begin at the bottom and move up as a factor of time not ability. it is also just one of those things. culture here is almost nothing like the usa even though there is coca cola and mcdonalds all over.
Steelstuds, just want to point out that Singaporean speaks english. So if you end up in Singapore, at least you don't need to study another new language.
"Of the 63 languages analyzed, the five most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean". The Foreign Service Institute considers Japanese to be the most difficult of this group.[3]"
I hear that the economy is Japan is worse than here in the States... New graduates entering the workforce, only 60% are able to find employment and those who do, even if the graduate from Tokyo University (the equivalent of Harvard) are landing in part time jobs at Uniqlo (the equivalent of Gap)... :(
didn't know that BenC. good thing no one told me ;-)
didn't know that either bRink. it doesn't feel as bad as in the usa. all my japanese friends are getting jobs (i went to u of tokyo as did bulk of my friends). foreign friends are not finding it as easy. mostly they are leaving for home. which is how it has always been. no one stays in japan, not really.
the thing is we have been in a recession of sorts since i came here in the early 90's. so it isn't like the economy has gotten bad, it simply refrained from recovering. there was a bit of a blip there because of usa economy roaring away and it looked like the lost decade might be behind us. now it looks as though we will stay lost for awhile. now japan is the 3rd largest economy in the world instead of 2nd. whatever that means.
anyway, the economy is not shit hot and life for foreigners is difficult to begin with (you will NEVER be treated as equal here, never ever going to happen) which means some special coping mechanisms are required. not to make anyone scared of finding work here but it is not going to be easy. outside of tokyo i think it will be even harder...
its different than in usa and canada. there is kind of direct logic - the racism is overt and purposeful.
here its just an inability to believe anyone not japanese can speak the language or act japanese. not racism exactly, just a sort of unthinking shunning. people will still be nice to you though.
What you mean to tell me that here i have am enjoying the usual racism that is the norm for my entire life here in the USA, like a sucker, when i could have been living the dream in Japan.
in north america and europe it is hate based. here we foreign folk simply don't register properly. not hated not loved...racism by neglect? not sure if its racism if there is no hate involved...i certainly won't complain, cuz being an alien can be positive in some situations.
it works other way too. sometimes westerners are treated much better than they should be.
ill take racism by neglect any day of the week, every time i take a walk down michigan ave. with my beautiful wife who is white we get all kinds of looks, this city has not caught up to its architecture in terms of cultural advancement it is so segregated. Other than that it is ok.
I you put your heart in getting a job there, you will get a job. I recommend you to listen to audios and read books by the motivational speaker Brian Tracy:)
hi guys thanks for all the answers, i am sorry i haven't been able to answer .
Thanks Singlefin for the movie , I'll watch it.
I heard about the racism and agism in Japan, that is what scares the most of myself. if i ever will get a job in an architecture firm or if will make enough for a living.
I heard that foreigners have a really hard time renting an apartment even if their wife is Japanese.
I didn´t feel that much racism in US towards me, i was able to interact pretty well at many aspect of the design construction process.
Don Quixote , i dont know which one is worst ,m because the racism by neglect in Japan , is because many japanese don´t accept they are being racist or that the discrimination is that bad. therefore is very difficoult to change..
In US many non white people born in US and is assimilated by most of society except thTV and that is bad , but in Japan , 99 percent of people born in Japan is japanese
exactly don quixote. i can't say this place is racism free but its of such a particular type that i don't feel properly that i can complain.
i don't know the answer to that one kusaina (btw, you meant to call yourself stinky, or is your wife messing with you?)
i know single architects who were paid $1400/month. they were licensed with m.arch. japanese. my rent is not much less than that, so no it isn't enough. or not for me and my family anyway. that said, it is fairly standard for offices here to pay less money to single people than to married folk. women will also tend to be paid less (and can get away with working shorter days). work hours are very very long in most places so also you should expect to not see your wife very much unless you are very firm with your employer (this is not as easy as you might think).
