I know the original source says what it says, but you should be wise enough... it's that complex Europe.. ;)
and anyway, nothing new... Oriol Bohigas (83), the '92 Olympic Village masterplanner, is behind this -nowadays through his boring, unsufferable wife, Beth Galí-.. he has been trying to stop the Sagrada Familia works since the 1950s!... it's all about making some noise and not much else -I would never call "intellectuals" some of the people who attended last wednesday debate at the FAD headquarters in BCN, at least not "architectural intellectuals"-, but who cares anyway? Japanese love it, finished or unfinished, with new additions or as Gaudí left it -a surrealist architectural extravaganza-, and Barcelona's city hall needs them tourist's money.
I'm sorry to disagree, last time I checked Catalonia was in Spain. It doesn't require a complex mind to realize that. As long as we don't have an addendum with all the national affiliation (in sentimental terms) of the signers, the information is correct.
About the content of the information, there's really a big difference between Gaudi's part and the rest. But at the end, that's how cathedrals are, a mixture of the work of many along generations. Like Saint Peter.
you are wrong in both political and architectural terms, mr.
political)
you better check out again, because as the Statute of Catalonia from 2006 says (democratically approved by Catalan people, and legally approved by the Catalan national government and even by the Spanish state central government) Catalonia is a nation in the Spanish state, not inside Spain, wether you like it or not (which I guess you don't).
And that's just really political bureaucracy, reality in the streets -which is what really matters- actually confirms that. You didn't check out the Catalan people -me, for example- well enough either.
architectural)
If you need to know who Bohigas is and what he thinks about Catalan identity, you're just showing your ignorance once again. Check out who is Bohigas and what are his "sentiments" in relation to national identities. And you could also check out who Gaudí was, a fiercely Catalanist and independentist -like Bohigas and so many other Catalan architects, like the Modernist masters, Domènech i Montaner and Puig i Cadafalch-, that type of person some ignorant Spaniards call, euphemistically or simply by inherent francoism, "radical separatists".
and the SF is not a cathedral. there's already a 15th ct cathedral in BCN, and the bishopry only holds a seat -a cathedral- per archdiocese.
the SF is an "expiatory temple", at least that's how the client/promoter -the church- calls it.
But you're just calling it wrong. Exactly like Catalonia.
So, yes, you need to check out so many things...
medit, my apologies. here is the original news source from 'times' in which refence to "spanish intellectuals" was made. i switched the source to 'artinfo' afterwards because i liked their picture with construction cranes better.
thanks for your valued information.
yes, I have read the original Times piece... the whole thing is promoted by Catalan architects from Barcelona, but the Times was quoting Valencian-born art curator Manuel Borja, who is now working in a Madrid's art museum, hence the "Spanish intellectuals" misleading line... or just because the brit who wrote that doesn't know much about this story.
the original manifesto against continuing works on the SF -or repairing Gaudí's Güell Crypt- came out some months ago, but this last wednesday the SF debate was again in the general news media, because they did a sort of conference with Bohigas and his acollytes... these people are a bit tiresome really, they are mostly lefties and ex-hippies from the 60s and 70s but they usually act like ultra-conservatives (except for Bohigas himself, whose quotes translated in English, and read by people who doesn't know his sense of humor or his provocative character, lose all its real meaning and double entendre)...
I'm all to keep Gaudí's legacy as "architecturally pure" as it can be, but I'm no Gaudinian fundamentalist and we're talking about architecture here, not sculpture, and if a building is unfinished or needs some maintenance works, then it must be fixed or completed...
what sense does it make to have an enormous temple in the middle of Barcelona if it doesn't function for what Gaudí planned it for?, or at least rehabilitated for another function? .. having a gargantuan ruin for the mere tourists pleasure may be economically profitable but it's not that useful for the city and its citizens.
and sorry for being so "touchy" with this Catalan vs. Spanish thing, but if it's wrong then I have to say it... Spanish phony propaganda gets on my nerves
Catalonia is 'in but not inside' Spain? hmm, yeah, that seems pretty clear to me ... maybe that loses it's double entendre when translated to English, too? ;D
I think it's absurd, yet kinda cool, that they're building it out of reinforced concrete - when the entire original point was the novelty of getting those plastic effects out of stone. I'm either outraged or amused by that.
