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Sarah Hamilton

Nam, I don't have a teaching degree, and I still student taught for a semester, and had a mentor last year.  Most alternative certification programs go over classroom management.  Unfortunately, most practices are geared toward elementary students.  Rewarding good behavior with "smellies" (flavoured chapstick rubbed on the back of the hand) isn't going to work with a 17 year old boy.

Oct 22, 13 10:04 am  · 
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Play is learning, every parent knows that.

EVERYTHING is learning. What you learn depends on what you are exposed to. It doesn't matter whether an experience is "good" or "bad". A wide variety of experiences including failure is good. Our job as parents (and educators) is to facilitate experiences for our children. 

Watch TV and learn to be stupid.

Oct 22, 13 10:09 am  · 
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curtkram

i wasn't thinking about 'teaching the test,' but that happens and is not particularly helpful if you want to teach kids to learn for themselves.  there is a lot of pressure to go that route though, and it would be better if it wasn't there.  still, there needs to be some sort of organization and guidance so teachers know what needs to be taught and a general overview of how to teach it.  when you have kids graduating from high school that can't read, that's a real problem and it has to be addressed.  "teaching the test" is how that was addressed.  it's a way to get a few bad schools to perform better, but was pushed on all schools including the good ones.

i'm pretty sure i'm more angry than i was in 2007.  too many problems, not enough solutions, and far too many people around me think that shutting down the government is somehow a good thing.  when i was a kid, conservatives believed in taking responsibility and working hard.  now it's all about blaming obama and throwing temper tantrums when you don't get your way.  it's very sad.

Oct 22, 13 10:20 am  · 
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sarah good point i forgot about alternative certification programs, although it sounds like those offer some of the same benefits at least in Texas...

I had a mentor my first year but was given temporary certificate (after passing some tests) and allowed to teach right out of the gate.

Oct 22, 13 10:32 am  · 
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Every day I read something even worse than what I read than yesterday.

Yesterday I read this, and today I can't think straight.

Oct 22, 13 10:37 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

I'm not angry, frsutrated and feeling misunderstood as usual.

When I say conformity, this is what I mean:

"I am only just realising the absolute freedom of my scheme of Education. I see that all outside compulsion is wrong, that inner compulsion is the only value. And if Mary or David wants to laze about, lazing about is the one thing necessary for their personalities at the moment. Every moment of a healthy child's life is a working moment. A child has no time to sit down and laze. Lazing is abnormal, it is a recovery, and therefore it is necessary when it exists." A.S. Neill, Founder of Summerhill School.

It means the same as Play/Everything is Learning.

 

 

Oct 22, 13 10:46 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

This might help explain how my experiences shape my views too: We have a pre-k student who talks accurately about quantum physics.

Oct 22, 13 11:01 am  · 
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OK so I'm the one who must be stupid because I'm not gleaning anything useful from your last two posts, tint.  How is the education system in our country today about conformity?  I gave the example of teaching kids to stand in line, can you give one?

Oct 22, 13 11:27 am  · 
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I also gave the example that telling a kid "You Must Learn Math" without giving any context as to why is conformity.  Do you agree?

Oct 22, 13 11:29 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Ok, like an example would be how schools put you in groups by age. Why so little cross peer group social learning? Must conform to the standard.

Oct 22, 13 11:30 am  · 
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SneakyPete

The greatest thing my parents ever taught me was to question. They were quite different than I am in terms of beliefs and values, but they taught me to respect others, learn what I could from them, then make my own decisions.

 

(Incidentally, I was a rather poor student, was considered a troublemaker, and am now working in architecture. Coincidence? You decide...)

Oct 22, 13 11:35 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Here is another conformity: while learning CAN occur in neatly packaged 45 minute chunks called Math and Science that occurs in a classroom, but it is most certainly is not going to be the best way in most cases. That is just what I think.

As for your example of telling a kid they must learn math without any context as to why sounds stupid, I don't know about it being an example of conformity. I don't get it. Like the student just has to do it and that's that. I don't think anybody thinks that is a good idea.

