For those that are interested, and also for those who may have missed it in the news, here is my blog post about the conversation between Sir Peter Cook, Thom Mayne, and Dean Qingyun Ma this evening at USC. If anyone else was there and has anything else to add, please feel free....they were all over the map and it was hard to remember a lot of things. I would have tried to videotape it, had I not thought that I would have stood out. Fortunately Peter's colorful language sparked my memory of the main conversation points ;o)
Also, I now regret not posting it as a news item sooner....there were a lot of empty seats in that auditorium, which I found very odd. But it was a confluence of poor publicizing, timing (it was too early for many people to get to in rush hour traffic) and class conflicts (although I, uh, skipped the first half of mine to attend). Thankfully, they did not seem to let the lack of a full house stop them from talking!
i would think everybody in la has seen enough of thom mayne since he's based there. these guys tend to talk about the same thing over and over and over and over again...plus don't you guys have sunshine and an ocean there?
I didn't feel like it was a waste of time, I kind of felt like I was allowed to listen in on a conversation between old friends. I was glad to have "experienced" Peter Cook, since my friends in the London studio have been telling me stories about him for a few weeks now. He's hilarious....he takes a very irreverent approach to practice that I appreciate.
And, like liberty bell said, Thom Mayne could read from the National Enquirer and I would probably show up to watch it. Then I'd spend 10 minutes trying to think of a smart question to ask, get flustered, and leave frustrated. That's definitely one of the highlights of living here though...I get plenty of chances to try. You'd think I would plan better....
Saw him in an interview with Charlie Rose and was completely under-impressed. Actually, I was embarrassed as an architect that he was in someway representative of the best our field has to offer (he and the few other architects interviewed on tv) - not in terms of his architecture, but rather the way he explained it. Too much nonsensical archi-speak, clearly b.s.
I think your dead right oe. I'm going to go a little more undgerground with my musical reference and say we desperately need an Ian Mackaye or Steve Alibini. We need to get that DIY, piss off your parents and fans vibe going on in architecture right now.
I should have learned by now that getting a bunch of famous architects together to talk about the state of architectural education was going to be more of a self-congratulatory buddy-fest.
maybe the rambling un-focused nature of the "discussion" is more vindicative of the state of architecture education.
and wtf is up with dissing the middle of the country?
there was no "dissing of the middle of the country" thom mayne stated that to truly understand america you need to drive across the united states and observe the part between sna bernadino and just outside of philly. peter cook did not dis the country either he was doting on the fact that he was raised a city boy and the country to him was foreign territory. the real question is why are you shit talking two successful architects, my only guess is that you are jealous.
Kurt is right, Thom did say that you should drive across country to truly experience America. But I didn't experience any of the cockiness that everyone is implying. The whole event was less about trying to force an intellect down everyone's throats, and more about a conversation between these people who have had truly incredible experiences in our profession....it was very reflective in nature, and an added bonus was that is was highly amusing.
And sure, Thom used the words "I" a lot, but so did Peter and Ma. I used the word "I" in my first paragraph. Er, I just used it again. D'oh! Vicious cycle. I guess my point is, if you are asked to get in front of a bunch of people and talk about your experiences, are you NOT supposed to talk about yourself? Or your experiences? Um, yeah.
My comments were referring to TM in reviews with students, when he could seemingly not stop talking about himself and his work, even when ostensibly there for a half hour to review work a student had spent the better part of a year on.
I wasn't at the conversation, Emily, but I just read your blog about it, and your statement:
"This is the first of many inferences, by both he and Thom, about how New York and Los Angeles are really the only interesting places in the States and there is basically nothing but country in between."
seems pretty unequivocal. If they did in fact keep "inferring" that point, then they are themselves continuing THE cliche' of coastal, intellectually and culturally superior, look-down-on-the-hick-middle, snob know-it-all fop architect (and not just architects).
my speculation is that the meeting was more about re-introducing tm to usc community. weren't there some on going talks about pitching it to mayne the idea of teaching there?
i guess new deans have to build their circles in their vicinity. it is not that hard to see these moves in action.
seems like it was an impromptu meeting to strenghten some ties and forging some common goals, whether in academia or in business of architecture. influance also brings-in real projects.
these days i am interested in listening to eric moss. the other night i had an opportunity in a small meeting and pleasantly surprised how elequant he has became without comprimising his obliqueness. thom is like that too.