In any case, we should definitely keep it out of Norman Foster's hands! That infidel has none of the necessary cultural sensitivity!
no, Catalonia is in the Spanish state -which is a state, obviously- but not inside Spain -which is a nation-
the Spanish state is a plurinational state -as the Spanish Constitution says so-, composed of Spain, Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia.
Exactly the opposite of the United States: one nation divided in different states.
And that's why you don't have any significative separatist movements. Unlike the Spanish state, or the United Kingdom (which also is divided in different nations like England, Scotland..). Or France. Or Belgium.
oh, and one more thing, Gaudí himself used concrete for the Sagrada Familia from 1918 until his death in 1926 -his patron, Eusebi Güell, built and owned the first Portland cement factory of Catalonia from 1908 to 1917-. The top of the first four pinacles (those that you can see in Orhan's artinfo link above) were made in the first 1920s with concrete in situ. If Gaudí didn't use concrete before it was mainly because there was not enough money.
And the "whole point" of that building has nothing to do with stone or any other material but with geometry and religion alone -or how to link both of them-.
and yes! bring in Norman and let's turn this religious monster into some architectural history museum or a soccer temple -which is what really barcelonians are passionate about-
Medit, you are labelling "CATALAN intellectuals" people who may not necessarily consider their cultural identify to be first and foremost Catalan, while it is not incorrect (technically speaking) to consider them "Spanish" since that's the "nationality" of their passport. You are confusing nationality with cultural identity, which is a personal choice, and little is more ojectionable than when someone makes such a choice on someone else's behalf.
rafter,
I know all these people, in fact, most of them -90%- are constantly on the news media, the architectural magazines, etc... Believe me, if I say they wouldn't be pleased to be called "spanish" is because I know their opinions on politics and national indentities. In fact, they are "public" people, their opinions on these things are in the press archives. You only need to check them out.
Also, I think it is you who is wrong about disconnecting nationalities with cultural identities because they are exactly the same.
You're wrong in assuming that political states -instead of cultural communities- are those who define "national identities". There wouldn't be no territorial conflicts if things were so easy to define. These conflicts exist precisely because some states -like the Spanish state- comprise different nationalities. The mere existence of the conflict validates my point (states whose borders coincide with only one national group obviously don't present such conflicts).
The rest is just bureaucracy and what you call "technicisms", which has nothing to do with people, that is: culture, that is: national cultures, therefore: national identities.
It is pretty easy to understand, the problem is that some people just don't want to accept it (in Spain for example). But that's another story.
My only point is that, in an international context such as Archinect, it is not incorrect to describe Catalans as being "Spanish" since, as you say, Catalonia is a nation within the Spanish state. I can see your point only from a local perspective: if Galí et al were referred to as "Espanyols" in a Catalan news medium, then I would certainly see cause for concern! Context is everything. In an international context such as this one it makes no sense to split hairs over Catalan versus Spanish identity.
rafter,
Your argument doesn't make sense at all. Identities are an objective definition, validated by those who bear it -in this case, the intellectuals who signed that manifesto or the ones who attended the FAD debate last week-. It's completely absurd to change the definition just because I'm in Archinect or somewhere else. In fact, this is exactly the point where Spanish propaganda loses all its credibility.
"Context is everything" is an axiom, which apart of being false and that can easily be demonstrated in various areas -like architecture itself-, negates the evolution of cultures and their relation with foreign cultures.
Do we Catalans have to "hide" our own national identity just because we are in a north-american architecture website? that would be understandable in a fascist dictatorship, but it's completely absurd and illogical in a democracy.
THem intellectuals -like myself- have the right, in Catalonia and elsewhere, to be called what we are: Catalans not Spanish. Independently if we are in a little bar by the Mediterranean having a beer, or if we are speaking in an "international" context, as you say, like, say, Pau Casals, the greatest cellist ever, addressing a message in the United Nations Headquarteres in New York (you can't be in a more international context than that, can you?): http://www.paucasals.org/en/-PAU-CASALS-United-Nations-speech/ (ah, and that was 1971, with Franco still alive... and still some people deny us the right of being called Catalans? tsk, tsk...)
