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First potential (tiny) commission but lost at cost estimation

jackie jormp jomp

Hi all,

i was fortunate enough to have a family friend ask me to design a little cabin for her, with the understanding that this would be my first independent project. We agree to not set anything in stone yet until I feel confident enough to execute it. I've been trying to lay the groundwork for this project like I would at work, but I realize that I don't have access to the kind of resources I would have through my office. Additionally, having only 3 years of post-graduation experience, I don't yet have the kind of relationship with contractors where I feel comfortable to ask them for tips on the side. Since the cabin will be under 300sf I don't think hiring a proper cost estimator would be justified. So is there anyway (or reasonably priced resources/assistance) that someone like me can obtain to help prepare a proper and reliable cost estimation for this friend? Or should I just drop it and politely say no and thank her for the opportunity?

im in the process of taking my ARE's with hopes of practicing on my own hopefully in nearish future so this would be of interest to me regardless, so I'm curious how everybody pulled together resources for his/her first commission...any advice / first-hand experience would be much appreciated...thanks all!

 
Dec 27, 14 10:43 am
go do it

jackie,

This is a very small project of course. The material take off will be pretty simple, hell you can just count the studs for the walls, (if that is the construction), so you can do the take off yourself and call around to get prices from suppliers. Just to double check your subs.

I would suggest  checking the local Homebuilders Association website to get some seasoned contractors.

Good luck    

Dec 27, 14 11:30 am  · 
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Medusa

For a project that small, I would call up local contractors to get a feel for price-per-square footage figures, given a specific standard of fit and finish.  That will also put your name out there with local builders and help build your network.  By doing this, you'll also start to get a feel for which builders are good and which ones you should avoid.

In addition to this, I would get a copy of the latest RS Means book (probably available at your local library if you don't want to spend the $200) and run your own figures as a baseline.

Dec 28, 14 12:37 pm  · 
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TIQM

Why not work up a schematic design, and then give the schematics to a few local contractors, and ask them to help you work up a budget for it?  If they are interested in getting those job to ultimately build it, many GCs are willing to put together an estimate of cost on a residential project.

Dec 28, 14 1:38 pm  · 
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curtkram

is it that easy to find GC's that want to do 300sf cabins?

is this like a hunting cabin out in the sticks?  will there be plumbing and electrical work?

Dec 28, 14 1:40 pm  · 
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It's difficult to estimate w/o experience. It's impossible to estimate without a plan including basic specs. You can make a guess based on square footage and local prices but it will not apply well to such a small job. But between that and a stipulated budget you can determine basic feasibility before you get in too deep.

The typical architect's strategy is to get a retainer to explore feasibility, then underestimate the project, design and bill through CDs,  then send it out to bid and blame the contractors when it blows up.

Dec 28, 14 2:19 pm  · 
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null pointer

Miles is on point.

Reading this makes me feel somewhat satisfied with the project exposure I've gotten at work. Sitting five feet away from a partner and listening in on all of his phone conversations has been really informative.

Anyways, back on topic: Set a feasibility rate (be it fixed or hourly) based on your overhead. Open up excel, figure out how much time it would take for you to bill and survive with a target billable number of hours. This is a number you should be fully aware of. I take that number and compare it to what I've been billed out at the jobs I've held, and use those numbers as floors. I can negotiate down if I am hungry, but I'll feel used otherwise and that shows in my work (now thyself and all that shit). So now that you have those numbers: under no circumstances do you go under the overhead + profit rate. Ever.

Sit down, figure out those numbers. That's how you bill out.

Regarding the PSF costs: reach out to contractors. Be polite, be grateful. They will help you out if they want the project. At 300SF, unless you're building on a cliff, you'll quickly find that expanding the target square footage yields a much better construction cost. 300 SF is tiny. It might be too tiny for a few contractors too.

Dec 28, 14 5:44 pm  · 
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Carrera

Tiny houses typically cost between $200 to $400 per square foot on a square foot basis, that's far pricier than the average American home–and tiny homes don't include land. Take the Tumbleweed Tiny House Company, considered the Cadillac of the tiny house world as an example….if your client can afford that budget just get going and draw it….don’t need a GC or “contractor” to build it….find a carpenter who is out of work or go to your local trade school and see if they want to do it as a class project….my local high school is building one now. Be sure to check zoning before you start most townships have square footage minimums that exceed 300 S.F.

Dec 28, 14 6:03 pm  · 
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Saint in the City

Jackie, I'm going to kind of doubt that you're looking to present "Aunt Sally" with requests for up-front retainers and spreadsheets regarding your standard billing structure.  Um, are you?

Another route might be asking your relative if they might already have a contractor that they know, trust, and would like to work with...  Many people do.  If your relative can get a contractor on their own or with some assistance, then you can lean on his/her pricing expertise even at the most basic level of conceptual sketching.  

Unless you're too busy -- in which case I'd pass on the whole thing -- I'd start emailing sketches and comments back and forth with your relative.  Sounds like your first project -- treat it like an awesome opportunity -- it is.