Oct 22, 13 11:43 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

But, Tint, that is EXACTLY how algebra, geometry, and calculus are taught in most school.

Solve for X.  Why not just give word problems?  You end up solving for X, but it has meaning.  Honestly, I suck at physics for this very reason.  I was never able to figure out the formulas needed to tell you the time the ball would land at the bottom of the hill when all I was given was the height of the hill and material of the ball.  Give me a formula and I can plug in numbers, but ask me to tell you which formula is needed?  Not gonna happen.

Oct 22, 13 11:50 am  · 
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SneakyPete

The only way I learned statics was by forcing the professor to explain what the formulas meant. If I was simply plugging in numbers I never understood anything, but as soon as he backed up and went over the concepts behind the formulas and why they were important, it clicked.

Oct 22, 13 11:53 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

I still can't balance a truss.  It has to be zero, of course it's zero.  

Oct 22, 13 11:57 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Ok, I get it then. Yes, that is conforming to an ineffective ideology that doesn't work. But who is working to change that?

We teach visualization when we teach math. Why can't schools do that? Because that isn't what they do.

Oct 22, 13 11:58 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Exactly sarah - visualization. As soon as you "saw" it, you got it.

Oct 22, 13 11:59 am  · 
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vado retro

lots of necters getting married!

Oct 22, 13 12:03 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Oops, I mean, Sneaky Pete.

Oct 22, 13 12:06 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

I love this: Summerhill School is an independent British boarding school that was founded in 1921 by Alexander Sutherland Neill with the belief that the school should be made to fit the child, rather than the other way around.

Oct 22, 13 12:23 pm  · 
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Thank you, tint, for those examples.  I'm happy to say that in my son's IB curriculum *every* example you give is taught in the way you think it should be. 

-Classes are combined age groups, and older students are teamed with younger for activities

-Curriculum is one central theme (they call it a unit) taught across all disciplines.  They do 6 different units per academic year, so for one sixth of each year a unit - the most recent one my son did was "I Know You Are But What Am I?" and dealt with who we are as individuals, family relationships, community relations, and how those relationships are organized - that unit theme is present in math, science, art, writing, etc. classes

-I'm not sure what you mean by "visualization" but my school uses Project SEED which includes showing graphically the relationships between numbers at all levels of computation (counting to algebra and geometry) and a hand signal system for finding answers

-The whole curriculum allows for "inquiry" meaning students direct a lot of the curriculum themselves.  They also do self-directed community-based projects from 4th grade up.

So it's not a la-la-land of students making mud pies at age 14 but if a student could demonstrate how making mud pies ties into a larger theme of study they could certainly pursue it. I wouldn't say the school is made to fit the child, but the child can shape the school somewhat to fit what they and their classmates need.

Oct 22, 13 1:46 pm  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

You're just trying to make us jealous, Donna.  No fair!

Oct 22, 13 2:06 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

That sounds great. Is your kid at that school because the regular school offers little to no sensory and social engagement of apparent value?

By visualizing, I mean picturing. Using the movie screen in your mind. Know what I mean?

Oct 22, 13 2:11 pm  · 
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All IB curricula do this, Sarah, and many more schools are adopting this curriculum.  Oh, prolly not in Texas.  Sorry.  Your son is in some awesome school now, though, right? That you waited all night in line to register him for?

tint, we chose the school because the local public school is dismal, as most of our public schools (I mean in my city) are.  But all of our public magnet programs are excellent or very good and they all use a specific curriculum - IB, Montessori, environmental, gifted, project-based.  So I guess I feel like a typical traditional public school curriculum teaches kids to sit down, shut up, and memorize (aka conformity), while non-traditional schools teach something about how to learn. Of course - and this is CRITICAL - the public magnet programs self-select for parents who care very much about their kid(s)' school, so they come from a family environment that supports and emphasizes education.

But the other reason we chose the school is it's the closest to our house and I wanted to be in a neighborhood school.  We just got lucky that it has a great curriculum, too.