Medit, nobody here is denying anyone the right to call themselves as they wish. That is precisely the point I make in my first comment. I never once denied anyone's Catalan identity, whereas you said they are NOT Spanish. It is you who is denying fellow Catalans their right to identify themselves as BOTH Catalan AND Spanish if they wish to do so. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is a personal choice which one to exclude, if any. You have no right to do that on behalf of others.
rafter,
one more time, go check the interviews with these people and you'll have the answers to your confusion on what these people are or, more precisely, what their opinions on these things are.. (the link I gave above on Bohigas is full of interviews that will help you to understand what I'm saying a little bit better). THe same for Galí, the same for Perejaume, the same for Juanjo Lahuerta, the same for Portabella (though this guy is a little bit more opaque in this sense), etc..
In fact, I think you don't even know who most of these people are at all, do you? and less what his opinions on politics and national identites are.
though, by this time it's seems obvious to me that you understand what I'm saying but you're, consciously, trying to deny it. Which invalidates your point in a purely logical discussion. In other words: you have a pro-spaniard prejudice -a pre-fixed assumption, quasi-axiomatic, that cannot be discussed in logical terms-, which starts by confusing Catalans with Spanish, because yes, on a serious analysis, the two are mutually exclusive (you're wrong one more time).
[I don't think this conversation makes sense anymore in this thread since it has nothing to do with architecture nor the Sagrada Familia, so since it is evident that you either don't comprehend what I'm saying or you do but are consciously denying it, I'm really wasting my time... so I'll leave it here, anytime you want to discuss on Catalan architecture I'll be back]
16 Comments
damn Orhan... CATALAN intellectuals, not spanish!
I know the original source says what it says, but you should be wise enough... it's that complex Europe.. ;)
and anyway, nothing new... Oriol Bohigas (83), the '92 Olympic Village masterplanner, is behind this -nowadays through his boring, unsufferable wife, Beth Galí-.. he has been trying to stop the Sagrada Familia works since the 1950s!... it's all about making some noise and not much else -I would never call "intellectuals" some of the people who attended last wednesday debate at the FAD headquarters in BCN, at least not "architectural intellectuals"-, but who cares anyway? Japanese love it, finished or unfinished, with new additions or as Gaudí left it -a surrealist architectural extravaganza-, and Barcelona's city hall needs them tourist's money.
I'm sorry to disagree, last time I checked Catalonia was in Spain. It doesn't require a complex mind to realize that. As long as we don't have an addendum with all the national affiliation (in sentimental terms) of the signers, the information is correct.
About the content of the information, there's really a big difference between Gaudi's part and the rest. But at the end, that's how cathedrals are, a mixture of the work of many along generations. Like Saint Peter.
you are wrong in both political and architectural terms, mr.
political)
you better check out again, because as the Statute of Catalonia from 2006 says (democratically approved by Catalan people, and legally approved by the Catalan national government and even by the Spanish state central government) Catalonia is a nation in the Spanish state, not inside Spain, wether you like it or not (which I guess you don't).
And that's just really political bureaucracy, reality in the streets -which is what really matters- actually confirms that. You didn't check out the Catalan people -me, for example- well enough either.
architectural)
If you need to know who Bohigas is and what he thinks about Catalan identity, you're just showing your ignorance once again.
Check out who is Bohigas and what are his "sentiments" in relation to national identities. And you could also check out who Gaudí was, a fiercely Catalanist and independentist -like Bohigas and so many other Catalan architects, like the Modernist masters, Domènech i Montaner and Puig i Cadafalch-, that type of person some ignorant Spaniards call, euphemistically or simply by inherent francoism, "radical separatists".
and the SF is not a cathedral. there's already a 15th ct cathedral in BCN, and the bishopry only holds a seat -a cathedral- per archdiocese.
the SF is an "expiatory temple", at least that's how the client/promoter -the church- calls it.