I wish I had heard the lecture. All I have to go on is Emily's write-up, and perhaps that is painting my view of the discussion unfairly. I don't have a problem with a chat about professional experience, but I've been starved for a real debate on the pedagogy of architecture and the ongoing (and growing) divide between academia and the profession. I'm disappointed because I've gone to too many lectures that are billed as a "real discussion of important issues," and the panel ends up wimping out and talking about how lucky they've been (or sometimes how great they are). I was also hoping since Thom Mayne has played such a role in reshaping architecture education in the last 30 or so years that he might divulge some of his experience and insights of leading Sci-Arch - but I don't know if he did or not.
toasteroven, you keep calling it a "lecture". It wasn't a "lecture". It also wasn't a "debate". You may not have gotten what you were looking for by coming to this event. The conversation was light-hearted, full of candor, and at times brazen for comedic purposes, and my write-up was deliberately cheeky to try to capture the essence of the evening. What it was not was a discussion of anything "serious"......it probably would have been more well situated in a coffee house over a cappuccino......except no coffee house at USC can fit 200 people, thus the lecture hall.
Orhan, after last night, I kind of agree with you. Ma is stirring up all sorts of curiosity down here, and I think his "encounters" with Thom Mayne add to that.
TK, we have a Master's of Landscape Architecture program, but no undergrad program. We also have a Master of Building Science program (that's me!) AND we have an undergrad in that major, but it's out of the engineering school (???). I think Dean Ma would like to address these issues, but right now perhaps he is more focused on stirring the pot. Rather successfully it seems :o)
I'm still trying to figure out Toms connection to the Sioux Indians...
cause that project truely sucked...but what can I say... I don't know the guy ....never listened to his rap.
I guess my feeling...is a bit like the Beatles Tune: "I've got a feeling." His work could have been so much more powerful if he was
really in the groove.
I was there that night, and I would say that TM is one of the least well-spoken architects there is besides the ones who don't speak English. PC will have another lecture tonight, hope you guys will show up.
maybe an off night? the one time that i've seen mayne speak, it was one of the more cogent and convincing of star architect lectures i've seen to date.
Mr. Ward, I agree. I have yet to have the pleasure of seeing TM in person, but in every recorded interview and lecture (checkout the late architecture-radio AIA SF two-parter) I have watched the man grows on me. More than anything, I think he tries to be humble in his responses and he has a sense of humour - priceless!
PC I don't know - he did a series at my school this spring, of which I only attended one. I don't really like his architecture, but as someone once told me, PC knows everyone and anyone in the game, and to me it seems that he's very good at putting this "I don't really know what I'm talking about" spin on what he says (he clearly does). So there's some kind of intentional self-belittlement going on I guess, which I feel in the long run becomes an excuse to stay inoffensive yet able to attack (seems all the Archigrammers have this ability).
As much as I like TM as a (mediated) person, on a superficial level his architecture, like much of the Prix/Mayne/EOM (+Lynn???) generation, doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to.
Really do try and find the AIA SF lecture if you can - I think it's a tour-de-force in architectural education. A semester or two's worth of thinking in there.
"As much as I like TM as a (mediated) person, on a superficial level his architecture, like much of the Prix/Mayne/EOM (+Lynn???) generation, doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to.
"
generationally speaking (only) ......i feel sorry for not having appreciated enric miralles whilst he was alive. now i'm very fond of his work..but i'm not sure whether its just a morbid death 'james dean/jeff buckley/kurt cobain' thing...now how original is THAT? but seriously, beautiful work..that interior renovation house design thingie...something else..what a free flowing mind
I just watched a 3rd video of a Thom Mayne speech and I must say I dont get it.....Too much hype....too much "Architectural BS made up words" And WAY TOO MUCH self refelction taking place on stage.
I completely agree with citizen too much
I
Me
Mine
My
....etc
Apr 4, 08 1:03 am ·
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Cook, Mayne and Ma discuss "weird shit"
For those that are interested, and also for those who may have missed it in the news, here is my blog post about the conversation between Sir Peter Cook, Thom Mayne, and Dean Qingyun Ma this evening at USC. If anyone else was there and has anything else to add, please feel free....they were all over the map and it was hard to remember a lot of things. I would have tried to videotape it, had I not thought that I would have stood out. Fortunately Peter's colorful language sparked my memory of the main conversation points ;o)
Also, I now regret not posting it as a news item sooner....there were a lot of empty seats in that auditorium, which I found very odd. But it was a confluence of poor publicizing, timing (it was too early for many people to get to in rush hour traffic) and class conflicts (although I, uh, skipped the first half of mine to attend). Thankfully, they did not seem to let the lack of a full house stop them from talking!
i would think everybody in la has seen enough of thom mayne since he's based there. these guys tend to talk about the same thing over and over and over and over again...plus don't you guys have sunshine and an ocean there?
