"On the events of the people's efforts to stop Islamic Center in lower Manhattan, take note. In that case, buildings are not necessary.
The New York grid itself could be utilized." 
"On the events of the people's efforts to stop Islamic Center in lower Manhattan, take note. In that case, buildings are not necessary.
The New York grid itself could be utilized." elseplace
28 Comments
Yes I heard about muslims praying in Paris streets and completely blocking the traffic and pedestrian pathways and I must say it is illegal.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/muslims-illegally-occupying-streets-of-paris-to-pray-muslim-militia-blocks-the-streets.html
There are actually mosques in downtown manhattan so they could totally use those mosques and they can actually pray in their own homes (you don't need a mosque to fullfill your praying needs) but these are muslims..They will do anything to create conflict and push their so called religion to non-muslims faces.
'These disturbing and eerily aggressive group-thinking are freely circulated and unchallenged by the authorities in charge of protecting the well being of the innocent.'
Allow me, as an atheist American, to challenge the above post by Parado0xx86.
Had you even bothered to read the entire article written by Mr. Ayyuce, you would realize how eagerly you had cast yourself into a role of fear of ignorance.
I believe that there are a great deal of Americans who refuse to tolerate the threat to our nation which grows in the rallying of those who would call Islam 'a so-called religion' and hope to deny it equality of space and practice.
Paradox, reconsider broadcasting your similarity to the cowards that watched women burned as witches, Spaniards as heretics; Jews, Roma and homosexuals gassed. You are an ass.
Jesus, clicked on the link Paradox offered - Pamela "Atlas" Geller fighting for our freedoms in a tight suit! Yay! And interviewing luminaries like Coulter... Maybe that would be a better forum for insinuations about "muslims pushing their religion in non-muslim faces".
This is not the place to peddle prejudice and hate, thank you.
Wow I can't believe the ignorance here.I guess people in Los Angeles have no idea what is going on in Europe or in muslim countries.
People are calling me an "ass" for writing my opinions but nobody gets angry to the muslims who illegally occupy the streets.Praying on the streets has nothing to do with fulfilling their prayers but it is a political demonstration.In some parts of France,the French people can't enter the muslim neighborhoods because it is just plain dangerous.
And blackbook...do you know what they do to homosexuals in muslim countries?
A jab at L.A, huh? I've never lived in a 'muslim country'--though that terminology seems a little weak--however, before living here, I lived in several European countries; France among them, who harbors a xenophobia which is nothing to aspire to, even for Americans.
And no, peaceful political demonstration does not anger me. If I can handle the Tea Party on the Mall, I can handle a road delay due to men in prostration. I would have thought that your Islamaphobia would encourage this form of protest over the violent variety that you seem fixated on.
And yes, even here in Los Angeles I'm surrounded by neighborhoods that are 'just plain' too 'dangerous' for, if not me, my girlfriend to enter, and I would hope that someone would call me ass if I wrote a post making sweeping generalizations about Mexicans, Blacks, Samoans, the Dutch, or any other group who inhabits these neighborhoods.
Even if you want to reduce and over-simplify draconian corrupt regimes to Shiria law, I never advocated or defended theocracy. I am an atheist, in no small part due to such mistreatment. However, once you start condemning a particular group within your (read: US, French) society, your repugnance at foreign nations' treatment of dissidents, women, homosexuals, etc. loses all teeth, and again you find that you are, in fact, an ass.
so?
do you know what they do to homosexuals in america, asshole?
What intelligent banter everyone. Way to raise the bar!
What exactly does a muslim praying in a street have to do with architecture?
If this conversation is meant to be about the "Islamic Center" up for discussion in Lower Manhattan then let's not get side-tracked and address the facts.
Muslims over the course of history, (along with many other religious and secular groups) attack people and mark their victories with architectural marvels (in this case a mosque). Radical Muslims attacked Lower Manhattan and now want to place a mosque within blocks of the World Trade Center site. Those are the facts.
Allowing this trophy for radical Muslim pilgrimage to be built in this location would be an atrocity. And to allow it only out of fear from more attacks only proves the corrupt nature of those behind its inception.
wait, let me get this right; your comments raised the bar? you hate-monger.
ATTENTION:
I removed all irrelevant posts. Specially the ones that has no purpose other than attacking me for who I am. And, I will continue to do so..
You either post something relevant to my article or you are out!
It is called moderating my posts. Get it?
I am not going to let diabolical and repeat Orhan Ayyüce haters to pollute my news posts! There are few of you out there who get off doing it.
Go write your frustrations somewhere else...
@ bulldog,
This article in "elseplace" has everything to do with urbanism, culture and architecture in my opinion and I am the author and I am in a position to decide what qualifies!
Again, get it?
Civilized and intelligent discussions to oppose what I say or write are welcomed...
No Fox television style racist garbage are allowed.
I am going to let few of those borderline ones stay for now but if it is repeated, I will delete them all together and not allow the poster write again no matter what.
