aquapura: excellent analysis...I also am in a very comparable situation to yours in terms of experience, licensure, etc.
When I applied to MArch school in 2003 there were 114 accredited schools, last time I checked there are upwards of 121 and there are more scheduled to be accredited...great for owners in the marketplace...very bad for the profession's best, long term interests...I'm convinced the artists need to be thrown overboard...interestingly if the number of schools were to be pared down to about 30 that sounds like it would be about right.
A couple of years ago when doing some research I think the number of arch school grads BArch and MArch is something like 18,000 per year...according to my numbers only 1 in 8 ever get Registered.
In the meantime all the 7/8ths of lackaidaisical hippie flotsam is clogging up the profession at the bottom...very difficult to wade through.
my M.Arch class had i think about 20 in it
we are 3.5 years out, so right around when we are eligible to take our exams
I am in the middle of my exams, and one other guy passed all his already
No one else has even scheduled one to my knowledge, and, knowing these people, I am guessing most never will
I didn't say that marmkid. I hope you are able to pass the exams because those that fail are often the types that make bad assumptions/ draw faulty conclusions and generally jump to untenable-illogical positions (90% of contemporary Arch school grads)
I did NOT say, because you dont have your license means you are useless.
I said, "In the meantime all the 7/8ths of lackaidaisical hippie flotsam is clogging up the profession at the bottom...very difficult to wade through."
Those that either are intellectually and/or otherwise incapable of disciplining themselves to pass the licensing exam should not be used in the profession ---period.
The flotsam clogging up the profession is very useful...in OTHER capacities in the marketplace other than within the profession hiding as charlatans.
hehe.. spent until midnight last night at work playing with LEED-ND credit scoring. It's a sad game. 44 points for "design" and only 29 points for sustainable infrastructure... as if the New Urbanists really figured out how to quantify design. With that logic I can get a project certified just be learning how to think like Andres Duany. It should be the other way around.
Steven Ward: Is he FAIA (and do you have a source)? And how do you figure he has to maintain his registration? Seriously I'm curious I don't mean to imply any rudeness I am truly wondering if you can connect the dots for me and cite sources of info...thanks.
Licensee Name: GEHRY FRANK O
License Type: ARCHITECT
License Number: C3757
License Status: CURRENT Definition
Expiration Date: February 28, 2011
Issue Date: August 25, 1962
City: LOS ANGELES
County: LOS ANGELES
speaking of gehry (who i love, but have never met so who knows, maybe he wouldn't love me back)...
he wrote an intro to a slightly well known book called "the end of architecture" where basically zaha hadid, steven hall, thom mayne, eric owne moss, daniel liebeskind and similar luminaries of the age got together to bitch about the lack of work and how archtiectuer as a profession had come to an end. none of them were building but were famous non-building designers of the built world.
frank laid out a nice bit of text, saying essentially you are young and sound mildly ridiculous and i hope that someday you will get work because then you will be able to stop wasting time complaining about things and actually do something productive.
he was right on. they got older, got t building and seldom do you hear them complaining about the state of architecture anymore.
good call frank.
well, i won't draw conclusions for you because they are pretty clear
but sheesh, you know, i have spent all of my working life (beginning in the early 1980's) dealing with one recession or depression after another and can't quite come to grips with the idea that prosperity is supposed to be normal way of things...
i think the main thing to take from my own experience is that the outside world does not define us or our jobs and those once and future starchitects above were railing against evidence that maybe the world was their master. frank knew better.
of course to take control it is necessary to be willing to move state, province or country, but to me that was always the funnest part of the deal. so move when things are crap, or change jobs. why not?
and honestly, if you have your license and they still dont let you run jobs, i would get the hell out of there as fast as i could
That seems a bit absurd
and STUPID! what are they paying you for anyway? these people don't like profitability at all, apparently.
Let me know in twenty years if I was right but here is where the profession is going:
1 architect making 120K a year with social network and high intelligence
4 engineers making 85K a year consulting (in house or out) doing the brainiac work that is annoying to the architect -he's too busy schmoozing and marketing and selling services to care
10 cad monkeys jumping on the bed making 30K year shoveling all the proverbial computer/ IT/ artist/ "designer" sh%$. (Of course the bulk of these will be MArchs who the AIA encourages to let them pass themselves off as architects to their friends and neighbors on the weekend but are stuck manipulating software M-S, the rest of these will be graduates from ITT Technical Instititute and retrained blue collar union workers/ carpenters who can no longer work physically demanding jobs due to on the job injuries).
The main problem that I have with this thread is the preponderance of posters who see themselves as "victims". Come on people - grow a pair. I don't know a single lawyer, doctor, accountant or developer who sees himself as a victim. They see themselves as winners and they go about making that happen, even in the face of adversity.
Architects are not critical to health and well-being.
Programs and tectonics don't save lives.
When you try to lay blame on anything for architects, they'll cite that only 3% of the properties in the US are actually done by them. But when it comes around to this argument, it is that architects are not involved enough.