Dec 28, 14 7:06 pm  · 
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snooker-doodle-dandy

I agree with Carrera:

First: Do you have a Site Plan prepared by a surveyor showing the property. It is always good to have topographic information.

Second:  Check Inland Wetland Issues

Third:  Check   Zoning Issues  They might have some limitations as to minimum size of residence.

Fourth:   Check State Building Requirements for one and two family dwellings, usually they are tied to one of many issues of the international building code for one and two family residences. The adopted regulation is also usually modified on a Local or State Basis.  Be sure your working with the right code, otherwise you can find you project going backwards real fast.

Fifth along with all previous:  Review Owner Program and see if it works within the confines of the 300 sf along with all the other limitations put on design by  code and zoning requirements.  Do a schematic design in plan for owner to sign off on.  Once done do some sections and elevations at a schematic level.  Yet keep in mind your going to have to have this built, so be realistic.  Bad Schematics can be the death of a project.

Once you have something figured out, run some numbers.  Based upon materials and construction.  The basics are the basics.  You know your going to have concrete footings and foundations.  You know your going to have steel in those footings  and foundations.  Figure out what your going to need.  Go to the internet pull off prices from Home Depot and Lowes.  Thinking your going to find 95 percent of what you need for material pricing at their sites.  Use the  retail cost, cause most builders are going to mark up to that number anyhow.  It is a safe bet.  Most likely your material numbers are going to be less.

Take a look at your site and  figure out how much dirt moving is involved.  Talk to an excavator and see what they think for a price.  Once the project is ready have them reprice it as most likely the cost will come down if they know they are pricing against another contractor.

Call a concrete redi-mix company and see what their delivery prices are to your site. As this is something your not getting from  Home Depot or Lowes.  Figure out  what  the labor is going to be involved.  You know you can kiss a day good bye , framing the footings  another framing the foundation walls.  Then there is the placing of cement  aka concrete.  Figure it is going to be spread over a couple of days and you not going to have one guy out there doing it.  If your doing a  concrete floor  do the same thing.

The rest is walking thru the project step by step and   ask yourself how long a task is going to take and who is going to be doing it.  Once you have all the hours figured out toss some numbers at it.  You know full well and electrical contractor is not going to be working for minimum wage.  Think of all of your contractors in the same way.  It isn't that hard to put a number to  the labor involved.   

This method should get you to a budget number.  Be sure to tell your client  this is not a solid number as you have no control over variation in material cost and labor cost which are driven by many  economic factors way out side of your  field as an architect.

Now how much can a building cost.....well it all depends upon  materials and level of detail.  It is easy to have those numbers double and even triple on a square foot cost basis, depending upon what the owner is looking for.    You should have a good handle on what materials your client is seeing in this 300 sf house before you start pricing it.  You can put down  a new hardwood floor for about a third of the cost of an  antique wood, new floor.  Same goes for  counter tops,  tile flooring, bath room fixtures, lighting fixtures...ect.

Dec 28, 14 7:11 pm  · 
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go do it

The typical architect's strategy is to get a retainer to explore feasibility, then underestimate the project, design and bill through CDs,  then send it out to bid and blame the contractors when it blows up.

Miles is right, but this practice is wrong and has to be unethical in relation to some of the guidelines you all are taught in school.  Are not you guys suppose to take a Hippocratic oath or something?

Don't do this. It takes us contractors time and money to put together a bid. 

When the price comes in to high all that  the contractors will have is wasted money and the architect has a check to cash.

 

Not cool play fair.

Dec 28, 14 8:41 pm  · 
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null pointer

Definite disagreement with Go Do It.

Every second you spend on a project should be billed out to someone. Clients should consider themselves lucky that we, architects, don't bill for accrued knowledge. Anyways... contractors don't spend 60 hours a week in studio for 3 to 5 years just to spend 3 years being someone's minion just to be able to practice. They don't carry student huge debt. They don't have to pass 7 annoying exams just to be called "contractor". All of these things aren't free and that's why the rule set is and should be  different from us.

You get higher risk and higher reward, we get a steady (or steadier) paycheck.

Dec 28, 14 8:50 pm  · 
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Miles is right, but this practice is wrong and has to be unethical in relation to some of the guidelines you all are taught in school.  Are not you guys suppose to take a Hippocratic oath or something?

They teach ethics in architecture school?

All you've got is your reputation. It's hard to go wrong when you do the right thing for your clients. You should get paid for your work, but it should be in proportion to your capability. This is a great opportunity to learn and your fee should be your last concern. You should be grateful for the opportunity and cognizant of the risk the client is taking by offering you the project.

What's really sad is how a 3-year post grad is so absolutely clueless. Not meant as a dis to the OP - but WTF is architecture school for?

Dec 28, 14 9:13 pm  · 
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that is what ARE and IDP are about, no?  School is used to train a person to think about problem solving and to introduce them to some of the problems that might need solving in their future career. It wouldn't hurt to have more pro practice though. A lot more.