I can only solve problems graphically. Which I guess is visually.  I teach Angus how to draw things to organize his thoughts all the time, but he tends to then focus on the details of the drawing rather than the problem at hand.  He's getting better, though, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being a visual thinker.

Oct 22, 13 2:34 pm  · 
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miles thanks for that depressing bit of reading...!

Oct 22, 13 2:34 pm  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

I chose to skip Miles' link.  I was scared.

 

Abram is in a regular public school, but in a dual-language class.  All of the native English speakers are "gifted," and must be to get in, but it's also the only class available for the native Spanish speakers, who don't have to be gifted to get in.  

Oct 22, 13 2:38 pm  · 
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3tk

Didn't they introduce "new math" back in the 80s/90s with lots of word problems?  I remember a bunch of fuss that had finally died down when I wen through elementary school, by which time we had the change/money, a and b are heading toward each other, etc.

I went to an 'open school' in Minneapolis for a couple of years: they mixed grades (4~6, 3&4, etc depending on the teacher) and subjects were taught based on level (so some 4th graders took math with 6th) within each class.  Subjects usually got 2~3 sessions a week that floated and much of the time was 'free time' to study, work on problem sets, etc.  We also had 'craft time' where you could bring in anything from drawing to model kits and an hour in the morning to discuss news.  Desks were placed where ever we wanted (we had a loft space) and the ultimate class punishment was to sit in rows.  It didn't work for everyone and some kids ended up transferring to a 'regular' public school but it was great.

Oct 22, 13 2:54 pm  · 
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snooker-doodle-dandy

Now lets all move our desks around so were in a circle...and get educated.

Oct 22, 13 6:33 pm  · 
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Get educated by doing something real. Sitting in a classroom isn't it.

Oct 22, 13 7:04 pm  · 
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Tint no offense but I find your comments opaque.

My education was a wasteland. I learned because I was bright enough to decide i didn't give a fuck at an early age and did what I wanted. Can't say things are any better although what Donna describes sounds brilliant.

When I was a kid it didn't matter cuz we were all fodder for the hog plant or the army and the world sort of was set up to deal with that. But hell if that makes any sense to me today. I still wonder a bit if my own parents really thought it was cool or not.
Oct 22, 13 7:19 pm  · 
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-------

Between the Starbucks business and the "Why don't you design what we want?" thread I'm beginning to wonder if somebody demolished a bridge somewhere and now all of the trolls are trying to find a new place to settle.

Oct 22, 13 7:45 pm  · 
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God, exactly, jw468.  I feel like the two threads are related and the new one is intentionally malicious. I'm avoiding it.  Unless I post a photo of troll dolls.

Oct 22, 13 7:50 pm  · 
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But in happy/tragic news, Per is back!  Talking about being crucified for innovating!!!

Oct 22, 13 7:52 pm  · 
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Donna, you saw Rusty dropped by recently too?

Oct 22, 13 7:58 pm  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Donna, I was under the impression that you supported the regular public schools, the ones I now hear you say are overly conforming. I'm pretty sure that is you that is always applauding public school around here. But you are only in support of the public schools that don't act like public schools like the one your son is in... And you don't support private schools or alternative or charter schools because they self select and have a different curriculum? Which is exactly why you like your son's school. Explain, please?

One of my students was failing public school and they wanted to hold her back. I worked with her and helped get her into a highly competitive private IB program. It is $13,000 a semester. Your son is very lucky.