So, that's kind of an interesting cycle to be proud of and hurt by a claim of participation.
All three of those professions have exceptionally high amounts of liability. How often do architects really go to jail over their liabilities?
If it is a dire emergency dealing with my own personal well-being, I am probably never calling an architect in any situation unless my slightly off white ceramic counter top is clashing with the walls and the stools to a point that has made me suicidal.
And that 10k dollar rug is NOT pulling the room together-- "OMIFGOD... JESUS CHRIST... I WILL JUST KILL MYSELF IF YOU DO NOT COME OVER HERE RIGHT NOW AND REPAINT MY WALLS."
While architecture is important and worthwhile, I have really seen very many architects go out of their way to improve the general public's well-being.
For every green building, there is two EIFS-clad strip malls going up. For every rehab'ed row home, there is 10 condos being detailed out whose cost is several dozen times that area's average income. For every 6 story middle income apartment building, there is an entire suburban 3-story apartment complex. For every dorm room, there's a dozen single occupancy rooms in a college housing rip off scheme. For every urban home, there's a dozen drive-to mansions outside of city limits.
Kind of see the picture here? In theory, architects like to think they are doing good. In practice, their actions neutralize those theories.
The AIA is to blame. I am licensed but could never put AIA after my name, in good conscience.
Ever noticed that engineers call themselves John Doe, P.E. and not John Doe, ASCE? Yet Architects are so complacent with their individual professional responsibiility that they defer to the AIA their profession status, i.e. John Doe, AIA instead of John Doe, RA? Losers.
The AIA has gutted the "jurisdictional territory" of the architect.
This is what I think montagneux is referring to when he says
"When you try to lay blame on anything for architects, they'll cite that only 3% of the properties in the US are actually done by them. But when it comes around to this argument, it is that architects are not involved enough."
Doctors, Lawyers, and even accountants have protected their juristdictional territory while the AIA has in fact destoryed that of the average architect.
THere is a great article in the Aut 2009 Journal of Architectural Plannig and Research titled, "The Architecture Profession: Can It Be Strengthened?" which explains what has been at work here and why ARCHITECTS ARE the biggest LOSERS in the contemporary marketplace.
Feel free to email me at RSOarchitect@gmail.com if you want me to help you locate a copy of the article.
piggy -- your rants against the AIA are both silly and ill-informed. AIA is nothing more than a member-led organization, made up entirely of people like you and me. Your attempts to make the AIA a boogey man in all of this is, at best, a bizarre form of self-loathing, since we are the AIA, whether we're dues paying members or not. The AIA pursues the agenda its members require of it ... if you don't like that agenda, pay your dues and participate in a process of change.
At a much broader level, the AIA's prime function is to deliver programs and services aimed at assisting its members in the practice of architecture - each professional is free to drink from that well, or not.
To blame the AIA for our individual or collective failures (or to give the AIA credit for our individual or collective success) is misdirected and non-productive. I stand by comments I've made earlier -- we each are responsible for making our own way in this profession. It's infantile to rail against an institution of volunteers when you're not happy with your own circumstances.
And, for the record, I know many registered architects who are quite happy using R.A. after their names.
I don't know a single lawyer, doctor, accountant or developer who sees himself as a victim.
Obviously you haven't been at a cocktail party with doctors & lawyers lately. Doctors whine and bitch that they spend all their time doing paperwork and/or how the gov't does't pay enough for Medicare claims, etc. Attorneys love to bitch about bad corporate clients, monotony of work, etc. Point is, everyone complains about their job in some form or another. The difference is, as many Architects see it, those other professions on average earn 2-4 time multiples of what an Architect does.
Financial security goes a long way to being able to "leave work at work." Office stress like long hours and deadlines is way easier to deal with than the stress of worrying how to pay the mortgage or contemplating dropping insurance, etc. In all honesty, it was hard to "make it" as an Architect in good times. Right now I think people are downright scared...and it's showing up as anger, i.e. all the bashing of senior management, AIA, et. al.
Young Architects (25-40yrs) are in a particular bad place right now. Most have student loans, those that bought a house probably did so at peak prices and these are the prime years for having a family. Scraping by on the salary of a staff Architect is tough, but then this economy hits and 30%+ are suddenly out of work, the rest under extreme salary & benefit cuts. It's easy to get pissed off. I totally understand and do see this group as vicitims of things totally out of their own control.
They see themselves as winners and they go about making that happen, even in the face of adversity.
