The park’s centerpiece features three decks of exhibits explaining Answers in Genesis’ views of the biblical flood account..[It] also features a two-story restaurant, aerial zipline cables and the Ararat Ridge Zoo...
“...in a world that we see becoming very secularized before our eyes, it’s really time for Christians to do something of this size, of this quality, that competes with the Disneys and the Universals to get a message to the world.”
— The Charlotte Observer
This might be worth a pitstop for anyone planning a U.S. summer road trip. Envisioned by the Creationist apologetics ministry Answers in Genesis, a replica of Noah's Ark — measuring 510 feet long, 85 feet wide and 51 feet high — opened last week as the centerpiece of the Ark Encounter theme park in Williamstown, Kentucky. As it goes, the theme park [which apparently has a total construction cost of more than $150 million] is “more than just entertainment” and aims to promote the ministry's views on evolution. As it goes, criticism ensues.
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103 Comments
Thanks for the response, Non-Sequitor, that didn't include insults or inane references to the sun god. Give me some examples of large institutions that have provided a societal moral compass to the vast majority of Americans regardless of race, income, or social status that have replaced the waning influence of organized religion.
Moral compass? I think you're staking the deck in your favour by using language reserved primarily for religious bodies. Why the need for top-down direction? Pretty sure that's a disastrous idea. Plenty of places offer social networks without requiring that all members subscribe to a particular brand of superstitions. No need to bow to a non-existant sky-daddy and be made to feel guilty... or whatever.
If you're interpretation of "church" is the moot view that it's a place to hang out and compare clothing (to quote George Carlin), then why bother with all the myths and restrictions on personal liberties? Why not remove the superstitions and cultured ignorance through bible teachings? Rhetorical obviously because it's not the social binding that brings the masses into churches, it's the false sense of security, ie. a crutch that adds the illusion of structure and purpose to the random noise and scariness of reality.
btw, Donna's sun god is as valid and as true of a religion as the ones "practiced" in the american mega-churches and if anyone teaches children creationism as fact, it is a form of abuse.
You don't have to play the game, that's fine, but I personally believe that the mass sense of disconnection we feel as a society despite the advent of all sorts of tools to better connect us has a direct connection to a society that shares a set of common values, if differing beliefs. If you were to play the game, I think you could argue the family and school hold the potential to provide a shared set of values, but they have also been woefully eroded.
" I think you could argue the family and school hold the potential to provide a shared set of values, but they have also been woefully eroded."
These are not eroded (good word, I should use it more often) in my milieu.
instead of looking to the church as a binding institution, maybe we should look towards universities or some other institution that doesn't outright reject intelligent discourse.
we can't look to the christian church for "moral" guidance until they allow gay marriage, allow birth control to be a personal decision, allow women to hold the same position of authority as men, actively prosecute those who hurt children, etc.
curtkram, I would like to see public elementary schools become that binding institution, at a neighborhood level. I imagine public elementary schools as places that offer all kinds of social network access: health care, ESL classes, healthy food prep classes, babysitting, elderly support, transit access, free counseling....the list goes on. My current public elementary school operates in that way in a limited sense, and it connects our physical neighborhood as a strong community. This would require a LOT of public financial support, but why wouldn't we want to pay well the people who act as glue in our community?
Ideally this would parallel with the closing of private elementary schools - in other words, compulsory public school attendance by ALL children - but I know that's a hard sell *at this point* in our nation's story.
instead of looking to the church as a binding institution, maybe we should look towards universities or some other institution that doesn't outright reject intelligent discourse.
That's an uninformed opinion of most organized religion.
we can't look to the christian church for "moral" guidance until they allow gay marriage, allow birth control to be a personal decision, allow women to hold the same position of authority as men, actively prosecute those who hurt children, etc.
Methodism for one is deep into the process of working through the church's position on these topics. There is a vast plurality of opinions on these issues within the church.
Church (God) will work for some; school (knowledge) for others; family hopefully for all, but there should be institutions that provide a common set of values that go beyond individual gratification of needs.
As an aside,
Ideally this would parallel with the closing of private elementary schools - in other words, compulsory public school attendance by ALL children - but I know that's a hard sell *at this point* in our nation's story.