The imagery and commentary by Orhan is quite poetic, especially the first two images ,yes, especially the first.
I've seen this sort of presentation before, at SCI-Arc, it has a sort of Heideggerian cum Norberg-Schulz philosophical premise that introduces the beginning of a lecture, maybe back then it was by a Thom Mayne or a Robert Mangurian.... something about the idea of the origin of entry, the demarcation of inside and outside; illustrated as an arch, or a few sticks tied together as a frame, or a shadow drawn on the ground....so likewise, with Orhan's images, these illustrate similar phenomenological notions. this time the simplicity of prayer . So this line, this arch, this door, marks a boundary. Parallel concepts.
SO WHY IS THIS SO DIFFERENT? Why the clamor to censor? Why this rush to judge?and to jury? and finally execute? Is it the simple man drawing a line in the sand that is feared? or how many choose to stand on one side of the line or the other?
eric chavkin
Hear hear.
Much of the hate spawns from the urge to hate - any trigger will do - as can be noticed it relies on "other sources" than the ones at hand - straw men built just to be targets for attacks by cowards, intellectually and otherwise.
---
And the comments about N-S + Heidegger are spot on - but I'd like to add that here the connection to something more than mere spatial attributes is explicit - as it is implicit in heideggerian classes of space.
(If I remember anything from the few cases of actually leafing through some H text in school...)
Architecture is the art of wasting space... Yes I believe I've heard that somewhere. We should choose to waste it in the hopes of bringing people together as all great architecture does. Those who seek to build the Mosque do so with the intention of separating people and creating controversy. Of course, great architecture should inspire controversy, just like any art form, but not in this way. I encourage all of you to have a little more pride in your nation and what it stands for...freedom. For architects, the freedom to tap your most profound artistic inhibition - a freedom that is sadly not given to architects in Muslim societies. It is why we all love our great country!!! - is it not? Those who are intolerant and seek to change our definition of freedom should be greeted with the same amount of intolerance. Also, If you went to architecture school then you know what it is to have your work critiqued. Embrace the diversity of opinions and know that you can do nothing to deter opinions in a free society.
So how is the freedom to allow faiths and creeds to mingle, without excluding anyone, against this other (rabid!) kind of freedom that Freakin R promotes? I'm confused, but probably because I'm european and already "lost". [One thing that seems to be happening though, is that mr A let's through his moderating sieve all the most misguided and entertainingly crazy twits... A blessing of sorts to us "readers".]
---
But back to the main course - this discussion could be defused/re-railed a bit:
- the (architecturally) interesting thing in the article and accompanying images is not religion but the way space with minimum features can be used - in this case through a value inherent in all space (space on this planet anyway) - direction. That is interesting, and it would be fascinating to think of other instances where the qualities of places without built architecture make something possible.
helsinki, yes. "flashmobs" is another example of this type of urban spatiality.
but i don't want to take religion out of this because thorough that the spatial aspect has the weight and complexity.
few words on tolerance;
i think it is the muslim community who has been extremely tolerant and so far peaceful in the face of all the atrocities verbally and psychologically. their numbers in this country alone are not negligible by any means.
As a Christian I take part in mass on Sundays. Although, Jesus did say our church can be a rock. Those Sundays my family and I do not attend church we pray at home or wherever we may be. I understand the articles point of view, however, given the nuances of the Muslim faith, I see it as more an imposition to use NYC as your place of prayer. The fact of the matter is that Muslims have a track record here in the US (and abroad), and not a good one to say the least. Those who are confused only need to look to our recent history - especially in NYC. The ignorance I read in some of these comments is profound and that is why some of you are confused. Seek God, rely in God, but do not commit to horrible actions in His name. Those architects that are confused, I invite you to pick up the greatest architecture book - the Bible.
FR, I got your point. Thanks. You don't need to repeat anymore.
Other faiths also claim/use/dedicate architecture on their buildings.
I saw this in San Francisco last week.
I think an interesting aspect of this dialogue has to focus on the idea of "placemaking" in an area that has been so effected by a specific event that it drives a stake into most other discussions.
The article may just need to choose a focus to separate itself from the most controversial aspect implied in its title.
Is the focus the beauty and simplicity in rituals and reverence towards a god as shown by a people and their architecture? In this case, I think we all as designers can agree that there is a joy we find in the public having such a direct relationship to the built environment. We may even strive to create homes, civic buildings, and public spaces that can be recognized and appreciated in a similar way evoking emotion and making all users aware of the value of the spaces around them.
On the other hand, the title of the article immediately jades this viewpoint by using the most controversial mosque in US history as a starting point. The title makes a social argument while the article makes an architectural one, the architectural being the much more interesting and influential in my eyes.
"Those who seek to build the Mosque do so with the intention of separating people and creating controversy"
Where is this coming from?! Why is it so difficult to understand that perhaps people would like a proper mosque to PRAY and meditate in? The daily prayers are about pressing 'pause' and making peace with your environs for a short while; it's about transcending and unifying.
