I know there are a lot of threads concerning working in China already.
But now that I've been offered a job there myself(which i am seriously considering), it has become personal..
I am a recent graduate with less than 1 year of exp.
I was recently offered a job from a major international firm in Beijing with a monthly salary of 19000rmb(gross). They told me I would be paying my taxes in HK so it would be much lower than paying Chinese taxes. Would there be any legal issues with this though? So far it seems there would not be any other benefits. Although I am not 100% sure.
I was also offered a salary of 18000rmb(net) from a beijing based starchitect office last year, also w/o any benefits what so ever.(Which I eventually turned down)
I just wanted to know what are things I should ask for/secure beforehand as a foreigner in China? Is the above mentioned amount a reasonable number? Those of you working in China, what kind of benefits do you receive there?
Also, I heard for expats, medical insurance becomes a hot issue, where it could be very expensive. How are foreigners going about this?
You want to check with an accountant just to make sure that it is alright for them to pay you the salary out of their HK office, but I think it is, and there is another reason for it: if anything goes wrong both you and the firm would be better protected in HK, since the legal and arbitration process there is much more accessible and transparent than the one in China. So, yes, definitely get paid in HK if you can, but make sure the tax thing works (which means talking with an accountant).
Your problem is this: if you are a US citizen, you may be subject to double taxation (the higher of the two rates, then net back your foreign taxes as a deduction to the US taxes paid). In that case, you may be taxed at the much higher US rate. If that is the case, you will want to see if you can negotiate a gross-up to the gross salary to reflect the tax difference between you (as an American) and a normal Chinese citizen in Hongkong.
19000 rmb net per month gross is about $33,400 per year at the current exchange rate; however most economists are speculating that they may be targeting RMB:USD 5.5 this year and 4.5 by 2012, so you could, if the gods are on your side, conceivably be making $41k by the end of the year and $50k within a couple. I just asked the woman in the next cubicle, who just got back from Beijing, and sae said that 19,000 is more than adequate to live on in Beijing.
This really is an incredible discussion if you think about it.. hundreds of thousands of Americans taking or contemplating taking jobs in China paying the same salaries comparably trained Chinese citizens are making, sometimes with fewer benefits. Boy, the world has changed...
That's a very good salary for a graduate position in mainland China. And Urbanist has rightly pointed that the exchange rate presumably is going to be very beneficial in the near future for someone who is payed in remimbi.
It really seems Chinese are becoming crazy again with real-estate and desperately looking for architects. Let's see how long it takes until the next real-estate explosion.
Are you already in China or got the job from the US?
19000 rmb will def allow you a comfortable lifestyle in beijing (and def isn't the salary a comparably trained chinese citizen is making). Don't think there'd be any legal issues with the taxes since a lot of foreign companies I know of register themselves in HK anyways, though'd you'd definitely have to check out the double taxation issue as urbanist said.
Don't see why you wouldn't get benefits though, in my experience that's pretty common practice for international firms here. At the least they should cover your medical. You probably also want to check into whether or not they'll pay for a flight home once a year since i know some firms do this (not mine though unfortunately).
Just out of curiosity is your degree undergrad or grad? Always trying to figure out what other people are making in china ;). I'm in shanghai btw.
Urbanist, Hawkin and niuchao, thank you for your comments they were a tremendous help! I will definitely look into the double taxation situation as well, and the currency rate is something I never thought about. Thanks for the insight.
And niuchao, I have a M.Arch. :)
I reviewed a draft contract and there were no benefits. No return flight, no help with relocation, no overtime pay, no help with housing(they mentioned they would help me look for an apartment though) and no medical insurance.
And like Urbanist said, a lot of us are seriously contemplating about taking jobs overseas, often times because of the current situations with our economy..accepting a salary thats sometimes less than what you can make back home.
I was offered a 'full-time' job with an Italian starchitect studio last year and their initial offer was 1300 euro/mo. But I had to enter and work with a tourist visa and leave the country and re-enter every 3 months. Again no benefits. They later bumped up the offer to 1600 euro/mo but then again, no job security and no safety net working overseas and the pay isn't good at all? Maybe for an internship that's more than good. I know in architecture the experience-factor could out-weigh a lot of the negatives. But what I found really tough was when you don't have a good job offer in the US but you have an offer from a foreign office but, with terrible working conditions. And you are forced into a situation where you have to contemplate..am I going to be unemployed or at least go get the experience and possibly live a nomadic life? :(
Well anyways, So yeah, It seems, their offer of 19000rmb/mo is actually a decent offer. I will post any updates after the negotiations. Again I appreciate everyone's comments it was a huge help!