Thom Mayne is hot, and well-spoken - he could read from the phone book and I'd listen.*
*OK, a slight exagerration. He could read from the architect's directory, how's that?
Wonderk..
Sounds like the conversation was just a couple of old friends shooting the shit.
Nothing entirely revolutionary or specific discussed...
Did you feel it was worth your time??
Hi nam....how did you know I was there too? ;o)
I didn't feel like it was a waste of time, I kind of felt like I was allowed to listen in on a conversation between old friends. I was glad to have "experienced" Peter Cook, since my friends in the London studio have been telling me stories about him for a few weeks now. He's hilarious....he takes a very irreverent approach to practice that I appreciate.
And, like liberty bell said, Thom Mayne could read from the National Enquirer and I would probably show up to watch it. Then I'd spend 10 minutes trying to think of a smart question to ask, get flustered, and leave frustrated. That's definitely one of the highlights of living here though...I get plenty of chances to try. You'd think I would plan better....
"Thom Mayne...well-spoken"
Saw him in an interview with Charlie Rose and was completely under-impressed. Actually, I was embarrassed as an architect that he was in someway representative of the best our field has to offer (he and the few other architects interviewed on tv) - not in terms of his architecture, but rather the way he explained it. Too much nonsensical archi-speak, clearly b.s.
Thom Mayne's favorite words, in this person's experience at UCLA:
1. "I"
2. "Me"
3. "My"
4. "Mine"
Id honeslty like to see architects talk about real flesh-and-blood human beings again. Architecture needs a Kurt Cobain about now.
I think your dead right oe. I'm going to go a little more undgerground with my musical reference and say we desperately need an Ian Mackaye or Steve Alibini. We need to get that DIY, piss off your parents and fans vibe going on in architecture right now.
I guess I more meant someone to come and sweep away all the hair-bands, but yea it all starts with the little tear-it-up underground shit.
vado
I skipped the lecture to go home and drink beer and eat cheese
i heard the lecture sucked
...
it wasnt a lecture and it didnt suck
I should have learned by now that getting a bunch of famous architects together to talk about the state of architectural education was going to be more of a self-congratulatory buddy-fest.
maybe the rambling un-focused nature of the "discussion" is more vindicative of the state of architecture education.
and wtf is up with dissing the middle of the country?
TO,
Hadn't you heard?
Suburbs, bad. Middle America, bad. Builders, bad. Developers, bad. Oh, and clients, stupid.
Now you know, and don't have to bother with thinking for yourself.
there was no "dissing of the middle of the country" thom mayne stated that to truly understand america you need to drive across the united states and observe the part between sna bernadino and just outside of philly. peter cook did not dis the country either he was doting on the fact that he was raised a city boy and the country to him was foreign territory. the real question is why are you shit talking two successful architects, my only guess is that you are jealous.
Oh you missed the sign. This is archinect.
Kurt is right, Thom did say that you should drive across country to truly experience America. But I didn't experience any of the cockiness that everyone is implying. The whole event was less about trying to force an intellect down everyone's throats, and more about a conversation between these people who have had truly incredible experiences in our profession....it was very reflective in nature, and an added bonus was that is was highly amusing.
And sure, Thom used the words "I" a lot, but so did Peter and Ma. I used the word "I" in my first paragraph. Er, I just used it again. D'oh! Vicious cycle. I guess my point is, if you are asked to get in front of a bunch of people and talk about your experiences, are you NOT supposed to talk about yourself? Or your experiences? Um, yeah.
True enough. We all do it, myself included.
My comments were referring to TM in reviews with students, when he could seemingly not stop talking about himself and his work, even when ostensibly there for a half hour to review work a student had spent the better part of a year on.
I wasn't at the conversation, Emily, but I just read your blog about it, and your statement:
"This is the first of many inferences, by both he and Thom, about how New York and Los Angeles are really the only interesting places in the States and there is basically nothing but country in between."
seems pretty unequivocal. If they did in fact keep "inferring" that point, then they are themselves continuing THE cliche' of coastal, intellectually and culturally superior, look-down-on-the-hick-middle, snob know-it-all fop architect (and not just architects).
my speculation is that the meeting was more about re-introducing tm to usc community. weren't there some on going talks about pitching it to mayne the idea of teaching there?
i guess new deans have to build their circles in their vicinity. it is not that hard to see these moves in action.
seems like it was an impromptu meeting to strenghten some ties and forging some common goals, whether in academia or in business of architecture. influance also brings-in real projects.
these days i am interested in listening to eric moss. the other night i had an opportunity in a small meeting and pleasantly surprised how elequant he has became without comprimising his obliqueness. thom is like that too.
