To those who work in NYC....how is the job market now for architects? Things seem to be picking up a bit based on the jobs posting but what is the reality?
I am currently living in the Southwest where there are absolutely no jobs in architecture and I would be surprised if we see any within the next couple of years. I will relocate and try a new market before I go get a job as a waiter at Applebees. Thoughts?
Everyone i speak with seems optimistic. Things are busy but the fees are very low and the projects seem very tenuous.
If i were to be laid-off tomorrow i feel 73% confident that i would find employment within 4 months. Things have the potential to turn around (construction wise) in the spring. Not that I'm an expert, but i have heard that from several decent sources.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere else looking for work right now.
Things are better in New York than the rest of the country. Some of the smaller and mid size firms are starting to get more work and pick up a few more people while the larger corporate firms are still nervous about hiring, and in some cases still laying off.
iheartbooks....I like your optimistic attitude and be happy you're working. Your 73 percent chance of getting rehired within 4 months is probably a bit too optimistic. There is a huge backlog of architects out of work in this city...some of which have been jobless for over a year.
If I could relate it to a previous architecture recession cycle in new york, I would say we are seeing similar hiring conditions to the end of 03 beginning of 04 where people were just starting to recover from the fallout of 9/11 (however this recession is much worse in comparison). We all remember how things really took off in 05 so give it another year and hopefully we should see much stronger hiring. New York will come back first, so overall its better to be here if you can afford the high cost of living.
I was laid off at the end of 2008. I think it is better now than it was then, but that doesn't mean it is good. It took me 9 months to find another job in architecture, and that job is freelance. I still haven't found a permanent position in an office and it is going on 15 months.
You're sure it's not 74 percent? ;-) But seriously, what would the actual graph look like in different areas of the country and for people at different stages of their career? I'm considering trying to move jobs and I'm banking on 50% chance of finding another job within 6 months, 70% within 1 year, and 90% within 18 months, that is if I search diligently and without ceasing. 2 years of experience post-grad school currently. Unreasonable?
I was laid off in 2008 as well, and just found a temporary freelance job in beginning of 2010. Things are definitely starting to look better in NY, but they all want people with at least 5 years of experience for junior position. Things are getting better but only for skilled individuals not for recent grads or for people like me who have less than 1 years of experience and more than 1 year or unemployment...
One should point out that there's no real evidence of demand recovery in the NYC real estate market yet - commercial is still dead and residential is,well, worse... other than the anaemic Wall St bonus related cyclical increase.
Parts of the southwest are showing more signs of life.
@zen maker
I have more experience than you, but not 5 years of experience. My observation of the market is that employers are being really specific as to what they want now that they have a lot more people to choose from (ie X years of healthcare experience, X years of Revit experience, etc). And even though it is better now than then, I still think you are more likely to find a job if you have someone who will put your resume in front of the person who is hiring. I think this is hard to do as a young professional because I don't have as many connections, much less, employed connections.
@Urbanist
I think recovery is going to take years rather than months, but I haven't heard about large layoffs like there were a year ago year ago. I am hoping that since architecture got hit hard in the beginning that we will recuperate earlier than other professions.
It's curious Urbanist should say that there seems to be more signs of life in the Southwest when a good 75% of the job posts these days on Archinect are all for New York.
I'm more interested to see if people working in New York are making an acceptable salary. I would be willing to make the move but I am a little worried that I'm going to get hired in the 30-40k range and I can't imagine how anyone can make that work in New York with rent, loan payments, etc.
My comment related to market fundamentals for new construction, not to arch jobs. In the longterm, the amount of new Bdg activity will be the best indicator of arch jobs... not a count of arc jobs on arhinect based on a sampling of maybe 8 posts. NY will always account for a disproportionate number of new arch jobs just because of the size of the industry in this city and the fact that NY firms service clients globally.
Well I wouldn't count on the Southwest to have an abundance of work/construction anytime soon. There is currently so much vacant real-estate very little new construction is happening and what little there is the competition for those jobs is very fierce.
interestingly, nearly all of the new non-governmental (private sector development) work we're recently has been outside of the NE and much if it in socal. Nothing new going on the NY metro area other than municipal planning commissions.