Talk about top down approaches that would not have the least effect on creating change. You want to improve public education, let's talk about socio-economically diverse neighborhoods.
This is way off topic by now, but won do you have solid ideas for how to create socio-economically diverse neighborhoods that do NOT require a top-down approach? My school works as well as it does because the largest school district in the state made an enormous decision to try something new. Now they are trying to replicate it and seeing good success. But that only happened due to a huge policy decision made at very high levels.
I'm always perplexed when people reject the fact that we are related to apes...it's always been very obvious to me...even as a child I recognized the similarities in appearance...
But jla-x, sorry, but thinking you recognize a similarity in appearance is the same as saying you know the world is flat because that's what you see. It's not scientific. When DNA was discovered, that's when we could start to verify that we are related to apes and thus explain what we're seeing.
your 'common set of values' should include the ability to exercise sound judgement. people who teach 'creationism' as a valid avenue for scientific thought or study in order to maintain their power structure lack that sound judgment and are excluded from the group of institutions that can provide or teach those values.
perhaps your church is trying to reform itself in such a way that it can become a valid institution of moral relevancy. good for them. however, you still have all these competing organizations trying to establish what 'god's will' is. it's not a "common set of values" when you have different institutions competing to set those values.
Donna, I know that, but now that we know the genetic link is proven it's very obvious. Doesn't take much of a leap of imagination to see that we descended from apes...also, observation and hypothesis precedes scientific experimentation.
As for religion...My only concern with bashing dumb Cristian beliefs is that it's become socially acceptable, kinda like bashing white guys or making fun of Asians, while bashing dumb Muslim or Jewish beliefs is a liberal no no. That bogus. I think we should be able to openly ridicule all forms of stupidity like the idea in Judaism that eating cheeseburgers is a sin. That's fucking dumb. Cheeseburgers are delicious. I also support anyone's right to believe any stupid thing they want...just don't get mad when I laugh at you for thinking Jesus had a pet dinosaur named Rex...And sorry, but thinking 42 hot sexy virgins are waiting for you on the other side IS a major motive for these asshole suicide bombers. Someone needs to highlight the fact that those 42 virgins come with 42 mother in-laws...and some may be busted...cast some doubt into these assholes with a disclaimer...
won do you have solid ideas for how to create socio-economically diverse neighborhoods that do NOT require a top-down approach?
Absolutely, I think the rediscovery of the urban core provides incredible opportunities for diverse mixed-income neighborhoods (this is largely a market-based phenomenon, not a government-based one), but schools need to be included in the redevelopment conversation. How can public schools within these neighborhoods be inclusive of both existing residents and newcomers from vastly different backgrounds? It's an incredible challenge that is too frequently ignored by developers and school officials, but is often key to the success of the neighborhood. Parents are more frequently taking the lead on these conversations because they are the ones most affected...
Whew, we did get off-topic with that...
it's not a "common set of values" when you have different institutions competing to set those values.
I don't think a common set of values is as far off as you think they are. Christianity at its core is about love, faith, respect, dignity, grace, compassion, etc.; the same values that frame pretty much any civilized society. Gay marriage, BLM, etc. are all important issues that when viewed through a shared set of values makes for a much more productive conversation even if we disagree on solutions. I don't think we share that common set of values anymore because the institutions that uphold those values are as weak as I have seen them in my lifetime.
I hear you, jla-x. I'm just setting your comment out as an example of the kind of sloppy thinking that we can't trust, even if we habitually do. And yes, observation is first ("The sun moves across the sky!") followed by testing to see if the observation is correct.
Which is what curt and I are arguing about with won and The Intern. Answers In Genesis (the Ark people) doesn't represent all of mainstream Christianity, but they represent a certain adherence to religion that *is* worthy of ridicule. If someone told me they worship Apollo, I'd similarly ridicule them.
" I think we should be able to openly ridicule all forms of stupidity"
Jla-X, fucking (r)Amen!
I do not discriminate when it comes to stupid ideas. All forms of superstitions are equally dumb. I will not split hairs on simple difference like not operating a light switch on sunday to stoning your neighbour's daughter because she held another man's hand.