I've brought in clients that want to build but can't get financing. What do you say to that? There are things completely out of our control that are crushing this industry. Suggestions on how to overcome this adversity would be nice?
i still havent seen a reason why the AIA is such an enemy and is any more responsible for what is going on than individual architects are
and blaming them/ ranting at them/ etc certainly seems just pointless as this is not an AIA website
perhaps if the point of any of this is to actually fix something that is so egregiously bad and terrible, then the time would be better served speaking with local AIA chapter members or others who are involved in making the decisions
it's much easier to help change or fix something from the inside rather than a random messageboard
aqua ... I take your point about the financial markets. Like so many others, our practice has been hit very hard because our clients cannot obtain financing for good projects. This problem I lay directly at the feet of Bush and friends, who spent 8-years ignoring fundamental financial market regulation and wrecking our economy. But, those are macro-economic problems that affect us all, regardless of how one earns a living.
As for suggestions, diversification is the key and something that is within the reach of every firm. The design firms hardest hit have been those that relied most heavily on clients who need to borrow huge quantities of other people's money to build. Firms with a base of work tied to the public sector or to health care have suffered much less than firms that depend on developer or commercial work.
Starting now, there simply is no quick fix for firms heavily reliant on developer and/or commercial clients -- the trick for those firms is to find ways to survive until the economy bounces back. However, if one takes a longer view -- a view beyond this current recession -- starting now to broaden and diversify a firm's client base and revenue sources will, over time, provide greater economic stability for the firm when the next downturn hits -- and it will hit.
As for the other professions, yeah everybody bitches in a climate like this, but I still say all those lawyers, doctors, accountants and developers drive better cars and live in bigger houses than do we. Their mentality is not to suffer and accept.
I definitely agree with you on this one stone, "...but I still say all those lawyers, doctors, accountants and developers drive better cars and live in bigger houses than do we. Their mentality is not to suffer and accept."
Artists have always been at the bottom of the food chain of all societies...suffer and accept might even be their common slogan. And before anyone starts attacking Piggy about this (please disagree on the merits of an argument if you wish) and turns this into an ad hominem remember that I didn't make up the rules of the marketplace.
THe further the profession gets from emphasizing the role of "art" and "design" in its offerings the more profitable it will become. Unfortunately, this is exactly why the profession finds itself in a black hole right now and based on current trajectories won't be extracting itself anytime soon if ever.
I worked in the health care sector . And yes although they didn't suffer as much as Corporate Interiors for example, they did suffer and it started before the recession.
Overall an Architects market is getting smaller and smaller. This is why I believe traditional firms are going to be obsolete in the future. We lost three healthcare jobs to contractors,, not architects. These were renovation jobs ,but clients used to think that even renovations were something that they need to hire an architect for. Not anymore. Most of the time in hospitals a Contractor has more of a relationship with the client than any architect , so what happens is that the contractor figures out that I can hire one architect on their staff to stamp drawings and offer those services to the client directly. They are taking on more liability but they are accepting this in order to get the jobs. It had seriously gotten to the point where we were only asked for proposals when it was Required by the STATE or a new building or additions and we all know that renovations help to keep a firm alive in most cases.
It also got to a point where developers stopped hiring architects for medical office buildings in our area. They just hired an Archtiect to be on their staff as well and a bunch of cad guys and replicated the one project we did do for them in the past. This is the thing I was completely floored by. Coming out of school I had no idea that we lacked ownership of our projects. I may have been Naive but I thought that was illegal but apparently it isn't.
(Honestly I would decline to answer such a question myself...probably end up with archinect & associates surrounding my house at midnight with pitchforks and torches ablaze).
What hit me the most is Ban's answer to "What's next for architecture?"
"Historically, architects worked for privileged people, religious groups, noblemen. Now architects are working for big corporations, governments, rich people trying to display their power and money by monumental architecture. It is the same."
Well well, I hear you, it takes a real man to go out on his own at night when it is cold and raining, I think you should make sacrifices and take risks even if it means moonlightning, start a firm, be the total opposite of those turds running your company, start you own thing, you're licensed!
Most relevant thread on archinect, ever! I cannot agree with syp more about how one's passion for the job and being severely underpaid for the incredible time and effort invested in an architectural education can have any logical connection, if at all. Does that mean that the more passion you have, the more you should be able to withstand abuse from architecture firms that eat their young (and seasoned professionals too?)? I do not know where some people get this mentality that Architecture does not "owe" you anything, therefore you shouldn't be expected to be paid more than a certain amount or progress past the level of CAD monkey if you've been working for several years. How naive/brainwashed/submissive should you be to invest a dis-proportionally large amount of money and hard work into an architecture education, only to be told that it is wrong to desire self-actualization in the form of fair compensation and advancement in the profession?
Doesn't help that the "hippie-flotsam" recent grads in arch schools are being fed contemporary theory drivel from educators who haven't kept in touch with current conditions in the professional world since they graduated.
I'm 26 and decidedly NOT going for a Master's in Architecture despite receiving several acceptances from good schools. I'm shrewd and intuitive to know what's good for me and what's not. I think the dealbreaker though, was graduating from Yale as an undergrad architecture major and being offered a measly $7.50 to work as an intern for a year in NYC by the current YSOA Chair of the Admissions Committee (you can look him up, I'm not going to post his name). How is one expected to even survive in NYC on that sort of salary? He also graciously reminded beforehand that I had to "have financial backup in the form of parental support" to "cover expenses". Needless to say, I said "no".