The Southwest showing signs of life?!? Phoenix and Las Vegas are two of the biggest markets in the Southwest and quite possibly two of the hardest hit cities in the country. Both are over built in all sectors, have extremely high foreclosure rates and extremely high unemployment rates. Yes I know...everyone is hurting but the Southwest is dead....vacant homes....vacant condo towers...projects that went belly up in the middle of construction just sitting there....that is what we are dealing with out here. The other problem is that architecture firms out here don't do any international work and rarely even national work....most just rely on the local markets. So most firms out have cut at least 50% to 75% of their staff and some have simply closed up shop. The little bit of work out here is in the medical field and we are starting to see a sign of life with state school projects as a result of the stimulus.
Urbanist,
I usually don't classify those cities as part of the "southwest"...even though they are South and West, I agree with Montagneux...Pacific Coast.
On that note...things do seem to be picking up in LA and I know several architects that have steady employment there. They also tell me that it is getting better and they are finding more work. I don't think San Diego is showing much improvement and I can't speak for SF or Denver. I think it is safe to say the NY and LA will be the first to recover and both are showing signs that things are getting better. Cities like Phoenix and Vegas will be last and are years away from recovery.
While there are definitely an increasing number of job postings showing up in nyc, and there does seem to be a (slightly) renewed sense of optimism in some cases, the backlog of architects still looking for work that otis151 mentioned is still the biggest hurdle for the unemployed here.
I was also laid off at the tail end of 2008, and finally had my first legit interview (I have been scrapping by on freelance) last week after sending out hundreds of applications over the past year. The person interviewing me said they received about 200 responses, and the position is part-time and on a mac-based platform (something I was hoping would limit the number of applicants). I've heard other firms receiving double that number within a couple of days for basic entry level or intermediate positions. So despite the increasing number of openings, the amount of people looking for work is continuing to make it extremely difficult to find something.
This gives you an idea on month-to-month's (1/31/09 cmopared with 1/31/10), price per square foot for residential sales:
Miami -42%
Chicago -23%
Phoenix -16%
New York -12%
Los Angeles -6%
San Francisco -4%
Charlotte NC +0%
Washington DC +0%
San Diego +2%
Seattle +9%
Denver +12%
Dallas +15%
Austin +18%
As you can see, whilst sales have picked up in NY, valuations are still in free-fall. LA and San Francisco, after experiencing >40% declines the previous year, are starting to stabilize. There are a very few bright spots, mostly due to constrained inventory following steep collapses the previous year (San Diego, Seattle) and a few places that have remained largely impervious (Charlotte, WDCm Denver and the Texas cities). I didn't mention Texas before because I like to pretend the state doesn't exist and therefore I tend to conveniently forget about it. Miami is deader than a doorknob and still dying, repeatedly and violently. It resurrect itself just to die all over again... and again, and again, and messier each time.
Those are interesting numbers and I think that they are a decent indicator of the over all economic situations in each city but I really don't think they say much about the available architectural job opportunities in each city. While firms in some cities such as Phx or Denver rely heavily on the local markets...firms in cities like LA or NY cross national and international borders for work. It is not unusual for a NY or LA based firm to be hired over a local firm in Phx or Denver. Then they just hire a local firm to manage the project and provide oversight. So while the economies of certain cities may be improving...it doesn't mean they have any work or need to hire anyone. Statistics will be statistics but I am really just interested in your opinion on the job market in NYC. How do you feel about it....are you working...are your friends working? There are several optimistic people on this thread and that really does say a lot. I search multiple places for indicators and there are more and more architectural job opportunities coming out of NY each day.... you can't argue with that. Yes...there are more unemployed architects in NY as well but what woud you do if you were sitting unemployed in one of these completely dead cities? If you have a competitive resume and the means to get to the fight do you throw your hat in or do you just sit and continue sinking where you are?
You can always try. A few people have mentioned this in the thread already, but you will have a lot more unemployed people competing for the same job as you. Maybe if you look at all of the architecture job listings there are 3-7 postings for positions in New York a day, but I am sure at least 100+ people are applying to each of them. It really helps if you have an "in." Expanding your scope will only make things better, but I wouldn't advise you to move here in the hopes of finding a job. If you have a friend's apartment you can stay at or can find a short term sublet, it may be worth checking out. I did this in Boston and Baltimore and decided from that that everywhere is screwed. Even though New York has a lot more things happening than where you may be, it is not that fun to be unemployed here unless you are willing to accumulate massive debts.