But you're just calling it wrong. Exactly like Catalonia.
So, yes, you need to check out so many things...
medit, my apologies. here is the original news source from 'times' in which refence to "spanish intellectuals" was made. i switched the source to 'artinfo' afterwards because i liked their picture with construction cranes better.
thanks for your valued information.
yes, I have read the original Times piece... the whole thing is promoted by Catalan architects from Barcelona, but the Times was quoting Valencian-born art curator Manuel Borja, who is now working in a Madrid's art museum, hence the "Spanish intellectuals" misleading line... or just because the brit who wrote that doesn't know much about this story.
the original manifesto against continuing works on the SF -or repairing Gaudí's Güell Crypt- came out some months ago, but this last wednesday the SF debate was again in the general news media, because they did a sort of conference with Bohigas and his acollytes... these people are a bit tiresome really, they are mostly lefties and ex-hippies from the 60s and 70s but they usually act like ultra-conservatives (except for Bohigas himself, whose quotes translated in English, and read by people who doesn't know his sense of humor or his provocative character, lose all its real meaning and double entendre)...
I'm all to keep Gaudí's legacy as "architecturally pure" as it can be, but I'm no Gaudinian fundamentalist and we're talking about architecture here, not sculpture, and if a building is unfinished or needs some maintenance works, then it must be fixed or completed...
what sense does it make to have an enormous temple in the middle of Barcelona if it doesn't function for what Gaudí planned it for?, or at least rehabilitated for another function? .. having a gargantuan ruin for the mere tourists pleasure may be economically profitable but it's not that useful for the city and its citizens.
and sorry for being so "touchy" with this Catalan vs. Spanish thing, but if it's wrong then I have to say it... Spanish phony propaganda gets on my nerves
Catalonia is 'in but not inside' Spain? hmm, yeah, that seems pretty clear to me ... maybe that loses it's double entendre when translated to English, too? ;D
I think it's absurd, yet kinda cool, that they're building it out of reinforced concrete - when the entire original point was the novelty of getting those plastic effects out of stone. I'm either outraged or amused by that.
In any case, we should definitely keep it out of Norman Foster's hands! That infidel has none of the necessary cultural sensitivity!
no, Catalonia is in the Spanish state -which is a state, obviously- but not inside Spain -which is a nation-
the Spanish state is a plurinational state -as the Spanish Constitution says so-, composed of Spain, Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia.
Exactly the opposite of the United States: one nation divided in different states.
And that's why you don't have any significative separatist movements. Unlike the Spanish state, or the United Kingdom (which also is divided in different nations like England, Scotland..). Or France. Or Belgium.
Got it?
oh, and one more thing, Gaudí himself used concrete for the Sagrada Familia from 1918 until his death in 1926 -his patron, Eusebi Güell, built and owned the first Portland cement factory of Catalonia from 1908 to 1917-. The top of the first four pinacles (those that you can see in Orhan's artinfo link above) were made in the first 1920s with concrete in situ. If Gaudí didn't use concrete before it was mainly because there was not enough money.
And the "whole point" of that building has nothing to do with stone or any other material but with geometry and religion alone -or how to link both of them-.
There's a PhD Thesis about the use of concrete in this building:
http://www.geocities.com/medit1976c4/sagrada3.htm
and yes! bring in Norman and let's turn this religious monster into some architectural history museum or a soccer temple -which is what really barcelonians are passionate about-
Medit, you are labelling "CATALAN intellectuals" people who may not necessarily consider their cultural identify to be first and foremost Catalan, while it is not incorrect (technically speaking) to consider them "Spanish" since that's the "nationality" of their passport. You are confusing nationality with cultural identity, which is a personal choice, and little is more ojectionable than when someone makes such a choice on someone else's behalf.
rafter,
I know all these people, in fact, most of them -90%- are constantly on the news media, the architectural magazines, etc... Believe me, if I say they wouldn't be pleased to be called "spanish" is because I know their opinions on politics and national indentities. In fact, they are "public" people, their opinions on these things are in the press archives. You only need to check them out.
Also, I think it is you who is wrong about disconnecting nationalities with cultural identities because they are exactly the same.