If you are concerned about healthcare in Beijing, I strongly recommend looking into "International SOS" (http://www.internationalsos.com/en/ourresources_clinics_china_38.htm). They offer independent insurance policies and maybe you could get your firm to at least get you a policy with just this branch.
it's kinda perverse and totally unacceptable that reputable intl firms would actually advise their new hires to violate immigration laws. If you took an offer on those terms you'd be an illegal alien there. I'd have been sorely tempted to turn down the offer and instead report that starchitect to the Chinese immigration authorities. Conspiracy to commit visa fraud must be a crime there, as it is in the US.
Visa applications are much more lax when you apply from outside of China, especially from the US. Just get an invitation letter and apply for a business visa. I've had to work on a tourist visa temporarily because my company was too cheap to renew my business visa since I was returnning to the US for the holidays. I don't recommend doing it for more than 3 months...It's awfully difficult to renew your residency permit and explain yourself at the police station.
Also, I wouldn't put it passed a company to use your illegal status against you...it's business...it's China...these things happen unfortunately
This site can answer all of your questions about getting a visa. I'd suggest saving the pages as a pdf since this site is blocked in china
19k is definitely plenty of money to get by on in China. I work for a Chinese firm in Beijing and get payed pretty much the same amount. However, I pay taxes in RMB which seems to be about 25%. of my salary
Working in China has changed quite a bit since the Olympics. You must first get a Z visa which requires a letter of invitation and a work permit. Getting the Visa in Hong Kong is much easier than in the States in that The consulates in the US requires 1 specific type of permit where as the one in Hong Kong accepts them from various regional offices/ in various forms. The consulate in Hong Kong is also very organized and professional as opposed to the absolute chaos at the one in NYC. Anyways once you get to China you then have to apply for a residency permit. To get this you much have your z visa/ letters from former employers verifying your work experience, diplomas stating your education and a heath certificate which I had to get at a special aliens heath admin building in china. I've heard you can get a health certificate in the states but I don't know exactly how that works. All this takes at least 2 months to do before you go and at least a month once you get here. I recommend making sure your employer is aware of all this. I have friends who have been here since 05 and 06 and they said it was nothing like it is now in terms of getting a living permit.
I worked in china teaching english for two years, 1900 RMB is more than enough to get by on, you'll be able to save a bit I'm sure. If you don't mind me asking, what was your job application process like for working abroad? I am wondering because I am interested in eventually doing this as well..Good Luck!
Currently working in Beijing... 19000 a month is most definitely a lot of money in Beijing... if I was making that I could probably save at least 1000 USD a month!!!
I would love to meet some architects in Beijing especially those interested in scripting MEL/Rhino... anyone out there?
The visa situation is especially tricky in China right now.
Apparenlty for a work visa now you need 1) at least 2 years work experience (they count this from the day you graduate, and you need 'proof') 2) you need your original university diploma 3) you need to be born before 1984..
i didn't fall into any of these categories.. but there are agencies that can help if your employer is willing to pay so that you don't have to leave every 3 months.
if you have all these things, your employer should be able to get you a work visa.. but it's a complicated process, so they probably want to make sure you are worth it.
ps. 19000 is pretty good i think! if you insist on eating foreign food all the time and need to have an extremely modern or spacious flat, you might be running a little tight. but hopefully you won't be bound to that expat bubble!
Trust me 19,000 is more than enough to live in Beijing. I live in a kickass flat and eat well enough with plenty of money to go out... Plus I don't make anywhere near 19,000 pounds.
As far as the work visa stuff goes... my experience is that t is easy to get a visa... maybe jump through a few hoops but I also know that a lot of people work here on tourist visas... and just visit HK every three months. It isn't nearly as hard or complicated for foreigners to get a Chinese work visa as it is to get a UK/US visa..