You can always try. A few people have mentioned this in the thread already, but you will have a lot more unemployed people competing for the same job as you. Maybe if you look at all of the architecture job listings there are 3-7 postings for positions in New York a day, but I am sure at least 100+ people are applying to each of them. It really helps if you have an "in." Expanding your scope will only make things better, but I wouldn't advise you to move here in the hopes of finding a job. If you have a friend's apartment you can stay at or can find a short term sublet, it may be worth checking out. I did this in Boston and Baltimore and decided from that that everywhere is screwed. Even though New York has a lot more things happening than where you may be, it is not that fun to be unemployed here unless you are willing to accumulate massive debts.
I see what you are saying. Moving to NY wouldn't be too hard for me as I do have family and friends in the city. I visit frequently so I have given this a lot of thought. Staying with family and/or friends is always an option but I am almost 30 years old so it would have to be very temporary for the sake of my sanity and theirs. I figure I could probably sustain myself for 6 months before I had to have a job...of course that doesn't take into consideration the challenges of finding someone that will sublet to me while I don't have a job. So yeah...lots to think about and lots to take into consideration.
What kind of work are unemployed architects doing to pass the time? Is there much contract/freelance work available? Would you say it is difficult to find a menial job....something unrelated just to pay the bills?
I didn't apply for menial jobs that were completely unrelated to the field. In my 9 months of unemployment after my lay off I tutored people who were trying to take the LEED exam before they changed it. I think you can get freelance work easier than a permanent job. If you are a renderer you can get freelance work even easier.
I go to the museum on free days, go to architecture events, and go on food adventures. I spend the rest of my time hiding in my cave and looking for competitions or jobs. I have a skewed idea of what other unemployed architects did since I think money wasn't an issue for a majority of my graduate school class.
I think you could find a 6 month sublet or a place that rents month to month. The month to month places are usually in less desirable locations, but I found a good one in Astoria. I have been here for 6 months but I the idea that I can cut and run. It relieves some of the pressure I had on me before when I had a roommate and a lease.
@sahar - thats true, connections are just as important as skill and experience, sometimes even more important... Couple of the people I worked with got jobs thru connections, because these firms didn't even post any ads, but somehow they got work there... You must be either a super-archi or just have a connection in a firm... tough times...
NYC job market
To those who work in NYC....how is the job market now for architects? Things seem to be picking up a bit based on the jobs posting but what is the reality?
I am currently living in the Southwest where there are absolutely no jobs in architecture and I would be surprised if we see any within the next couple of years. I will relocate and try a new market before I go get a job as a waiter at Applebees. Thoughts?
Applebees might be more promising.
applebees is hiring? that is promising.
Vinoly is hiring so rush and get those resumes in there
IMO:
Everyone i speak with seems optimistic. Things are busy but the fees are very low and the projects seem very tenuous.
If i were to be laid-off tomorrow i feel 73% confident that i would find employment within 4 months. Things have the potential to turn around (construction wise) in the spring. Not that I'm an expert, but i have heard that from several decent sources.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere else looking for work right now.
Things are better in New York than the rest of the country. Some of the smaller and mid size firms are starting to get more work and pick up a few more people while the larger corporate firms are still nervous about hiring, and in some cases still laying off.
iheartbooks....I like your optimistic attitude and be happy you're working. Your 73 percent chance of getting rehired within 4 months is probably a bit too optimistic. There is a huge backlog of architects out of work in this city...some of which have been jobless for over a year.
If I could relate it to a previous architecture recession cycle in new york, I would say we are seeing similar hiring conditions to the end of 03 beginning of 04 where people were just starting to recover from the fallout of 9/11 (however this recession is much worse in comparison). We all remember how things really took off in 05 so give it another year and hopefully we should see much stronger hiring. New York will come back first, so overall its better to be here if you can afford the high cost of living.
I was laid off at the end of 2008. I think it is better now than it was then, but that doesn't mean it is good. It took me 9 months to find another job in architecture, and that job is freelance. I still haven't found a permanent position in an office and it is going on 15 months.
You're sure it's not 74 percent? ;-) But seriously, what would the actual graph look like in different areas of the country and for people at different stages of their career? I'm considering trying to move jobs and I'm banking on 50% chance of finding another job within 6 months, 70% within 1 year, and 90% within 18 months, that is if I search diligently and without ceasing. 2 years of experience post-grad school currently. Unreasonable?
I was laid off in 2008 as well, and just found a temporary freelance job in beginning of 2010. Things are definitely starting to look better in NY, but they all want people with at least 5 years of experience for junior position. Things are getting better but only for skilled individuals not for recent grads or for people like me who have less than 1 years of experience and more than 1 year or unemployment...