You're wrong in assuming that political states -instead of cultural communities- are those who define "national identities". There wouldn't be no territorial conflicts if things were so easy to define. These conflicts exist precisely because some states -like the Spanish state- comprise different nationalities. The mere existence of the conflict validates my point (states whose borders coincide with only one national group obviously don't present such conflicts).
The rest is just bureaucracy and what you call "technicisms", which has nothing to do with people, that is: culture, that is: national cultures, therefore: national identities.
It is pretty easy to understand, the problem is that some people just don't want to accept it (in Spain for example). But that's another story.
My only point is that, in an international context such as Archinect, it is not incorrect to describe Catalans as being "Spanish" since, as you say, Catalonia is a nation within the Spanish state. I can see your point only from a local perspective: if Galí et al were referred to as "Espanyols" in a Catalan news medium, then I would certainly see cause for concern! Context is everything. In an international context such as this one it makes no sense to split hairs over Catalan versus Spanish identity.
rafter,
Your argument doesn't make sense at all. Identities are an objective definition, validated by those who bear it -in this case, the intellectuals who signed that manifesto or the ones who attended the FAD debate last week-. It's completely absurd to change the definition just because I'm in Archinect or somewhere else. In fact, this is exactly the point where Spanish propaganda loses all its credibility.
"Context is everything" is an axiom, which apart of being false and that can easily be demonstrated in various areas -like architecture itself-, negates the evolution of cultures and their relation with foreign cultures.
Do we Catalans have to "hide" our own national identity just because we are in a north-american architecture website? that would be understandable in a fascist dictatorship, but it's completely absurd and illogical in a democracy.
THem intellectuals -like myself- have the right, in Catalonia and elsewhere, to be called what we are: Catalans not Spanish. Independently if we are in a little bar by the Mediterranean having a beer, or if we are speaking in an "international" context, as you say, like, say, Pau Casals, the greatest cellist ever, addressing a message in the United Nations Headquarteres in New York (you can't be in a more international context than that, can you?):
http://www.paucasals.org/en/-PAU-CASALS-United-Nations-speech/ (ah, and that was 1971, with Franco still alive... and still some people deny us the right of being called Catalans? tsk, tsk...)
Medit, nobody here is denying anyone the right to call themselves as they wish. That is precisely the point I make in my first comment. I never once denied anyone's Catalan identity, whereas you said they are NOT Spanish. It is you who is denying fellow Catalans their right to identify themselves as BOTH Catalan AND Spanish if they wish to do so. The two are not mutually exclusive. It is a personal choice which one to exclude, if any. You have no right to do that on behalf of others.
rafter,
one more time, go check the interviews with these people and you'll have the answers to your confusion on what these people are or, more precisely, what their opinions on these things are.. (the link I gave above on Bohigas is full of interviews that will help you to understand what I'm saying a little bit better). THe same for Galí, the same for Perejaume, the same for Juanjo Lahuerta, the same for Portabella (though this guy is a little bit more opaque in this sense), etc..
In fact, I think you don't even know who most of these people are at all, do you? and less what his opinions on politics and national identites are.
though, by this time it's seems obvious to me that you understand what I'm saying but you're, consciously, trying to deny it. Which invalidates your point in a purely logical discussion. In other words: you have a pro-spaniard prejudice -a pre-fixed assumption, quasi-axiomatic, that cannot be discussed in logical terms-, which starts by confusing Catalans with Spanish, because yes, on a serious analysis, the two are mutually exclusive (you're wrong one more time).
[I don't think this conversation makes sense anymore in this thread since it has nothing to do with architecture nor the Sagrada Familia, so since it is evident that you either don't comprehend what I'm saying or you do but are consciously denying it, I'm really wasting my time... so I'll leave it here, anytime you want to discuss on Catalan architecture I'll be back]
Medit, you are right: we have strayed from the topic.
Just for the record, here is the link to the petition in Catalan :-)
www.fadweb.org/manifestgaudienalertaroja
A Spanish language option ;-) is available by clicking "es" in the upper left-hand corner, but alas, there's no English language option :-(
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.