I mean, won, I agree with you, but the market-based solution only really comes about AFTER a top down decision, no? Zoning laws change, school boundaries and curricula change, etc. and those are all long slow processes that may initiate in demand *from* the market but can't be implemented without top-down involvement and acceptance.
As for the ark...only a child incapable of critical thinking would believe such nonsense. I would be willing to bet that most of the people who claim to believe this creationist fable are pretending in order to fit in with their peers. It's hard to imagine that they aren't running scenarios in their mind of the Tigers and polar bears eating the bunny rabbits and capybaras...until all that's left is the rotting carcasses of Noah with a grizzly bear gnawing away on his femur.
" I think we should be able to openly ridicule all forms of stupidity"
This is the first sign of the apocalypse.
I mean, won, I agree with you, but the market-based solution only really comes about AFTER a top down decision, no? Zoning laws change, school boundaries and curricula change, etc. and those are all long slow processes that may initiate in demand *from* the market but can't be implemented without top-down involvement and acceptance.
Not at all, I think you've been so indoctrinated by government being the cure all that you can't even see what a non-government solution would look like. No, I am talking about developers, school officials, teachers, and parents talking to each other to figure out a better way to run a school within a changing neighborhood. You don't need zoning officials or school boards for that; they just get in the way.
love, faith, respect, dignity, grace, compassion, etc
i don't see this with the evangelicals, religious right, westboro, and really most of the loudest people who claim to act on god's behalf. i think greed and selfishness is more prevalent among people who claim to be religious than with atheists. more power to you if you want religion to go back to teaching people to be decent to each other.
there's nothing wrong with a person not eating cheeseburgers because it's a sin, just as there is nothing wrong with a person believing abortion is a sin due to there religious beliefs. the problem is when people take that personal decision and force it on others. i disagree with the life-choices vegetarians make, but i'm not going to force them to eat meat just because i do.
won, ridiculing stupid ideas is not the sign of apocalypse. First of all, that's not even a thing, but more to the point, shunning away terrible ideas, which to be honest this category is not limited to religion even-though it holds a majority stake, is a sign of enlightenment.
When the ability to ridicule is considered a virtue, to me, if not the first sign of the apocalypse, then more accurately the decline of civil discourse. Again, we have lost a common sense of values. Obviously, we will agree to disagree.
curtkram, judging Christians based on the actions of westboro, or the "loudest people who claim to act on God's behalf" is just as ridiculous as judging all Muslims based on the actions of their extremists, and not conducive to a civilized society or discourse.
I think that for anyone caring to look into those religious people closest to you, you'll find that they are looking to continue teaching people to be decent to one another. I don't think that those you mentioned should necessarily be grouped in with the rest of Christianity. I wouldn't want to imply that all Christians should be perfect in their actions, but I think the groups you mentioned, while professing Christianity, probably have a lot of work to do in order to adhere to fundamental Christian principles.
+1 to your second paragraph.
jla-x mentioned above, "As for the ark...only a child incapable of critical thinking would believe such nonsense." I didn't want that to go unnoticed.
I think this is the important piece to a critical response to the ark replica. The group, Answers in Genesis, is making the claim that they are trying to portray that the ark is historical fact and true with regard to history and science. Therein lies the problem; their apologetic mission of explaining the ark and attempting to portray the biblical account of it as true scientifically relies on them ignoring scientific fact. As jla-x implies, any person capable of critical thought will easily see through the pseudo-scientific, apologetic bullshit and dismiss the claims the group is making.
If this was set up as a purely religious theme park without attempting the apologetic mission in the name of science, there probably wouldn't be so much attention on it with regard to it's educational value. That is beside the other critiques about tax incentives, etc.
For Donna's sake, I'd also make the same sort of critique if a group was trying to make a scientific claim that Apollo is driving his sun-wheeled chariot across the sky every day.
I grew up Catholic and know plenty of moderate cathliocs who do good things for community , believe in the basic lessons of the religion (which are mostly good like helping people in need, not killing, etc), and believe in evolution and gay marriage. The people attending this park are likely the westboro types...