Oct 23, 13 4:26 am  · 
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this article's unfortunate title (because the 'method' isn't radical or new) distracts from the fact that the piece captures this education discussion's themes nicely: http://www.wired.com/business/2013/10/free-thinkers/ ...right down to the fact that juarez correa's classroom approach has been dismissed by his bosses despite his results. 

and this discussion frames the problems nicely, as well. tint (i'm assuming) swims in the floe of ideas that are swirling around the educational community right now. i do, too, to a lesser extent. a lot of folks are trying things, attempting to measure them, adjusting, trying other things.

there are so many alternatives to mainstream public education that it's hard to pin down exactly what constitutes mainstream right now. my girls' regular old public school - not a magnet or in any other way an exception - picks and chooses from self-directed, tech-based, and other models, resulting in its own unique mash-up approach. messy, but it seems to be working well!

our urban school district is grappling right now with whether they should try to get to the one-device-per-child ideal they've talked about for a decade by letting students bring their own devices. more typically-cautious/conservative but resource-strapped rural districts surrounding the city have already been doing this for 4 years!    

there's no one public school benchmark right now. this, i think, is what has triggered the common core. (in addition to the rejection of no child left behind, but that's a different argument.) 

tint's challenge to donna is right on, representing the strange ambivalence among a lot of parents right now - especially those of us who actively support public education. yes, alternative curriculum schools and magnets steal resources from the standard model schools just like charters and voucher-fed private schools, of course. but, no matter what they believe, parents are put in the position of having opportunity for their own kids and they HAVE to pursue those opportunities if they care. 

and the resources get splintered, the choices become a confusing kaleidoscope of overlapping models, and our attempts at parity dissipate. 

that's where we are. 

Oct 23, 13 7:35 am  · 
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OK, #1, my magnet program isn't stealing ANY resources.  In fact we're less subsidized than the regular public schools around us. That's the one thing I'm addressing from your comment, Steven, but overall I'm agreement with you.

Let's take the whole "conformity" thing out of the question, because we can't agree on what it means. I don't think anyone here isn't arguing that part of education's role is to teach children basic modes of behaviour that are socially acceptable - like you can't hit someone to get your way, or that arguments should be based in facts - and while literally that is teaching them to "conform", it's a good thing, right?

I support public schools be cause I think EVERY CHILD SHOULD HAVE EQUAL ACCESS to a high quality education.  Period, end of story.  And we all know that right now they don't, and that private school vouchers make it worse. My public school shows that it's possible for a public school - on a regular budget - to have a fantastic curriculum.  But we also have a highly motivated parent community, which virtually every failing public school does NOT have.

So here is what I support: subsidize failing public schools HIGHLY in ways that support the children attending those schools, which means tons of social workers, special ed teachers, counselors, community outreach organizers, ESL teachers, etc. - all the stuff that is not within "traditional" areas of education.  Let teachers who teach math well teach MATH, and have specialists in the classroom and school who make sure that the students in that math teacher's classroom are having their other needs met in a way that allows them to be focused and able to learn MATH in the math classroom. A food-insecure child, a child who's being sexually abused at home, a bullied child - those kids can't learn math.

This means we have to stop subsidizing charters and privates - because the funding I'm talking about will cover what motivated parents cover in those schools (including my own) already.  Those schools, including mine, don't need to be subsidized because those students are going to do well anyway - their parents will make sure of it, and can afford it.  but if they can't afford it, they should be able to go to a public school and get just as good an education.

But what I'm proposing is the kind of social engineering that makes people freak out, even when versions of it - I'd argue that Head Start is a version of this - show that it's successful.

So tint, isn't your entire business based on what I'm proposing - that some kids just need a special focus on what their specific needs and issues are, and *then* they can succeed?

Oct 23, 13 7:57 am  · 
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gruen
Donna n jw, have you read the nutter in the kufu's counterweights thread? I think he was the one who demolished the bridge.
Oct 23, 13 8:33 am  · 
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curtkram

a lot of under-performing schools under-perform because of the lack of motivation and family structure that doesn't encourage the kids to learn.  like donna mentions, a lot of charter schools and other similar institutions separate the kids that grow up in an nurturing environment from those kids who don't.  if you want to help the kids that don't have good role models outside of school, you need to put them in the middle of a bunch of kids who do have good role models.  it's not just the teachers, but the kids need other kids who are growing up in better environments if that makes sense.

of course, nobody with children will say they want to put their kid in the inner city school to help the other kids.  everyone wants what's best for their own kid, and what's best is often removing your kid from a public school in a bad area and putting them in a charter school or private school.  since i don't have kids, it's easy for me to judge people :)

Oct 23, 13 9:32 am  · 
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curt: yes. exactly. 

