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the New York "Time to go to War" is hardly credible anymore
i simply find it ironic that archinect's crack obama campaign team derides hillary for her alleged negativity when in fact the vast majority of beta, dubk, and evilp's posts about the election have been negative attacks on clinton. pot meet kettle. kettle-pot. then when asked to make a substantial argument in favor of obama can come up with little more than his charisma and electability (hmmm, haven't we seen this before? oh yeah, 1980, 1984, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004).
you could set an example by making a substantial argument in favor of hillary. i haven't seen many of those around here either.
i believe the times editorial staff has done that for me.
but if you want to know my personal reasons, my three biggest issues going into this election are foreign policy, the economy, and the environment. of the candidates, i believe hillary has the broadest understanding of foreign policy. i believe her pull-out strategy from iraq is the most reasonable, balancing our own interests with creating a stable iraq. i also think bill will be a great resource to her; he was a master with foreign policy. second, the economy, she's a free trade advocate that accepts the inevitability of globalization and seeks to position the u.s. advantageously within global markets. third, the environment, i think she's weaker in this respect, and my feelings are closer to john edwards' that the environment is going to be the new economy of the twentieth-first century and that federal dollars need to be poured into both public and private research and development of new technology.
i also like that hillary would be our first female president. i think she's smart and will be a very strong leader.
interesting point fidler, but i don't think you can really make that comparison. archinectors aren't really running for office. so why would what we say reflect our candidate's views, opinions, etc or the way they conduct themselves or their campaign?
i can't say that i think all the shenanigans are in any way unfair or unprecedented, why should we expect different?
also, i think voting for someone because its not someone else is a perfectly valid argument today. so regardless of their candidates views, they are more opposed to yours.
eh well, i'm no political junkie
NAFTA and Somalia were awesome...not to mention Waco...booo bad clinton family politics.
Jfid - your right - Obams got charisma. Thats about all I want in a president. You seem to underestimate the power of personality in becoming an effective leader. Being president isnt all flow charts and
crack teams and comittees. I'd like to know what your beloved Hillary has ever done? At least in the State of Illinois, one of the most radicaly split red downstate, blue upstate splits in the nation, Obama actualy was a wildly personable bi partisan figure who was able to comprimise without people or sides feeling alienated. With Hill dog expect a continuation of stale, tired party line politics as usual. Only this time it comes in bad pant suites.
Jason your forgeting the elimination of red cell - our anti terrorist unit, a 30% reduction in the military and reduction in securities policing. Let the good times roll again!
ja, you can let the NYT think for you and speak for you, i'll let the man - Obama - do it for me; he's much more eloquent.
...oh and before i forget, the NYT endorsement is hardly glowing, it's almost apologetic in its endorsing of Billary.
i would argue the times' endorsement is balanced, but their statement of endorsement very clearly states, "The Times’s editorial board strongly recommends that they select Hillary Clinton as their nominee for the 2008 presidential election." that's in no uncertain terms.
while i respect the times, i also layed out my reasons for supporting hillary above. i don't think it's entirely fair to judge her based off of bill's administration. i believe that bill's administration gives an indication of how hillary's may be, but she is her own person. judging her based on a unique situation in bill's administration like somalia seems completely off-base.
Wow, my first time visiting either the Obama or Hillary thread. You guys are brutal towards Hillary. The worst argument you guys seem to have about her is her vote on Iraq, which I think was very poor judgement. However, her plan to withdraw troops from Iraq and end the war seems much more developed than Obama's. At first glance, they are rather similar, but Obama leaves out funding for reconstruction of Iraq.
Obama's healthplan, though sounds nice on paper, would be considerably harder to get through Congress than Hillary's. Hillary has a lot more experience with this than Obama, and I think the decision to allow choice is really key.
Both really want similar things. I think she has more experience and is better equipped to be president. However, if Obama wins the candidacy I will have no problem voting for him either.
well said, beefeater. i agree on all points (even support of obama if he should win the nomination).
billary with rezko (the chicago 'slum lord')!!