I've been in the industry for 10 years. I am not licensed and it is not a passion. My designs are okay, prettier than most but I know I'm not going to be the next Gehry or Calatrava or Hadid.
Instead, I try to find joy in something else. I quite enjoy dealing with building codes and authorities. In fact, it's my forte. I'd like to pretend I'm a lawyer, finding loopholes or ways around the code that can help solve my client's problems. This got me by for years but I've just resigned and now am trying to switch careers.
IMHO, what the OP wrote has some truth in it and it is a global pandemic. Let's take passion out of the equation for a second and see the job of an average architect for what it is. The amount of work we put in is simply too great for the remuneration we receive. I think there is something wrong with the system. We design places so it concerns the welfare and safety of people. We all know how complicated building codes can get. It's a huge responsibility to take on yet our service is undervalued, especially in big firms. They are the ones who can land big projects with good remuneration yet the profit are not being passed down to the average employees.
Some members here keep professing their passion for architecture despite the working condition. While I applaud your dedication, I think it's not right to admonish anyone taking issue with the remuneration as simply 'whining'. I think there is a legitimate issue about the amount of effort given vs. the remuneration received.
However, I think there's a difference between working in a corporate setting and setting up your own firm, which most architects could do if they want to.
My first job was with this small firm, doing mostly small residential projects. The bosses didn't believe in overtime and I always left office on time. I recall having to work on Saturdays and holidays but those were rare and when we did, it was out of necessity. But small firms have limited exposure. It was my first job and I wanted to "see the world" and so I left. I ended up joining a bigger firm. Right away didn't like the corporate culture but persevered, and learned the intricacies of office politics. Got exposed to big projects like I wanted to and realized it was not as glam from the inside. Then this firm was acquired by a much bigger firm. More bureaucracy and paperwork followed, and I really felt treated like a commodity instead of a human being. I drew the line so I quit. Now I'm looking to pivot my career elsewhere because I don't see career in architecture as a sustainable one for me.
My aunt is also an architect.She tried working in a firm but hated the long hours. She quit after 2 days and started her own firm. It's a small firm, not at all famous or eccentric but she gets steady jobs. It helps that she is a sociable person and her husband is a contractor. Her family is the richest among the siblings, not sure if it's her income or the husband's but my guess is, her husband makes more money but she designed their house so they look like they live a good life. It's a good combo, really. Her designs are not flamboyant, in fact, they're quite modest but always put together. I once interned with her and she never started with big ideas. She just did what the client wants, ensured lighting and ventilation are taken care of, and then added a little design flair here and there. Simple. The fact that she is her own boss works well for her. She gets to be there for her kids, picking them up or dropping them off at school, being home to have lunch with them. She is not famous but she lives the best scenario being an average architect can give you.
Mar 1, 18 3:41 am ·
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randomised
So, marry a contractor and start out on your own :)
Mar 1, 18 10:23 am ·
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Chartreuse_Urchin
Yes, it seems to be the best plan
Mar 2, 18 12:14 am ·
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OneLostArchitect
Great post... that’s where I want to be... I’m trying to cross that bridge to doing my own thing.
Mar 2, 18 12:40 am ·
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Chartreuse_Urchin
Do it! I think the key to my aunt's success (besides hard work, of course) is a good dose of humility. She doesn't kid herself that she is some big-time architect and she doesn't try to land big-time projects, so I guess she attracts clients with similar mindset (the kind with realistic expectations). I've had reasonable clients and the stress level was never that high. Nothing worse than average clients who can only afford to hire average firms but demand something spectacular as if it was designed by Calatrava (but also insists on low budget, zero maintenance, and can't deal with irregular spaces).
You described 99% of our current
experience..... I hope eveyone at AIA your post, so they can understand the frustration of our field.
Wish you the best!
didn’t realize how old this post is, but still revalant... I am where the OP is today. Same age, freshly licensed, and in a cage being poked and ready to bite. Wish we can get an update from OP to see where he is today. That would be interesting
Is Architecture degrading or is it just Me?
aquapura: excellent analysis...I also am in a very comparable situation to yours in terms of experience, licensure, etc.
When I applied to MArch school in 2003 there were 114 accredited schools, last time I checked there are upwards of 121 and there are more scheduled to be accredited...great for owners in the marketplace...very bad for the profession's best, long term interests...I'm convinced the artists need to be thrown overboard...interestingly if the number of schools were to be pared down to about 30 that sounds like it would be about right.
A couple of years ago when doing some research I think the number of arch school grads BArch and MArch is something like 18,000 per year...according to my numbers only 1 in 8 ever get Registered.
In the meantime all the 7/8ths of lackaidaisical hippie flotsam is clogging up the profession at the bottom...very difficult to wade through.