Oct 23, 13 9:45 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

Steven, your article was great, and as much as I would love to employ the method in my classroom, when I give students oped challenges with little direction, more than most shut down.  Worse, they assume that I don't know the subject, and report to parents and admins that I'm not teaching.  I have tried in the past giving them a software package and saying "figure it out."  "You've built a 3d model, now put bones in it.  You have the internet and books at your disposal."  I encourage students to ask their peers BEFORE they ask me, and I often will redirect them back to the internet before I help them further.  This actually upset a parent who, during a conference, said "I don't send my daughter to school to learn from other students."

Not all kids, but many in my school simply aren't interested in exploring or playing.  Things have been done for them for too long I think, and it's hard to get them to get off youtube, and DO something.

Oct 23, 13 9:52 am  · 
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Exactly, curt.  So if those private and charter schools didn't exist, what would happen? The motivated parents would go to their regular school and MAKE it a great school.

Which country is it that doesn't allow private schools, and has a fantastic-across-the-board public school system?  Right, Finland.  From the article:

Since the 1980s, the main driver of Finnish education policy has been the idea that every child should have exactly the same opportunity to learn, regardless of family background, income, or geographic location. Education has been seen first and foremost not as a way to produce star performers, but as an instrument to even out social inequality.

In the Finnish view, as Sahlberg describes it, this means that schools should be healthy, safe environments for children. This starts with the basics. Finland offers all pupils free school meals, easy access to health care, psychological counseling, and individualized student guidance.

In fact, since academic excellence wasn't a particular priority on the Finnish to-do list, when Finland's students scored so high on the first PISA survey in 2001, many Finns thought the results must be a mistake. But subsequent PISA tests confirmed that Finland -- unlike, say, very similar countries such as Norway -- was producing academic excellence through its particular policy focus on equity.

That this point is almost always ignored or brushed aside in the U.S. seems especially poignant at the moment, after the financial crisis and Occupy Wall Street movement have brought the problems of inequality in America into such sharp focus. The chasm between those who can afford $35,000 in tuition per child per year -- or even just the price of a house in a good public school district -- and the other "99 percent" is painfully plain to see.

Oct 23, 13 10:04 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

Donna, watch out, you're talking socialism.  That's sure to be a road to demonic possession. 

Oct 23, 13 10:21 am  · 
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I already do yoga, so I'm clearly a socialist satanist.  Fine by me, if we're using *that* guy's definition of "socialism".

Oct 23, 13 10:27 am  · 
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That's quite something Donna

Finland's model is very much in the Japanese viewport just now and I expect it will be copied more and more. Not quite sure what conformity is by your or tint's definition and susoect it is more about myth making than math. Access is much more important.

The one thing I hate here is that my daughter is asked to go to after school tutors in order to prepare for exams to enter high school. The school seems to teach more than enough to help bring about a smart and empathic adult. But the exam pressure feels like the bad old days and it pisses me off to no end. It seems like there is no way out short of leaving the country and I wonder what the govt imagines for its future. It is better than America but not sustainable either. Perhaps the only true answer is to embrace the mishmash Steven describes and be willing to change as the world does.
Oct 23, 13 10:41 am  · 
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SneakyPete

will, you're in Japan, correct?

 

I spent a few months over there (futile attempt at the ultimate in long distance relationships) and was shocked at the amount of importance that was placed on testing. Youth were stressed beyond belief that they wouldn't get into the right program and would be failures.

 

(Hello, by the way, long time lurker, newbie poster)

Oct 23, 13 10:48 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

Will, did you read the article about Japan's focus on academics is creating a lack of creative thinkers?  It was something that was posted on Facebook, so I don't have the link anymore.  Do you see this as an issue?  I feel, with my students at least, that there is a lack of free-thinking and creativity that I don't understand, and wonder if it isn't due to the stress on testing and doing something only one way,

Oct 23, 13 11:08 am  · 
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Sarah Hamilton

And Hi, Pete!