Last comment then I'll drop it. Rather than some lame ass trip to Disney World, I'd much rather take my kids to this place. Not to teach them creationism or the Bible or anything else, but just because it's kinda cool. We'll probably stop by on our next road trip through Kentucky!
It's not cool, it's an insult to the progress humans have tried to maintain over the last centuries.
Elsa and Anna are far more insidious than a life-size replica of Noah's ark. As a dad, trust me. :)
So, won, you're talking about Libertarianism: privatized schools, completely. We're not even in the same room in terms of this discussion, because I'm talking about PUBLIC schools, completely, no other options. It's ok, we don't need to talk about schools any more.
Won, no they are not, but I see what you did there.
A more important question, is there a bar inside the ark? What beer would Noah have stored? Would he have shared it with the dinosaurs?
No, I was talking about public schools...
Everyday Intern, you hit the nail on the head: children are not critical thinkers. We, as parents and as a society, have to teach them how to be critical thinkers, as well as how to be moral, how to take care of their bodies, etc etc. Otherwise you end up with a society that's not a society. NONE of this comes naturally to human animals; we've agreed that this is a pretty good way to build a society that can function for the benefit of all.
re: Disregarding objective science to break down agreed-upon benefits to all, see also anti-vaxxers. <Covers head and runs away...>
Donna pffff... my son is already an excellent critical thinker. He's got his "you've got to be kidding me" look mastered. He knows when it's a tasty warm bottle of milk, or just my finger. He cuts through the bullshit with the unapologetic bluntness of Hitchens.
Also.. anti vax mention in a discussion of the backwardsness of religion? You're just asking for the filth to come out and play. 8-)
Which one of these Noah's tombs do you like the best?
We, as parents and as a society, have to teach them how to be critical thinkers, as well as how to be moral, how to take care of their bodies, etc etc. Otherwise you end up with a society that's not a society. NONE of this comes naturally to human animals; we've agreed that this is a pretty good way to build a society that can function for the benefit of all.
Agreed Donna. I'm curious though (you've made no statement to this, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) are you are trying to imply that religion plays no supportive role in those efforts?
quondam... From the article linked in the news post:
That timeline isn’t the only challenge the park has faced: In 2014, the theme park was awarded, then denied Kentucky tax incentives, worth an estimated $18 million over 10 years, because Answers in Genesis requires its employees to sign a statement of belief. In January, it won a lawsuit to have those incentives restored.
As for why religions are granted tax-exempt status ... it's so there is a separation of church and state, see Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York. Also applicable the power to tax is the power to destroy. In the case of religion, that power to tax (i.e. to destroy) would violate the first amendment.
They could have built a:
1. homeless shelter
2. a food bank
3. a medical and dental clinic
4. a battered women's shelter
5. a reading room
instead they decide on a silly theme park.
orhan brings up a good point (indirectly, perhaps intentionally?). do you think the nut jobs in kentucky are indoctrinating the kids with the fact that noah was a prophet of islam? that was pretty important part of his life. to leave that out would be a horrible bastardization of history as well as science.
Quondam....
http://www.latimes.com/la-oew-lynn-stanley23-2008sep23-story.html
Curt, Orhan... decent observations. I was not aware, although can't say I'm surprised, of the cross-cultural significance of the fictional character. After-all, everyone's story book is a copy of who ever came before them. Not sure what you mean about bastardizing history or science. Silly superstitions aside, there is still no evidence that the character of Noah ever existed.
Huh, Everyday Intern, I replied last night but the response isn't showing up today, I must have accidentally not submitted it.
I'm not AT ALL saying that religion can't or doesn't play a supportive role in creating cultural connection and community. From my own experience growing up as a critically-thinking Christian church (I'm baptised and confirmed Lutheran, and my confirmation classes in 4th grade were my introduction to philosophy) to the role church communities play in supporting members going through crises, religious communities can absolutely play a positive role.
I'll note that I'm currently not a member of a local church but in recent years I see Facebook - and my public school community - playing that role of banding together to help people in crisis, and the various churches my Facebook community are members of absolutely play a role in alerting everyone to a local need.