i never worked for those kinds of wages. largely through luck in retrospect. i was paid very well in fact, including time and a half for overtime and double-time for overtime after 11.00 pm (= almost EVERY night). that is so rare that i know NOBODY who was ever paid that way. i also was given substantial bonuses, which is more normal as long as the economy is good.
if you are married it is possible you will be paid more than your single colleagues for the same job. either that or the employer will ask you if you are planning to support your wife on your wages or not, and possibly choose to not hire you if you answer the former (this is what happened to a friend of mine).
having said all that things are not all that bad. if you are coming to tokyo this is just like new york city or london. cities of opportunity. 33 million people all working in one city generates a lot of energy and there is usually some kind of job to be had if you are persistent. just don't expect it to be any more easier than in the usa.
about renting an apartment, no that is not a problem especially since your wife is japanese. she will know how to deal with the key money and the other stuff that doesn't exist in the western world.
about age, don't sweat it, but really if you want to be an architect here then start looking for work doing that, not something else. if it doesn't work out then can always hunt down a teaching job (english, not architecture)
the starchitects want english speakers. if you are good. which is the tough bit, but hell that is why they are starchitects...
other offices that might like an english speaker include jun mitsui, possibly takenaka...klein dytham of course, perhaps fumihiko maki...
Jump and everyone thanks a lot for the answers, me and my wife are thinking right now what to do , because here the things are not that easy for us , an din the long term doesn't look so promising....
how difficoult is to go from and b.s. in Architecture to a license in Japan , how long takes the goverment to answer you ??
license you can take anytime if you have a master degree (in any field). with bachelor degree (in any field) you need to work in office for 2 years. with no degree you need to work for 7 years in office.
license and education system are not tied together so whatever you study is not important at all. there is no stigma for not going to school either. if you can pass the exam then you are architect, story over.
the exam is 2 parter and you can take it i think only in july every year. miss the exam wait a year to do it next time. that is not such an issue since offices don't really care all that much if you have license. in any case it is not going to be recognised by other countries so you might not want to go through the process unless you are going to open an office. better to get a license in your own country if you are planning to go back someday.
also you will of course need to do the tests in japanese. english is not part of japanese culture except amongst expats, so don't expect any slack in that regard.
sorry to be debbi-downer. the upside is that really you don't need license to get a job and as a foreigner the employers will not expect you to have one or get one...japanese staff will be held to higher standards than you.
Im not gone lie to you but reading your post was extremely exhausted (to say the least). I know things are tough around here but believe me, things will get even tougher when u move there. Leaving USA should only be limited to vacation (I think they should have a law on that, including banding outsourcing jobs)..So in short. Do not move, stay here and and wear ur raincoat.
Im not gone lie to you but reading your post was extremely exhausted (to say the least). I know things are tough around here but believe me, things will get even tougher when u move there. Leaving USA should only be limited to vacation (I think they should have a law on that, including banding outsourcing jobs)..So in short. Do not move, stay here and and wear ur raincoat.
rather different i thought, but i haven't gone through it all the way (i am canadian and did m.arch there but most of my professional experience is in UK and japan).
anyway, good luck. if you do make the jump let me know. i am happy to offer advice about living here, although i guess your wife has it covered.
Just catching up on this thread. I'm hurtling toward 50, myself, with a half-dozen semesters of Japanese tucked in between architecture gigs. Still not ready for JLPT.
Similar to Stinky-san, family issues kept me in the US during my 30s. I had to pass on an offer to house-sit in the outskirts of Kyoto for a year in 2002. Ugh.
Makes me think there must be another angle, frinstance, this couple in Fukuoka exporting contemporary Japanese housewares: http://www.analoguelife.com/En/aboutus_E.html
certainly, a lot of hustling involved to keep an online shop going, but they're their own boss.
I'm just a licensed working stiff, 20 years out of architecture school. Learned seismic and sustainability on the job. (SF Bay Area) Japanese lessons are a night-school thing.
37 year old , too old for japanese architecture ???
Hi this is my first post here although i have been following this for so long ..