One should point out that there's no real evidence of demand recovery in the NYC real estate market yet - commercial is still dead and residential is,well, worse... other than the anaemic Wall St bonus related cyclical increase.
Parts of the southwest are showing more signs of life.
@zen maker
I have more experience than you, but not 5 years of experience. My observation of the market is that employers are being really specific as to what they want now that they have a lot more people to choose from (ie X years of healthcare experience, X years of Revit experience, etc). And even though it is better now than then, I still think you are more likely to find a job if you have someone who will put your resume in front of the person who is hiring. I think this is hard to do as a young professional because I don't have as many connections, much less, employed connections.
@Urbanist
I think recovery is going to take years rather than months, but I haven't heard about large layoffs like there were a year ago year ago. I am hoping that since architecture got hit hard in the beginning that we will recuperate earlier than other professions.
It's curious Urbanist should say that there seems to be more signs of life in the Southwest when a good 75% of the job posts these days on Archinect are all for New York.
I'm more interested to see if people working in New York are making an acceptable salary. I would be willing to make the move but I am a little worried that I'm going to get hired in the 30-40k range and I can't imagine how anyone can make that work in New York with rent, loan payments, etc.
My comment related to market fundamentals for new construction, not to arch jobs. In the longterm, the amount of new Bdg activity will be the best indicator of arch jobs... not a count of arc jobs on arhinect based on a sampling of maybe 8 posts. NY will always account for a disproportionate number of new arch jobs just because of the size of the industry in this city and the fact that NY firms service clients globally.
Well I wouldn't count on the Southwest to have an abundance of work/construction anytime soon. There is currently so much vacant real-estate very little new construction is happening and what little there is the competition for those jobs is very fierce.
interestingly, nearly all of the new non-governmental (private sector development) work we're recently has been outside of the NE and much if it in socal. Nothing new going on the NY metro area other than municipal planning commissions.
The Southwest showing signs of life?!? Phoenix and Las Vegas are two of the biggest markets in the Southwest and quite possibly two of the hardest hit cities in the country. Both are over built in all sectors, have extremely high foreclosure rates and extremely high unemployment rates. Yes I know...everyone is hurting but the Southwest is dead....vacant homes....vacant condo towers...projects that went belly up in the middle of construction just sitting there....that is what we are dealing with out here. The other problem is that architecture firms out here don't do any international work and rarely even national work....most just rely on the local markets. So most firms out have cut at least 50% to 75% of their staff and some have simply closed up shop. The little bit of work out here is in the medical field and we are starting to see a sign of life with state school projects as a result of the stimulus.
arch
I'm referring to San Fran, San Diego and LA.
and Denver, which is doing well
LA? really? Must only be enough work to keep the few people left employed.
CA is Pacific, bro!
And Denver is barely in the Southwest.
Urbanist,
I usually don't classify those cities as part of the "southwest"...even though they are South and West, I agree with Montagneux...Pacific Coast.
On that note...things do seem to be picking up in LA and I know several architects that have steady employment there. They also tell me that it is getting better and they are finding more work. I don't think San Diego is showing much improvement and I can't speak for SF or Denver. I think it is safe to say the NY and LA will be the first to recover and both are showing signs that things are getting better. Cities like Phoenix and Vegas will be last and are years away from recovery.
While there are definitely an increasing number of job postings showing up in nyc, and there does seem to be a (slightly) renewed sense of optimism in some cases, the backlog of architects still looking for work that otis151 mentioned is still the biggest hurdle for the unemployed here.
I was also laid off at the tail end of 2008, and finally had my first legit interview (I have been scrapping by on freelance) last week after sending out hundreds of applications over the past year. The person interviewing me said they received about 200 responses, and the position is part-time and on a mac-based platform (something I was hoping would limit the number of applicants). I've heard other firms receiving double that number within a couple of days for basic entry level or intermediate positions. So despite the increasing number of openings, the amount of people looking for work is continuing to make it extremely difficult to find something.
I have to work with the numbers, archdevil
This gives you an idea on month-to-month's (1/31/09 cmopared with 1/31/10), price per square foot for residential sales:
Miami -42%
Chicago -23%
Phoenix -16%
New York -12%
Los Angeles -6%
San Francisco -4%
Charlotte NC +0%
Washington DC +0%
San Diego +2%
Seattle +9%
Denver +12%
Dallas +15%
Austin +18%
As you can see, whilst sales have picked up in NY, valuations are still in free-fall. LA and San Francisco, after experiencing >40% declines the previous year, are starting to stabilize. There are a very few bright spots, mostly due to constrained inventory following steep collapses the previous year (San Diego, Seattle) and a few places that have remained largely impervious (Charlotte, WDCm Denver and the Texas cities). I didn't mention Texas before because I like to pretend the state doesn't exist and therefore I tend to conveniently forget about it. Miami is deader than a doorknob and still dying, repeatedly and violently. It resurrect itself just to die all over again... and again, and again, and messier each time.