I wish I had heard the lecture. All I have to go on is Emily's write-up, and perhaps that is painting my view of the discussion unfairly. I don't have a problem with a chat about professional experience, but I've been starved for a real debate on the pedagogy of architecture and the ongoing (and growing) divide between academia and the profession. I'm disappointed because I've gone to too many lectures that are billed as a "real discussion of important issues," and the panel ends up wimping out and talking about how lucky they've been (or sometimes how great they are). I was also hoping since Thom Mayne has played such a role in reshaping architecture education in the last 30 or so years that he might divulge some of his experience and insights of leading Sci-Arch - but I don't know if he did or not.
toasteroven, you keep calling it a "lecture". It wasn't a "lecture". It also wasn't a "debate". You may not have gotten what you were looking for by coming to this event. The conversation was light-hearted, full of candor, and at times brazen for comedic purposes, and my write-up was deliberately cheeky to try to capture the essence of the evening. What it was not was a discussion of anything "serious"......it probably would have been more well situated in a coffee house over a cappuccino......except no coffee house at USC can fit 200 people, thus the lecture hall.
Orhan, after last night, I kind of agree with you. Ma is stirring up all sorts of curiosity down here, and I think his "encounters" with Thom Mayne add to that.
eK-
Any news of what's happening with USC's landscape program? Any indication that Ma plans for 'scaping?
dUbz on Curbed!
Oh jeez. I'm on Curbed. LOL.
TK, we have a Master's of Landscape Architecture program, but no undergrad program. We also have a Master of Building Science program (that's me!) AND we have an undergrad in that major, but it's out of the engineering school (???). I think Dean Ma would like to address these issues, but right now perhaps he is more focused on stirring the pot. Rather successfully it seems :o)
I'm still trying to figure out Toms connection to the Sioux Indians...
cause that project truely sucked...but what can I say... I don't know the guy ....never listened to his rap.
I guess my feeling...is a bit like the Beatles Tune: "I've got a feeling." His work could have been so much more powerful if he was
really in the groove.
Curbed, nice.
Small world I guess.
I find the exchange in the comments on Curbed's page humorous. Personally Dean Ma's "rabble rousing" seems very interesting to me.
Sounds like a bit of a wank. Mayne and Ma obviously like patting each others back.
Ah... school days. So much time on my hands, so much bullshit.
I was there that night, and I would say that TM is one of the least well-spoken architects there is besides the ones who don't speak English. PC will have another lecture tonight, hope you guys will show up.
ouch. poor thom. lol.
yay emkem!
maybe an off night? the one time that i've seen mayne speak, it was one of the more cogent and convincing of star architect lectures i've seen to date.
Mr. Ward, I agree. I have yet to have the pleasure of seeing TM in person, but in every recorded interview and lecture (checkout the late architecture-radio AIA SF two-parter) I have watched the man grows on me. More than anything, I think he tries to be humble in his responses and he has a sense of humour - priceless!
PC I don't know - he did a series at my school this spring, of which I only attended one. I don't really like his architecture, but as someone once told me, PC knows everyone and anyone in the game, and to me it seems that he's very good at putting this "I don't really know what I'm talking about" spin on what he says (he clearly does). So there's some kind of intentional self-belittlement going on I guess, which I feel in the long run becomes an excuse to stay inoffensive yet able to attack (seems all the Archigrammers have this ability).
As much as I like TM as a (mediated) person, on a superficial level his architecture, like much of the Prix/Mayne/EOM (+Lynn???) generation, doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to.
Really do try and find the AIA SF lecture if you can - I think it's a tour-de-force in architectural education. A semester or two's worth of thinking in there.
For those of you that are interested in Cook, there's an audio recordng here of a recent AA lecture.
other bits avail on this site too..Winy Maas etc.
"As much as I like TM as a (mediated) person, on a superficial level his architecture, like much of the Prix/Mayne/EOM (+Lynn???) generation, doesn't appeal to me as much as it used to.
"
isn't that shockingly original?
generationally speaking (only) ......i feel sorry for not having appreciated enric miralles whilst he was alive. now i'm very fond of his work..but i'm not sure whether its just a morbid death 'james dean/jeff buckley/kurt cobain' thing...now how original is THAT? but seriously, beautiful work..that interior renovation house design thingie...something else..what a free flowing mind
I just watched a 3rd video of a Thom Mayne speech and I must say I dont get it.....Too much hype....too much "Architectural BS made up words" And WAY TOO MUCH self refelction taking place on stage.
I completely agree with citizen too much
I
Me
Mine
My
....etc
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