1 in 8 might even be a bit generous
my M.Arch class had i think about 20 in it
we are 3.5 years out, so right around when we are eligible to take our exams
I am in the middle of my exams, and one other guy passed all his already
No one else has even scheduled one to my knowledge, and, knowing these people, I am guessing most never will
marmkid: exactly. useless flotsam flooding the marketplace.
useless flotsam is a bit of an exaggeration
i think it is a combination of several things, the license procedure itself, and others that have been mentioned already here
but saying that because you dont have your license means you are useless is a bit ridiculous
I didn't say that marmkid. I hope you are able to pass the exams because those that fail are often the types that make bad assumptions/ draw faulty conclusions and generally jump to untenable-illogical positions (90% of contemporary Arch school grads)
I did NOT say, because you dont have your license means you are useless.
I said, "In the meantime all the 7/8ths of lackaidaisical hippie flotsam is clogging up the profession at the bottom...very difficult to wade through."
Those that either are intellectually and/or otherwise incapable of disciplining themselves to pass the licensing exam should not be used in the profession ---period.
The flotsam clogging up the profession is very useful...in OTHER capacities in the marketplace other than within the profession hiding as charlatans.
By the way does anyone know if Gehry is even licensed...or is he an officially (unlicensed) Charlatan?
ok i stand corrected
just because you do not have your license doesnt make you "lackaidaisical hippie flotsam"
thats too general of a statement to make and it sounds very close to saying statements like "you are a sustainable designer because you are a LEED AP"
I completely agree with the absurdity of equating LEED AP with designing sustainably.
for gehry to remain 'FAIA', i believe he has to maintain his registration as well.
hehe.. spent until midnight last night at work playing with LEED-ND credit scoring. It's a sad game. 44 points for "design" and only 29 points for sustainable infrastructure... as if the New Urbanists really figured out how to quantify design. With that logic I can get a project certified just be learning how to think like Andres Duany. It should be the other way around.
Steven Ward: Is he FAIA (and do you have a source)? And how do you figure he has to maintain his registration? Seriously I'm curious I don't mean to imply any rudeness I am truly wondering if you can connect the dots for me and cite sources of info...thanks.
this thread makes me feel even worse. I made such a bad decision.
Licensee Name: GEHRY FRANK O
License Type: ARCHITECT
License Number: C3757
License Status: CURRENT Definition
Expiration Date: February 28, 2011
Issue Date: August 25, 1962
City: LOS ANGELES
County: LOS ANGELES
http://www.aia.org/practicing/awards/AIAB025046
Gold Medal Award Recipients
1999 Frank Gehry, FAIA
speaking of gehry (who i love, but have never met so who knows, maybe he wouldn't love me back)...
he wrote an intro to a slightly well known book called "the end of architecture" where basically zaha hadid, steven hall, thom mayne, eric owne moss, daniel liebeskind and similar luminaries of the age got together to bitch about the lack of work and how archtiectuer as a profession had come to an end. none of them were building but were famous non-building designers of the built world.
frank laid out a nice bit of text, saying essentially you are young and sound mildly ridiculous and i hope that someday you will get work because then you will be able to stop wasting time complaining about things and actually do something productive.
he was right on. they got older, got t building and seldom do you hear them complaining about the state of architecture anymore.
good call frank.
well, i won't draw conclusions for you because they are pretty clear
but sheesh, you know, i have spent all of my working life (beginning in the early 1980's) dealing with one recession or depression after another and can't quite come to grips with the idea that prosperity is supposed to be normal way of things...
i think the main thing to take from my own experience is that the outside world does not define us or our jobs and those once and future starchitects above were railing against evidence that maybe the world was their master. frank knew better.
of course to take control it is necessary to be willing to move state, province or country, but to me that was always the funnest part of the deal. so move when things are crap, or change jobs. why not?
and honestly, if you have your license and they still dont let you run jobs, i would get the hell out of there as fast as i could
That seems a bit absurd
and STUPID! what are they paying you for anyway? these people don't like profitability at all, apparently.
Let me know in twenty years if I was right but here is where the profession is going:
1 architect making 120K a year with social network and high intelligence
4 engineers making 85K a year consulting (in house or out) doing the brainiac work that is annoying to the architect -he's too busy schmoozing and marketing and selling services to care
10 cad monkeys jumping on the bed making 30K year shoveling all the proverbial computer/ IT/ artist/ "designer" sh%$. (Of course the bulk of these will be MArchs who the AIA encourages to let them pass themselves off as architects to their friends and neighbors on the weekend but are stuck manipulating software M-S, the rest of these will be graduates from ITT Technical Instititute and retrained blue collar union workers/ carpenters who can no longer work physically demanding jobs due to on the job injuries).
Piggy.. I think you've got the roles and salary figures switched between the architect and the engineer...
Good point Urbanist...sharp eye.