MSNBC had a pole yesterday that showed this amazing gap between Hillary voters would support Obama whereas Obama supports were only half or so as likely to support Hill Dog. The implications for running against a Republican are huge. Obama appeals to a large numer of moderate republicans who will likely back McCain before the Clintons. Its a bad situation for the Dems.
i know electibility is your main issue, evilp. i want a bit more out of my candidate.
frankly, while obama supporters have cried racism on many occasions against hillary, i think this country will actually have a much harder time accepting a woman as president. many of the problems hillary detractors have cited against her have to do with her relationship to bill. that in a roundabout, but intrinsic way is about her being a married woman and what that means in our society. how often we see in politics strong women presented as being offensive, butch or unladylike! janet reno, nancy pelosi, condoleeza rice. i'm by no means saying these sentiments are held by all or even many obama supporters; such criticism is primarily coming from conservatives, but i have seen such criticism come up repeatedly even on archinect.
ja, check out my DESPICABLE comment on this thread:http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=50618_300_42_0
and tell me that what the Clintons are doing does not strike you like racism. None of us work for this campaign, so don't take this personally, but the way you just turned around Bill's attacks towards Obama as evidence of misogyny made my head hurt.
This is the Clinton politics, spin everything to the point that nothing matters. They can say whatever they want, they can have a nasty divisive scheme but somehow end up looking like the victims.
evil, if this continues (as Bill already promised it would) I think that Billary will kill the dems for a generation. This at a time when this election should be like taking candy from a republican baby. the MSNBC poll, I think is right.
i didn't mention anything about bill's "attacks" towards obama. in fact, i haven't even been following this supposed story. and i'm not claiming that any racism that obama may be subject to on the campaign trail has anything to do with hillary's sex, other than for the first time we have two viable "minority" candidates. i do believe however that sexism manifests itself in far subtler ways than racism and for that reason, hillary's critics have used rhetoric that can be construed or in my opinion actually is at its heart sexist.
ok, I REALLY do not want to play the sex or race game (as to me personally is not about either), BUT women are not a minority, they are in fact the majority.https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People
woefully and shamefully underrepresented=YES
But it is not about her sex subtle or not. It is about her and her husband using underhanded nasty RACIST methods to get elected. Oh, and this is about her husband only as much as SHE has made it about him.
I would find it hard to believe that this is not part of HER strategy, using her husband as an attack dog, and then as people criticize that charging them with misogyny.
this is part of the strategy always reminding people that one is black one is a woman: THERE ARE MORE WOMEN. If you play racial-gender politics Obama clearly loses that battle (less African-Americans (12%) + White Backlash). Women comprise 51% of the population. The Clintons have a racist strategy because they know it will work, if you paint Obama as the black candidate, he will not go far.
Simple and shameful mathematics.
and I'm out!
Charisma is all you want out of your president? Seriously? Didn't W get in because of his charisma and how he charmed the republican leadership to back him? Don't you guys not remember the top brass on the right visiting crawford and coming back saying "he's very good in person"?
Yes she's divisive, but as jafidler points out her record stands head and shoulders above obama's. I like Obama, it's just too soon. His whole senate career has been spent running for the presidency. I don't really feel comfortable handing the keys to the country to him. I feel one day he will be a good president, but not now.
HILLARY IS NOT BILL. She's much closer to Al Gore in postion and demeanor. Strong on social and environmental issues and tough enough in foreign policy, although she does share Bill's position on the economy. Which last i remembered, Bill had set up Social Security to be solvent and created a massive budget surplus. The one thing I didn't like about bill, was his varying stances in certain theatres overseas. yes he got milosevic without invading, but he was a little too soft in other areas such as africa.
And if McCain wins the right all we will hear about is experience...what is Obama's answer to that? "I'm a great orator"?
Bill's personal morality aside, he did great things for this country.
15th amendment - 1870
19th amendment - 1920
that's why i put "minority" in quotes. maybe i should rephrase to "non-white male" candidate to be more specific. if that offended, sorry.
i have no interest in playing the racism or sexism game either, but this is coming far more from the obama side than it is the clinton side. even on this board, obama supporters do not want to talk about issues, they want to talk about everything but.
The country doesnt need any more experiance politicians. Great oraters are needed in times like these when theres much confusion and doubt. Inspiration can move markets and national mood. Ive said it before in other threads and Im going to get slammed again but...
George Bush was the absolute right candiate for his era and time. Hes not the right guy any more. I voted for him twice and think he was 100% better choice than Kerry or Gore.