Oct 23, 13 11:08 am  · 
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Wilma Buttfit

Sarah, Are you giving them a question to answer? To the parent who didn't like having her student turn to her peers, can you send her a research article on social learning?

I am in the business of the psychology of learning, which is not education, but obviously related. We bridge the gap between education and healthcare, providing direct targeted instruction with multi-sensory methods to develop underlying skills like symbol processing, phonemic awareness, auditory processing, visualizing, speech, and comprehension so that students can gain confidence and perform better in any situation - classroom or other. We teach students how to learn and we instill a love of learning. We mostly attract learning and behavior disabled students for remediation but everything we do is individualized and we have worked with pre-schoolers and even adults (we had a teacher and an engineer twice). Some of our kids have autism or Asperger's, some have physical disabilities like apraxia, some have emotional disorders. Others with anxiety, developmental delays, FAS, speech impairments, and any kind of learning and communication disorder really. Many have ADD/ADHD. Some are ESL. We work to boost unlabled (regular) kids too, we helped a few get into exclusive schools like the one I helped get into the IB program that I wrote about. We have open enrollment here and many types of schools, sometimes we can also help advise what schools that are best for our students, and there are SOOO many like we haven't even talked about Twice Exceptional or Montessori yet and here there are many, many private schools with different programs. In fact Temple Grandin just opened a school down the road from us for highly functioning autistic students and it is a dream of mine to meet her, it is only a matter of time! We work as a supplement to home school or catch-up for kids who have been out of school for whatever reason, like international travel. I dabble a bit in advocacy too by becoming familiar with special ed laws in order to support the parents who are fighting that battle. We also train teachers and we have student-teachers from the university come observe us for their classes. The principal of a nearby school who makes referrals to us says we "teach therapeutically", which I really like. There is such a thing called education therapy that you can get a degree for it and it is similar to what we do. But not quite, we are a cross-disciplinary boutique start-up, growing and redefining in so many ways, responding to what our community is asking of us by applying the science of learning and the art of therapy to education. I feel like I'm flying 9 miles above the earth when I talk about it because I love it so much. I couldn't dream of a better way to spend my efforts. Thanks for listening... since I am now our marketing and PR person, which is not one of my strengths, I need experience talking about what we do and seeing it across larger contexts, so please feel free to comment or question.

We have been asked to start a charter school by a few of our parents... sigh. Gives me mixed feelings. I am intrigued, but am risk shy right now. Maybe in 5-10 years.

Oct 23, 13 11:58 am  · 
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3tk

Well, if we paid our teachers the way Finland does we'd get a lot more competition from the brightest of our society (well, and the greedy) -but we'd certainly have a better shot at getting some sweet teachers (I recall being in a magnet school in StL where the kids were far ahead of the teachers in their subjects, not sure how that happened).

I hate the Japanese model - I'd blame the US occupation policy of trying to minimize potential aggressive behavior and dangerous outside-the-box thinking.  One study showed that a majority of 1st graders asked answered they wanted to be a salaryman when they grew up (a salaried company man).  They didn't want to be a fireman or policeman b/c it was too dangerous nor doctors and engineers b/c it looked too difficult.  Beating no risk into kids that young. Shudder. 

Pete: the testing has gotten absurd (preschool entrance exams, b/c a preschool could dictate which elementary school a child might get into; with a murder case of a mother who killed her friend's kid who got into a school her's didn't).  College admissions is based on 1 exam at that school and the score can limit your options for a major.  Overall it's very restrictive.  Very sad to see the country that produced Sony/Toyota/Honda/Fujitsu/Mitsubishi has virtually eliminated opportunities for thinkers to grow.  The desperate firms/government smart enough to realize the problem have turned to foreign educated expats to turn things around (albeit slowly).  The current cabinet and parliament has a few that are stirring the pot.

Oct 23, 13 12:00 pm  · 
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