The main problem that I have with this thread is the preponderance of posters who see themselves as "victims". Come on people - grow a pair. I don't know a single lawyer, doctor, accountant or developer who sees himself as a victim. They see themselves as winners and they go about making that happen, even in the face of adversity.
lawyers make 110k a year
doctors make 150k a year
accountants make architects work for 35k a year and then they arrange to keep the rest.
developers (smiling bankers) own all the money that lawyers, doctors, accountants, and everyone else makes.
Architects ARE not winners in this game. #1 hit by the Great Depression II. surprise, surprise.
Architects are in the LOSER category quite solidly.
Architects are not critical to health and well-being.
Programs and tectonics don't save lives.
When you try to lay blame on anything for architects, they'll cite that only 3% of the properties in the US are actually done by them. But when it comes around to this argument, it is that architects are not involved enough.
So, that's kind of an interesting cycle to be proud of and hurt by a claim of participation.
All three of those professions have exceptionally high amounts of liability. How often do architects really go to jail over their liabilities?
If it is a dire emergency dealing with my own personal well-being, I am probably never calling an architect in any situation unless my slightly off white ceramic counter top is clashing with the walls and the stools to a point that has made me suicidal.
And that 10k dollar rug is NOT pulling the room together-- "OMIFGOD... JESUS CHRIST... I WILL JUST KILL MYSELF IF YOU DO NOT COME OVER HERE RIGHT NOW AND REPAINT MY WALLS."
While architecture is important and worthwhile, I have really seen very many architects go out of their way to improve the general public's well-being.
For every green building, there is two EIFS-clad strip malls going up. For every rehab'ed row home, there is 10 condos being detailed out whose cost is several dozen times that area's average income. For every 6 story middle income apartment building, there is an entire suburban 3-story apartment complex. For every dorm room, there's a dozen single occupancy rooms in a college housing rip off scheme. For every urban home, there's a dozen drive-to mansions outside of city limits.
Kind of see the picture here? In theory, architects like to think they are doing good. In practice, their actions neutralize those theories.
I have never really seen*
piggy - what's your point?
Are you citing the cause or the effect? Looks to me like you're still playing the 'squealing victim' role.
The AIA is to blame. I am licensed but could never put AIA after my name, in good conscience.
Ever noticed that engineers call themselves John Doe, P.E. and not John Doe, ASCE? Yet Architects are so complacent with their individual professional responsibiility that they defer to the AIA their profession status, i.e. John Doe, AIA instead of John Doe, RA? Losers.
The AIA has gutted the "jurisdictional territory" of the architect.
This is what I think montagneux is referring to when he says
"When you try to lay blame on anything for architects, they'll cite that only 3% of the properties in the US are actually done by them. But when it comes around to this argument, it is that architects are not involved enough."
Doctors, Lawyers, and even accountants have protected their juristdictional territory while the AIA has in fact destoryed that of the average architect.
THere is a great article in the Aut 2009 Journal of Architectural Plannig and Research titled, "The Architecture Profession: Can It Be Strengthened?" which explains what has been at work here and why ARCHITECTS ARE the biggest LOSERS in the contemporary marketplace.
Feel free to email me at RSOarchitect@gmail.com if you want me to help you locate a copy of the article.
piggy -- your rants against the AIA are both silly and ill-informed. AIA is nothing more than a member-led organization, made up entirely of people like you and me. Your attempts to make the AIA a boogey man in all of this is, at best, a bizarre form of self-loathing, since we are the AIA, whether we're dues paying members or not. The AIA pursues the agenda its members require of it ... if you don't like that agenda, pay your dues and participate in a process of change.
At a much broader level, the AIA's prime function is to deliver programs and services aimed at assisting its members in the practice of architecture - each professional is free to drink from that well, or not.
To blame the AIA for our individual or collective failures (or to give the AIA credit for our individual or collective success) is misdirected and non-productive. I stand by comments I've made earlier -- we each are responsible for making our own way in this profession. It's infantile to rail against an institution of volunteers when you're not happy with your own circumstances.
And, for the record, I know many registered architects who are quite happy using R.A. after their names.
Obviously you haven't been at a cocktail party with doctors & lawyers lately. Doctors whine and bitch that they spend all their time doing paperwork and/or how the gov't does't pay enough for Medicare claims, etc. Attorneys love to bitch about bad corporate clients, monotony of work, etc. Point is, everyone complains about their job in some form or another. The difference is, as many Architects see it, those other professions on average earn 2-4 time multiples of what an Architect does.
Financial security goes a long way to being able to "leave work at work." Office stress like long hours and deadlines is way easier to deal with than the stress of worrying how to pay the mortgage or contemplating dropping insurance, etc. In all honesty, it was hard to "make it" as an Architect in good times. Right now I think people are downright scared...and it's showing up as anger, i.e. all the bashing of senior management, AIA, et. al.