Thanks, Urbanist
Those are interesting numbers and I think that they are a decent indicator of the over all economic situations in each city but I really don't think they say much about the available architectural job opportunities in each city. While firms in some cities such as Phx or Denver rely heavily on the local markets...firms in cities like LA or NY cross national and international borders for work. It is not unusual for a NY or LA based firm to be hired over a local firm in Phx or Denver. Then they just hire a local firm to manage the project and provide oversight. So while the economies of certain cities may be improving...it doesn't mean they have any work or need to hire anyone. Statistics will be statistics but I am really just interested in your opinion on the job market in NYC. How do you feel about it....are you working...are your friends working? There are several optimistic people on this thread and that really does say a lot. I search multiple places for indicators and there are more and more architectural job opportunities coming out of NY each day.... you can't argue with that. Yes...there are more unemployed architects in NY as well but what woud you do if you were sitting unemployed in one of these completely dead cities? If you have a competitive resume and the means to get to the fight do you throw your hat in or do you just sit and continue sinking where you are?
@Archdevil
You can always try. A few people have mentioned this in the thread already, but you will have a lot more unemployed people competing for the same job as you. Maybe if you look at all of the architecture job listings there are 3-7 postings for positions in New York a day, but I am sure at least 100+ people are applying to each of them. It really helps if you have an "in." Expanding your scope will only make things better, but I wouldn't advise you to move here in the hopes of finding a job. If you have a friend's apartment you can stay at or can find a short term sublet, it may be worth checking out. I did this in Boston and Baltimore and decided from that that everywhere is screwed. Even though New York has a lot more things happening than where you may be, it is not that fun to be unemployed here unless you are willing to accumulate massive debts.
@Archdevil
You can always try. A few people have mentioned this in the thread already, but you will have a lot more unemployed people competing for the same job as you. Maybe if you look at all of the architecture job listings there are 3-7 postings for positions in New York a day, but I am sure at least 100+ people are applying to each of them. It really helps if you have an "in." Expanding your scope will only make things better, but I wouldn't advise you to move here in the hopes of finding a job. If you have a friend's apartment you can stay at or can find a short term sublet, it may be worth checking out. I did this in Boston and Baltimore and decided from that that everywhere is screwed. Even though New York has a lot more things happening than where you may be, it is not that fun to be unemployed here unless you are willing to accumulate massive debts.
Thanks, Sahar
I see what you are saying. Moving to NY wouldn't be too hard for me as I do have family and friends in the city. I visit frequently so I have given this a lot of thought. Staying with family and/or friends is always an option but I am almost 30 years old so it would have to be very temporary for the sake of my sanity and theirs. I figure I could probably sustain myself for 6 months before I had to have a job...of course that doesn't take into consideration the challenges of finding someone that will sublet to me while I don't have a job. So yeah...lots to think about and lots to take into consideration.
What kind of work are unemployed architects doing to pass the time? Is there much contract/freelance work available? Would you say it is difficult to find a menial job....something unrelated just to pay the bills?
@Archdevil
I didn't apply for menial jobs that were completely unrelated to the field. In my 9 months of unemployment after my lay off I tutored people who were trying to take the LEED exam before they changed it. I think you can get freelance work easier than a permanent job. If you are a renderer you can get freelance work even easier.
I go to the museum on free days, go to architecture events, and go on food adventures. I spend the rest of my time hiding in my cave and looking for competitions or jobs. I have a skewed idea of what other unemployed architects did since I think money wasn't an issue for a majority of my graduate school class.
I think you could find a 6 month sublet or a place that rents month to month. The month to month places are usually in less desirable locations, but I found a good one in Astoria. I have been here for 6 months but I the idea that I can cut and run. It relieves some of the pressure I had on me before when I had a roommate and a lease.
@sahar - thats true, connections are just as important as skill and experience, sometimes even more important... Couple of the people I worked with got jobs thru connections, because these firms didn't even post any ads, but somehow they got work there... You must be either a super-archi or just have a connection in a firm... tough times...
all things said, doesn't everybody get jobs through connections?
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