Let's keep this thread going. I recently accepted an offer of 15,000 rmb/month (pre-tax) in Shanghai. Judging by apartment prices, and that should be just fine (though I'm a little jealous of ATSX - I've got nearly two years experience). The company is a large international firm, and healthcare and other benefits are part of the package.
More than the visa issues and healthcare and pay, I'm interested to hear about motivation - if you're considering a move to china, do you see it as a temporary fix, a way to stay employed until the job market picks up in the US? Or do you see this as a more permanent move? Are you excited by the prospect of actually building some ridiculous towers?
Personally, I'm undecided, but ready to commit to a few years, and see what happens....
@evanc: I think you are quite brave to speak about staying a couple of years. If you "survive" the culture shock, only then you can start thinking that way.
And that is coming from somebody living there for a couple of years... So I know what I am talking about.
Then again, good luck. It is a wonderful opportunity! And try to travel a bit...
thanks for the concern macroen - culture shock is half the fun! i've been living in europe for a while, and it's been easier than i ever expected, so I'm hoping for a challenge. I'll try to travel as much as possible... that's the other half.
The 'few years' aspect is really only a prediction - my previous jobs have been internships (one for 1 year, one for 8 months) so I hope I can stick with one company for a longer period of time, wherever it is.
I have just moved to SH to look for work, and I can verify some of this info and offer some advice. After only a few days I have already had a number of interviews with local and foreign firms.
Salary
The job offers that are on the table for me are 3500-5000RMB per month. Other firms I will interview with later this week are offering 8,000-10,000. 14,000 seems like a pretty standard figure for someone with a couple years' experience. I have zero experience, and am still in an MArch program. I come from a non-arch background.
Expenses
You will make less, but the cost of living is far, far lower. I am actually a bit surprised by what people say their expenses are. I have secured a central downtown apt in a communal building for relatively little. It is cheaper to find a place after you arrive, so use craigslist or couchsurfing.com to find a temporary place before you arrive. Other than accommodation, with a little discipline you can easily spend less than 50RMB per day. For example, a common breakfast is 2-3RMB, a lunch may be 6-15, and dinner 18 - 30 with a beer. 2RMB worth of fruit for snacks. Eat simply, and cook at home sometimes. You will be in one of the best countries in the world for eating well, so skip the pizzas and burgers and sushi, all of which will burn a hole in your pocket and aren't as good as at home. Don't go to bars too much, since drinks that cost 40RMB there can cost 1.5RMB at the store. And you get a deposit back on bottles. I never really use cabs, except late at night when the metro isnt running. I go through an average 8RMB per day on transport.
Adjusting to China
I have a fair bit of experience here, but have never found the culture shock to be that bad. Lots of places have a worse 'shock factor' in my experience, like Russia and S America. Some foreign people genuinely struggle, mostly with the public spitting and different conceptions of personal space. But China is an incredibly easy country to live and travel in, as the people are eager to help you. It is completely safe for women. If you dont care to learn Chinese, Beijing and Shanghai allow you to comfortably take that route. But in the long run this will cost you dearly in both experience and hard cash. At least learn to say any number up to 1000 and youll be fine.
This is a really exciting time to work here, and finding a job is far easier than in N America. Good luck to all who are thinking of trying China out.
@ romot, How long and difficult is it to get Visa? I heard about the 2 year experience and degree requirements, but I didn't know that you also have to be born before 1984. I have just under 2 years of experience, and born after 84, could I still qualify?
@Orion, I was told by an employer that the visa process takes only 2-3 weeks? Could he be referring to only the portion to be done in China embassy in the US, and excluding all the paper work they have to do in China?
question for the architects working in china - did you find the job from abroad? interview via skype? OR enter china on toursit visa, and then start looking for a job, and then apply for work permit?
Another China thread
Hi,
I know there are a lot of threads concerning working in China already.
But now that I've been offered a job there myself(which i am seriously considering), it has become personal..
I am a recent graduate with less than 1 year of exp.
I was recently offered a job from a major international firm in Beijing with a monthly salary of 19000rmb(gross). They told me I would be paying my taxes in HK so it would be much lower than paying Chinese taxes. Would there be any legal issues with this though? So far it seems there would not be any other benefits. Although I am not 100% sure.