Young Architects (25-40yrs) are in a particular bad place right now. Most have student loans, those that bought a house probably did so at peak prices and these are the prime years for having a family. Scraping by on the salary of a staff Architect is tough, but then this economy hits and 30%+ are suddenly out of work, the rest under extreme salary & benefit cuts. It's easy to get pissed off. I totally understand and do see this group as vicitims of things totally out of their own control.
They see themselves as winners and they go about making that happen, even in the face of adversity.
I've brought in clients that want to build but can't get financing. What do you say to that? There are things completely out of our control that are crushing this industry. Suggestions on how to overcome this adversity would be nice?
i still havent seen a reason why the AIA is such an enemy and is any more responsible for what is going on than individual architects are
and blaming them/ ranting at them/ etc certainly seems just pointless as this is not an AIA website
perhaps if the point of any of this is to actually fix something that is so egregiously bad and terrible, then the time would be better served speaking with local AIA chapter members or others who are involved in making the decisions
it's much easier to help change or fix something from the inside rather than a random messageboard
aqua ... I take your point about the financial markets. Like so many others, our practice has been hit very hard because our clients cannot obtain financing for good projects. This problem I lay directly at the feet of Bush and friends, who spent 8-years ignoring fundamental financial market regulation and wrecking our economy. But, those are macro-economic problems that affect us all, regardless of how one earns a living.
As for suggestions, diversification is the key and something that is within the reach of every firm. The design firms hardest hit have been those that relied most heavily on clients who need to borrow huge quantities of other people's money to build. Firms with a base of work tied to the public sector or to health care have suffered much less than firms that depend on developer or commercial work.
Starting now, there simply is no quick fix for firms heavily reliant on developer and/or commercial clients -- the trick for those firms is to find ways to survive until the economy bounces back. However, if one takes a longer view -- a view beyond this current recession -- starting now to broaden and diversify a firm's client base and revenue sources will, over time, provide greater economic stability for the firm when the next downturn hits -- and it will hit.
As for the other professions, yeah everybody bitches in a climate like this, but I still say all those lawyers, doctors, accountants and developers drive better cars and live in bigger houses than do we. Their mentality is not to suffer and accept.
I definitely agree with you on this one stone, "...but I still say all those lawyers, doctors, accountants and developers drive better cars and live in bigger houses than do we. Their mentality is not to suffer and accept."
Artists have always been at the bottom of the food chain of all societies...suffer and accept might even be their common slogan. And before anyone starts attacking Piggy about this (please disagree on the merits of an argument if you wish) and turns this into an ad hominem remember that I didn't make up the rules of the marketplace.
THe further the profession gets from emphasizing the role of "art" and "design" in its offerings the more profitable it will become. Unfortunately, this is exactly why the profession finds itself in a black hole right now and based on current trajectories won't be extracting itself anytime soon if ever.
Stone
I worked in the health care sector . And yes although they didn't suffer as much as Corporate Interiors for example, they did suffer and it started before the recession.
Overall an Architects market is getting smaller and smaller. This is why I believe traditional firms are going to be obsolete in the future. We lost three healthcare jobs to contractors,, not architects. These were renovation jobs ,but clients used to think that even renovations were something that they need to hire an architect for. Not anymore. Most of the time in hospitals a Contractor has more of a relationship with the client than any architect , so what happens is that the contractor figures out that I can hire one architect on their staff to stamp drawings and offer those services to the client directly. They are taking on more liability but they are accepting this in order to get the jobs. It had seriously gotten to the point where we were only asked for proposals when it was Required by the STATE or a new building or additions and we all know that renovations help to keep a firm alive in most cases.
It also got to a point where developers stopped hiring architects for medical office buildings in our area. They just hired an Archtiect to be on their staff as well and a bunch of cad guys and replicated the one project we did do for them in the past. This is the thing I was completely floored by. Coming out of school I had no idea that we lacked ownership of our projects. I may have been Naive but I thought that was illegal but apparently it isn't.
lanah may I ask what state and city you are in?
(Honestly I would decline to answer such a question myself...probably end up with archinect & associates surrounding my house at midnight with pitchforks and torches ablaze).
Charlotte, NC
lanah,
Shigeru Ban had similar comment like you on WSJ article "What's next: Architecture".
link
What hit me the most is Ban's answer to "What's next for architecture?"
"Historically, architects worked for privileged people, religious groups, noblemen. Now architects are working for big corporations, governments, rich people trying to display their power and money by monumental architecture. It is the same."
Well well, I hear you, it takes a real man to go out on his own at night when it is cold and raining, I think you should make sacrifices and take risks even if it means moonlightning, start a firm, be the total opposite of those turds running your company, start you own thing, you're licensed!
nah architecture is just degrading
but it is sort of like the military, it breaks you down to build you back up
Life in general is degrading.