Times are changing and I think Obama is the right person for the time. Hes a new face that will go miles in the image for America. He represents a chance to symbolicly end bipartisan frustration because new. Charisma and general likeability. Never underestimate the power of good attitude - its infectious. Likewise so is negativity.
Jafid - really what issues are so pressing that we need a candidate with a plan - no one knows what "issues" will be around next year when the person takes office. Im voting for the person who will best respond to issues we dont even know about yet. Who has the faculties to face surprises inteligently and creatively - not tiredly and self effacingly.
How will Billary get you all that you desire if she from day one has over half the country against her in? Their policies are almost identical, but I would vote that Obama will be able to get more done.
IF Billary republicans will make their life hell, then they will recapture the senate and/or house and try to impeach AGAIN. We will not have an EFFECTIVE president and the collective American head will spin as lawyers tell us the meaning of 'is'.
one last thought:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4hUIvS_uEc
make him the issue not her - these folks are sick
whoa - did he just say Clinton is the legal rep for the emir of Dubai at $10 million a year?
CORRECTIONS TO POST ABOVE:
IF Billary WINS republicans will make their life hell, then they (republicans will recapture the senate and/or house and try to impeach AGAIN. We will not have an INEFFECTIVE president and the collective American head will spin as lawyers tell us the meaning of 'is'.
No one knows what issues will be around next year? the economy, iraq, healthcare, imigration, gas prices and the environment should still be issues next year.
The right will fight any democrat.The race will be close no matter who is running. Obama will not get an LBJ type mandate so it's not he'll have less people fighting him than Hillary.
On what grounds would the right bring impeachment charges against Hillary?
THEaquino, what you are saying contradicts my personal experience in red states and among TRUE conservatives. I don't think people appreciate how in red states Hillary is loathed. It is worse than Bush among democrats, many believe she is the anti-christ, and I aint kidding. It is no simple hate, it is pathological.
Republicans like Obama i.e. our very own evilplatypus. I think they will be willing to give him a chance.
dude, they impeached clinton over a blowjob, you dont think they can find something to impeach Hillary? Shoot, under that type of zealous scrutiny I would have been impeached 50 times in my short life.
the economy is always an issue. Never changes. Its amazing how little control presidents have over economies. Thats a good thing.
Imigration - again always has been always will be an issue. Nothings gonna change. No need to. We have a healthy balance of supply and demand on that front. The country this debate should be happening in is Mexico - why they all want to begin with?
Healthcare - its been 25 years and no one is going to do a thing - both Hillary and Obomb are wrong but its a non issue - the fact is the Health care system is fine. The insurance sytem is broken. Governments all ready involved in this too deep and theres no real market competition between underwriters - those who insure the providers. Gas prices - a change in mood will be the most effective price preasure to the downward side. Bush's actions have oil trading up every time he talks and no doubt every crazy ass in the mid east gets nuts when he's speaking so it leads to higher price speculation.
So really these issues are supurfolous - the real test is the unknons - for example did Bush know that as he was sworn in $3 trillion dollars of paper profit would evaporate from the Clinton Fuled Tech bubble? did he not respond to the destruction of the midwest steel industry and Chinese dumping allowed by the Clintons with trade tariffs on Chinese steel? Did he look like an ineffective, scared to use our military intelectual like Bill with his prissy airstrikes in Kosovo, after we were attacked by muslim extremists? No - and none of these were issues in 1999/2000.
In fact I think the biggest issues that year were WTO riots in Seattle, Forest fires in Calif. and faith based organizations - are they elegibale for federal funds - absolutely pointless issues in the long run.
Elimelech, I will admit that my exposure to the far right is probably limited by me living in MA and growing up in CA. But do enough of them like Obama to tip a state like Georgia, Alabama or Texas? I think Hillary is liked enough in the swing states like Ohio, Meechigan, Oregon and Pennsylvania to win.
I'm not saying I don't like Obama, I just don't hink he's ready right now and I can see him losing to McCain fairly easily.
McCain vs. Hillary MSNBC has McCain nationaly 4% victory margin. McCain Obama tied
Hillary vs. Romeny Hillary by 9%
i was hoping to suggest detroit mayor kwame kilpatrick run for president because i'd actually bother to vote for him...unfortunately, he's kind of shot himself in the foot with the text messages.
as for presidential election, i'm pretty sure that i'll abstain this time from voting. i'd be more interested in politics/government if the michiganistan idea would gain more traction. oddly enough, that actually felt like a productive thread
The 3 trillion dollars did not totally evaporate, a large portion was given to the wealthy in the forms of large tax cuts in both personal income and corporate taxes, which was the source of the surplus to begin with. Personally I would have seen that money go to social porgrams or inventing new technologies like the internet.