After three years I didn't know anything about contracts either. I was too stupid to ask, in hindsight. I thought architecture practice was about details and design still. 

anyway, i assumed Miles' comment was tongue in cheek about the blaming the builder thing. No client of ours would ever buy that line, so I wouldn't recommend it.

if you can find a builder to help out with costing for such a small project sounds like the best advice possible.  The minimum size thing is also big in America i hear. Thank goodness we have almost none of that red-lining bullshit here in Japan. Talk about an ethical quandary.

Dec 28, 14 10:21 pm  · 
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jackie jormp jomp

Thanks everyone, this thread has been extremely helpful and illuminating (snooker doodle, your breakdown is much appreciated) there will indeed be very basic electrical and plumbing work, no open stove, out in the woods.

i do feel I have quite a bit to catch up on with non design/detailing related work, the majority or my work experience has been only concerned with conceptual design all the way up to DD sets so it's been hard gaining exposure to the business side of things. Working at a big international office with a majority of speculative projects in China doesn't help either. Hopefully this project will help me get a more comprehensive experience of executing a project! Thanks again .

Dec 29, 14 8:42 am  · 
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Volunteer

Municipal water and sewage hook-ups or not? Costs to bring electrical services to house? What sources of heat, air conditioning?

Dec 29, 14 10:24 am  · 
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go do it

Well I guess that 10 or 15 years of hard work out in the field to learn a trade is not worthy of consideration in the eyes of some.

Dec 29, 14 11:03 am  · 
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null pointer

Those 10 to 15 years are not a requirement. I was in line to take over a construction company in hometown. What were my qualifications at the time? A high school degree. You say: how? Just like 60-75% of the contractors I know: My grandfather owned the business.

Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying the economics of both professions are very different.

Dec 29, 14 11:29 am  · 
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Volunteer

Yes, the real education of a good contractor as well as his remuneration is far superior to that of an architect.

Dec 29, 14 11:43 am  · 
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curtkram

so, you're saying success shouldn't be 'earned' through working hard and putting in an effort so much as handed to people through the hard work of previous generations?

Dec 29, 14 11:43 am  · 
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null pointer

Not what I am saying. That's a false dichotomy. Keep your tiny blue pitchfork in its box.

Dec 29, 14 11:50 am  · 
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curtkram

That's a false dichotomy

is there a more true dichotomy to explain the relationship?

why is my pitchfork blue?

Dec 29, 14 12:16 pm  · 
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null pointer

Reference to American partisan stereotypes/partisan thinking.

 

The concept of dynasties (and ideally people's freedom to pass on their wealth onto their children, in whatever manner they may seem fitting) does not contradict the notion that hard work should reap rewards. Seeing those two things as somehow being opposites is a product of how American politicians have brainwashed (American) liberals into hating American conservatives. Just like American conservatives have been brainwashed into thinking that social safety nets are can't exist within meritocracies.

Dec 29, 14 1:08 pm  · 
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curtkram

oh come on now, this isn't some partisan split.

inheritance is not a replacement for competence.  it is not a replacement for experience either, nor is it a replacement for education.  if you grandfather spent 10 or 15 years teaching you how to be a better contractor, then that experience would be valuable towards being able to actually do the work that a contractor does.  having the chance to be able to learn a useful trade from someone experienced like that is great, if you spent your time listening to your grandfather and learning from him.  what he could teach you will always be far more valuable that having him hand you a business.

inheriting a business does not make you qualified to act as a contractor.  i'm not saying you can't reap the rewards of owning a business if you have a business handed to you.  obviously you can, but if you actually have to perform the tasks associated with that business, you'll need to have the education and experience to go with it.

Dec 29, 14 1:46 pm  · 
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null pointer

Hey, you're right.

Dec 29, 14 1:48 pm  · 
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Before you start drawing anything, every architect or building designers should have thoroughly reviewed all zoning, covenants, conditions and restrictions on the siteincluding all easement and such.

That is the first thing you do after getting a project description, scope, etc. determined. You should do this before you sign a contract to design. It is part of feasibility study of the project.

Dec 29, 14 2:09 pm  · 
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Some have said... don't take close friends and family/relatives as clients. They almost never pay because of the prevalent cultural 'law' that you never charge close friends and family/relatives. It isn't a legal law but a cultural one in American culture and not necessarily limited to America.

Dec 29, 14 2:13 pm  · 
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Saint in the City

If the relative could read this thread, they'd likely want to forget the whole thing.

It's a 300 SF cabin in the woods for a family member.   Feasibility studies and contracts?  How about defining procedures for reviewing pay apps?  Lawyer up, Uncle Bob!

Dec 30, 14 3:54 pm  · 
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curtkram

a feasibility study wouldn't be a bad idea at all.  stopping it once they find out the septic tank for the toilet costs way more than their budget for the entire project would save everyone a lot of time and trouble.

Dec 30, 14 4:19 pm  · 
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Saint in the City

^ I defer to your wisdom.  Carry on.

Dec 30, 14 7:09 pm  · 
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