I was also offered a salary of 18000rmb(net) from a beijing based starchitect office last year, also w/o any benefits what so ever.(Which I eventually turned down)
I just wanted to know what are things I should ask for/secure beforehand as a foreigner in China? Is the above mentioned amount a reasonable number? Those of you working in China, what kind of benefits do you receive there?
Also, I heard for expats, medical insurance becomes a hot issue, where it could be very expensive. How are foreigners going about this?
Any insight would be very welcomed.
I'm curious to hear responses to this.
ATXS,
You want to check with an accountant just to make sure that it is alright for them to pay you the salary out of their HK office, but I think it is, and there is another reason for it: if anything goes wrong both you and the firm would be better protected in HK, since the legal and arbitration process there is much more accessible and transparent than the one in China. So, yes, definitely get paid in HK if you can, but make sure the tax thing works (which means talking with an accountant).
Your problem is this: if you are a US citizen, you may be subject to double taxation (the higher of the two rates, then net back your foreign taxes as a deduction to the US taxes paid). In that case, you may be taxed at the much higher US rate. If that is the case, you will want to see if you can negotiate a gross-up to the gross salary to reflect the tax difference between you (as an American) and a normal Chinese citizen in Hongkong.
19000 rmb net per month gross is about $33,400 per year at the current exchange rate; however most economists are speculating that they may be targeting RMB:USD 5.5 this year and 4.5 by 2012, so you could, if the gods are on your side, conceivably be making $41k by the end of the year and $50k within a couple. I just asked the woman in the next cubicle, who just got back from Beijing, and sae said that 19,000 is more than adequate to live on in Beijing.
This really is an incredible discussion if you think about it.. hundreds of thousands of Americans taking or contemplating taking jobs in China paying the same salaries comparably trained Chinese citizens are making, sometimes with fewer benefits. Boy, the world has changed...
That's a very good salary for a graduate position in mainland China. And Urbanist has rightly pointed that the exchange rate presumably is going to be very beneficial in the near future for someone who is payed in remimbi.
It really seems Chinese are becoming crazy again with real-estate and desperately looking for architects. Let's see how long it takes until the next real-estate explosion.
Are you already in China or got the job from the US?
19000 rmb will def allow you a comfortable lifestyle in beijing (and def isn't the salary a comparably trained chinese citizen is making). Don't think there'd be any legal issues with the taxes since a lot of foreign companies I know of register themselves in HK anyways, though'd you'd definitely have to check out the double taxation issue as urbanist said.
Don't see why you wouldn't get benefits though, in my experience that's pretty common practice for international firms here. At the least they should cover your medical. You probably also want to check into whether or not they'll pay for a flight home once a year since i know some firms do this (not mine though unfortunately).
Just out of curiosity is your degree undergrad or grad? Always trying to figure out what other people are making in china ;). I'm in shanghai btw.
Urbanist, Hawkin and niuchao, thank you for your comments they were a tremendous help! I will definitely look into the double taxation situation as well, and the currency rate is something I never thought about. Thanks for the insight.
And niuchao, I have a M.Arch. :)
I reviewed a draft contract and there were no benefits. No return flight, no help with relocation, no overtime pay, no help with housing(they mentioned they would help me look for an apartment though) and no medical insurance.
And like Urbanist said, a lot of us are seriously contemplating about taking jobs overseas, often times because of the current situations with our economy..accepting a salary thats sometimes less than what you can make back home.
I was offered a 'full-time' job with an Italian starchitect studio last year and their initial offer was 1300 euro/mo. But I had to enter and work with a tourist visa and leave the country and re-enter every 3 months. Again no benefits. They later bumped up the offer to 1600 euro/mo but then again, no job security and no safety net working overseas and the pay isn't good at all? Maybe for an internship that's more than good. I know in architecture the experience-factor could out-weigh a lot of the negatives. But what I found really tough was when you don't have a good job offer in the US but you have an offer from a foreign office but, with terrible working conditions. And you are forced into a situation where you have to contemplate..am I going to be unemployed or at least go get the experience and possibly live a nomadic life? :(
Well anyways, So yeah, It seems, their offer of 19000rmb/mo is actually a decent offer. I will post any updates after the negotiations. Again I appreciate everyone's comments it was a huge help!