This fact is very clear and understood by those who engage in the prayer and countless others who don't. Please correct yourself and understand the ramifications of your ignorance when posting on a public forum.
p.s. It isn't a mosque. It's a community center with top floors designated for salat prayers. The only thing that worries me is the proposed basketball court . . few muslims can play ball.
And I'm sorry, but 'track record', really?
Muslims in this country come from all races, economic backgrounds and have quite a diverse range of beliefs and codes of conducts.
American Muslims are cab drivers, teachers, doctors, lawyers, nightclub owners, architects, athiests (yes, it is possible to identify with two conflicting notions simultaneously—shocker!), strippers, you name it.
Many follow the religion strictly, many follow it loosely.
I'm curious of the records you keep, please share your facts and figures because I'm sure most of us would like to know.
not to stray to far from architecture, but i want to see uhhhhh get 4 guys and take on Shareef Abdur Rahim, Nazr Mohammed, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Mahmoud Abdur Rauf. Also, if you want to see his 'facts and figures', just change your spam settings, and you'll find some real scholarly gems about Islam--decorated with eagles and flags and such--right in between ads for penis-pills and correspondence from Nigerian princes' down on their luck.
More seriously, I have been thinking about how much more passionate people are concerning the Cultural Center being/not being built than either 1 World Trade Center or the WTC memorial. While irrationality and emotion has certainly propelled 1 World Trade Center, see the article posted on archinect a few weeks back, its design and development has seemingly produced more yawns than outcries or applause.
It's too bad that exclusion, fear and xenophobia are more compelling in increasing discourse about the built environment. Also, no one has mentioned some of the amazing architectural projects, (often very progressive and at the forefront of known engineering) which have come out of the Islamic world--religious, cultural and otherwise--in last ten years, to say nothing of the past 1,300 years.
Take it easy people. Discussions should be kept civil. Insulting remarks only serve to discredit you and your opinions on this forum. Anyways, my wife spent 3 years in Dubai's American University Campus where she met the good and the bad. Dubai, a crown jewel of the Middle East, not only for its built environment but for their embrace of several worldwide architecture firms which have done marvelous work - construction slave labor aside. Well, to make a long story short, the good followed their religion strictly, embraced the american culture, and talked about their religion with fear and disdain for the repressions imposed on them - especially women. The bad followed there religion strictly, saw foreigners as threats, and menaced those - especially women - for not wearing proper attire, such as the robes and covering of the body and face. Many men practiced promiscuity while women where threatened with death for even insinuating this. Women architects do not exist for this is the realm of man, and man only. This, Dubai, the most open minded of the Middle Eastern countries. I choose not to accept this, and I certainly do not want it in my country. Religion, whether it be Buddhist, Christian, Catholicism, what have you, is the seeking of truth and life through God. It should not be about holding back spirituality - fear and repression tend to do this. My experience has been somewhat limited except for a trip to France where I was appalled by their (several taxi cab drivers and a my friends "friend") disdain for the US and what we represent. Intolerance begets intolerance, at least from my end.
@ uhhh
You might have meant it as a humorous point but I want to make a case in point against generalizations.
A Muslim nation, currently holds the second place in the World when it comes to basketball.
Check this out, they can play ball, very well indeed..
FIBA 2010
Why not basketball court or soccer field or volleyball court? These sports are very popular in many Muslim countries. Why not Muslim youth play tennis with their Christian or Jewish friends? I like the opening and closing ceremonies of Olympics. All nations come together and, at the end, during closing, everybody mix. I think this is really symbolically beautiful part of the Games. Like, everybody surf the turf.
btw, this is how they treat 'gays' here...
http://www.care2.com/causes/civil-rights/blog/three-tortured-raped-just-for-being-gay/
way to advance your discussion, orhan, leading by example...and then being shocked when people comment similarly... lets all just generalize!
why is this discussion being brought up by you on facebook 9 months later?
and i dislike the comments that people make on your posts as much as you do..but you need to stop playing the victim when you make similar posts back.
'and the post in archinect has some out there (!) comments coming supposedly educated group of architects!'
orhan
Palestinians pray in open air --their mosques destroyed by the Israeli military --their minaret no longer points to heavens --it points wayward --towards the lost moral compass of the racist leaders of the US and Europe and their mass media --now including and in particular the Guardian --the minaret resembles a pointed finger of accusation --it accuses those who bombed Gaza and those who armed their European settler colony to do the bombing-- Hamid Dabashi
National Cathedral Holds Friday Muslim Prayers
heh...I just came across this silliness above : "This, Dubai, the most open minded of the Middle Eastern countries."
Seriously, how ignorant can people here be. But more importantly, being ignorant, how ridiculously pumped full of hubris to allow themselves a position of informing others.
Stupidity and hubris. Pretty much the hallmarks of orientalism, albeit this one comes with more than its share of ignorance.
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