Anyway i am holding a BS in Architecture and around 7 years architecture experience and because of our economic situations i am planning to move to Japan with my wife (she is Japanese)
By the time i learn Japanese (i calculate 4 years to be ggod enough to be at negotiation level ) i will be 37 years old.
During the meantime i am planning to go to japan and work in whatever i can find , since i am sure that no architecture studio or construction company will hire me with my limited japanese skills
what are you thoughts for those that work, worked, live lived or know about Japan
Thanks a lot
i recommend you watch this film: Fear and Trembling (it's on netflix)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318725/
Not a great film, but it does provide some insight into Japanese workplace culture that is most certainly different from what have probably experienced.
There are international firms in Japan, so it might not be so difficult to land something.
Good luck, Japan is an amazing place.
You need to think carefully about this kusaina-san. Sure, things will start off magically. You'll get a job selling American Kita-Kata bars at the local fish market, and you'll quickly learn Japanese phrases like "Stop throwing rocks at me!" and "I'm a human being too." But then your wife will meet a British dude who's even pastier white and dorkier than you. They'll run off to Mt. Fuji while you are left alone to wonder the mean streets of Hentai district (read: all of Japan). Desperate to make some money to buy a ticket back home, you'll meet a man whom everyone calls "oji-chan". At first it seems you only need to turn a few tricks before you can go home, but next thing you know oji-chan has your passport. Your life just turned into a Japanese game show from hell, only the tapes of the show are sold under the stalls. Eventually you'll turn old, and be traded to Singapore for a Canadian stuck in a similar situation there. Once there, you'll have to start from scratch learning a whole new language. You'll eventually befriend a retired US general on 'vacation' in Singapore, who'll take pity of you, and will buy you the ticket home. For a few favors, of course...
This story happens to clueless white people every day in Japan!
Speaking from personal experience there Steel?
the economy here is not really so great. some places are hiring but many of the international offices laid off a lot of staff, just like the USA.
not speaking japanese is an issue especially if you plan to be here for awhile. if you actually study i don't see why it would take more than a year or two to become quite proficient though. it isn't that hard.
if you are good and willing to work for free you might be able to get an internship with a starchitect and turn that into a real job over time.
i hear kuma is hiring but the selection process involves a day long marathon design charette mixed in with actual interviews. which is possibly a good indication of the hours. to be blunt it is a real competitive entrance process.
if not architecture?
it used to be possible to teach english. that has become more competitive lately, but is still theoretically possible. a lot of companies went out of business last few years however and it is becoming a job that requires actual degrees in education if you want to make proper coin. still, not a bad job. you will most likely never learn japanese though. It is not the kind of job that requires it in daily life, and really i can name the number of english teachers i know who who speak japanese on 2 fingers.
other jobs i don't know. i have friends who work in factories and say the money is good. they don't speak much japanese, and don't plan to learn so i guess that is good indication of the fact it is unnecessary for the work...
as a final comment
a lot of companies here have age limits for hiring. ie, no one over 35 etc. you are required in applications to state age, gender and include a photo of yourself. that is just the way it is. so if you really want an architecture job you should start looking right away not later on.
also, do expect to start at the bottom. experience is not really counted here. every time you change job you will begin at the bottom and move up as a factor of time not ability. it is also just one of those things. culture here is almost nothing like the usa even though there is coca cola and mcdonalds all over.
Steelstuds, just want to point out that Singaporean speaks english. So if you end up in Singapore, at least you don't need to study another new language.
Found this and thought it was interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_difficult_language_to_learn
"Of the 63 languages analyzed, the five most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean". The Foreign Service Institute considers Japanese to be the most difficult of this group.[3]"
I hear that the economy is Japan is worse than here in the States... New graduates entering the workforce, only 60% are able to find employment and those who do, even if the graduate from Tokyo University (the equivalent of Harvard) are landing in part time jobs at Uniqlo (the equivalent of Gap)... :(
yes, you are too old.
didn't know that BenC. good thing no one told me ;-)
didn't know that either bRink. it doesn't feel as bad as in the usa. all my japanese friends are getting jobs (i went to u of tokyo as did bulk of my friends). foreign friends are not finding it as easy. mostly they are leaving for home. which is how it has always been. no one stays in japan, not really.