If you are concerned about healthcare in Beijing, I strongly recommend looking into "International SOS" (http://www.internationalsos.com/en/ourresources_clinics_china_38.htm). They offer independent insurance policies and maybe you could get your firm to at least get you a policy with just this branch.
ATSX: you are not allowed to work on a tourist visa! You need, quite surprising, a work permit...
19K is quite decent...
well you're definitely not supposed to work on a tourist visa, but that doesn't mean it isn't done....
it's kinda perverse and totally unacceptable that reputable intl firms would actually advise their new hires to violate immigration laws. If you took an offer on those terms you'd be an illegal alien there. I'd have been sorely tempted to turn down the offer and instead report that starchitect to the Chinese immigration authorities. Conspiracy to commit visa fraud must be a crime there, as it is in the US.
Visa applications are much more lax when you apply from outside of China, especially from the US. Just get an invitation letter and apply for a business visa. I've had to work on a tourist visa temporarily because my company was too cheap to renew my business visa since I was returnning to the US for the holidays. I don't recommend doing it for more than 3 months...It's awfully difficult to renew your residency permit and explain yourself at the police station.
Also, I wouldn't put it passed a company to use your illegal status against you...it's business...it's China...these things happen unfortunately
This site can answer all of your questions about getting a visa. I'd suggest saving the pages as a pdf since this site is blocked in china
http://fxzl.blogspot.com/
19k is definitely plenty of money to get by on in China. I work for a Chinese firm in Beijing and get payed pretty much the same amount. However, I pay taxes in RMB which seems to be about 25%. of my salary
Working in China has changed quite a bit since the Olympics. You must first get a Z visa which requires a letter of invitation and a work permit. Getting the Visa in Hong Kong is much easier than in the States in that The consulates in the US requires 1 specific type of permit where as the one in Hong Kong accepts them from various regional offices/ in various forms. The consulate in Hong Kong is also very organized and professional as opposed to the absolute chaos at the one in NYC. Anyways once you get to China you then have to apply for a residency permit. To get this you much have your z visa/ letters from former employers verifying your work experience, diplomas stating your education and a heath certificate which I had to get at a special aliens heath admin building in china. I've heard you can get a health certificate in the states but I don't know exactly how that works. All this takes at least 2 months to do before you go and at least a month once you get here. I recommend making sure your employer is aware of all this. I have friends who have been here since 05 and 06 and they said it was nothing like it is now in terms of getting a living permit.
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/hzqz/zgqz/t84245.htm
http://apps.ah.gov.cn/Working/mainmenu.asp?newsid=170&kind=hasmenu&name=typeid2&title=Foreign%20Experts%20Work%20Permit%20in%20China
scroll down to the bottom on the second link
hope this helps and good luck
I worked in china teaching english for two years, 1900 RMB is more than enough to get by on, you'll be able to save a bit I'm sure. If you don't mind me asking, what was your job application process like for working abroad? I am wondering because I am interested in eventually doing this as well..Good Luck!
Currently working in Beijing... 19000 a month is most definitely a lot of money in Beijing... if I was making that I could probably save at least 1000 USD a month!!!
I would love to meet some architects in Beijing especially those interested in scripting MEL/Rhino... anyone out there?
The visa situation is especially tricky in China right now.
Apparenlty for a work visa now you need 1) at least 2 years work experience (they count this from the day you graduate, and you need 'proof') 2) you need your original university diploma 3) you need to be born before 1984..
i didn't fall into any of these categories.. but there are agencies that can help if your employer is willing to pay so that you don't have to leave every 3 months.
if you have all these things, your employer should be able to get you a work visa.. but it's a complicated process, so they probably want to make sure you are worth it.
ps. 19000 is pretty good i think! if you insist on eating foreign food all the time and need to have an extremely modern or spacious flat, you might be running a little tight. but hopefully you won't be bound to that expat bubble!
the term "foreign chattel" comes to mind.
Good luck (assuming you aren't Chinese)...you'll very likely need as much as you can get.
Trust me 19,000 is more than enough to live in Beijing. I live in a kickass flat and eat well enough with plenty of money to go out... Plus I don't make anywhere near 19,000 pounds.
As far as the work visa stuff goes... my experience is that t is easy to get a visa... maybe jump through a few hoops but I also know that a lot of people work here on tourist visas... and just visit HK every three months. It isn't nearly as hard or complicated for foreigners to get a Chinese work visa as it is to get a UK/US visa..