Even though I do agree with you about Kosovo, both Al and Hillary pushed Bill for stronger action as well. He did well not to put troops on the ground in Kosovo or Northern Ireland. BUt I ask this, which will be better off once we are gone? Iraq or Kosovo?
And believe the charge was purjury, not fellatio.
He would have been a great president. Better than Bill. The foundation that Bill laid for the solvency of both Social Security and Medicare would have not been torn down. The US would be on the forefront of environmental and alternative fuel issues. He just tried to be everything to everyone and forgot who he was. Watch the Debates in 92 THAT was masterful speaking. Even in 2000, if you read the transcripts of the debates I think a lot of opinions about him would change. Even after the election when he had the beard and rolled up sleeves, where was that guy during the campaign? THAT guy wins in a landslide.
First off, jafidler, I hardly think my above comment qualifies as an "attack" on Hillary when one of my first sentences is this:I want to like Hillary, I really do....and I'd like to think that if she wins the nomination, I could support her.
But no one has even addressed the issues that I brought up. Are they really that impossible to believe? Dick Morris wrote the first article that I posted and he was an advisor to Bill Clinton. What about the push-polling? Where there's smoke, there's fire.....???
Ugh. I hate politics.
I want you to look at the amazing growth in taxes that occured during the Clinton Presidancy. Yes He balanced the budget after his first term. He also raised the shit out of taxes, especially medium to small businesses. The Clintons are the classic big Government, Big Business and the poor people who need them democrats. The Democrats need a new direction or they will be devoured by the Republicans - both right wing and moderates.Federal Budget 1992-2000
"i do believe however that sexism manifests itself in far subtler ways than racism and for that reason, hillary's critics have used rhetoric that can be construed or in my opinion actually is at its heart sexist."
This is the biggest crock of shit. Do you have any idea what a fucking by shes gotten? Shes running bar-none the sleaziest most dishonest campaign of this election cycle and NO ONE calls her on it. The drug dealer shit? Boldface lying her ass off in the debates? Sending Bill out there with these cock-eyed heard-from-from-my-daughter-who-heard-from-some-guy-in-a-lobby accusations of voter suppression while is wife is suing to close caucuses in areas friendly to Obama. Intensionally driving race issues in south carolina to drive up the racist vote? Romney has nothing on that. Come to think of it, can you imagine anyone giving a flying fuck about her if she wasnt a woman? I mean besides being first lady, what else has she got? What makes her any more interesting than Chris Dodd? This supposed 35 years of experience? We must have just missed what a grand mover and shaker she was when she was 25. If she had tried to run for president in 2000 she would have been laughed off the stage. And what has she done in the last 6 besides vote for this hideous fucking invasion? I mean she unloads all this vitriolic tripe on barack and then when no one likes her she pulls this academy-award "Oh dont beat up on me Im a woman." shit. Gag me. And now she has bill out there deep-sixing what little credibility they have and tearing the whole fucking democratic party apart to to score petty fucking media points. Shes so dependent upon him its fucking offensive. What ever happened to standing up on your own fucking credentials?
If we sound pissed, we are, and we have a right to be. The whole basis for her campaign has become racial and political divisiveness and intensional deception.
Run (AWAY) Hillary (REALLY) Run (AWAY)
i have no, zero, nada problem with a woman being elected president. i just want one with some integrity and not someone who until 2 weeks ago didn't speak with her own voice. pray tell, when she finally did find her own voice, who is the one doing the most talking?
liberty, dubk, ratio, sarah, please run for the white house, i'd gladly vote for anyone of you.
if experience is the true measure, then why not Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer or any number of other more dedicated and qualified women?
Here! here! Don't forget Diane Feistein...Nancy would be great though.
Evil...5%? while income increased 10%? That's bad? Meanwhile Bush has outspent any president in history.Good times
I'd glady be a little more socialist and pay my taxes for expanded social programs like social security and medicare.
No - u got it backwards - thats 85% more revenue generated by taxes than when he started!!!!
you're right, sorry, but you can't say that W ISN'T about big government.