the thing is we have been in a recession of sorts since i came here in the early 90's. so it isn't like the economy has gotten bad, it simply refrained from recovering. there was a bit of a blip there because of usa economy roaring away and it looked like the lost decade might be behind us. now it looks as though we will stay lost for awhile. now japan is the 3rd largest economy in the world instead of 2nd. whatever that means.
anyway, the economy is not shit hot and life for foreigners is difficult to begin with (you will NEVER be treated as equal here, never ever going to happen) which means some special coping mechanisms are required. not to make anyone scared of finding work here but it is not going to be easy. outside of tokyo i think it will be even harder...
oh a society that wont ever treat us as equals? gee we don't know nothing about that in the usa.
ps. I'm being sarcastic
lol.
its different than in usa and canada. there is kind of direct logic - the racism is overt and purposeful.
here its just an inability to believe anyone not japanese can speak the language or act japanese. not racism exactly, just a sort of unthinking shunning. people will still be nice to you though.
What you mean to tell me that here i have am enjoying the usual racism that is the norm for my entire life here in the USA, like a sucker, when i could have been living the dream in Japan.
yup pretty much.
in north america and europe it is hate based. here we foreign folk simply don't register properly. not hated not loved...racism by neglect? not sure if its racism if there is no hate involved...i certainly won't complain, cuz being an alien can be positive in some situations.
it works other way too. sometimes westerners are treated much better than they should be.
it's kind of confusing.
ill take racism by neglect any day of the week, every time i take a walk down michigan ave. with my beautiful wife who is white we get all kinds of looks, this city has not caught up to its architecture in terms of cultural advancement it is so segregated. Other than that it is ok.
I you put your heart in getting a job there, you will get a job. I recommend you to listen to audios and read books by the motivational speaker Brian Tracy:)
__
noise cancelling headphones
hi guys thanks for all the answers, i am sorry i haven't been able to answer .
Thanks Singlefin for the movie , I'll watch it.
I heard about the racism and agism in Japan, that is what scares the most of myself. if i ever will get a job in an architecture firm or if will make enough for a living.
I heard that foreigners have a really hard time renting an apartment even if their wife is Japanese.
I didn´t feel that much racism in US towards me, i was able to interact pretty well at many aspect of the design construction process.
Don Quixote , i dont know which one is worst ,m because the racism by neglect in Japan , is because many japanese don´t accept they are being racist or that the discrimination is that bad. therefore is very difficoult to change..
In US many non white people born in US and is assimilated by most of society except thTV and that is bad , but in Japan , 99 percent of people born in Japan is japanese
i dont know which one is better or worst ?
And if regarding of my experience if i start at entry level , is that enough money to live, and save a little bit of money every month ?
exactly don quixote. i can't say this place is racism free but its of such a particular type that i don't feel properly that i can complain.
i don't know the answer to that one kusaina (btw, you meant to call yourself stinky, or is your wife messing with you?)
i know single architects who were paid $1400/month. they were licensed with m.arch. japanese. my rent is not much less than that, so no it isn't enough. or not for me and my family anyway. that said, it is fairly standard for offices here to pay less money to single people than to married folk. women will also tend to be paid less (and can get away with working shorter days). work hours are very very long in most places so also you should expect to not see your wife very much unless you are very firm with your employer (this is not as easy as you might think).
i never worked for those kinds of wages. largely through luck in retrospect. i was paid very well in fact, including time and a half for overtime and double-time for overtime after 11.00 pm (= almost EVERY night). that is so rare that i know NOBODY who was ever paid that way. i also was given substantial bonuses, which is more normal as long as the economy is good.
if you are married it is possible you will be paid more than your single colleagues for the same job. either that or the employer will ask you if you are planning to support your wife on your wages or not, and possibly choose to not hire you if you answer the former (this is what happened to a friend of mine).
having said all that things are not all that bad. if you are coming to tokyo this is just like new york city or london. cities of opportunity. 33 million people all working in one city generates a lot of energy and there is usually some kind of job to be had if you are persistent. just don't expect it to be any more easier than in the usa.