Let's keep this thread going. I recently accepted an offer of 15,000 rmb/month (pre-tax) in Shanghai. Judging by apartment prices, and that should be just fine (though I'm a little jealous of ATSX - I've got nearly two years experience). The company is a large international firm, and healthcare and other benefits are part of the package.
More than the visa issues and healthcare and pay, I'm interested to hear about motivation - if you're considering a move to china, do you see it as a temporary fix, a way to stay employed until the job market picks up in the US? Or do you see this as a more permanent move? Are you excited by the prospect of actually building some ridiculous towers?
Personally, I'm undecided, but ready to commit to a few years, and see what happens....
evenc: with only 2 years of experience, you got 15000 rmb. I think this is a gorgeous offer. Are u from a top 10 school?
I heared someone with 3-4 years bachelor degree got an offer as a manager position representing US firm in china.
@evanc: I think you are quite brave to speak about staying a couple of years. If you "survive" the culture shock, only then you can start thinking that way.
And that is coming from somebody living there for a couple of years... So I know what I am talking about.
Then again, good luck. It is a wonderful opportunity! And try to travel a bit...
thanks for the concern macroen - culture shock is half the fun! i've been living in europe for a while, and it's been easier than i ever expected, so I'm hoping for a challenge. I'll try to travel as much as possible... that's the other half.
The 'few years' aspect is really only a prediction - my previous jobs have been internships (one for 1 year, one for 8 months) so I hope I can stick with one company for a longer period of time, wherever it is.
I have just moved to SH to look for work, and I can verify some of this info and offer some advice. After only a few days I have already had a number of interviews with local and foreign firms.
Salary
The job offers that are on the table for me are 3500-5000RMB per month. Other firms I will interview with later this week are offering 8,000-10,000. 14,000 seems like a pretty standard figure for someone with a couple years' experience. I have zero experience, and am still in an MArch program. I come from a non-arch background.
Expenses
You will make less, but the cost of living is far, far lower. I am actually a bit surprised by what people say their expenses are. I have secured a central downtown apt in a communal building for relatively little. It is cheaper to find a place after you arrive, so use craigslist or couchsurfing.com to find a temporary place before you arrive. Other than accommodation, with a little discipline you can easily spend less than 50RMB per day. For example, a common breakfast is 2-3RMB, a lunch may be 6-15, and dinner 18 - 30 with a beer. 2RMB worth of fruit for snacks. Eat simply, and cook at home sometimes. You will be in one of the best countries in the world for eating well, so skip the pizzas and burgers and sushi, all of which will burn a hole in your pocket and aren't as good as at home. Don't go to bars too much, since drinks that cost 40RMB there can cost 1.5RMB at the store. And you get a deposit back on bottles. I never really use cabs, except late at night when the metro isnt running. I go through an average 8RMB per day on transport.
Adjusting to China
I have a fair bit of experience here, but have never found the culture shock to be that bad. Lots of places have a worse 'shock factor' in my experience, like Russia and S America. Some foreign people genuinely struggle, mostly with the public spitting and different conceptions of personal space. But China is an incredibly easy country to live and travel in, as the people are eager to help you. It is completely safe for women. If you dont care to learn Chinese, Beijing and Shanghai allow you to comfortably take that route. But in the long run this will cost you dearly in both experience and hard cash. At least learn to say any number up to 1000 and youll be fine.
This is a really exciting time to work here, and finding a job is far easier than in N America. Good luck to all who are thinking of trying China out.
@ romot, How long and difficult is it to get Visa? I heard about the 2 year experience and degree requirements, but I didn't know that you also have to be born before 1984. I have just under 2 years of experience, and born after 84, could I still qualify?
@Orion, I was told by an employer that the visa process takes only 2-3 weeks? Could he be referring to only the portion to be done in China embassy in the US, and excluding all the paper work they have to do in China?
question for the architects working in china - did you find the job from abroad? interview via skype? OR enter china on toursit visa, and then start looking for a job, and then apply for work permit?
Does HK not have a tax treaty with the US. If it does, you do not get taxes twice. The taxes you pay in HK will count as credit here in the US.
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