Most relevant thread on archinect, ever! I cannot agree with syp more about how one's passion for the job and being severely underpaid for the incredible time and effort invested in an architectural education can have any logical connection, if at all. Does that mean that the more passion you have, the more you should be able to withstand abuse from architecture firms that eat their young (and seasoned professionals too?)? I do not know where some people get this mentality that Architecture does not "owe" you anything, therefore you shouldn't be expected to be paid more than a certain amount or progress past the level of CAD monkey if you've been working for several years. How naive/brainwashed/submissive should you be to invest a dis-proportionally large amount of money and hard work into an architecture education, only to be told that it is wrong to desire self-actualization in the form of fair compensation and advancement in the profession?
Doesn't help that the "hippie-flotsam" recent grads in arch schools are being fed contemporary theory drivel from educators who haven't kept in touch with current conditions in the professional world since they graduated.
I'm 26 and decidedly NOT going for a Master's in Architecture despite receiving several acceptances from good schools. I'm shrewd and intuitive to know what's good for me and what's not. I think the dealbreaker though, was graduating from Yale as an undergrad architecture major and being offered a measly $7.50 to work as an intern for a year in NYC by the current YSOA Chair of the Admissions Committee (you can look him up, I'm not going to post his name). How is one expected to even survive in NYC on that sort of salary? He also graciously reminded beforehand that I had to "have financial backup in the form of parental support" to "cover expenses". Needless to say, I said "no".
Shame.
9 years since the first post. Here we go.
I've been in the industry for 10 years. I am not licensed and it is not a passion. My designs are okay, prettier than most but I know I'm not going to be the next Gehry or Calatrava or Hadid.
Instead, I try to find joy in something else. I quite enjoy dealing with building codes and authorities. In fact, it's my forte. I'd like to pretend I'm a lawyer, finding loopholes or ways around the code that can help solve my client's problems. This got me by for years but I've just resigned and now am trying to switch careers.
IMHO, what the OP wrote has some truth in it and it is a global pandemic. Let's take passion out of the equation for a second and see the job of an average architect for what it is. The amount of work we put in is simply too great for the remuneration we receive. I think there is something wrong with the system. We design places so it concerns the welfare and safety of people. We all know how complicated building codes can get. It's a huge responsibility to take on yet our service is undervalued, especially in big firms. They are the ones who can land big projects with good remuneration yet the profit are not being passed down to the average employees.
Some members here keep professing their passion for architecture despite the working condition. While I applaud your dedication, I think it's not right to admonish anyone taking issue with the remuneration as simply 'whining'. I think there is a legitimate issue about the amount of effort given vs. the remuneration received.
However, I think there's a difference between working in a corporate setting and setting up your own firm, which most architects could do if they want to.
My first job was with this small firm, doing mostly small residential projects. The bosses didn't believe in overtime and I always left office on time. I recall having to work on Saturdays and holidays but those were rare and when we did, it was out of necessity. But small firms have limited exposure. It was my first job and I wanted to "see the world" and so I left. I ended up joining a bigger firm. Right away didn't like the corporate culture but persevered, and learned the intricacies of office politics. Got exposed to big projects like I wanted to and realized it was not as glam from the inside. Then this firm was acquired by a much bigger firm. More bureaucracy and paperwork followed, and I really felt treated like a commodity instead of a human being. I drew the line so I quit. Now I'm looking to pivot my career elsewhere because I don't see career in architecture as a sustainable one for me.
My aunt is also an architect.She tried working in a firm but hated the long hours. She quit after 2 days and started her own firm. It's a small firm, not at all famous or eccentric but she gets steady jobs. It helps that she is a sociable person and her husband is a contractor. Her family is the richest among the siblings, not sure if it's her income or the husband's but my guess is, her husband makes more money but she designed their house so they look like they live a good life. It's a good combo, really. Her designs are not flamboyant, in fact, they're quite modest but always put together. I once interned with her and she never started with big ideas. She just did what the client wants, ensured lighting and ventilation are taken care of, and then added a little design flair here and there. Simple. The fact that she is her own boss works well for her. She gets to be there for her kids, picking them up or dropping them off at school, being home to have lunch with them. She is not famous but she lives the best scenario being an average architect can give you.
So, marry a contractor and start out on your own :)
Yes, it seems to be the best plan
Great post... that’s where I want to be... I’m trying to cross that bridge to doing my own thing.
Do it! I think the key to my aunt's success (besides hard work, of course) is a good dose of humility. She doesn't kid herself that she is some big-time architect and she doesn't try to land big-time projects, so I guess she attracts clients with similar mindset (the kind with realistic expectations). I've had reasonable clients and the stress level was never that high. Nothing worse than average clients who can only afford to hire average firms but demand something spectacular as if it was designed by Calatrava (but also insists on low budget, zero maintenance, and can't deal with irregular spaces).
experience..... I hope eveyone at AIA your post, so they can understand the frustration of our field.
Wish you the best!
didn’t realize how old this post is, but still revalant... I am where the OP is today. Same age, freshly licensed, and in a cage being poked and ready to bite. Wish we can get an update from OP to see where he is today. That would be interesting
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