about renting an apartment, no that is not a problem especially since your wife is japanese. she will know how to deal with the key money and the other stuff that doesn't exist in the western world.
about age, don't sweat it, but really if you want to be an architect here then start looking for work doing that, not something else. if it doesn't work out then can always hunt down a teaching job (english, not architecture)
the starchitects want english speakers. if you are good. which is the tough bit, but hell that is why they are starchitects...
other offices that might like an english speaker include jun mitsui, possibly takenaka...klein dytham of course, perhaps fumihiko maki...
good luck!
Jump and everyone thanks a lot for the answers, me and my wife are thinking right now what to do , because here the things are not that easy for us , an din the long term doesn't look so promising....
how difficoult is to go from and b.s. in Architecture to a license in Japan , how long takes the goverment to answer you ??
thanks
what do you mean govt to answer you?
license you can take anytime if you have a master degree (in any field). with bachelor degree (in any field) you need to work in office for 2 years. with no degree you need to work for 7 years in office.
license and education system are not tied together so whatever you study is not important at all. there is no stigma for not going to school either. if you can pass the exam then you are architect, story over.
the exam is 2 parter and you can take it i think only in july every year. miss the exam wait a year to do it next time. that is not such an issue since offices don't really care all that much if you have license. in any case it is not going to be recognised by other countries so you might not want to go through the process unless you are going to open an office. better to get a license in your own country if you are planning to go back someday.
also you will of course need to do the tests in japanese. english is not part of japanese culture except amongst expats, so don't expect any slack in that regard.
sorry to be debbi-downer. the upside is that really you don't need license to get a job and as a foreigner the employers will not expect you to have one or get one...japanese staff will be held to higher standards than you.
Dear kusaina and wife....
Im not gone lie to you but reading your post was extremely exhausted (to say the least). I know things are tough around here but believe me, things will get even tougher when u move there. Leaving USA should only be limited to vacation (I think they should have a law on that, including banding outsourcing jobs)..So in short. Do not move, stay here and and wear ur raincoat.
best of luck!
Dear kusaina and wife....
Im not gone lie to you but reading your post was extremely exhausted (to say the least). I know things are tough around here but believe me, things will get even tougher when u move there. Leaving USA should only be limited to vacation (I think they should have a law on that, including banding outsourcing jobs)..So in short. Do not move, stay here and and wear ur raincoat.
best of luck!
TenaciousArchitect2b i would do as you say but i left USA couple of years ago because os family reasons
jump , about the license it is interesting.. similar to US ,
My wife and me still have to think , but there is no so much time...so we will decide something soon...
rather different i thought, but i haven't gone through it all the way (i am canadian and did m.arch there but most of my professional experience is in UK and japan).
anyway, good luck. if you do make the jump let me know. i am happy to offer advice about living here, although i guess your wife has it covered.
Thanks a lot jump, we still have to think because it is a big decision
thanks a lot
Just catching up on this thread. I'm hurtling toward 50, myself, with a half-dozen semesters of Japanese tucked in between architecture gigs. Still not ready for JLPT.
Similar to Stinky-san, family issues kept me in the US during my 30s. I had to pass on an offer to house-sit in the outskirts of Kyoto for a year in 2002. Ugh.
Makes me think there must be another angle, frinstance, this couple in Fukuoka exporting contemporary Japanese housewares:
http://www.analoguelife.com/En/aboutus_E.html
certainly, a lot of hustling involved to keep an online shop going, but they're their own boss.
Wow Ogataken san that is prety cool,
i want to go back to school (now no money and no time ) to learn structure and seismic , i Think also i might focus on sustainability,
but are you studying architecture ? where ? Japan, US ?
I'm just a licensed working stiff, 20 years out of architecture school. Learned seismic and sustainability on the job. (SF Bay Area) Japanese lessons are a night-school thing.
I see ogateken , i though you were going to move to japan soon , me and my wife are still thinking about it...
do you try to read , or watch japanese TV ...do you understand it ?
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