^ nor can it be determined that any of these characters (Jebs, Moe, Abe, etc) ever existed in the first place even without their X-men level mutant abilities.
Donna, I've noticed a few of my posts disappearing after hitting the "post" button. I blame the flacky Iphone app.
while there is no evidence that noah existed (except in the writings of the abrahamic religions handed down from generation to generation), there is no evidence to say he didn't exist. that's in part because you can't prove a negative.
people did exist long ago though, and there is no reason to assume someone didn't call one of those people 'noah.' there is evidence of boat construction dating back a long time ago too. i would give them the benefit of the doubt and say he existed. the problem is the verifiable parts. i could put predator and prey in a cage and see what happens. after the boat landed, i could put the baby rabbits and baby coyotes with their parents on flood ravaged land without the terrestrial biodiversity required to sustain life and see what happens. it's the verifiable parts that make the story ridiculous.
the title of 'prophet of islam' is a pretty big deal. they don't throw that around like the pope tosses out sainthoods or the queen gives knighthoods. he's not only in a group with Mohamed, but elijah and jesus and people who (if real) changed the world for generations to come. i just wouldn't leave that line off my resume.
learning christian mythology is just as important as learning classic mythology. it's presence in art and architecture and culture are just too deep to ignore. if you don't know why poe used the term 'bust of pallas' in his poem, i don't think you get the full picture. same with seeing a sculpture of posiedon in the vatican, or the story of the adoration of the magi, etc.
Clear evidence? doubt it could be considered "clear", but even if one could, without a doubt demonstrate a dude named John or Peter hung out in a group of dirty hippies 2000+ years ago, it still does not add value to the faith that unravelled hundreds of fairy tales.
The best case, as demonstrated in Hitchen's excellent work, for the actual existence of Jeebus, the bearded magic hobo, is an amalgamation of a dozen or so "prophets" (read: crazy fuckers like those who wear end-of-the-world signs in the city bus) spanning decades into one polished central character, invented centuries after his supposed death. Seems far more likely to be closer to the truth than the typical "he existed and was a pretty cool dude" most people force themselves to believe.
But more to the point, since we understand the human tendency to lean to superstition in the face of ignorance and keeping in mind that proving a negative is futile (point to Curt above), arguing for the divinity status of anyone (or prophet, or saint, etc) is a waste of time.
like those who wear end-of-the-world signs in the city bus
they won't look so crazy when the world finally does end!!
ya, they probably will. oh well.
^ I very much agree with you on that Quondam.
Mind blown. I totally agree with quondam's post of July 15, 2016 at 10:52am. That's exactly how I feel about religion.
Quondam, I've been ignoring you lately but it's lovely to read something by you and feel this sense of connection.
Faith is a difficult concept to grasp particularly by those that have always believed the world is wholly shaped by reason. My first encounter with it was in a Buddhist studies class trying to understand the concept of enlightenment. I wouldn't have called it faith at the time, but I think it is analogous. I still have a far from perfect understanding of it, but it is transformational when you leave yourself open to the possibilities.
The universe, its nature, it's physics, and the idea of "reality", is far weirder and more "supernatural" than any religion...truth is way way stranger than fiction...I personally find a "spiritual" fulfillment in the nature of things...and a comfort that my understanding is free to change and evolve as new scientific discoveries are made and new theories and understandings achieved...and so what if I call the collective consciousness/essence of all conscious things God vs nature...a decentralized God possibly...down to plants and microbes...maybe even inert materials...possibly stretching beyond our 3 dimensional selves into other dimensions of the multiverse...or hidden dimensions of our physical universe (11-12 dimensions as string theory suggests) Perhaps we can only see a small portion of reality...Perhaps the disconnect and distance betweeen things is an illision and we are still a singularity just imagining our own space and time...maybe we are simultaneously both...According to science the creator seems to be us...not just humans but all lifeforms...the ones collapsing the quantum wave function and creating reality...it's a scientifically proven fact that the observer turns wave potential into particle by simply observing...(see double slit experiment)...make that into a theme park...
A little channeling of Gould, Sagan, Hawkins and Einstein there Jla-x?
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